Guild Wars 2

Less of the blatant bias. Elementalist invulnerability still allows attunement swap and all of the goodies that come with. Warrior invulnerability still functions like the non crap version of Elixir-S.

Elixir-S was one of the things giving engineer class identity, there is no good reason to take it away.

Don’t forget distortion. Mesmer, Arenanet’s favorite didn’t get this nerf of course.

I do not use Elixir S anymore. It is now really weak as a stunbreaker. Ok it still removes a condtion if 409 is selected. But if feels like waiting 3sec until death. I moved to Elixir R.

This is the 4th time almost a complete build of mine has been nerfed, this time as a bunker. Yea as a bunker with elixir s and the one at 25% health with the medkit and bomb kit (any kit is applicable really) coupled with cloaking device and automated medical response, was truly the only reason I bunker reliably. It’s a different way of fighting where you mitigate damage and conditions through smart timing of your shields, blinds, raw healing, conditions, elite, unlimited vigor/swiftness, dodges (sigil of energy ftw) and more. With the crazy amount of immobilizes and IMO they are a ton stronger then stuns. We dont have the luxury of picking 3 cantrips that synergize perfectly with our builds that are also stun breakers. we primarily use elixir s for this. It protected us from being damage spiked to death, and if played smart your good for kitten near a full heal everytime you get around 25% health. You could get to 100 hp and if your good enough save yourself from certain death, it allowed for some seriously clutch plays (because we all know once you go down your dead). I don’t think people really understand how hard the elixir s and cloaking device nerfs seriously hurt bunker ability. It seems to me that they have certain ways and abilities/utilities they want us to use (1 kit only, use healing turret, use turrets period) and they are clueless

This is strictly tpvp relevant btw

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqel0pyX3zSyF1LJxoCdOkC8bYRPyflt8nCyF-ToAA1CtIKSVkrITRyisFNEZ+B

Swap in 409 for backpack regenerated when needed.

Copy and paste…RIP

vinceftw.5086:

Don’t forget distortion. Mesmer, Arenanet’s favorite didn’t get this nerf of course.

Yes and this is why confusion got nerfed by 50% and the best wvw build for mes got mega kitten And think about it this way, you could be a ranger this patch

Endure Pain is quite a bit different then Elixir S. Endure Pain does not avoid all the attacks and instead reduced direct damage to zero. That leaves them vulnerable to being applied with control effects and conditions. It also has a longer cooldown then Elixir S.

Honestly, Elixir S is still very good. The nerf was needed.

The nerf was completely unwarranted, the goal should not be to make everything the engineer has worse than another classes equivalent. Balance it’s achieved by keying every class do a few things best, that gives balance and class diversity. All the same means why bother having classes.

Seeing as warriors can heal, area heal/area cure conditions as well via shouts (thanks to the rune of the soldiers), i don’t really see the balance here. If they nerfed elixir S because of the added effects we had via traits, they should do the same with endure pain as well.
If they nerfed it because it was stronger than other effects, then make all of them equal.

Manuhell.2759:

Seeing as warriors can heal, area heal/area cure conditions as well via shouts (thanks to the rune of the soldiers), i don’t really see the balance here. If they nerfed elixir S because of the added effects we had via traits, they should do the same with endure pain as well.
If they nerfed it because it was stronger than other effects, then make all of them equal.

gotta say I agree, they shouldn’t have taken this away. What’s next, the shield block and the magnetic bubble no longer blocking damage from those types of attacks? It’s ridiculous that other classes can keep their op moves and not blink but engis have to give up theres. That’s not balance that’s bias.

Hell even a non-pvp player can see that one.

Being able to heal and cleanse conditions while not getting direct damage is quite more powerful than delaying your defeat by three seconds. Warriors can also get stability by various means anyway, and they’ll probably do it when needed.
Edit: well, the person i was replying to deleted the post, it would seem.

As has been stated above, Endure Pain and Elixir S are not the same thing. Besides, the logic that this stuff should be the same across classes is flawed. Balanced does not mean homogenized.

The Elixir S/Mistform change is fine, and claiming that it ruined any particular build is hyperbole.

They weren’t the same thing even before. Now it is simply a useless skill. Using it when you’ve got low hp means simply delaying the unavoidable and even if you would like to use it to avoid bursts…well, the enemy can just wait for the skill to go off and maul you after that. Since you can’t do anything during those 3s anyway.

But it’s not true that you can’t do anything during those three seconds. You can reposition, you can line of sight, your Endurance is refilling, and your other skills are coming off their cooldowns. Even if it’s completely untraited it’s still a stun break and three seconds of invulnerability; traited, it’s only better.

Before, you could pop Elixir S, use Elixir H (1s), drop Supply Crate (1s), and still eek out a Freeze Grenade (0.5s). All while being completely immune to damage. That’s over the top, and I’m having a hard time understanding how anyone could claim otherwise. If traited, some builds had two 3s windows like this in a very short span of time. That’s just crazy.

Maullus.1273:

But it’s not true that you can’t do anything during those three seconds. You can reposition, you can line of sight, your Endurance is refilling, and your other skills are coming off their cooldowns. Even if it’s completely untraited it’s still a stun break and three seconds of invulnerability; traited, it’s only better.

Well, that is supposing the enemies stay still, watching you while you go away.
What will reasonably happen is that they’ll simply follow and finish you when the elixir s effect finishes – and it is quite noticeable when it happens – before you can heal.

Maullus.1273:

Before, you could pop Elixir S, use Elixir H (1s), drop Supply Crate (1s), and still eek out a Freeze Grenade (0.5s). All while being completely immune to damage. That’s over the top, and I’m having a hard time understanding how anyone could claim otherwise. If traited, some builds had two 3s windows like this in a very short span of time. That’s just crazy.

A warrior can use endure pain (4s or 5s) and use any shout (instant) to area heal, area cleanse conditions and area buff allies(or other effects) if traited and equipped with the correct runes. While attacking.
Or he could use an utility to get stability, use the healing skill and summon the battle standard to ress and buff downed allies. And he still got some seconds to attack.
And he can do it two times as well .
Yet this is considered acceptable?

The point is Endure Pain is not immunity. You can still apply control effects and conditions to someone who is under Endure Pain. That means you could interrupt that healing skill or battle standard, while Elixir S and Mist Form made it uninterruptable.

Ayestes.1273:

The point is Endure Pain is not immunity. You can still apply control effects and conditions to someone who is under Endure Pain. That means you could interrupt that healing skill or battle standard, while Elixir S and Mist Form made it uninterruptable.

This. Well, sorta. The point of Endure Pain IS immunity, it’s just not as absolute.

Warrior’s Endure Pain is subject to CC. It just can’t take damage. In a game where the meta values damage far more than CC, it is easier to see which is more useful in a vacuum. If it were possible to take Endure Pain on an Engineer, I would definitely take it over Elixir S, because it allows me to do what I used to do with Elixir S, stay alive while fighting without regard for damage.

And please, don’t call for Warriors to get nerfs. That is the last thing the class needs right now and I don’t even play them.

Kalan.9705:

the goal should not be to make everything the engineer has worse than another classes equivalent.

But the goal is to beat up on Warriors who have it way worse than Engineers do in PvP/WvW right now.

Still: ele’s have it better than engineers I think, in general WvW or pvp use.
And we got nerfed on elixir S because they got nerfed.

It’s odd to see the reasoning go from ele’s to engineers, but if we pull it through from engineers to warriors, we suddenly are being unreasonable and comparing apples to oranges.

You know what I saw elixir S being most powerfull for? Video after video of engineer pvp?
An unstoppable stomper!
I actually wondered each time: how long are the devs going to allow unstoppable stomping?

The healing, or proccing of on heal runes, or the cleanses I personally see as less OP than unstoppable stomping.

Funny, seems that’s the one thing they consider ok about elixir S

Ayestes.1273:

The point is Endure Pain is not immunity. You can still apply control effects and conditions to someone who is under Endure Pain. That means you could interrupt that healing skill or battle standard, while Elixir S and Mist Form made it uninterruptable.

Can’t control if they’ve got stability, and they’ve got reliable means to get that. And shouts are instant anyway (1192+0.8*healing power area heal with the trait, clean a condition with the runes).

Kimbald.2697:

1)Still: ele’s have it better than engineers I think, in general WvW or pvp use. And we got nerfed on elixir S because they got nerfed. It’s odd to see the reasoning go from ele’s to engineers, but if we pull it through from engineers to warriors, we suddenly are being unreasonable and comparing apples to oranges.

2) You know what I saw elixir S being most powerfull for? Video after video of engineer pvp? An unstoppable stomper! I actually wondered each time: how long are the devs going to allow unstoppable stomping? The healing, or proccing of on heal runes, or the cleanses I personally see as less OP than unstoppable stomping. Funny, seems that’s the one thing they consider ok about elixir S

1) I don’t find it odd at all. And I don’t think you’re being “unreasonable”. I understand the reasoning, I just don’t really find it necessary to make it equivalent. Both skills allow for prevention of damage. Endure Pain allows access to your skills but doesn’t keep you safe from control effects. The other skill prevents Control effects as well but effectively inflicts a stronger version of Daze on you. Both have different benefits and drawbacks. Rather than apples to oranges, it’s more like comparing Frenzy to Haste. If I had the option between the two, I’d take the latter as well. If they nerf Endure Pain to lock out skills, it would be strictly worse than Elixir S. If they made it exactly the same as Elixir S… well, that would just make design seem really lazy. Why do three professions have the same prevention skill?

2) I agree with you here, but at the same time most Professions have at least one way to secure kills. Stability for Guardian/Warrior, Thief has blind and stealth, Elementalist has Mist Form, Mesmers distort, Necro… I actually don’t know what Necro or Ranger has. I come across them even less than Engineers. I’ve even seen FT Engineers use their #5 solely for the kill-securing blind.

Just on the stomping: I see a big difference between being able to stop one player from preventing the stomp (blind) or just those in melee (FT #5 blind, and simular mechanics… and being totally unstoppable no matter what anyone does. Not the downed, not his rezzers, not the zerg rolling over you can stop an engineer from stomping with elixir S.

Others have such abilities too, but I wouldn’t compare the more limited ones like a melee blind or stability (even though this one has very little counters when stomping, at least you could theoretically down him).

It’s not the most important discussion, but I was simply a bit surprised they let this aspect of elixir S be, while removing less outcome deciding mechanics.
Just an observation, not in the range of being broken or really OP.

Manuhell.2759:

Ayestes.1273:

The point is Endure Pain is not immunity. You can still apply control effects and conditions to someone who is under Endure Pain. That means you could interrupt that healing skill or battle standard, while Elixir S and Mist Form made it uninterruptable.

Can’t control if they’ve got stability, and they’ve got reliable means to get that. And shouts are instant anyway (1192+0.8*healing power area heal with the trait, clean a condition with the runes).

Stability is a separate thing entirely though. I thought we were comparing Elixir S to Endure Pain, not Elixir S to Endure Pain plus another Utility Skill. Stability is rather explicit in allowing you to activate anything while being protected from control effects.

As for Shouts, they can’t even be interrupted in the first place because they are instant. I don’t see how using them during Endure Pain makes much of a difference there as it doesn’t use up any time. Not to mention, Shout healing and cleansing is still rather low in comparison to many of the other Support variants out there.

I’m not really sure why you think Warriors are so great in this regard. I played one before ever coming to the Engineer, and frankly the Engineer has been far above the viability of a Warrior for a very long time. In my opinion, Engineers are still plenty better then Warriors in sPvP.

I do not agree with the Elixir S nerf and I think it was just that a nerf, not a fix to anything OP.

BUT Endure Pain is not the same and in the context of the Warrior and how it is used along with their other skills I think it fits very well and should not be balanced against Elixir S or any other skill.

2 Skills from different professions should never be balanced just solely off eachother but off how the skill itself acts with the profession and gameplay.

I don’t actually want a warrior nerf, I would just like to see a less inept double standards bias from the devs. Also les double standards from forum discussions, you can’t be comparing engineer to another class to justify (crappy) nerfs, and then complain about class comparison to criticise nerfs.

Personally I think each class should be judged as a whole, and on that basis nothing about engineer justifies ruining a class defining ability like Elixir-S.

Kalan.9705:

a class defining ability like Elixir-S.

This is ANOTHER question I want to ask. Why do so many people find Elixir-S class-defining? Kit Refinement most definitely was. It complemented an entire tree of playstyles around the mechanic that only the Engineer had and provided players with Utility, Support, and Damage. While Elixir S had wonderful utility, entertaining flavor for the profession, and I loved it just as much as the next user. I just wouldn’t define the class off of something like this.

Especially since Elementalist’s Mist Form is pretty much a direct equivalent to the skill. I mean, both of the skills were nerfed at the same time ensuring they stayed that way.

Well class defining because it’s what little of what’s left. Class defining pistols is gone. Class defining stability on juggernaut is gone. Class defining push-pull on flamer is gone. Class defining underwater grenades are gone. Class defining condition removal is gone. Class defining super elixirs are gone. Class defining multi-kit is gone. Class defining hundred nades is gone. Class defining bunker confusion builds are gone.

All we have left is elixirs, and those evil devtards are hard at work coming up with new ways to ruin those too.

Kalan.9705:

Well class defining because it’s what little of what’s left. 1)Class defining pistols is gone.
2)Class defining stability on juggernaut is gone.
3)Class defining push-pull on flamer is gone.
4)Class defining underwater grenades are gone.
5)Class defining condition removal is gone.
6)Class defining super elixirs are gone.
7)Class defining multi-kit is gone.
8)Class defining hundred nades is gone.
9)Class defining bunker confusion builds are gone.

All we have left is elixirs, and those evil devtards are hard at work coming up with new ways to ruin those too.

1)Pistols are still going strong with our ability to drop the widest array of conditions on players in the whole game without having to swap weapons.
2)But now you get MIGHT STACKS! (And I really hated the slow tradeoff, I wasn’t hitting anyone with the Flamethrower back then.)
3 and 4 and 6)I do miss this. Especially underwater grenades. Reaching Level 5 during the opening weekend, unlocking Grenade Kit first, going underwater… “Oh hey, Grenade Kit works underwat- Wait. WHY DO THEY GO SO FAST? This damage. I… I AM THE DAMAGE.” Never again. RIP in peace.
5)409 would like to have a word with you. So will the new Healing Turret (which supposedly cleansed only two conditions back before the patch anyway).
7)Multi-Kit isn’t dead… only Kit Refinement, which was probably the most Class Defining anything in the profession.
8)I’m not even mad.
9)Are they really? Was the hit to confusion really that hard? I haven’t tested.

Pistols have still never really recovered from the triple nerf early on, current pistol even before the 50% drop to static shot was pretty meh whatever.
Condition removal, well we’ve lost medpack 4 all, super elixir and flamethrower KR. Also I just don’t find the lock-in flamethrower good design at all.

Eh, I don’t like the nerf because it was aimed at eles using mist form to go back to 100% health using their heal + water attunement + regen but not so much the stun break (since d/d usually carries 2-3 of them), and elixir S was hit solely for consistency. Meanwhile, Engis simply don’t have that kind of burst healing that warranted the nerf for mist form. Elixir S worked as a stun break because you could pull off an action or 2 to get your enemy off your back, but now people can simply focus on keeping up with you and hitting afterwards. Might as well use elixir R now since at least you don’t get disoriented by the camera and won’t give your enemy time to refocus his burst on you in the 3 seconds you sit there invulnerable with nothing to do.

Is this thread serious or are you trolling? Are you aware that endure pain has a much higher cooldown, you can still die from all the conditions, you can still get CC’d and that it doesn’t secure stomps?

I’m going to have to play with elixir r tomorrow, elixir S felt like my one weakness in my new build I’m playing with. A few times I popped it to break a stun and get away only to die to conditions inside it bc I couldn’t cleanse.

Well if you think about it we have an even playing field now, they nerfed elixir s, mist form, and distortion. All invincibility skills that people used a lot in sPvP. You can still cap with mist form and elixir s, but you cannot use any skills while using it. Distortion made the mesmer immune to all hits, but they were still able to cap. Now if they use it they are invincible, they can still do damage, but they cannot cap while doing it. I completely understand and respect how players feel about elixir s’ nerf, but you have to realize it is basically another mist form. Elementalists cannot use any skills while using their mist form, so it balances both skills making them equal.

you’re reaching right now and it’s not cute

vinceftw.5086:

Don’t forget distortion. Mesmer, Arenanet’s favorite didn’t get this nerf of course.

-50% Confusion damage nerf. Maybe pick another class to pick on?

Nilix.2170:

2)But now you get MIGHT STACKS! (And I really hated the slow tradeoff, I wasn’t hitting anyone with the Flamethrower back then.)

The old one actually felt like a grandmaster trait, OTOH. It turned the Flamethrower into a defensive, stand-your-ground weapon.

Which was completely ok. If you picked Juggernaut, you did so because you wanted to defend with the FT, not attack with it.

Actually YourOwnFear, I just think it’s silly~stupid to !compare! Elixir S on such a narrow mindset-basis.

Classes are not comparable to a per-ability degree. The issue is not whether Elixir S is balanced compared to Endure Pain, Mist Form or Loaf of Bread.
The issue is whether Elixir S is balanced against the loadout and the trait-setup of the Engineer.

It isn’t, so it needs work. But not for “I envy that guy over there”-reasons.

Carighan.6758:

Actually YourOwnFear, I just think it’s silly~stupid to !compare! Elixir S on such a narrow mindset-basis.

Classes are not comparable to a per-ability degree. The issue is not whether Elixir S is balanced compared to Endure Pain, Mist Form or Loaf of Bread.
The issue is whether Elixir S is balanced against the loadout and the trait-setup of the Engineer.

It isn’t, so it needs work. But not for “I envy that guy over there”-reasons.

My post was clearly aimed at the posts defending the change because mist form was equally changed. I thought the first sentence covered that pretty well. The rest was an argument to those people in that mindset.

None of it changes the fact that 2 bunker builds that revolved around the 2 elixir S procs were killed. Even if you didn’t think those builds were viable didn’t mean others didn’t do well with them. Also I never heard anyone once complain about how those builds were op.

Kalan.9705:

Warrior invulnerability still functions like the non crap version of Elixir-S.

I wouldn’t trade even the post patch version of elixir s for endure pain.

You still get CC’d by stuff. You still eat conditions. You cannot use it to stomp/revive.

Usually people popping endure pain are in “OMG I’m gonna die” mode or some 100b noob who just popped bulls charge and frenzy and are now left sans utility skills.

YourOwnFear.2743:

You guys are silly if you think elixir S and mist form are equal. I just tested and I can pop mist form and aoe heal for 4.5k (attune water, dodge roll, regen tics, soothing mist tics) while aoe clearing 3 conditions. Can an engi do that?

So healing with med kit while using Elixir S is OP, but this isn’t?
GG devs.

How is there even complaining about the parity between elixir S and Endure pain? Endure Pain has a 90 second CD and can still be CC’d. My only issue is that elixir S doesn’t have the possibility of an early-breakout so it’s extremely easy to predict when to drop burst.

However, I do agree that elixir S shouldn’t be the same as mist form just because elementalists have a number of “passive” bonuses that still work. Plus, it just doesn’t make sense! Mini-us should be able to use stuff, air-y crap shouldn’t be able to!

Endure pain still gets conditions and cc, not comparable to elixir S.
/thread

ClassyBear.5078:

How is there even complaining about the parity between elixir S and Endure pain? Endure Pain has a 90 second CD and can still be CC’d. My only issue is that elixir S doesn’t have the possibility of an early-breakout so it’s extremely easy to predict when to drop burst. However, I do agree that elixir S shouldn’t be the same as mist form just because elementalists have a number of “passive” bonuses that still work. Plus, it just doesn’t make sense! Mini-us should be able to use stuff, air-y crap shouldn’t be able to!

Yup, this thread is pretty silly. The engineer has problems but it has nothing to do with endure pain being OP. I don’t think I’ve ever been solo killed by a warrior on my engineer in PvP before. Between static shot/shield skills/air blast/smoke vent, they can’t even get a hit in. Also endure pain has 90s CD as you said (whereas elixir S is 48s!), has no stability or protection from conditions and has no toolbelt.

But they’ve got many means of getting stability and coupled with endure pain (that has also got a longer duration than our elixir, even more if traited), it gives them quite the advantage, even in tactical terms. Whileas we can just pop the elixir and wait for it to end.
Our choices for unblockable healing were either to heal during elixir S or having a chance of getting stability by toss elixir S and healing during those seconds. Now we’ve got just the latter, that means, no reliable way of healing when truly needed.
And it isn’t like there weren’t other way to change it. They could have changed toss elixir S to give stability and some other random boon and give elixir S, say, 3s invulnerability and 3s or 4s stealth, so that they can’t simply come after you and wait for it to expire to kill you. And we would have got some reliable way of getting stability.

YourOwnFear.2743:

While other classes have a lot of room to make builds it looks to me that engi has 2 viable ways to go right now, SD or HGH.

I´m running static discharge in WvW and SD suffers from defensive abilities which made self-regulating defenses a must have, especially in zerg-fights (where protection-injection or cloaking device most times don´t make sense) – and where it´s a lot less usefull now.

Manuhell.2759:

But they’ve got many means of getting stability and coupled with endure pain (that has also got a longer duration than our elixir, even more if traited), it gives them quite the advantage, even in tactical terms. Whileas we can just pop the elixir and wait for it to end.
Our choices for unblockable healing were either to heal during elixir S or having a chance of getting stability by toss elixir S and healing during those seconds. Now we’ve got just the latter, that means, no reliable way of healing when truly needed.
And it isn’t like there weren’t other way to change it. They could have changed toss elixir S to give stability and some other random boon and give elixir S, say, 3s invulnerability and 3s or 4s stealth, so that they can’t simply come after you and wait for it to expire to kill you. And we would have got some reliable way of getting stability.

Warriors do not have “many means of getting stability”. War banner is of course very powerful and gives stability but has 240s CD. Other than that you have balanced stance which is not simultaneously usable with endure pain because it’s also a stance, and dolyak signet which has a cast time. Any warrior that brings endure pain + dolyak signet into PvP isn’t a threat to anyone.

Now I’m not saying the other aspects of the engineer are balanced, but I think the invulnerability skills from each class are actually pretty balanced. You can’t use mist form or endure pain to stomp a ranger/guardian/necro/engineer/warrior without getting interrupted.

A 60 second cd to stomp someone isn’t worth the spot. Take the stomp away and allow engi to heal like everyone else.

Elisir S is useless at the moment…well I throw it away…thanks Anet…

In this thread I’m pointing out how moronic it its to compare individual abilities and nerf on that basis, instead of comparing classes and how they operate as a whole. Mist form and elixir-S and endure pain don’t do the same things, don’t have the same traits and don’t need to be treated the same. Mist form its still pretty useful because of traits.

It’s like nerfing stealth not because of power or operation, but just nerfing stealth because not everyone has stealth, a moronic way to approach balance. Plus I hate the fact a load of UP bunker builds got crotch-punched this patch for zero good reason.

Promoting build diversity, my kitten

Just throwing my two cents in: I find the new change to Elixir S to be very detrimental to the Engineer profession. (In PvP)

-It is still useful to prevent Burst as it always has been and still breaks stuns, but against skilled players now it seems to be more of a disadvantage.

-Since it now locks your UI preventing the use of your Heal and utilities, it simply allows your opponent 3 seconds to set up their Rotation against you. This can especially be felt when using the trait Self-Regulating Defense, where in the middle of a life saving combo you are forced to sit and wait for it to expire.

-When a burst comes your way, usually from a handful of Heart seeking, and you activate Elixir S You are unable to open any distance from your adversary and the 3 seconds you bought off any game changing CD’s is hardly felt.

-At last, from a more realistic perspective Shrinking to ant size proportions would in fact cause you to inflict less damage to a full sized opponent if you were trying to physically hurt them. But when a Flamethrower is shrunk it is still a Flamethrower. With all the working components of a Flamethrowerand fire will still burn even if it is the tiniest ember. (The Flamethrower is just a single example) On the contrary assuming one could change their form into a “Vapor-like” or a Mist Form they would be unable to interact with anything outside of remaining sentient.

In Conclusion
-I think a reasonable change to Elixir S should be reverting it to its previous state. While simply reducing the range of all Utility Skills While under Elixir S’s effect. (I would say realistically we should keep our main hand weapons active but I feel this would be very overpowered. In my opinion Allowing only the use of tiny kits is a fair design seeing as with the global cool down it was only really possible to get around 1-2 seconds of use from a kit, even less if you used your time to Heal. Also while invulnerable you are unable to detonate your turrets or activate tool belt skills which costs your several valuable seconds from getting them on their Cool Down.)