Guild Wars 2

YourOwnFear.2743:

You guys are silly if you think elixir S and mist form are equal. I just tested and I can pop mist form and aoe heal for 4.5k (attune water, dodge roll, regen tics, soothing mist tics) while aoe clearing 3 conditions. Can an engi do that?

I think the crucial element to this is that you’re attuning to Water. Make it to where Mist Form cannot swap Attunements and this problem is solved.

But just for the sake of answering your question: an Engineer can clear two conditions with Toss/Elixir S while additionally granting 3 stacks of Might. Toss Elixir S also works as a Stability/Stealth buff.

It’s not a Heal but Mist Form also has a much longer cooldown.

YourOwnFear.2743:

Some of you people just white knight for the sake of it. Maybe you think it makes you look good or smarter but I just sit here and laugh at you. The fact of the matter is the engineer isn’t in a great place.

It’s not a fact. It’s your opinion.

In what little sPvP I play, I faceroll most classes with my Elixir-spec Conditioneer build. I’m not ranked. I rarely play tPvP. So if you want to dismiss this comment, go for it. But I come away with my own experiences, and I still find that Elixir S is an amazing skill to preemptively mitigate burst damage. Toss Elixir S also still gives 4 seconds of Stealth or 8 seconds of Stability. Given that it’s arguably the only way to get Stability out of the Engineer at this point, hard to figure out how slotting it on your bar is “useless.”

That’s not me being a “White Knight.” I gain nothing by refuting melodrama on a forum, except perhaps more wrinkles on my brow.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I think the crucial element to this is that you’re attuning to Water. Make it to where Mist Form cannot swap Attunements and this problem is solved.

Uh, that doesn’t solve anything, eles can still just swap attunements before mist form with that change and still get the attument heal + vigor/regen + soothing mist+ evasive arcana roll even with the utility lock. (also because d/d eles usually carry 3 cantrips they can create a 900 range gap or give themselves protection so they can use their heal afterwards without mist form allowing their enemy to adapt and burst them again)

Phineas Poe.3018:

But just for the sake of answering your question: an Engineer can clear two conditions with Toss/Elixir S while additionally granting 3 stacks of Might. Toss Elixir S also works as a Stability/Stealth buff.

It’s not a Heal but Mist Form also has a much longer cooldown.

3 stacks of might pales to the vigor/regen an ele gets popping mist form in terms of surviving and recovering from burst, and throw elixir S is a coin flip on whether it can let you escape or not, while also having its own cast time long enough to take 1-2 more hits since you can’t make any distance anymore without the CC all of our kits have at least one of (cripples with tool kit, chill with grenades, blind/immobilize/cripple with bombs, backwards leap with elixir gun, knockback with flamethrower.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I come away with my own experiences, and I still find that Elixir S is an amazing skill to preemptively mitigate burst damage.

Problem is that elixir S can not actively mitigate burst damage as a stun breaker as doesn’t let you effectively reposition or recover while giving your enemy 3 seconds to set up another burst. Endure Pain works as a stun breaker because you can recover and use skills to create distance, Mist Form works as a stun breaker because you can recover with all the water traits that buff it up for survivability, Lightning Flash/Shadowstep/Blink/Lightning Reflexes/Spectral Walk work as stun breakers because they put distance allowing you to recover, Armor of Earth/Save Yourselves!/Stand Your Ground! in general work as stun breakers because they give you defensive boons allowing you to recover, and with all of these you can recover right after the stun break and not 3 seconds afterwards while the enemy knows exactly where you are.

Phineas Poe.3018:

YourOwnFear.2743:

You guys are silly if you think elixir S and mist form are equal. I just tested and I can pop mist form and aoe heal for 4.5k (attune water, dodge roll, regen tics, soothing mist tics) while aoe clearing 3 conditions. Can an engi do that?

I think the crucial element to this is that you’re attuning to Water. Make it to where Mist Form cannot swap Attunements and this problem is solved.

But just for the sake of answering your question: an Engineer can clear two conditions with Toss/Elixir S while additionally granting 3 stacks of Might. Toss Elixir S also works as a Stability/Stealth buff.

It’s not a Heal but Mist Form also has a much longer cooldown.

YourOwnFear.2743:

Some of you people just white knight for the sake of it. Maybe you think it makes you look good or smarter but I just sit here and laugh at you. The fact of the matter is the engineer isn’t in a great place.

It’s not a fact. It’s your opinion.

In what little sPvP I play, I faceroll most classes with my Elixir-spec Conditioneer build. I’m not ranked. I rarely play tPvP. So if you want to dismiss this comment, go for it. But I come away with my own experiences, and I still find that Elixir S is an amazing skill to preemptively mitigate burst damage. Toss Elixir S also still gives 4 seconds of Stealth or 8 seconds of Stability. Given that it’s arguably the only way to get Stability out of the Engineer at this point, hard to figure out how slotting it on your bar is “useless.”

That’s not me being a “White Knight.” I gain nothing by refuting melodrama on a forum, except perhaps more wrinkles on my brow.

I love how you use a partial quote because a whole wall of text would have supported my argument that you cemented with your response. There are only 2 builds that do well right now, HGH/409 and SD. One of which is the exact spec you claim to run and face roll in. I also point out the devs mentioned they will be looking into nerfing both.

So you are correct elixir S is still useful for HGH/409 builds but I never said it wasn’t. I said its not enough utility for other specs now that we can’t heal in it.

Carighan.6758:

vinceftw.5086:

Don’t forget distortion. Mesmer, Arenanet’s favorite didn’t get this nerf of course.

-50% Confusion damage nerf. Maybe pick another class to pick on?

The fact remains that distortion still does not block your skills, like it should. The confusion nerf actually hits engineers harder than mesmers since mesmers still have multiple viable builds and are one of the strongest classes since the release of the game up until now? So no thanks Jeff, I will not pick another class to pick on.

I don’t agree with the damage nerf to confusion, it should have been that less things trigger it but still, it doesn’t hurt mesmers that much who still have 3 very viable builds. Or even more that I do not know off.

YourOwnFear.2743:

I love how you use a partial quote because a whole wall of text would have supported my argument that you cemented with your response. There are only 2 builds that do well right now, HGH/409 and SD. One of which is the exact spec you claim to run and face roll in. I also point out the devs mentioned they will be looking into nerfing both.

So you are correct elixir S is still useful for HGH/409 builds but I never said it wasn’t. I said its not enough utility for other specs now that we can’t heal in it.

It’s the best stunbreak we have acces to in any situation that ain’t a 1vs1, and even in a 1vs1, it’s an amazing stunbreak to soak up the worst burst that can be thrown at it! Elixir S was so OP before that I couldn’t justify run any other of our stun breaks, now it’s still an amazing tool I swap into when I see a 1vs2 coming, or when I feel like slacking, but at least some of the other stunbreaks is close to be on par! And I don’t run any of the two above builds, and we got way more then those two build “viable” anyway! Both in WvW, and tPvP from the Engineer’s I talk with there, bunkering appear to have gotten quite cool with the new healing Turret..

TLDR: Elixir S is still amazing, it will still se a lot of play, and it have allways been a to strong skilL! Stop the whine, the skill ain’t broken nor usless! You guys are as usual stuck in a very very narrow world, where everything crumple if someone poke to your toys

Amadeus.5687:

YourOwnFear.2743:

I love how you use a partial quote because a whole wall of text would have supported my argument that you cemented with your response. There are only 2 builds that do well right now, HGH/409 and SD. One of which is the exact spec you claim to run and face roll in. I also point out the devs mentioned they will be looking into nerfing both.

So you are correct elixir S is still useful for HGH/409 builds but I never said it wasn’t. I said its not enough utility for other specs now that we can’t heal in it.

It’s the best stunbreak we have acces to in any situation that ain’t a 1vs1, and even in a 1vs1, it’s an amazing stunbreak to soak up the worst burst that can be thrown at it! Elixir S was so OP before that I couldn’t justify run any other of our stun breaks, now it’s still an amazing tool I swap into when I see a 1vs2 coming, or when I feel like slacking, but at least some of the other stunbreaks is close to be on par! And I don’t run any of the two above builds, and we got way more then those two build “viable” anyway! Both in WvW, and tPvP from the Engineer’s I talk with there, bunkering appear to have gotten quite cool with the new healing Turret..

TLDR: Elixir S is still amazing, it will still se a lot of play, and it have allways been a to strong skilL! Stop the whine, the skill ain’t broken nor usless! You guys are as usual stuck in a very very narrow world, where everything crumple if someone poke to your toys

There are 100s of builds you can make and viably play against random people who are playing the same but against players who min-max there are 2-3 viable trait routes right now. You can beat a bad person with no traits and random gear missing. Does that make it viable?

Also Elixer R, Elixer U and Utility goggles are much better stun breaks to me. They don’t lock you out of action for 3 seconds and provide useful actives that allow you to keep up pressure(if your running you already lost). Elixer R gives you 2 dodges back so you can get your evade on without being stuck waiting 3 seconds to do something if you see an opening. If I can’t heal through the conditions on me in S then I don’t care to take it only for a stealth or stability (non hgh/409 build).

You know, when all is said and done about Elixir S, the main thing they failed to do this patch is:

when nerfing Elixir S, they should have buffed the gadgets. ..
Those have stunbreakers but they need work.
The devs even ADMITTED the gadgets need improvement.

This was the time to improve them: when they nerfed Elixir S somewhat in utility.

Not doing this at this moment was a bad call. Engineers can’t be hearing ‘later’ on everything.
Gadgets should have happened now.

Than we would have lost some, but gained some for other builds… engineers need more of that.
Things like Healing Turret to open up more options.
Gadgets were perfect for this patch.

Yukabacera.2307:

Phineas Poe.3018:

I think the crucial element to this is that you’re attuning to Water. Make it to where Mist Form cannot swap Attunements and this problem is solved.

Uh, that doesn’t solve anything, eles can still just swap attunements before mist form with that change and still get the attument heal + vigor/regen + soothing mist+ evasive arcana roll even with the utility lock. (also because d/d eles usually carry 3 cantrips they can create a 900 range gap or give themselves protection so they can use their heal afterwards without mist form allowing their enemy to adapt and burst them again)

Phineas Poe.3018:

But just for the sake of answering your question: an Engineer can clear two conditions with Toss/Elixir S while additionally granting 3 stacks of Might. Toss Elixir S also works as a Stability/Stealth buff.

It’s not a Heal but Mist Form also has a much longer cooldown.

3 stacks of might pales to the vigor/regen an ele gets popping mist form in terms of surviving and recovering from burst, and throw elixir S is a coin flip on whether it can let you escape or not, while also having its own cast time long enough to take 1-2 more hits since you can’t make any distance anymore without the CC all of our kits have at least one of (cripples with tool kit, chill with grenades, blind/immobilize/cripple with bombs, backwards leap with elixir gun, knockback with flamethrower.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I come away with my own experiences, and I still find that Elixir S is an amazing skill to preemptively mitigate burst damage.

Problem is that elixir S can not actively mitigate burst damage as a stun breaker as doesn’t let you effectively reposition or recover while giving your enemy 3 seconds to set up another burst. Endure Pain works as a stun breaker because you can recover and use skills to create distance, Mist Form works as a stun breaker because you can recover with all the water traits that buff it up for survivability, Lightning Flash/Shadowstep/Blink/Lightning Reflexes/Spectral Walk work as stun breakers because they put distance allowing you to recover, Armor of Earth/Save Yourselves!/Stand Your Ground! in general work as stun breakers because they give you defensive boons allowing you to recover, and with all of these you can recover right after the stun break and not 3 seconds afterwards while the enemy knows exactly where you are.

This. Well said.

Gotta post a correction here. I said ele can cleans 3 conditions in mist form and I was wrong. They can aoe cleanse 3 but self cleanse 4 because the act of entering mist form adds regen when speced so cleanses when speced.

Kimbald.2697:

You know, when all is said and done about Elixir S, the main thing they failed to do this patch is:

when nerfing Elixir S, they should have buffed the gadgets. ..
Those have stunbreakers but they need work.
The devs even ADMITTED the gadgets need improvement.

This was the time to improve them: when they nerfed Elixir S somewhat in utility.

Not doing this at this moment was a bad call. Engineers can’t be hearing ‘later’ on everything.
Gadgets should have happened now.

Than we would have lost some, but gained some for other builds… engineers need more of that.
Things like Healing Turret to open up more options.
Gadgets were perfect for this patch.

+1

Exactly this.

vinceftw.5086:

Don’t forget distortion. Mesmer, Arenanet’s favorite didn’t get this nerf of course.

Distortion is on a 60-second cooldown (~45 with 30 points in a trait line), requires at least one clone to trigger at all if you’re not traited for IP (30 point cost) and lasts for a maximum of four seconds, during which time all clones are shattered solely for the distortion effect. It also does not break stun or prevent condi damage (it does prevent incoming stuns, though).

Elixir S always lasts for three seconds, acts as a stun-breaker, can be traited for 10 points in Elixirs to work on a 48-second cooldown and the immunity works the same as for Distortion or Endure Pain. It now prevents one from using #6/util skills.

The two are not miles apart and cater to different play styles. Elixir S has a better immediate payoff and is more consistent, but comes at the cost of a slightly less potent invuln and a temporary skill lock. Distortion requires more sacrifice from the player and has a lower basic effect, with a higher potential performance cap (an extra second over Elixir S when traited for IP; no skill lock).

Trying to compare or balance skills across different professions is useless and should not be done at all.

There are a lot of things professions can do better than others and some that no other professions can do at all. (Portals)

The Elixir S nerf seems to be much more a blanket nerf that they added to just make it the same as a similar skill. The Devs did not go into any great depth of detail to explain the change because there wasn’t any to go into.

They just stated that Elixir S was a powerful disengage tool and since it could also be used for stomping they felt that it should be nerfed.
There was no explanation or great detail given about how the skill fits(doesn’t fit) with the rest of the Engineer profession as opposed to Mist Form and other similar skills, because there is no explanation besides they were just making 2 similar skills equal to each other on paper.

One of the interviewers brought up the point that now Elixir S will be a very obvious visual queue that we used a Stunbreaker and enemies will just simply wait and time their attack for right after we pop out. You could tell by the simple reaction of the Devs that they hadn’t really thought about that and don’t really care, “you could just use a dodge afterwards” was the response given.

I personally think that there should be NO balance or skill changes until the rather extensive bug list for each profession is brought down to less bullet points.
Unless something is SO powerful that there is no counter it should just be left alone until other bug, glitches and flaws are addressed.
Otherwise how will you ever know how balanced it is if everything isn’t working!

Yukabacera.2307:

3 stacks of might pales to the vigor/regen an ele gets popping mist form in terms of surviving and recovering from burst, and throw elixir S is a coin flip on whether it can let you escape or not, while also having its own cast time long enough to take 1-2 more hits since you can’t make any distance anymore without the CC all of our kits have at least one of (cripples with tool kit, chill with grenades, blind/immobilize/cripple with bombs, backwards leap with elixir gun, knockback with flamethrower.

You’re leapfrogging a rebuttal by bringing in “issues” outside of this discussion.

Engineer suffers from a lack of gap creators unless you wield kits—yes. Thus an Elixir-spec Engineer is not going to have very many—yes. But I’m not exactly sure how any of that has to do with the Elixir S nerf. This has always been the case, yet Elixir-spec Engineer was considered one of the most powerful tPvP builds across all classes before this patch—and even still.

And Engineers already have access to permanent Regeneration and Vigor with the right trait and skill selection. They also have access to consistent, passive Protection application through traits. Comparing Engineer to Elementalist is a crapshoot, because you’re inevitably going to cherrypick something that doesn’t translate easily to other classes.

Endure Pain =/= Elixir S =/= Mist Form

They nerfed both Elixir S and Mist Form because, like I said here or in another thread, they fall under the same skill category: a stunbreaker that provides invulnerability/immunity to CC. As such, ANet believes that these skills should limit what you can do while immune/invulnerable.

Elementalists apparently have a workaround, and we don’t. I can see how that is an issue to some people, but that doesn’t automatically mean that we should be directly comparing how certain skills work for some classes while ignoring the entire situation or its alternatives, or suggesting that because Elementalists get something that we should too. We already have perma Swiftness and Vigor in combat. We already have two traits on separate cooldowns that grant Protection. We already have 12 seconds of immunity every 48 slotting the Tool Kit and Elixir S on your bar.

What the eff more do you want?

Engineers had no trouble surviving before this patch, and they haven’t after it.

Yukabacera.2307:

Endure Pain works as a stun breaker because you can recover and use skills to create distance,

I know on the Engineer forum every problem we have is magnified by a thousand while every little good thing other classes have is treated like the greatest thing on Earth, but Endure Pain does not “work as a stunbreaker” as well as you think it does.

Most Warriors use it in conjunction with Frenzy to burst down targets—both in PvE and PvP. It is not used as a gap creator. I really have to ask: do you actually play a Warrior? A Warrior who tries to run away from a fight is a dead Warrior, because like Guardian they will fail 9 times out of 10 when the battle goes outside melee range, and Warriors do not have the plethora of projectile reflects that Guardian does.

And still you’re basing your assumption on people using all those traits and utilities.
Cause by ourself we have no reliable way of getting protection (elixir H/toss elixir H gives it randomly, after all).As far as perma vigor/swiftness, it requires you to switch a kit every 5 seconds (thus losing some time in the process). And three of those traits are in the alchemy line anyway – getting all of them means not getting hgh. I doubt somebody really does it. Even then, you’re spending all your traits and two utility slots in order to be survivable. Having at least that survivability is a given (and while we’ve got 12 seconds of immunity, that also means that you can’t attack 1/4 of the time). But we shouldn’t be supposed to lack survivability unless we take all those traits, and neither our skills are supposed to be crappy unless we take all their associated traits.
Anyway, our actual problem is exactly what you’re describing with endure pain: you can’t flee anyway cause you would die, and so you attack, trying to down the enemy before the immunity ends. With the elixir S change, especially due of it being very noticeable when used, we can just delay our death by three seconds. No one is stopping enemies from coming after us, especially since they already know we can’t do anything in that form. Any smart enemy will just wait for us to be damageable again – and again, you can easily notice it when it happens.
If they wanted us to use it as an escape tool, they should have done something like giving both invulnerability and stealth, so that people can’t see where we are fleeing (thus giving us some precious seconds after it ends, while the enemy is still searching for us, to heal ourselves). As far as the current skill go, it is just a sign telling the enemy “kill me after this ends”.

Wolf.5816:

In Conclusion
-I think a reasonable change to Elixir S should be reverting it to its previous state. While simply reducing the range of all Utility Skills While under Elixir S’s effect. (I would say realistically we should keep our main hand weapons active but I feel this would be very overpowered. In my opinion Allowing only the use of tiny kits is a fair design seeing as with the global cool down it was only really possible to get around 1-2 seconds of use from a kit, even less if you used your time to Heal. Also while invulnerable you are unable to detonate your turrets or activate tool belt skills which costs your several valuable seconds from getting them on their Cool Down.)

I like this idea, Although I think a 66% damage reduction + 50% range reduction while smaller seems fair. That way you can still heal, throw some nades, etc.

shimmerless.4560:

vinceftw.5086:

Don’t forget distortion. Mesmer, Arenanet’s favorite didn’t get this nerf of course.

Distortion is on a 60-second cooldown (~45 with 30 points in a trait line), requires at least one clone to trigger at all if you’re not traited for IP (30 point cost) and lasts for a maximum of four seconds, during which time all clones are shattered solely for the distortion effect. It also does not break stun or prevent condi damage (it does prevent incoming stuns, though).

Elixir S always lasts for three seconds, acts as a stun-breaker, can be traited for 10 points in Elixirs to work on a 48-second cooldown and the immunity works the same as for Distortion or Endure Pain. It now prevents one from using #6/util skills.

The two are not miles apart and cater to different play styles. Elixir S has a better immediate payoff and is more consistent, but comes at the cost of a slightly less potent invuln and a temporary skill lock. Distortion requires more sacrifice from the player and has a lower basic effect, with a higher potential performance cap (an extra second over Elixir S when traited for IP; no skill lock).

Let’s not forget that distortion can be traited to refresh when you hit 50% health, and be refreshed manually with a signet. I personally have never had a shortage of clones when running a shatter build, so it’s not much sacrifice, it’s just used to reduce incoming damage until your next burst rotation is ready.

This nerf was illogical and unfair. I gave up Elixir S and the trait which drinks it automatically. Elixir S drink at 30% health interrupts whatever you are doing and postpone your death by 3 seconds.

Manuhell.2759:

And still you’re basing your assumption on people using all those traits and utilities.

I don’t see how that’s unfair.

You’re all basing your assumptions that an Elementalist is going to attune Water and trait for Evasive Arcana. You all assume that a Warrior is going to have Dolyak Signet/Balanced Stance on their bar for Stability.

You guys say X class has this, this, this, and this … but they don’t get any of that passively. They have to trait/gear/slot it. I’m suggesting we have very much the same options.

Why do threads like this get so much attention? The change was needed and 95% of the engi community realizes this, but the 5% take to the forums and cry. When everyone playing a class is taking a utility skill 100% of the time, something is wrong and it needs to be toned down, or equivalents scaled up. In this case, other stun breaks work very well and elixir S gave access to more utility than it needed to.

Instead of crying over a nerf, suggest buffs to things that work and bump threads that report bugs, or interesting changes.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

And still you’re basing your assumption on people using all those traits and utilities.

I don’t see how that’s unfair.

You’re all basing your assumptions that an Elementalist is going to attune Water and trait for Evasive Arcana. You all assume that a Warrior is going to have Dolyak Signet/Balanced Stance on their bar for Stability.

You guys say X class has this, this, this, and this … but they don’t get any of that passively. They have to trait/gear/slot it. I’m suggesting we have very much the same options.

But you basically have to make an entire build out of it. Your example used all the trait slots that we have got and two out of three utility slots. Endure pain has quite a better degree of versatility, whatever build you’re using.
On the other side, we can’t do much with that elixir s. Any smart player will avoid using bursts when he see us shrinking. Oh, sure, you may fool some warrior using hundred blades…and then? Sure, we’ve got 3 seconds during the while our cooldowns get refreshed, but that’s true for our opponents too. It doesn’t change the situation for us anyway. Just a simple 3s delay with an easily noticeable activation and ending.
There is no point on using it beside stomping, basically. It doesn’t give you means to escape. It doesn’t give you means to defeat your opponent before he can do the same. It doesn’t even give you a positional advantage toward him, since he can see perfectly where are you going.
As i said, if they don’t want the engineer to attack or heal while invulnerable, the solution is simple: 3s invulnerability + stealth. You still can’t attack, but the enemy can’t follow you. And if you’ve been able to fool your opponent, you can then heal yourself in those few seconds where the enemy is searching for you.

Manuhell.2759:

But you basically have to make an entire build out of it. Your example used all the trait slots that we have got and two out of three utility slots. Endure pain has quite a better degree of versatility, whatever build you’re using.

And you’re suggesting that Elementalists abusing Mist Form aren’t making an entire build out of that? Put 30 points in both Fire and Air and tell me that this is still an issue.

To get the performance out of Endure Pain like you guys suggest, you have to just as significantly trait and build around it. Without Stability, Endure Pain is not an “escape option” or a “gap creator.” It’s a workaround Frenzy’s 25% increase in damage taken.

I’ve asked this question already and no one answered it: Do any of you actually have any experience playing a Warrior?

Manuhell.2759:

On the other side, we can’t do much with that elixir s.

The problem is every one of us is trying to directly compare skills from other classes. The way you make it sound is you want 8 homogeneous classes that look different and play the same. Elixir S is a team skill. You use it to peel off yourself and buy time for your team to help you. Toss elixir S allows you to get crucial stomps and revives.

It cannot be directly compared to endure pain. Also, can’t condition be applied during endure pain?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

But you basically have to make an entire build out of it. Your example used all the trait slots that we have got and two out of three utility slots. Endure pain has quite a better degree of versatility, whatever build you’re using.

And you’re suggesting that Elementalists abusing Mist Form aren’t making an entire build out of that? Put 30 points in both Fire and Air and tell me that this is still an issue.

To get the performance out of Endure Pain like you guys suggest, you have to just as significantly trait and build around it. Without Stability, Endure Pain is not an “escape option” or a “gap creator.” It’s a workaround Frenzy’s 25% increase in damage taken.

I’ve asked this question already and no one answered it: Do any of you actually have any experience playing a Warrior?

I have. And that’s exactly why i’m talking about endure pain. If you’ve got a shout build, you can use them instantly – thus you don’t even need stability – to heal and cleanse conditions. You can directly attack your opponents, eventually using frenzy as well, to mince them before endure pain ends. You can use stability or fear and do whatever you need, be it ress downed people (especially via banner) or/and heal with the healing skill.
Basically, it is versatile. That exact thing that our elixir s lacks now.

Skewjo.9243:

Manuhell.2759:

On the other side, we can’t do much with that elixir s.

The problem is every one of us is trying to directly compare skills from other classes. The way you make it sound is you want 8 homogeneous classes that look different and play the same. Elixir S is a team skill. You use it to peel off yourself and buy time for your team to help you. Toss elixir S allows you to get crucial stomps and revives.

It cannot be directly compared to endure pain. Also, can’t condition be applied during endure pain?

First of all, Toss elixir S doesn’t allow anything. You’ve got a chance to get what you need, and that’s exactly the problem with our rng skills. Stealth and stability aren’t interchangeable, after all.
Second, we’ve been nerfed exactly because devs compared our skill with elementalists’ mist form. Third, if a skill with 60/48s cooldown has the only use to buy me 3 seconds, i would rather take something else entirely. Especially since i’m buying time for the opponents as well, it isn’t like they stay there waiting, and i’m not damaging them in any way during that time as well. And they can easily follow the engineer anyway, so it isn’t like you peel them away.
Making them homogenuous? If they haven’t got any other way to make those skill useful, it could be a way. Cause as it stays now, Elixir S is near useless beside for stomping. I said it above, if they don’t want us to attack, make it give invulnerability and stealth. So that while you can’t attack, you can still position yourself tactically. And eventually, heal yourself.
It would be different from the other ones, but still useful.

It is really important to compare just how much most elementalists can still do with the mist form via dodges and healing, warriors can do during endure pain, and mesmers can do during distortion.

This one is a bad change, it needs tweaks so Elixir-S isn’t a total shut-down, and anyone white knighting for it just because that’s their default raison d’etre for spending time on the forums, hasn’t looked at the situation impartially.

Throw Elixir S is RNG so it doesn’t always secure stomps at all.
You could get Stealth when trying to spike a Guardian and get knocked back or you could get Stability when spiking an Ele/Thief/Mesmer just to have them move when Stealth might have tricked them or you get burnt down by his teammates because you are visible.

You could also get Stability when trying to avoid focus and die where Stealth would have saved you or vice versa.

If everyone is going to continue talking about every aspect of every skill when you are specced in every different way they should stop leaving out ALL the pros and cons just because they don’t support the argument.

Did anyone bother to mention that when you are under Elixir S you lose your weapon stats and sigils? So these OP “free” hits you could get by switching to your kit came at the cost of X Power, X Condition Duration, 5% Dmg and X Sigil Stacks?(or w/e your weapons have)
(this still happens btw)

Considering Anet all but agrees that we NEED to have a Kit equipped and since they are now trying to push for Turrets, that is 2 utility slots taken up just for the Kit and Turret, 2 Turrets!? all of them taken.
Kits nor Turrets have Stunbreakers and besides EG #4 Kits also lack any type of quick movement ground covering mobility skills provided to other professions.

So it seems to me that having an “All-in-One” type of Stunbreaker/offensive/defensive survival tool is perfectly fitted to the profession that has a lot of “All-in-One” type skills.

Lastly the way you all pick apart each others arguments so you can only respond to things out of context makes you really sound like a bunch of politicians.
And any good politician would know that you never agree that it was okay to take something away even if you feel it was justified, that’s how more things get taken away.

So good job to all the forum warriors spending so much time agreeing with Anet’s really good decision to change something that has been there since release because they just now decided it doesn’t really work how they intended. You and Anet both sound like you really know what you are talking about.

And we will all thank you next month when SD gets a ICD and HGH gets a stack limit, gimping some of the last familiar gameplay the Profession has left.

Not everyone thinks its so fun to constantly have to change around the way they play because the Devs decide to make giant changes without proper testing (test server!)

I think some players just really want to be the last handful of masochists playing engineer by themselves.

Secondly I find it bizarre how some folks just blindly support A-net on everything no matter what.

99% of the builds affected by the elixir-S nerf needed a buff, and continue to wait (seemingly endlessly) for buffs, that’s the bottom line and that’s a big part of what made it a moronic change.

I need some time away from the game after this Elixir S change, it is obvious that the ANet devs are not paying attention to real game play or anyone outside of sPvP.

I was thinking of playing another profession, but I don’t think I am interested in that at the moment. A good deal of my build was built around elixir S, and the heal turret was the only turret I ever used.

But ANet won’t care, because they already have my money. Good luck y’all.

Kalan.9705:

I find it bizarre how some folks just blindly support A-net on everything no matter what.

I don’t blindly support ArenaNet on everything.

I dislike that they changed Kit Refinement. A lot.
I dislike that they nerfed Incendiary Powder.
I dislike that ANet’s idea of “buffing” the Flamethrower was adding to its already ridiculous trait dependency.
I dislike that ANet believes that spending 75 gold in Black Lion Keys and not getting a Fused Weapon Ticket is even remotely acceptable.
I dislike that ANet thinks that Thief needed a buff in sPvP.
I especially dislike that ANet will put out a new build to fix Thief bugs off the cuff but Symbol of Swiftness and Scope are still effing buggy.

So yeah, in the grand scheme of things—excuse me if I don’t really see the issue in not having your Ghetto Shelter anymore. It’s still a stunbreaker. It’s still 3 seconds of invulnerability. It still gives Stability. It still gives Stealth. It still cures conditions. It still gives Might.

It’s still worth using.

John Widdin.9618:

shimmerless.4560:

vinceftw.5086:

Don’t forget distortion. Mesmer, Arenanet’s favorite didn’t get this nerf of course.

Distortion is on a 60-second cooldown (~45 with 30 points in a trait line), requires at least one clone to trigger at all if you’re not traited for IP (30 point cost) and lasts for a maximum of four seconds, during which time all clones are shattered solely for the distortion effect. It also does not break stun or prevent condi damage (it does prevent incoming stuns, though).

Elixir S always lasts for three seconds, acts as a stun-breaker, can be traited for 10 points in Elixirs to work on a 48-second cooldown and the immunity works the same as for Distortion or Endure Pain. It now prevents one from using #6/util skills.

The two are not miles apart and cater to different play styles. Elixir S has a better immediate payoff and is more consistent, but comes at the cost of a slightly less potent invuln and a temporary skill lock. Distortion requires more sacrifice from the player and has a lower basic effect, with a higher potential performance cap (an extra second over Elixir S when traited for IP; no skill lock).

Let’s not forget that distortion can be traited to refresh when you hit 50% health, and be refreshed manually with a signet. I personally have never had a shortage of clones when running a shatter build, so it’s not much sacrifice, it’s just used to reduce incoming damage until your next burst rotation is ready.

If you’re running shatter then a hefty chunk of your damage output is being sacrificed, incl. your overall strength if you’re taking common traits like iDefense or Compounding Power.

It’s not the right word since really it’s just playing defensively, but my point is that even if you’re running DE and Mirror Images you’re going to reach a point where you have to choose what your clones are for until you can get more out. If it were as simple as smashing shatters as fast as clones come out then every shatter would constantly be on cooldown, which anyone will tell you is rarely the case.