Guild Wars 2

in my opinion the random effects of toss elixir abilities and elixir X should be reworked. random effects is a no go in pvp and is mostly gimmick for pve. basically all the elixirs with random effects have a chance to frustrate the player in situations where you need certain effects but get something else not to mention that you will never take most of the elixirs if you do not go deep into alchemy tree to make them reliable via condition removal or might application. elixir H is also the by far the weakest healing skill of an engineer thus it actually deserves a change to the toss ability.

the toss elixir C is the best example how all the toss abilities should look like: it removes one condition and gives you a random boon. in short it has one useful effect that is always the same and one random effect. this could be done for all random elixir abilities, e.g. toss elixir H could give regeneration for 4 seconds and some other random effect for 10 seconds.

elixir X also deserves a change. it is subpar to the supply crate, not to mention that only power builds profit from the transformation and condition builds are left out. I would follow the same rule as above: one effect that is always the same and something random.

this change would have two major effects:
1. you add some reliability to them which is great for competitive play
2. people could also use some of them without going deep into alchemy traits.

Would be better if affect was conditional.
Like one affect when >50% hp and another affect when <50% hp.
Something simple that can be used strategically.
I so far hate elixirs more than any other skill type in the game because of how I like strategy.

I fully agree that the randomness needs to go.
As it is it’s impossible to skillfully use thrown elixirs for their boons / effects.
With traits you can reliably add condition removal / might to them but at that point they might as well all be the same if you use them for these effects only.

Personally i think that elixir B is the worst offender.
You never know what you might get … offensive buff, defensive buff, utility buff? Who knows!
It’s simply not possible to judge when the right moment is to use them because you never know what they’ll do.

It wouldn’t as bad if the random effects were similar, but as it is you can end up with boons that are useless to you in a specific situation. H is a great example of this, since has the regen boon that makes it slightly inferior to the healing turret, but it could also give you swiftness which is not only pretty worthless in an enclosed space, but is something that you are guaranteed to get from the med kit every 20 seconds anyway.

I agree, so far, I am pretty much avoiding all elixirs simply because I find them not bringing much into the fighting side of things.
It’s sort of equivalent to spray and pray.
Just when you want invis, you manage to get larger!!

elixirs can cure condition and give 20 secs might with traits, making toss useful even with it’s random effects.

you said that you need to take alchemy traits for those but maybe it was intended that elixirs are for those who spends points on alchemy trait line.

elixir H for example is weak compare to other healing skill like you said, but it benefits from alchemy traits, making it a very good choice for alchemy builds.

mOOnRaBBiT.8913:

elixirs can cure condition and give 20 secs might with traits, making toss useful even with it’s random effects.

you said that you need to take alchemy traits for those but maybe it was intended that elixirs are for those who spends points on alchemy trait line.

elixir H for example is weak compare to other healing skill like you said, but it benefits from alchemy traits, making it a very good choice for alchemy builds.

you can go deep into alchemy and take not a even single trait that improve elixirs. you will never take the elixirs for their effects but the ability of the trait that allows us to remove conditions. abilites should be useful even without traits or do you know any other ability from other classes that work like that?

and BTW elixir H is still inferior then both of the other healing skills even when you go deep into alchemy tree. why? 1. the other options have higher health gain 2. lower cooldown without having to trait for it (not to mention that bandage self can be traited for 15s cooldown and healing turret has a 15s cooldown when you use it properly) 3. because the other 2 options already have the ability to remove conditions.

some alchemy traits are also buggy and dont work correctly but that is not the point. the point is that the engineer is designed around his utility skills that also provide toolbelt skills to compensate him for the lack of weapon options BUT the toolbelt skills of the elixirs are only gimmick when you dont go deep into alchemy and specific traits and random effects are pointless for a game with PVP. furthermore the elixir H and X are inferior to other options you have even if you go deep into alchemy.

i think i have clearly said that elixirs might have been intended to those who spend points in alchemy trait line.

traits like cleaning formula 409 and HGH is an improvement to your elixirs. it’s up to you by the way if you choose to not take traits that improve elixirs and still use elixirs. btw getting 30 alchemy improves your elixirs.

elixirs B, U, R, S and C are useful without traits.

elixir H can give you a more mobile condition remover. if use on yourself, it can give 2 stacks of 20 seconds might and can add up to additional +3% damage.

“toolbelt skills to compensate him for the lack of weapon options”
kits occupy skill slots for changing kits, elixirs occupy skill slots for what? for the skill itself.

mOOnRaBBiT.8913:

i think i have clearly said that elixirs might have been intended to those who spend points in alchemy trait line.

traits like cleaning formula 409 and HGH is an improvement to your elixirs. it’s up to you by the way if you choose to not take traits that improve elixirs and still use elixirs. btw getting 30 alchemy improves your elixirs.

elixir H can give you a more mobile condition remover. if use on yourself, it can give 2 stacks of 20 seconds might and can add up to additional +3% damage.

“toolbelt skills to compensate him for the lack of weapon options”
kits occupy skill slots for changing kits, elixirs occupy skill slots for what? for the skill itself.

repeating always the same over and over and writing what certain abilites do without any context does not make your “argument” valid -.- according to you toss elixirs are fine because I can trait for them to make them useful? so when I want to use them properly I have to wait till atleast lvl 40 for the master trait? you write something about the elixir utility skills when the thread is about the toss elixir TOOLBELT skills random effect and elixir X elite skill. your last sentence is a good indication and everyone can see that you have not really read anything and have no real point, you just post for the sake of posting something. btw toolbelt skills have nothing to do with with weapon or bundle skills your receive from kits.

I just think Engineer needs some tweaking.
Right now it feels rough around the edges.
I’ve played an elementalist to 80 and it’s so much more polished than engineer.

I agree.

Teldo had some good ideas on how to fix these that involved skill.

Lyuben.2613:

I agree.

Teldo had some good ideas on how to fix these that involved skill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyKKBcfaT0I

Teldo would have the best honest opinion. His dedication to the profession has impressed me since Beta. I actually feel better knowing he feels the same way. Thanks for that link.

CptCosmic.3156:

mOOnRaBBiT.8913:

i think i have clearly said that elixirs might have been intended to those who spend points in alchemy trait line.

traits like cleaning formula 409 and HGH is an improvement to your elixirs. it’s up to you by the way if you choose to not take traits that improve elixirs and still use elixirs. btw getting 30 alchemy improves your elixirs.

elixir H can give you a more mobile condition remover. if use on yourself, it can give 2 stacks of 20 seconds might and can add up to additional +3% damage.

“toolbelt skills to compensate him for the lack of weapon options”
kits occupy skill slots for changing kits, elixirs occupy skill slots for what? for the skill itself.

repeating always the same over and over and writing what certain abilites do without any context does not make your “argument” valid -.- according to you toss elixirs are fine because I can trait for them to make them useful? so when I want to use them properly I have to wait till atleast lvl 40 for the master trait? you write something about the elixir utility skills when the thread is about the toss elixir TOOLBELT skills random effect and elixir X elite skill. your last sentence is a good indication and everyone can see that you have not really read anything and have no real point, you just post for the sake of posting something. btw toolbelt skills have nothing to do with with weapon or bundle skills your receive from kits.

ah internet argument, i think you are nearing to the point of calling me names.

i think you are just being greedy, you sounds like you want it all. as far as i know thieves and warriors have a skill the same as our elixir U but have different side effects. we have elixir U on the skill slot and then we have a BUNOS skill at our toolbelt. this goes the same with elixir B and S. you see, toolbelt are good compensation for kits and us not able to switch weapon but with elixir occupying our skill slot, there is maybe a little or maybe none to compensate.

we have a toss skill that can farther be improve with traits along with the elixir in our skill slot.

you see, i’m not against changing it. just saying that it might be intended.

anyway if there are things you don’t understand about my post, i’ll be happy to explain.

when i’m finish with my guardian and mesmer and will be able to fully compare them to engineers and find that toolbelt sucks compare to what guardian and mesmer have then i will join your cause.

anyway as of now, if i compare my engineer to my guardian. guardians have virtue instead of toolbelt then it’s up to you if you will improve your virtue by getting traits. which is base on my build, i am not going to, so my virtue may not be that good in the end. the same way maybe as my engineer toss skill might not be good without some traits.

Ah but virtues are not random.
You know exactly what you’ll get when you activate them making skillful usage possible – unlike the elixirs.
As i said, if you get the traits for the elixirs to give might / remove conditions then they become predictable to some extend – but at that point they basically all do the same.
The traits should improve the skills not define them.

Keelin.5781:

if you get the traits for the elixirs to give might / remove conditions then they become predictable to some extend – but at that point they basically all do the same.
The traits should improve the skills not define them.

pretty much agree. it is like having a toolbelt skill that does almost nothing till you get atleast a master trait.

mOOnRaBBiT.8913:

toolbelt are good compensation for kits

you still dont get it and repeat your post again just with longer sentences and explanations. not even that but with nonsense thrown into it.

1. kits and the weapon skills you get from them have nothing to do with toolbelt skills or with elixirs. kits have their own toolbelt skills. yes kits and our toolbelt skills are meant to compensate the lack of weapon switch but having an effect that you dont need in 66% of the cases is for sure not intended when the toolbelt skills are meant to be a form of compensation. I dont know what you want, but you are just talking nonsense.

2. guardian virtues are not random, you know exactly what you get and can decide when you get it. you dont have to trait for it to have the desired effect. your argument is null and void cause it does not even apply to this case.

mOOnRaBBiT.8913:

ah internet argument, i think you are nearing to the point of calling me names.

obvious flamebait and you make yourself just look stupid.

I don’t understand why people think that you are compensated for picking a kit with a toolbelt.

You never are. Its simply a choice. Do you want ACCESS to 5 weapon skills, or do you want ACCESS to one more utility skill. Its that simple.

You do lose a utility slot, but gain 5 potential weapon skills.

Look at it this way:

4 kits= 4 toolbelts.
4 elixirs= 4 toolbelts.
4 turrets= 4 toolbelts.
1 turret, 3 gadgets= 4 toolbelts.

You always get 4 toolbelts so you aren’t ‘compensated’, you simply lose a utilty slot. Its that simple.

Keelin.5781:

Ah but virtues are not random.
You know exactly what you’ll get when you activate them making skillful usage possible – unlike the elixirs.
As i said, if you get the traits for the elixirs to give might / remove conditions then they become predictable to some extend – but at that point they basically all do the same.
The traits should improve the skills not define them.

i cannot fully compare how well their virtue and toolbelt mechanics play on their different playstyle at this time.

i think toss elixir B, U and S even on it’s randomness can be predictable to what it will be use for. S is for defense/escape, U for defensive spell on the ground and B is for offensive boon.

but you have a point.

Yes, RNG has no place in a pvp game.

If at all, it needs to be really really minor. This applies to crit as well. Crit and crit damage, are a very poor choice in this game as well.

On this specific topic, as noted, either remove the randomness entirely would be ideal. while a compromise of giving each elixir a single stable use effect, then adding a random effect on top of that, would be an elegant solution as well.
As of now, I do only use Elixir H, B throws PURELY to proc H.G.H, formula 409, and toolbelt lit strike. The buff effect from these skills is a complete non-factor in their use to me. I absolutely feel that is a design flaw.

This problem has been brought up many times during beta and was one of my personal complaints. Not only a good chunk of elixirs ( toolbelt skills in particular ) need a serious buff, but the randomness leads many players to simply not using them. You’d have to make them insanely strong to warrant the % of getting something that you didn’t really want inherent with most elixirs. That ultimate, in particular, is an abomination. Unfortunately I have read a post-beta interview where one of the developers plainly said that the randomness is not going away, because they think it adds more depth to the class : how are you gonna react to the random effect you get?

Bollocks, if you ask me.

Wolfheart.1938:

Unfortunately I have read a post-beta interview where one of the developers plainly said that the randomness is not going away, because they think it adds more depth to the class : how are you gonna react to the random effect you get?

Bollocks, if you ask me.

yeah this is a pretty bad design decision. the toss elixirs could have a fixed short lasting benefit and one random long lasting which would be a much better solution while still have that random factor that the developer wishes to keep. RNG has no real place in a game where a big part is pvp.

CptCosmic.3156:

mOOnRaBBiT.8913:

ah internet argument, i think you are nearing to the point of calling me names.

obvious flamebait and you make yourself just look stupid.

you see i’m not flame baiting, in internet argument, people usually say something like “everyone can see that you don’t have a point” then after that they will start calling people names. i think that it is just funny how you can represent everyone all of the sudden.

honestly if you don’t or nobody understand what i am trying to say, it is actually fine.

btw i was playing wakfu before where there is this class that is base on luck, real luck since most skills are random, skills that will either kill enemies or will kill yourself. that’s why maybe i’m use to random skills cause i’m use to working around it.

mOOnRaBBiT.8913:

CptCosmic.3156:

mOOnRaBBiT.8913:

ah internet argument, i think you are nearing to the point of calling me names.

obvious flamebait and you make yourself just look stupid.

you see i’m not flame baiting, in internet argument, people usually say something like “everyone can see that you don’t have a point” then after that they will start calling people names. i think that it is just funny how you can represent everyone all of the sudden.

honestly if you don’t or nobody understand what i am trying to say, it is actually fine.

I am sorry that you dont grasp the context of “everyone can see it”. it is just a nice description for something that is OBVIOUS.

also there is nothing to undersand, cause as I have already pointed out, your post contains alot of nonsense =D

Getting back on topic here:

ANet’s logic with elixirs was, that they wanted the randomness to introduce gameplay situation that make you think on your feet. They want the engineer to be somewhat unpredictable so that all parties (the engineer himself and his allies) have to react to the effects.

However, in reality the various effects are way too different and the rng can dramatically affect the outcome of battles without any chance for the player to react in any way.
I recall several boss fights in dungeons where I was desperately throwing my elixir h hoping for vigor, as dodging all the fires was impossible without. Over the course of a 8 minute fight, I did not get a single vigor proc and died several times as a result. If I would have consistently gotten vigor, I most likely would not have died a single time.

Or consider this: with the changed juggernaut trait, a thrown elixir s is now our ONLY source for stability. Stability is something that shouldn’t be random. You want to use to counter specific mechanics and proper timing is already tricky on this. Unreliability is the last thing we want.

I would no longer describe these skills as random. I would describe them as unreliable. Sometimes they give you what you want, sometimes they don’t. That’s not a fun game mechanic.

TL;DR: The randomness can and will kill you and it’s not fun, but extremely frustrating.

Elixer was supposed to make Engineers unpredictable… sadly enough it made Engineer unpredictable for the player him/herself to :P

Unpredictable is not necessarily bad. However, it feels more like unreliable. Which certainly feels bad.

Andazeus.1928:

They want the engineer to be somewhat unpredictable so that all parties (the engineer himself and his allies) have to react to the effects.

the devs should also look it from another point of view. most of the random effects are too weak to be considered changing and unpredictable when you get something you did not wanted in the first place that actually does not help you in any form in the current situation. all you can do in such a moment is accept your fate and die when you dont get the effect you really need. if the effects were alot more powerful then it would be different.

lets take toss elixir U. no one would complain if it would place a randomly generated big AOE circle field like frost (that deals damage and chills), fire (that deals damage and burns) or any other cool and meaningful effect but currently it is a gamble if you get something that could influence the fight at all.

Since you already quoted me, feel free to take a look at the rest of my post. It contains several more examples regarding exactly that issue.

toss elixir U and toss elixir S is my favorite toss skill to use on WvW. and i’m not trolling.

Is it so hard to have one guaranted effect, with a short random secondary effect that lasts a miniscule amount of seconds? random is terrible and not fun, why not make thieves randomly throw ice cream cones instead of knives, why not have warriors sing justin beiber songs instead of shout? thats certainly how i feel when i get stability instead of stealth when geting mobed by 200 enemies, or swiftness instead of protection when im rooted

I’m not sure where i read this but someone proposed having different effects depending on such things as your health.
It was something like:
If you have above 50% health elixir H would give you protection.
If you have below 50% health it would give you regeneration in addition to protection.
And if you have below 25% stamina it would give you vigor (possibly in addition to the above).

I think having conditional effects on both the elixirs and their thrown skills would be a nice way to solve things as it would still require you to ‘react’ to the situation you’re in.

Keelin.5781:

I’m not sure where i read this but someone proposed having different effects depending on such things as your health.
It was something like:
If you have above 50% health elixir H would give you protection.
If you have below 50% health it would give you regeneration in addition to protection.
And if you have below 25% stamina it would give you vigor (possibly in addition to the above).

I think having conditional effects on both the elixirs and their thrown skills would be a nice way to solve things as it would still require you to ‘react’ to the situation you’re in.

That was Teldo alright.

Great suggestion that was.

CptCosmic.3156:

abilites should be useful even without traits or do you know any other ability from other classes that work like that?

Signets and Traps from the Ranger; but one evil does not justify another…
The randomness has to go, or at least reduced to a level it doesn’t make the difference between dieing/winning or not.

I just want to give my teammates Swiftness at the start of sPVP alright? No other buff is needed. Of course I want Toss Elixir B to give all 4 buffs as tooltip says. However if that is not possible, then not (1 of 4 random lol) , just (Swiftness) alright?

Also Toss Elixir R has two completely different effects (both are good but I want to choose), and Elixir X is near useless compared to Supply Drop.

hmm? toss Elixir R does both it says it does.
It drops an aoe that revives and removes conditions for 6s. healing and removing conditions every pulse.

ZoGoNDragoN.4873:

Also Toss Elixir R has two completely different effects (both are good but I want to choose), and Elixir X is near useless compared to Supply Drop.

Elixir X is our best water combat elite skill though. Especially since both possible effects are rather similar anyway, it might as well be considered as a transform on a shorter cooldown than necro/elementalist.

Though admittedly that’s also because we’re kinda short on elite skills which works underwater..

What engineers goes underwater anyways? We only have one weapon which has zero conditions so only direct damage ( meh ) engis or point defense engis get to to underwater.

bester underwater skill are grenades. especialy if you specced for them. you totaly gonna own everything there. just try it in wvw, lure some players into the water and let them grenades handle them.

Elixir gun works fine underwater. Its condition based.

grenades are incredibly op underwater.

@achmed/Casia: Yes, grenades are OP underwater, and some other skills work. Doesn’t change the fact that Elixir X is our only elite skill which works underwater.

@Casia : Sorry I meant Toss Elixir S. lol

supply drop also works underwater.

Casia.4281:

supply drop also works underwater.

Bah, serves me right for not checking after the betas. Still, I’d think it’d be overwhelmingly weaker than the land based version, though admittedly I’ll need to check to make sure.

It’s definitely way more useful than elixir x. And the floating turrets looks pretty funny

I usually switch between a direct damage rifle build or a condition based p/p build but I always like to revolve my builds around the elixirs. That being said I can understand the dev’s argument for randomness. The consequences of not getting a desired proc are at most a nuisance and IMHO do not effectively ruin my playstyle. Having to react to a toss u appropriately makes my gameplay feel more dynamic but conversely getting stability from a toss s rather than invis feels more of a random punishment than a fun gameplay element. Here are my two cents on the elixirs with rng properties:

toss elixir b- should either be guaranteed to give all buffs listed or have a tooltip clarification. The randomness is a nuisance but not game breaking imo. Maybe make it so it always grants swiftness but still applies the other boons randomly. Another possibility would be to make it so it always grants 4 boons but it can create multiple stacks of one particular boon. So it would be possible to receive one stack of each of the buffs or for example 2 stacks of might, 1 of swiftness, 1 of retaliation. Just an idea I had.

toss elixir c- I havent used this elixir much but the randomness of this buff seems fine. Maybe add an hp conditional like above 50% hp gives might, fury, protection. Under 50% gives boons like aegis, vigor and regeneration. Maybe some boons like stability, swiftness, retaliation can occur during either.

elixir h- i think the randomness of this one is fine… maybe remove swiftness and add vigor to emphasize defensive qualities. (As a side note I believe swiftness falls into an odd category of boons along with some others because it is difficult to categorize as a defensive or offensive boon, so designing an hp conditional around it can be problematic) Edit: I was just playing and realized that it does grant vigor instead of swiftness.

toss elixir h- same as above.

toss elixir r- I only use this one sparingly so I can’t confirm that both effects are applied when tossed, which was an issue mentioned earlier in the thread.

toss elixir s- I’m only mildly annoyed by this ability’s randomness. Both effects are defensive and both can be used to secure a stomp, making it a pretty useful ability. Tossing a clutch elixir s to use invis to escape from enemies or secure a stomp for you or an ally is super gratifying. My problem with this is that I have died by tossing this expecting invis and getting stability. IMO this doesn’t add anything to gameplay and doesn’t make gameplay feel more dynamic or responsive.That being said I find this ability to be a little more difficult to modify with an hp conditional because although you might prefer invis when below 50% hp, that doesn’t mean you don’t want invis when above 50%. Maybe at below 50% hp grant a 100% chance to proc invis.

toss elixir u- I absolutely love this ability. Again I don’t mind the randomness. My only problem with this one is the stealth wall it creates (veil). It has its uses but this effect doesn’t seem to fit with the other spells it can proc (reflect wall and blind wall). I read on the wiki that this ability used to also proc line of warding (knocks down opponents that try to pass it) which I think fits much more in line with the other two spells.

tl;dr: I enjoy the responsive gameplay elixir randomness creates and I don’t think the randomness is detrimental to gameplay but I feel like some of the elixirs could be improved to better an alcehmy-based engi’s QOL.

Elixir H could be protective effects. Aegis, Protection, blind, or even retaliation.
Elixir B is obviously meant as offensive boons. So give it fury, might, or quickness.

The others elixirs are pretty good as is. These two are the biggest problems, since they don’t give a predictable effect. If the effects are gouped by similarity and purpose, it will be a lot more useful even if the effect is still random. With elixir H you would know you’ll be protected after using it, with elixir B you would know you’re getting stronger, so you can go in for the kill.
(Speaking from PvE and WvW standpoint)

Right now I only Toss those two elixirs because “eh, it’s there, might as well use it, lol, whatever”