Guild Wars 2

Why did they ever change rocket turrets toolbelt skill? It used to be a good skill that was useful with static discharge and now it’s clunky, slow and makes no sense in any turret builds.

Not to mention how stupid static discharge functions, everything about engi is clunky and annoying and I think that’s the main reason they’re the least played class. The hardest part about playing an engi is making a build that has any synergy.

IT’s not the main reason trust me, and it’s not the only problem this class faces but unfortunately your post will be ignored by the masses as well as the developers while they continue their hype daze system of excluding the reality of the situation for more sales on already made armors in the stores (instead of news one but even then…)

Without improvements to the class beyond the occassional replacement of tooltips this class in PVE will remain mediocre at best eternally.

What they need is some new blood someone who understands how these weapons work in real life who is a fan of engineers and their militarized weaponry who can shake up the misconception that anything with a 2 handed sword can easily out
DPS a flame thrower, bombs, and chemical warfare devices (excluding any condition damage in that comparison) I suggested they get such a person hire them onto the team someone who was prior army but they didn’t listen then either.

tigirius.9014:

IT’s not the main reason trust me, and it’s not the only problem this class faces but unfortunately your post will be ignored by the masses as well as the developers while they continue their hype daze system of excluding the reality of the situation for more sales on already made armors in the stores (instead of news one but even then…)

Without improvements to the class beyond the occassional replacement of tooltips this class in PVE will remain mediocre at best eternally.

What they need is some new blood someone who understands how these weapons work in real life who is a fan of engineers and their militarized weaponry who can shake up the misconception that anything with a 2 handed sword can easily out
DPS a flame thrower, bombs, and chemical warfare devices (excluding any condition damage in that comparison) I suggested they get such a person hire them onto the team someone who was prior army but they didn’t listen then either.

This is actually true. I was testing the new and "improved " flamethrower today. For all the added so called 33%, it still lacks any viability as an AOE weapon because of various factors. One it fires in a cone as a flame thrower should do. Flamethrowers should work on the principle of burning and a lot of it. It is the only case I know of a flamethrower that acts on a principle of power and not the condition of burning as such. 1 second lick of burning is nothing to the wider scale of class conditions, even a power spec guardian can throw more burning than that. I certainly don’t see any great improvement, not when the likes of Eles various showers come into the debate.

Rockets were supposed to track and home into targets… I see no difference to the turret of old. Lastly bombs . Lol seriously… bombs should be our get in and out melee option , instead they have 2 second handicap delay ( massive in any gameplay), big red circles so people can be warned where they are being placed. So yeah bombs are not ranged, so why the massive handicap ?

But then the poor excuses of Anet and this lackadaisical attitude that ranged damage (guns , kits and bows) = more risk thus less damage is wrong and needs a rethink. It is the ranged classes that are being hard countered and not the other way around. If Anet graciously provided a negative damage food, where we already have 25 condition stacks, allow power based mellee weapons to create to create better conditions even when not specifying for condies. Yeah that’s pretty wrong.

All classes should be attributed properly to accumulate the best damage possible as this affects the loot system and its damage ratio % . This is why zerkers are favored and get the better share of dungeon runs. So before Anet talk about “build diversity”, it would be better for them to actually understand what weapons are and what they do , get the head out of the “ranged is less danger” nonsense and start creating better stats for classes that rely on such weapons. Otherwise give us all hammers , stuns and power traits and see some equal footing here.

Rest assured however, Anet protocol is selling a mess of a game to the Chinese, which pretty much is selling that mess onto an otherwise new and unaware gaming community. LOL that is until the they start to complain and find the same faults as we do. I wonder what they will do then?

mzt.3270:

This is actually true. I was testing the new and "improved " flamethrower today. For all the added so called 33%, it still lacks any viability as an AOE weapon because of various factors.

Call me crazy, but wouldn’t it make more sense to actually test the flamethrower after they actually do the update that will apply changes to it? You are aware that they were only informing of changes that were coming and that they are not implemented yet right?

mzt.3270:

Rockets were supposed to track and home into targets…

will probably home similar to rifle net shot.

mzt.3270:

But then the poor excuses of Anet and this lackadaisical attitude that ranged damage (guns , kits and bows) = more risk thus less damage is wrong and needs a rethink.

Umm, I am reasonably certain there attitude is that ranged damage offers less risk.

mzt.3270:

snip

So, uh, I can’t help but point out that the Ready-Up changes haven’t happened yet. You can’t test the 33% extra damage, because it doesn’t exist at this point in time, and Rockets won’t home because they don’t yet.

The changes haven’t been implemented.

Thanks Anymras.5729 – Apologies, I stand corrected on the changes I see. I was under the impression last Fridays build was going to install these changes. Then I guess we wait and see how this draws engineers to coming nearer to drawing closer to game balance.

@coglin.1867 – Yes the patch stated rockets were to track targets in the next patch. I guess they could re-word them as homing missles for the sake of retentiveness.
I am fully aware what a rocket is thank you kindly, you get both unguided and guided rockets, which as you clearly state are dependent on the technology of the launching device and internal hardware/ software. Indeed rockets are fired from a turret, therefore we have a “device”.

Stating a rocket as a simple propelled projectile does not hold water. That’s like saying a bomb is a free-falling explosive dropped from a height, when technology history has shown us that various type of bomb , some of which had very advanced tracking systems for the time were employed during warfare. The Fritz X being a classic example.

As for In-game scenario, tracking would be important due to the “over zealous” natures of the mobility of certain classes. If we wanted to get technical over why a rocket should not be a tracking projectile, then perhaps we should also perhaps consider a great many scenarios we take for granted in GW2. In a world where thieves can vanish in open air for an indistinct amount of time without any technological aid of stealth. Where a warrior can pretty much escape for a huge distance with the aid of a sword skill, (not rocket boots a sword skill !!!) Should we REALLY get into the nitty gritty of “realism”.?

However on the note of ranged = less risk, I really do not think so. Melee have more than ample means for escape , considering ranged classes have to spec to get any sort of projectile range back ,not that it makes a difference as the amount of mobility ranged classes get is beyond the reach of trajectory range, even traited.
As for THEIR attitude stating ranged is less risk, that don’t hold much either. In a game that pretty much the only viable armor in a dungeon is Zerkers, don’t you think (as many others do), that the game vision is a total mess and that’s only the beginning of a long line of pointers to tear the game vision and design apart.

Just because a creator or developer of a situation or invention runs something, does not make it viable or in this scenario “make sense”. It depends on onlookers scrutinizing and questioning actions, who you ask and whose opinion is stated. Not everyone will agree with a vision, statement or action. I’m just grateful some people question and highlight inconsistencies to push issues to make things fairer for all. After all if people never did that, could you imagine what sort of world we would be living in today. Some people take “liberty” far too face value.

As an example … Condie dependent builds are till sitting at 25 capped condie damage and wondering why high condies don’t reflect the quality of loot they get? ?? Ask more questions and push for answers … that’s the only way you get them. You don’t get them by accepting your lot but you can if you question more.

mzt.3270:

Yes the patch stated rockets were to track targets in the next patch

This is my point. Your making demands of what you expected skills to do when the patch has not even occurred.

Also, they reworded the name of the pistol number one skill because it was causing player confusion as well.

coglin.1867:

mzt.3270:

Yes the patch stated rockets were to track targets in the next patch

This is my point. Your making demands of what you expected skills to do when the patch has not even occurred.

Also, they reworded the name of the pistol number one skill because it was causing player confusion as well.

Yes because they were supposed to have been placed last Friday, when we had the patch change that is what was expected. Obviously it was a insignificant living world kitten and thus that was all that was changed. I stand corrected

mzt.3270:

Yes because they were supposed to have been placed last Friday, when we had the patch change that is what was expected. Obviously it was a insignificant living world kitten and thus that was all that was changed. I stand corrected

It was? First, since all the updates are on Tuesday, how do you claim they were expected last Friday? Secondly, the specifically stated the date for the changes they discussed was yet to be determined.

mzt.3270:

As for In-game scenario, tracking would be important due to the “over zealous” natures of the mobility of certain classes. If we wanted to get technical over why a rocket should not be a tracking projectile, then perhaps we should also perhaps consider a great many scenarios we take for granted in GW2. In a world where thieves can vanish in open air for an indistinct amount of time without any technological aid of stealth. Where a warrior can pretty much escape for a huge distance with the aid of a sword skill, (not rocket boots a sword skill !!!) Should we REALLY get into the nitty gritty of “realism”.?

Magic. Thieves use magic. Warriors, it has been confirmed, use magic at an instinctive level.

A better way of looking at this is that engineers are already using things that don’t match the technology level or otherwise defy physics. When was the last time you threw yourself across a gap by firing a blunderbuss at the ground? How many of the firearms in the game look like they’re even breech-loaders, let alone capable of sustaining anywhere near the rate of fire shown in skills like Volley, Unload, and Poison Dart Volley? When were tasers (Static Shot) and explosive pistol-caliber rounds (Explosive Shot) actually invented, and how is an engineer able to get a pistol-caliber round to explode multiple times (Coated Bullets)?

We also have precedent in homing torpedoes underwater, and the fact that turrets of all kinds already have an automated targeting system.

The answer to all of this, most likely, is magic. Engineers don’t use much magic directly themselves, but they do know how to incorporate it into their inventions.

draxynnic.3719:

mzt.3270:

As for In-game scenario, tracking would be important due to the “over zealous” natures of the mobility of certain classes. If we wanted to get technical over why a rocket should not be a tracking projectile, then perhaps we should also perhaps consider a great many scenarios we take for granted in GW2. In a world where thieves can vanish in open air for an indistinct amount of time without any technological aid of stealth. Where a warrior can pretty much escape for a huge distance with the aid of a sword skill, (not rocket boots a sword skill !!!) Should we REALLY get into the nitty gritty of “realism”.?

Magic. Thieves use magic. Warriors, it has been confirmed, use magic at an instinctive level.

A better way of looking at this is that engineers are already using things that don’t match the technology level or otherwise defy physics. When was the last time you threw yourself across a gap by firing a blunderbuss at the ground? How many of the firearms in the game look like they’re even breech-loaders, let alone capable of sustaining anywhere near the rate of fire shown in skills like Volley, Unload, and Poison Dart Volley? When were tasers (Static Shot) and explosive pistol-caliber rounds (Explosive Shot) actually invented, and how is an engineer able to get a pistol-caliber round to explode multiple times (Coated Bullets)?

We also have precedent in homing torpedoes underwater, and the fact that turrets of all kinds already have an automated targeting system.

The answer to all of this, most likely, is magic. Engineers don’t use much magic directly themselves, but they do know how to incorporate it into their inventions.

If only that was more apparent. The engineer would be more interesting.

@ coglin
Because there was an update, we can nitpick on the day sure but there was one for sure. The end of the matter is there was one, the day of the week is frankly un-important and nit-picking. I frankly don’t spend my time nitpicking on the second for second to the calendar workings of Anet, I am too busy working, family, job etc to care.

I only know from the details I see in a game that I spend good money on per month in Gemstore for my personal enjoyment, is now seriously not performing to a percentage of classes in-game of which my engineer is one and seriously could do better. The crux of the matter is there are viable claims made that seriously hamper the engineer. In not one reply have you actually seen to the agreement that these handicaps place the engineer further down the balance scale.

The point I am making ( despite the date, hour and second) is my money and my time and effort ( as well as other peoples) is not any less or un-important as one who may not spend money at all, grind for a set of zerker gear for a melee class and a great sword, farm and get the loot while some poor person on an engie/ ranger is struggling with a pistol / bow, a mediocre damage output because of range and the " range is less risky approach". A series of warning signs to let people know they are coming with an attack with a bomb, a few second delay. Rockets that fire into seriously nothing because mobility and stun breaks and power/crit attack numbers of some mellee classes are frankly obscene. Where melee classes can also have conditions stacking as well as hard hitting power/ crit ( considering where there is already a 25 limit on condition stacks). Where does that leave condition based classes ? They certainly cannot replicate the same power to crit number on melee as they are not given the means to do so. Even when they do in the case of ranger it is still next to nothing on a warrior/ guardian. Where is the justification for them- that is the 65 dollar question. Yes they can re-roll, yes they can take another class into a dungon. Answer – why should they? They spend the same gold as a melee class, they use the same armor, runes , sigils etc. The issue is and always will be this “range = less risk” which is just codswallop.

We are all fully aware that every build has to have a counteract, but the issue is range is suffering because some melee classes has pretty much everything on a plate, stealth, mass movement, stunbreaks , gap closers pretty much at the touch of a button where engineers have to fight with kits, time delays etc. Bosses have mass AOE, gap closers, ranged rifle shots/ knockdowns that not even ranged will save you. In fact in all honesty the nearer you are to the majority of bosses the less risk you have, simply because of the attack mechanics. So no sorry – range = less risk is not viable. Homing rockets as I was going state ( might) be part of a help to that, better bomb damage ( absolutely) .

I am not in any way slating melee classes, I have a few on the go that i like to use, I am just being honest. The days of range being less risk is simply not true at all and desperately needs a rethink . This is why engies are hard countered by most right now as well as long cooldowns (especially on turrets).

@ draxynnic.3719 – Yeah I agree with you and I see your point , I also have to agree with Dirame, if this was far more apparent for engineer it would be far more interesting gameplay. So far I don’t see much effect on traits such as coated bullets, the Firearms tree is a pretty awful tree to invest in anyways and I would be surprised even more so if a huge % of engies actually took this because 1- the damage on pistols is very bad to begin with and 2 – well I already commented on 1. You can fire multiple rubber bands at an assailant coming at you with a knife , end of the day its still a rubber band. Engies need more ways to stop escaping high mobility classes, better damage might be part of that. Sure we have tricks but atm its like hacking into a ship hull with a sucker gun, lets have real damage please and ways to fully counteract already advantageous, hard critting, fight resetting, high mobility classes .

Actually, in the right circumstances Explosive Shot with Coated Bullets can be devastating. It requires a tightly-packed group of mobs, though, so you’ll never see it in PvP (even WvW zergs usually know better than to pack that tight).

I think the engineer pistol is a little underrated, but it could still use some boosts to its white damage. (I’m pretty sure it was better in the beta weekends, actually – I seem to recall it being nerfed between those and release.)

Incidentally, for the record, the argument for engineer damage being low isn’t based on range = less risk per se – the argument is more that they have the versatility and adaptability of elementalists while being substantially tougher (more armour, more base health) and DPS is the price they pay for that. I’m not convinced it’s a fair trade, however, particularly since I think the difference in DPS between a good elementalist and a good non-explosives engineer is quite a bit greater than the durability difference.

On the magic thing, incidentally – I think it’s supposed to be understated. However, you’re still seeing homing torpedoes and automated turrets operating at a tech level well below when those things became available in real life (I don’t think we even have automated turrets that can reliably distinguish friend from foe even now). Point being that homing rockets isn’t much of a stretch – just come up with your own explanation of how it works, such as each rocket containing a small Branded crystal in the tip that is naturally drawn toward living or magical creatures. (It’s worth noting that ArenaNet has gone on the record as saying that different engineers may well use different techniques to achieve the same result – an asuran engineer would likely be employing golemancy, for instance, while a sylvari engineer might have a specially grown sentient (note: NOT the same as sapient) plant in each rocket as the guiding system.)

Essentially, we’re looking at Agatha Heterodyne’s corollary to Clarke’s law: “Any sufficiently analysed magic is indistinguishable from SCIENCE!!!”

mzt.3270:

@ coglin
Because there was an update, we can nitpick on the day sure but there was one for sure. The end of the matter is there was one, the day of the week is frankly un-important and nit-picking. I frankly don’t spend my time nitpicking on the second for second to the calendar workings of Anet, I am too busy working, family, job etc to care.

Seeing as how they very specifically schedule all of the updates on the same day of the week since release, I would hardly call it nit picky, i would call it more along the lines of “fact”.

You claim you are to busy to pay attention to facts and details, but your not too busy to make an uninformed ranting post, chalf full of accusations based on misinformation.

mzt.3270:

I only know from the details I see in a game that I spend good money on per month in Gemstore for my personal enjoyment, is now seriously not performing to a percentage of classes in-game of which my engineer is one and seriously could do better. The crux of the matter is there are viable claims made that seriously hamper the engineer. In not one reply have you actually seen to the agreement that these handicaps place the engineer further down the balance scale.

What specific handicaps does the engineer have that you are referring to?

mzt.3270:

The point I am making ( despite the date, hour and second) is my money and my time and effort ( as well as other peoples) is not any less or un-important as one who may not spend money at all, grind for a set of gear

This is where you keep losing your battle. You have no idea how much any other player does or does not spend on the game, yet you sit here and claim that you spend money (which we have no actual proof of) and that the fact that you spend money gives your opinion more weight. It does not. For that matter, by your standards, if I suggest I spend more then you on the gem store, then by your own logic, my opinion has more value then yours.

mzt.3270:

We are all fully aware that every build has to have a counteract, but the issue is range is suffering because some melee classes has pretty much everything on a plate, stealth, mass movement, stunbreaks , gap closers pretty much at the touch of a button where engineers have to fight with kits, time delays etc.

You just described everything my grenade/bomb build has. Except I can do it at both range and melee. For as much attention as grenades get for being suggested as over powered, I find it hard to accept and claim that ranged is sufferinf in our case.

mzt.3270:

Bosses have mass AOE, gap closers, ranged rifle shots/ knockdowns that not even ranged will save you. In fact in all honesty the nearer you are to the majority of bosses the less risk you have, simply because of the attack mechanics. So no sorry – range = less risk is not viable. Homing rockets as I was going state ( might) be part of a help to that, better bomb damage ( absolutely) .

Wait, what? Your complaints are based on PvE bosses? What specific boss is so difficult, that it requires your ardent yet irrational claims?

mzt.3270:

I am not in any way slating melee classes, I have a few on the go that i like to use, I am just being honest. The days of range being less risk is simply not true at all and desperately needs a rethink . This is why engies are hard countered by most right now as well as long cooldowns (especially on turrets).

Not sure what your doing, but it sure seems like you keep assuming that the engineer is a ranged profession, when they are actually mid ranged. I play my bomb engineer as a in your face melee very successfully. Perhaps the issue is your play style or build choices. It sure seems to me that you trying to make the profession into something it is not designed to be, and going on to claim that just becaue you bought something off of the gem store once, that they should redesign the profession around you.

draxynnic.3719:

I think the engineer pistol is a little underrated, but it could still use some boosts to its white damage. (I’m pretty sure it was better in the beta weekends, actually – I seem to recall it being nerfed between those and release.)

Yes, they nerfed the direct damage between beta weekend one and two, and then between beta week end two and three they nerfed the bleed from 3s to 2s.

Coglin… lets have some time out here. It’s not a point of what the engineer is or is not, the fact of the matter is that its direct damage is in nowhere near on par to what will keep up with balance right now, be it PVE bosses, wvw or whatever. I do keep up with fact and whats going on, saying it was a ranting post chaff full of accusation is wrong. The date was wrong my opinion was not, how can an opinion be wrong?

2- Anet can see my proof in the account ledgers in what I spend, that’s proof enough.
The point I was making was this. No matter if a person spends money on gem store is not important. The fact I am making is some people will spend a degree of real money to make up what they cannot make in dungeons, simply because classes like engineer cannot pull enough damage to get a decent loot pull. I sit on 188% magic find, I have boosters, I have guild booster etc which ramp that up and no matter how many dungeons I do, I do not get the same results as I do with my warrior. That’s not an opinion , that’s a fact. If they cannot make the gold or loot in the game because the loot system is shared via damage % then they are really lost. That was the point I was getting at.

3 – If bombs work for you I really am in awe, however in my experience bombs actually have done very little to the outcome. I will explain if I am so allowed to do so. Firstly In my experience I find that bombs do very little to the outcome, they are easily dodged. Added to the fact that if we trait into zerk gear and power / precision traits because it is needed to provide any sort of big damage, in the result we lose valuable sustain. In WVW it suffers badly, we cannot zerg as we are lost in the aoe, so what is the engineers actual role is it stand mid-ranged but with this comes the issues. Mid ranged it cannot kite for safety nor do big numbers to pull off a bomb in an “in and out” tactic. In laymans terms it cannot balance a good damage to survival ratio to cope without investing into several armor stats to suit a particular role. Which I may add is a luxury a few chosen melee classes can get off with, surviving on one build, one set of armor and get really good results.

4- Of course I will agree with you it is possibly my build, I have not really found the one that is a true swiss army knife. But considering engineers are not a widely played class , I can see why that is. It is because they do not perform a particular function as well as other classes. This is why perhaps turret builds have become more popular of late. My opinion (I will stress opinion) is people do struggle with this class, mainly because they cannot cope with the onslaught that is handed to them through several classes that really facemelts them quickly.
Playstyle is also I agree may also be half the problem the class faces, It is perhaps too difficult for less results, the skill set is far too high for it to be enjoyed fully.
So this was the point I made that rockets is being allowed to home into targets would perhaps aid the class to being more friendlier even to the casual player. I have little issues playing necro than i do on an engineer, simply because even with a lack of stability and stun break, my conditions can pull a fight and I feel more part of a support than i do with engie at this moment

This is because of various factors, decent vitality, pretty huge condition application, the ability to kite and keep people at a distance, transfer conditions etc so team-mates can recover while I take the flack . Same for my warrior condition healing build, now that i move to stances and not signets, with a 400 heal tick over, massive application of bleeds at 135 tick overs. I have plus regen and 34.000 armor I am in a great position. Even with a condition build my bow does better damage than my zerk rifle without crits, really that is insane. Not that I don’t love my warrior for it, the issue is in the engineer and not in the warrior itself. Yes two totally different classes but it gives a round collaborative point to sit and weight up facts and figures to achieve an across the board opinion. As my 11 year old nephew mildly put it " That engie is **** compared to those other classes." Kids don’t lie, they are brutally honest.

Summing up – Again I will highlight, this is not a word for word online battle or irrational claims. Views are not irrational, views come from a multitude of experiences and outcomes to build an opinion. Nobodies opinion is wrong – we may aim to disagree but we have to respect peoples points and empathize as best we can to form a universal position facing a situation. Nothing is solved by “its not me , it must be you”. The date was wrong, you can have your little victory on that. But the across the board collated data on class balances do not lie. And there I will rest my case.

mzt.3270:

Coglin… lets have some time out here. It’s not a point of what the engineer is or is not, the fact of the matter is that its direct damage is in nowhere near on par to what will keep up with balance right now, be it PVE bosses, wvw or whatever. I do keep up with fact and whats going on, saying it was a ranting post chaff full of accusation is wrong. The date was wrong my opinion was not, how can an opinion be wrong?

As I see it, it is ranting. Especially when your claim contradict Everyone else. The population generally considers engineers Op in many WvW scenarios. The math posted repeatedly by several players shows the engineer in the top 3 direct damage output professions out there. As well they are considered very strong in PvP. With this in mind, who can take you seriously when you say you keep up with what is going on, when you have offered no actual facts to support that, and most of your claims go against what the player base suggest?

As to your opinion, no one said it was wrong. I see little to know claims you made that stated them as opinion, all I see is where you have made claims and accusations. Claiming this is stupid, or that is clunky. I do not even see the word “opinion” much less the qualifiers “in my opinion” or “my opinion” in a single post you made on this thread thus far.

mzt.3270:

2- Anet can see my proof in the account ledgers in what I spend, that’s proof enough.
The point I was making was this. No matter if a person spends money on gem store is not important.

Then why did your last post suggest that it offers your statements more attention and validity? Now your backtracking a lot on your previous statements.

mzt.3270:

The fact I am making is some people will spend a degree of real money to make up what they cannot make in dungeons, simply because classes like engineer cannot pull enough damage to get a decent loot pull.

What happened to “your opinion”? Here you are claiming what you say as “fact” again. Do you have any math to support this claim?

Here is actual math done that offers strong evidence to disagree with you

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/91678-post-april-2014-patch-dps-calculations/

mzt.3270:

I sit on 188% magic find, I have boosters, I have guild booster etc which ramp that up and no matter how many dungeons I do, I do not get the same results as I do with my warrior. That’s not an opinion , that’s a fact. If they cannot make the gold or loot in the game because the loot system is shared via damage % then they are really lost. That was the point I was getting at.

Again your here claiming that your personal experience are “facts”. Just because the way you play the two professions and your varying luck between them has not been ideal for you does not make anything “fact”, it simply makes it your experience. Yet you have the nerve to claim someone is telling you your opinion is wrong when all you claim are so called facts.

mzt.3270:

Of course I will agree with you it is possibly my build

No idea. You are making all of your claims based on this, yet have not shared your build with us.

mzt.3270:

Summing up – Again I will highlight, this is not a word for word online battle or irrational claims. Views are not irrational, views come from a multitude of experiences and outcomes to build an opinion. Nobodies opinion is wrong – we may aim to disagree but we have to respect peoples points and empathize as best we can to form a universal position facing a situation. Nothing is solved by “its not me , it must be you”. The date was wrong, you can have your little victory on that. But the across the board collated data on class balances do not lie. And there I will rest my case.

Your welcome to your views and opinion, but all of that goes out the window when you used the word “fact” 27 times in this thread in regard to your opinion and only use the word “opinion” once.