Guild Wars 2

Hello all,

First off, the usual bit of sadness about not getting another BWE to iron out some of the issues remaining with this elite spec.

Now, onto the meat of this discussion.

I love the hammer. Love it. Love seeing my Asura Engi run around with it, love the damage it does, love the utility it offers (Lightning fields, leap finishers, stun, daze, block). Overall, I love it, and want to design a build that’s competitive in PvE while still featuring it.

That said, I’m aware that in a raid context, it’s either shape up or… not necessarily “ship out” but at least put some vitality and toughness on yourself somewhere. I can appreciate that. I can also appreciate that, in a 10 player setting, 25 stacks of might that I’m guaranteed from an HGH/Juggernaut/Mass Momentum setup will be more than guaranteed by my allies. I run with a Phalanx Strength Warrior, and despite all the kitten I give him about only having to press two buttons, he does his job very well.

So, I’m asking anyone who had experience as a Scrapper in the raid beta, who loves the hammer as much as I do and wants to see it thrive as much as I do, what sorts of builds did you run? What suggestions do you have in terms of traits/utilities/gear combinations?

Keep in mind:

Sinister gear is out. I do not have it in me to farm for another set of Ascended gear right now. I understand that I’m missing out on one of the best roles that Engineers have to offer by doing this, but I’m eager to at least try to break from the meta. I’m sure we’ll have plenty of condi available to deal with the red guardian.

I am in love with Strength Runes as a substitute for Scholar runes, unless proven otherwise. In raids, where all of the bosses seem to have a constantly ticking raid wide damage effect, it becomes much harder to mitigate and control.

Currently, the set I’m working toward is ’Zerker armor and weapons, and Celestial trinkets. I feel like, especially with something like Adaptive Armor, this offers a substantial boost in survival over pure ’Zerker. Granted, I might be totally off base here, so, again, any assistance is appreciated.

I ran the raid a few times with scrapper, mainly going for the “tanky” role. I used all Soldier stat armor with strength runes (Pack runes would probably be better for extra fury since might is so prevalent) and all Knight’s trinkets with a berserker weapon.

I ran hammer of course, amazing weapon, and healing turret, blast Gyro, elixir B and grenade kit. I used mortar kit mostly but also tried Sneak Gyro for the extra detonation perk with the super speed on Gyro kill.

Main role besides dragging the boss around was giving allies super speed to get to the blue lightning quicker. It worked pretty well.

Update: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASnUUBtoiVXBmYB0ehl7jieVj1aNciCgM5bGCoCC-TxhFABA8AA+TJIhq/cmOgZ2fYJlfJcBAIFQEjBA-e

That’s the build link I was using. High armor and still really good damage. Besides kiting and stuff like I said main role was giving super speed too allies and also using Function Gyro to res allies.

This is, to my best knowledge, the build Dom used to down the Vale Guardian.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqelUUhSsYtWwPLQ7FLGGFdj/4VO46Ff7UYAcf7FA-TxxHABEp8zl9Hm9BAMo6PAcCAMTPwTKBBA-e

Just another note, though: if everyone is running baseline toughness, you can theoretically tank the boss in Sinister with Adaptive Armor.

Keep in mind, I’m looking for a build where hammer is the main weapon. I understand that the first Scrapper to clear the raid might not have used it – but surely there’s got to be one that’s come close.

I understand. I just thought it’d provide a point of comparison or inspiration for you. Obviously nothing about this beta weekend was ideal; my guild got very close to killing it, but we had to do a new group each night since the same people weren’t around every day—or even on the same professions.

The Chronomancer in their kill, Card, is actually a member of my guild as well, so I’ll talk with him and let you know if they’ve adjusted their Scrapper build since.

I understand, and I appreciate it regardless. At least I know that the trait setup I’m looking at is what seems to be going around. Adaptive Armor is fantastic, especially if the last raid boss is going to be laying on as much burning as seems to be implied.

I think the viability of hammer builds will be up to how well it works with any future boss mechanics. However, sinister condi engi seems to be so strong, it’s hard for me to see why you’d want to run anything else, at least from a performance standpoint.

I can easily see a condi engi going as scrapper for the traits (Adaptive Armor) and function bot since it’s not a big drop in DPS to lose Tools. Of course, you’ll still want Pistol/Pistol for that. =P

Dahkeus.8243:

I think the viability of hammer builds will be up to how well it works with any future boss mechanics. However, sinister condi engi seems to be so strong, it’s hard for me to see why you’d want to run anything else, at least from a performance standpoint.

I can easily see a condi engi going as scrapper for the traits (Adaptive Armor) and function bot since it’s not a big drop in DPS to lose Tools. Of course, you’ll still want Pistol/Pistol for that. =P

Pistol/Shield seems to be pretty viable as well, and it provides much more utility.

I’m liking the looks of a tankier set designed to pull bosses around. This is something I made, based off of the build that the first guy suggested.

Update: Made a few adjustments to help bring Critical Hit % up to code. Considering swapping out Runes of the Pack for Runes of the Eagle, but the lack of power there has me hesitating.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASnUUBFpiVXBmYB0ehl7jieVj1ZFshiosIciCgMB-TxBBABA8AAsU9n80BU0+Ddp8LgLAwZKBDAcAM8wBg1Xf91Xf9Ge4hHe4hLFQELjA-e

Keep in mind, I’m not looking for the highest performance DPS build because I am not the highest performance player – due to various reasons, some of which are related to actual problems with vision and the skeletal structure of my hands. I want a build that allows me to at least contribute DPS, even if it isn’t the most optimal, while doing my party members the service of not being on my back, not letting the boss swarm them while they’re trying to do -their- DPS, and allowing melee DPS to attack a given boss in favorable conditions.

Update/Update: For -now- I’m going to be trying a ‘Zerker/Knight split, using Inventions for survivability, and Firearms for boosted Crit %. I’m looking for something to swap Grenade Kit for since I won’t be using Explosives. I’m leaning toward Slick Shoes for maneuverability/knockdown.

Realistically, tanks only need marginally more toughness than everyone else.

It has been theorized that a Sinister Scrapper with adaptive armor could most likely hold the boss if everyone else is at baseline toughness.

That’s the thing. I don’t -want- to run a Sinister build.

ShahinSafavi.6821:

That’s the thing. I don’t -want- to run a Sinister build.

I was not suggesting you do mate.

Just pointing out that whatever gear you choose, as long as you take Adaptive Armor, you should not need any toughness.

That said, in order to not crater your DPS, Zerker/Sinister ARE your best options.

Since Sinister is out, full Zerker seems like a good bet. Your rotations have a ton more leeway and you can take some meaningful utilities.

Damage is not as high as Sinister for a long fight, but still pretty exceptional.

And obviously this works much better with the power-focused hammer.

As long as you are judicious in your use of Rocket hammer, it should do pretty well.

Sorry if I came off as a bit snippy.

I didn’t know Adaptive Armor was really that significant of a bonus – granted, I don’t particularly understand the exact mechanics of how toughness mitigates damage. That said, would having Knight’s trinkets (amulet, rings, accessories) really crater my DPS that much?

I’m curious as to what meaningful utilities you’re talking about? I’m imagining Grenade Kit and/or Elixir Gun?

Aside from Scrapper, what traitlines do you suggest I take? Inventions offers a lot of good QoL options, but then I’m stuck sacrificing Firearms or Explosives.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASnUUBFpiVXBmYB0ehl7jieVj1ZFshiosIciCgMB-TxRBABXt/Ae6A4S5HAXAg8eAAUq+jZKBDAcAM8wBg1Xf91Xf9Ge4hHe4hDA-e

Update: This is the (Buffless) build I’ve been working on. Almost 200% crit damage, ideal precision factoring in Firearms. Sticking with Adaptive Armor because it’s a fantastic trait.

i have a feeling that your raid group might pressure you into running a sinister build since condi damage is needed and condi engi is higher dps than power engi “anyways”.

personally ill prolly just shrug and laugh at people who try to do that to me, but it could be a big issue.

Thankfully, the people I plan to run the raids with aren’t -that- intense about that sort of thing. That said, I’m also one of two people in said guild who mains an Engineer, so there’s that too.

We’re going to have to have some serious discussions about arranging effective raid teams, though.

Most people who played BWE3 would theorize that the most optimal build out there for a DPS scrapper involves the alchemy tree: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASncoCVXhlXBubB0ehlJjieuz7/Gc6yuQSsZKgAA-TxRBABrfBAuS53Q7PgnOAAeAAUq+jZKBJFQEDtA-e

However, as you have correctly pointed out, taking elixir B in an organised raid would be overkill in the boon department. But does this mean we shouldn’t invest in the alchemy tree at all? Considering how important acid bomb and elixir U is to our rotation I’d say no (not that I have the numbers to prove it). In a raid environment I’d recommend replacing Elixir B with rocket boots, flamethrower or even elixir S.

It was also noted in raids that turrets, minions and illusions were not taking damage from raid bosses. Perhaps you could slot in a rocket turret?

ShahinSafavi.6821:

Sinister gear is out. I do not have it in me to farm for another set of Ascended gear right now. I understand that I’m missing out on one of the best roles that Engineers have to offer by doing this, but I’m eager to at least try to break from the meta.

With all due respect, raids are challenging, group-oriented, end-game content with enrage timers. This isn’t really the space for people to “break from the meta.” These boss fights are intended to be defeated in very specific ways.

And more to that point, I don’t understand: you can just change the stats on your ascended armor by forging them with an Anthology of Heroes.

insanemaniac.2456:

personally ill prolly just shrug and laugh at people who try to do that to me

Enjoy those enrage timers, then.

This expansion will be a great eye opener for the arrogant, I think. There is very little margin for error here.

Phineas Poe.3018:

ShahinSafavi.6821:

Sinister gear is out. I do not have it in me to farm for another set of Ascended gear right now. I understand that I’m missing out on one of the best roles that Engineers have to offer by doing this, but I’m eager to at least try to break from the meta.

With all due respect, raids are challenging, group-oriented, end-game content with enrage timers. This isn’t really the space for people to “break from the meta.” These boss fights are intended to be defeated in very specific ways.

And more to that point, I don’t understand: you can just change the stats on your ascended armor by forging them with an Anthology of Heroes.

insanemaniac.2456:

personally ill prolly just shrug and laugh at people who try to do that to me

Enjoy those enrage timers, then.

This expansion will be a great eye opener for the arrogant, I think. There is very little margin for error here.

Lol, I was trying to find a nice way to eventually get to this.

Dungeons are super easy and super forgiving when it comes to doing your own thing. This has warped our understanding about what content requires us to have.

Or what challenging content really means.

The issue with this model of thinking is that not everyone has access to a consistent group of fellow players that consistently fall into the meta – so attempting to play a meta build in that context can be outright detrimental, as everyone else’s stuff doesn’t fall into place around it.

For instance – there exist two people in my guild that consistently play Warrior, and one of them is on a F2P account. They plan to switch over eventually, but they won’t have Ascended gear on the outset. As I previously said, I’m the only person who consistently mains Engi and has an interest in this sort of content.

Someone was saying that a full ’Zerker set with Adaptive Armor, if I wanted to use the hammer, would at least offer something more significant to a group. Was that just an attempt to be polite, or is there actually something to that?

I would say there are most definitely viable scrapper builds out there – either tanky or pure direct damage.

You probably wont see many because of the prevalence of condi engineers in the early beta clears – which has as much to do with everyone rolling an engi to test the new elite as it did with actual strength in the raid. People in these games like to follow the leaders (nothing wrong with it – just how it is) – and the early groups used condi engineers to down the bosses.

If you want to run a hammer scrapper in a raid, take a look at the roles needed in the raid and craft a build around them. Shouldnt be too hard – engis are pretty diverse.

Phineas Poe.3018:

insanemaniac.2456:

personally ill prolly just shrug and laugh at people who try to do that to me

Enjoy those enrage timers, then.

This expansion will be a great eye opener for the arrogant, I think. There is very little margin for error here.

i think you misunderstand.

ShahinSafavi.6821:

The issue with this model of thinking is that not everyone has access to a consistent group of fellow players that consistently fall into the meta – so attempting to play a meta build in that context can be outright detrimental, as everyone else’s stuff doesn’t fall into place around it.

For instance – there exist two people in my guild that consistently play Warrior, and one of them is on a F2P account. They plan to switch over eventually, but they won’t have Ascended gear on the outset. As I previously said, I’m the only person who consistently mains Engi and has an interest in this sort of content.

I get that, but this content isn’t being added for people like them that just picked up the game and want to run whatever build they want to. This content is being added for people like me that have been playing this game for over three years and want a serious challenge for once in PvE. And part of that challenge will mean changing your build around to accommodate the particulars of each individual boss fight.

Raids are not going to be for fresh 80s still learning the ropes of the game. That’s what dungeons are for, which naturally lead to fractals. I don’t think anyone should seriously consider doing raids without at least a couple ascended weapons and fully ascended trinkets.

A serious culture shift is going to have to occur in your guild if you guys want to be successful in these raids. They are not easy, and the margin for error is very slim. The enrage timer is eight minutes, and without 25 might, permanent fury, and 12+ stacks of burning on the boss nearly always—with some help from alacrity and quickness—you are not killing it in time.

ShahinSafavi.6821:

Someone was saying that a full ’Zerker set with Adaptive Armor, if I wanted to use the hammer, would at least offer something more significant to a group. Was that just an attempt to be polite, or is there actually something to that?

I said (and someone else as well) that a Sinister set with Adaptive Armor would allow you to tank a boss while still dealing great damage. Sinister engineer is the highest DPS build currently in the game, and second place isn’t particularly close. You could probably still use the hammer with a Sinister set, though, since the majority of your condition damage comes from your kits. All you would be theoretically losing by running the hammer is Blowtorch, and I wouldn’t expect the tank to run off-hand pistol anyway.

The “something” to why that is a good plan is that, as I’m sure you know, aggro mechanics in Guild Wars 2 are based entirely around toughness. Whoever has the highest toughness ends up holding aggro the most. There are some theories as well that certain boons heighten aggro as well, like protection, which Scrapper also has a lot of. But whatever the case, if you have the highest toughness you will hold aggro almost the entire time while still dealing top tier damage as a Sinister engineer.

…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASlUUhatYfWwELw6FLsFFdwf8JP4IWiBwXFmhHAA-TBSCABPqEEalfJ/AAsa/AAsgQZdAOr+TFXAgAAHADPcAY91Xf91XvhHe4hHe4SBso0I-e

Yeah, I don’t really know what I was trying to prove, or to who, there. Just gotta farm up the last few crests to get the Verata’s Orichalcum Inscription, then start remaking stuff/working on my Rampager’s backpiece.

Good luck Shahin.

I agree with Phineas in this thread. I don’t think the “arrogant” adjective is necessary, but I do think a lot of people are in for a rude awakening with respect to raids. It’s not the content where you “just play what you like because it’s fun”. You owe it to the rest of your raid group to wear full ascended, use the best build for the situation, and play your best.

As for Scrapper builds that specifically use the hammer, the first boss we have seen doesn’t really need it especially since there’s such a need for high condition damage if you’re going as an Engineer you’re likely filling that role. However if there is a need for high direct damage while still being tanky, especially if there’s a boss that has a very important breakbar you have to break, I think a hammer wielding Scrapper would do very well there. With all the active defense you can get on hammer you could likely afford to go more heavy on the damage with your stats. This is all speculation of course.