Guild Wars 2

You can review my build here
Edit: amended build from feedback. here

This build has 5 blast finishers : 1 fire field : 3 water fields. The idea is to provide 5 blast finishers on a fire field before starting the fight giving 15 stacks of might.

Critical strike chance is a flat 49%(ish), with traits to increase it by 10% in melee, 10% if target is bleeding and also has a soft fury application for a further 20%, with truffle steaks and oils this increases another 8% totalling a crit chance potential of 97%.

Almost everything in this build provide’s vulnerability and to further capitalise on this I will deal a further 7% damage increase on targets that are vulnerable, this is a potential 32% damage increase.

My current DPS rotation is unplanned and unpractised but the idea is to be reactionary with my blast finishers. Should the melee group be struggling then I will use blast finishers on water fields, should we be excelling then I shall use them on fire fields, in theory.

I aim for runes of strength though currently of rune of Hoelbrak for might duration.

Sigil of strength and force for additional might creation and damage.

10% of toughness is converted into power giving me an extra 100 power, Should I feel that the build needs a little more toughness than I shall change the trinkets to Knights. This will change my power from 2837 to 2722, toughness from 1000 to 1692 and critical damage from 212% to 181%.

I welcome all criticism, tweaks and feedback.
I will ignore feedback regarding switching to condition.

Edit: amended explanation. Switching to runes of the scholar and exchanged the trait grenadier to glass cannon. This gives me an extra 15% damage when above 90% health. I feel like this should be the goal for anyone. Though runes of strength for a permanent 5% damage boost may be more appropriate for some.

First, I applaud you for making this build and compiling this info. There are some of us out there that have been with this class from the start, and are kind of bored with the P/P or Condi Rifle builds, so its nice to see someone provide legit reasons to smash things with a hammer.

Second, could you go into detail about your gear?

Last, I’m hoping you get a chance to raid or do some Fractals with some open minded people, and really put the build through its paces. We need more viable builds for Engi in the Meta that don’t make people ignore the new weapons for the old ones.

I’m glad to see a power build instead of all the condition builds. I’ll try this. Ty :-)

Aedhan.1094:

First, I applaud you for making this build and compiling this info. There are some of us out there that have been with this class from the start, and are kind of bored with the P/P or Condi Rifle builds, so its nice to see someone provide legit reasons to smash things with a hammer.

Second, could you go into detail about your gear?

Last, I’m hoping you get a chance to raid or do some Fractals with some open minded people, and really put the build through its paces. We need more viable builds for Engi in the Meta that don’t make people ignore the new weapons for the old ones.

The gear you should be aiming for is pure berserker of the ascended quality. Though if you are struggling to stay alive then start changing out trinkets to knights (reduces critical damage) or cavalier (reduces critical chance) as being dead means no damage so a damage fall out to keep you on your feet is better. Though always intend on going back to full berserker. (the numbers are based on my current ascended trinkets and weapon, exotic armour)

In fractals I would change out one of the bombkit to a stun break, such as elixir gun toolbelt skill.

The hammer skills are also pretty strong and you have some nice combo’s.
Hammer 5 + 3 creates a stun followed by 3 dazes, use this on break bars.
F1 + Hammer 3 if timed perfectly gets you 2 healing leaps which doesn’t stack on healing power
F1 + Hammer 2 gives you healing bolts for stacking support.

I’ll leave you to find out more.

Please note that this build is still theory ^^ I posted for feedback and criticism but I’m glad people have taken inspiration and have decided to try it. I still may tweak the utilities based on what my group provides but this is pretty much my baseline.

I ask again for feedback and criticism and hope people enjoy the build.

Looks interesting though I think that you could dish out more damage with a rifle.

leviathan.2148:

Looks interesting though I think that you could dish out more damage with a rifle.

Just having a quick look at the numbers. CDs and cast times. I’m not that convinced.

Off hand though switching to rifle will mean I lose;

a reflect, whirl finisher, 1s evade. 3 leap finishers. 2s block, 1s aoe stun and an electric field.

Even though auto attacking isn’t ideal with Engi the auto attack gives might and applies vulnerability.

Switching to rifle I gain;

Range. An immobilise. Cone damage with bleed. A knockback and a leap.

Auto attack is slower. Less damage and applies no boons or conditions. 20% projectile finisher.

Additionally rifle has little synergy with the other kits. And wont take advantage of 2 of my traits unless I use it Melee.

This is with out looking at the traits and making changes to suit the rifle. Is there something that I’ve missed? Because currently I still think the hammer not only will deal more damage but also offers better utility.

Rifle dmg is much better when playing close than range, skills 3 and 5 do the most dmg then. The dmg of hammer isn’t that big and its skills have higher cooldowns. Higher cooldown – less dps

EDIT: I like the hammer more though because of its utility It was just a suggestion.

This is with 10% more hammer damage turned off. Numbers are from gw2skills and match up with in game details. calculated against heavy armour. Both weapons are of ascended berserker quality with Sigil of Force.

Hammer 2. 2,690 damage. Reflect. Whirl. 6s CD
Rifle 2. No damage.

Hammer 3. 3,666 damage. 1 sec evade, 3 leaps 10s CD.
Rifle 3 closest range. 2,044 damage, 440 bleed. (Total 2,484). 10s CD.

Hammer 4. 3,055 damage. 2s Block. 10 stacks vulnerability 20s CD.
Rifle 4. 1,277 damage. 15s CD

Hammer 5. 4,410 damage. Lightning field. 24s CD.
Rifle 5. 3449 damage.. Leap finisher. 20s CD.

5 minute damage rotation. Not including AA. adding ‘cast time’ to CD to simulate no damage periods. the rounding the number down.

Hammer 2 deals 112,980
Hammer 3 deals 91,650
Hammer 4 deals 39,715
Hammer 5 deals 52,920
Total damage : 297,265

Rifle 3 deals 69,552
Rifle 4 deals 25,540
Rifle 5 deals 48,286
Total damage : 143,378

This shows hammer deals 153,887 more damage than the rifle per 5 minutes. This is with no auto attack or kits thrown into the rotation.

This is a very simplistic way of comparing the damage and the results wont be as accurate in game. If I’ve made a fundamental mistake somewhere, I would appreciate someone correcting it. Thank you.

EDIT: numbers are from the build editor I used to show the build and I’m trusting that those numbers are correct. This check wasn’t to ‘win’ a point but more my taking your suggestion seriously to check ^^

EDIT2: Checked the numbers with in game readings as I felt the difference was very high, they match up. recalculated the damage under the new variables and added cast time into the equation.

Where did you get those numbers? They seem to be way off o_O

leviathan.2148:

Where did you get those numbers? They seem to be way off o_O

Yeah looking at my findings I have to agree. I was taking numbers from an ascended hammer and when changing to rifle I didn’t change it to ascended rifle or select stats.. Take 2.

Edit: it was also doing it with the hammer. I’ll just wait until I’m home to run the numbers again!

Edited with more accurate numbers. results still show the same. if I’m making an error somewhere, I don’t know where

My bad, I was wrong. The rifle numbers still seem too low to me, but I’m convinced now that hammer is better damage wise. That excites me because it’s a great weapon

leviathan.2148:

My bad, I was wrong. The rifle numbers still seem too low to me, but I’m convinced now that hammer is better damage wise. That excites me because it’s a great weapon

I must agree. I’m shocked by the difference! This is very good news! Glad I looked. Thank you for the feedback.

Hi,

I run this kind of build but some changes.

I get eg instead of nades kit. Because i’m bored to play this kit anymore….

With 5 of eg you get a light field. Then you can combo with 3 of hammer.

And i get sismic turret instead of ft. With this, you have 3 more explosives combo. Then you can healing gyro for getting more protection than with healing turret.

leviathan.2148:

My bad, I was wrong. The rifle numbers still seem too low to me, but I’m convinced now that hammer is better damage wise. That excites me because it’s a great weapon

Which is why I’m afraid it’s going to get nerfed in the name of PvP balance.

Kernell.3197:

Hi,

I run this kind of build but some changes.

I get eg instead of nades kit. Because i’m bored to play this kit anymore….

With 5 of eg you get a light field. Then you can combo with 3 of hammer.

And i get sismic turret instead of ft. With this, you have 3 more explosives combo. Then you can healing gyro for getting more protection than with healing turret.

Sounds interesting. I will look into the turret at least. I like my nades for the vulnerability.

How does the healing Gyro offer more protection though? That adorable little kitten can barely keep up! XD.

3 things:

1) I don’t think strength runes are worth taking over scholar runes for something like this.

2) I’m not sold that the personal dps loss of using bomb kit over elixir gun is justified for a fire field, especially considering how easily a PS war or herald could stack might.

3) Also, while this is a solid build, I don’t think this would really be worth taking over a condi engi unless you just didn’t have any condi gear and your group already has enough condi dps. Considering how expensive and time consuming it is to get vipers gear with sinister trinkets compared to just a straight zerker set, this is totally understandable.

Basically, you can just take the old meta power build (http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Engineer_-_Power_Grenadier), replace the Tools like with Scrapper and then replace Rifle with Hammer.

However, the meta condi build will bring all the fire fields and blast finishers along with higher dps and the ability to take on the red guard in the vale fight.

Dahkeus.8243:

3 things:

1) I don’t think strength runes are worth taking over scholar runes for something like this.

2) I’m not sold that the personal dps loss of using bomb kit over elixir gun is justified for a fire field, especially considering how easily a PS war or herald could stack might.

3) Also, while this is a solid build, I don’t think this would really be worth taking over a condi engi unless you just didn’t have any condi gear and your group already has enough condi dps. Considering how expensive and time consuming it is to get vipers gear with sinister trinkets compared to just a straight zerker set, this is totally understandable.

Basically, you can just take the old meta power build (http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Engineer_-_Power_Grenadier), replace the Tools like with Scrapper and then replace Rifle with Hammer.

However, the meta condi build will bring all the fire fields and blast finishers along with higher dps and the ability to take on the red guard in the vale fight.

I will make the adjustments you’ve suggested. I’ll be honest. I completely overlooked the elixer gun.

I guess I could try runes of the scholar as they are much cheaper and attainable. My main concern is that I may struggle staying over 90% but I guess this is a sort of ‘get gud’ encouragement. Not like I need it with raids.

Changing the grenade trait to glass cannon would support the runes further and the encouragement of staying healthy.

As for condition build. I know it’s there. I know where to find it and I know it’s OP. My guild has too many people jumping on the condition train right now. Also I like to do my own thing than follow the crowd.

Thank you for the input.

Have you guys actually killed Vale Guardian with these builds? Or is this just theorycraft?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Have you guys actually killed Vale Guardian with these builds? Or is this just theorycraft?

Currently theory craft. Though the build is now in practice and is working very well in all other content. So for that I’m happy.

Why do you ask?

Bwadark.2519:

Why do you ask?

I would think it’s pretty important that builds are validated through success.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Bwadark.2519:

Why do you ask?

I would think it’s pretty important that builds are validated through success.

Well then when we down Vale Guardian I will update this post. ^^

I’m sure people will be able to kill Vale Guardian with a build like this, even if they haven’t yet. However, just because you can achieve something with a certain build doesn’t mean that it’s the best build to use for that circumstance.

I totally understand that people hate being pidgeon-holed to meta builds, but this isn’t just some bandwagon people are jumping on because they saw some other cool people doing it. Meta builds become meta builds because they are rigorously theorycrafted and tested to be the most effective for their specific goal.

So yes, you can kill the Vale Guard and probably other bosses with a sub-optimal build, but if you do this, your group will have to work harder to make up for that. Maybe that means they just need to dodge one more red circle, maybe it means they have to deal with more wipes, maybe the difference is so small it’s negligible. No one can quantify this, but the fact still stands that if you bring the most efficient build and gear into a raid, you will maximize the likeliness of success and using anything less decreases that chance.

Whether this is an acceptable risk or not is up to the players and the members of that raid group who are affected by this.

Dahkeus.8243:

Whether this is an acceptable risk or not is up to the players and the members of that raid group who are affected by this.

It is an acceptable risk. As much as I love the theory crafters and what they do. Seeing all these wonderfully structured optimal builds that fall into the ‘meta’ category makes me just die a little inside. As then it’s the expected norm for like you said, perhaps a negligible difference.
(edit: Just want to state for the record we’re not going for a PHIW approach. We have everyone fine tuning their builds and getting as much advice as they can, we play with what we have, and we make it work. We find that fun ^^)

Theory crafting though doesn’t end with the Classes, it goes on to groups. An example based on what is observed. Guardian Tank, Druid Healer, 1 Berserker, 2 Heralds, 3 Condi-engineers, 1 Chronomancer. and whatever else.

These casts out entire classes, let alone builds or gear. Yes it’s the most optimal way and also the highest chance of success. But if I have to leave my girlfriend who is an Elementalist or my best friend who is a Thief, it becomes a no deal.

I apologise, this was off topic, if you wish to continue this send me a message. Back on topic.

As stated above the condition slots have been filled, one by a condi-engineer, already. I do not have vipers gear, but I have Zerker. I would be interest to hear about this build being compared to other power based builds of other classes. How does it match up?

Bwadark.2519:

Dahkeus.8243:

Whether this is an acceptable risk or not is up to the players and the members of that raid group who are affected by this.

It is an acceptable risk. As much as I love the theory crafters and what they do. Seeing all these wonderfully structured optimal builds that fall into the ‘meta’ category makes me just die a little inside. As then it’s the expected norm for like you said, perhaps a negligible difference.
(edit: Just want to state for the record we’re not going for a PHIW approach. We have everyone fine tuning their builds and getting as much advice as they can, we play with what we have, and we make it work. We find that fun ^^)

Theory crafting though doesn’t end with the Classes, it goes on to groups. An example based on what is observed. Guardian Tank, Druid Healer, 1 Berserker, 2 Heralds, 3 Condi-engineers, 1 Chronomancer. and whatever else.

These casts out entire classes, let alone builds or gear. Yes it’s the most optimal way and also the highest chance of success. But if I have to leave my girlfriend who is an Elementalist or my best friend who is a Thief, it becomes a no deal.

I apologise, this was off topic, if you wish to continue this send me a message. Back on topic.

As stated above the condition slots have been filled, one by a condi-engineer, already. I do not have vipers gear, but I have Zerker. I would be interest to hear about this build being compared to other power based builds of other classes. How does it match up?

I will be testing this build over the weekend and will give you full feedback. Ive played almost every possible engi build there is and tested almost everything thrown on this board and always go back to p/p sinister before it was even popular.

Lets go for it

I’m not a fan of the “meta”, because optimistically thinking, only about 5% of players can play it perfectly, which is what is required for it to actually be as good as it is.

Seeing builds like this, makes me happy. I’m gonna try to go for it next raid.

Bwadark.2519:

Dahkeus.8243:

Whether this is an acceptable risk or not is up to the players and the members of that raid group who are affected by this.

It is an acceptable risk. As much as I love the theory crafters and what they do. Seeing all these wonderfully structured optimal builds that fall into the ‘meta’ category makes me just die a little inside. As then it’s the expected norm for like you said, perhaps a negligible difference.
(edit: Just want to state for the record we’re not going for a PHIW approach. We have everyone fine tuning their builds and getting as much advice as they can, we play with what we have, and we make it work. We find that fun ^^)

Theory crafting though doesn’t end with the Classes, it goes on to groups. An example based on what is observed. Guardian Tank, Druid Healer, 1 Berserker, 2 Heralds, 3 Condi-engineers, 1 Chronomancer. and whatever else.

These casts out entire classes, let alone builds or gear. Yes it’s the most optimal way and also the highest chance of success. But if I have to leave my girlfriend who is an Elementalist or my best friend who is a Thief, it becomes a no deal.

I apologise, this was off topic, if you wish to continue this send me a message. Back on topic.

As stated above the condition slots have been filled, one by a condi-engineer, already. I do not have vipers gear, but I have Zerker. I would be interest to hear about this build being compared to other power based builds of other classes. How does it match up?

It’s an acceptable risk to you. If you decide to hardline on this opinion, then I hope you can expect the same resistance that people with a pure meta perspective get all the time.

In the end, a sub-optimal build will decrease your chance of downing a boss, which means that you could end up having to put in more attempts before you see a successful boss kill. If played well, it’s hard to believe that any build would likely be bad enough to completely prevent a boss kill to any group dedicated enough to put in the effort, so that’s not really the issue.

Maybe that chance is so low or other factors, such as the performance of you or your group are such that you don’t actually have to do any more boss attempts than you would have if you had used a better build (of course, this is impossible to prove), but the fact remains:

If you use a better build, you will have better chances of succeeding.

A perfect build will never win a boss fight for you, but if played with equal skill in an equal group, the result’s not really questionable.

Bwadark.2519:

This is with 10% more hammer damage turned off. Numbers are from gw2skills and match up with in game details. calculated against heavy armour. Both weapons are of ascended berserker quality with Sigil of Force.

Hammer 2. 2,690 damage. Reflect. Whirl. 6s CD
Rifle 2. No damage.

Hammer 3. 3,666 damage. 1 sec evade, 3 leaps 10s CD.
Rifle 3 closest range. 2,044 damage, 440 bleed. (Total 2,484). 10s CD.

Hammer 4. 3,055 damage. 2s Block. 10 stacks vulnerability 20s CD.
Rifle 4. 1,277 damage. 15s CD

Hammer 5. 4,410 damage. Lightning field. 24s CD.
Rifle 5. 3449 damage.. Leap finisher. 20s CD.

5 minute damage rotation. Not including AA. adding ‘cast time’ to CD to simulate no damage periods. the rounding the number down.

Hammer 2 deals 112,980
Hammer 3 deals 91,650
Hammer 4 deals 39,715
Hammer 5 deals 52,920
Total damage : 297,265

Rifle 3 deals 69,552
Rifle 4 deals 25,540
Rifle 5 deals 48,286
Total damage : 143,378

This shows hammer deals 153,887 more damage than the rifle per 5 minutes. This is with no auto attack or kits thrown into the rotation.

This is a very simplistic way of comparing the damage and the results wont be as accurate in game. If I’ve made a fundamental mistake somewhere, I would appreciate someone correcting it. Thank you.

EDIT: numbers are from the build editor I used to show the build and I’m trusting that those numbers are correct. This check wasn’t to ‘win’ a point but more my taking your suggestion seriously to check ^^

EDIT2: Checked the numbers with in game readings as I felt the difference was very high, they match up. recalculated the damage under the new variables and added cast time into the equation.

your results look fine, but your argument is fundamentally flwed — you arent considering the time spent on hammer vs the time spent on rifle. with pure damage numbers, of course hammer comes out ahead by ____ over 5 minutes.

on hammer you use 4 skills, which means around 1 sec cast time (2 sec for 4) for every skill, so in 5 minutes you have spent 42 + 30 + 30 + 12 = 1 min 52 sec (40% of your casting time) on hammer skills.

on rifle (traited) you use 2 skills with around 1 sec cast time (because no you do NOT use 4 in a dps rotation, you only use it when you need cc because it stuns you for 2 sec), so in 5 minutes youve spent 37 + 18 = 55 sec (20% of your casting time) on rifle skills. (untraited: 30 + 15 = 45 sec, 15% of your time).

considering that you spent around twice the time to get around twice the damage… it looks like nearly a wash without hashing out the numbers exactly. with a slight advantage to hammer, because you really really really need to get rifle 4 out of these calculations. but rifle leaves you with 2 on demand ccs that arent part of your rotation and is ranged, while hammer offers an evade and a block (but by saving them for when you need, you are inherently not optimizing dps because the missed casts will add up and get replaced by autoattacks in the rotation somewhere which are worse than nonautoattack skills. ignoring alacrity, of course).

hammer depends on hammer for a lot of dps. rifle depends on kits for a lot of dps. thats the takeaway.

Allie.4925:

I’m not a fan of the “meta”, because optimistically thinking, only about 5% of players can play it perfectly, which is what is required for it to actually be as good as it is.

You just drop fire fields on cooldown while trying to maximize your shrapnel grenades per minute.

What’s hard to understand?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Allie.4925:

I’m not a fan of the “meta”, because optimistically thinking, only about 5% of players can play it perfectly, which is what is required for it to actually be as good as it is.

You just drop fire fields on cooldown while trying to maximize your shrapnel grenades per minute.

What’s hard to understand?

Well, to do it well, it’s a bit more than that, lol.

However, if you watch the videos of people who’ve cleared bosses on engineer, you’ll see that it’s not only rare for people to pull off the rotation very well, but also not necessary.

Example: World first Vale Guard from Engi PoV – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8AKNIO_q2Q&feature=youtu.be

insanemaniac.2456:

hammer depends on hammer for a lot of dps. rifle depends on kits for a lot of dps. thats the takeaway.

Aye. I’ve come to that conclusion a few days ago. Though over the weekend or later tonight, if I’m not too tired. I will be looking at damage rotations. I don’t think the kits are that important in this build, as you said.

I’m aware of the flawed premise as my calculations were only to show that the hammer is a more damaging weapon than rifle ‘without kits’. The rifle has it’s uses but I don’t think it’ll increase my DPS. W

ith the idea that I’ll be able to drop some kits, thus simplifying the damage rotation reduces the room for error. Thank you for your feedback.

Phineas Poe.3018:

You just drop fire fields on cooldown while trying to maximize your shrapnel grenades per minute.

What’s hard to understand?

The build itself is advertised with a 37 step damage rotation not including the buttons pressed for weapon swaps.

Which mean all the damage calculations and claims that this build can do are based around the rotation?

Ignoring that rotation and spamming shrapnel grenades whenever possible, surely that lowers the optimised DPS and the ‘most damaging build’ loses it’s claim?

Also in terms of ’what’s hard to understand’, again the build is advertised with a 37 step damage rotation and emphasises on cycling through all your kits and using the high damage abilities.

You are literally the only person that has ever said, fire fields, nades press 2.

Bwadark.2519:

Phineas Poe.3018:

You just drop fire fields on cooldown while trying to maximize your shrapnel grenades per minute.

What’s hard to understand?

The build itself is advertised with a 37 step damage rotation not including the buttons pressed for weapon swaps.

Which mean all the damage calculations and claims that this build can do are based around the rotation?

Ignoring that rotation and spamming shrapnel grenades whenever possible, surely that lowers the optimised DPS and the ‘most damaging build’ loses it’s claim?

Also in terms of ’what’s hard to understand’, again the build is advertised with a 37 step damage rotation and emphasises on cycling through all your kits and using the high damage abilities.

You are literally the only person that has ever said, fire fields, nades press 2.

That 37 step damage rotation is spreadsheet DPS. No one will be able to actually mimic that rotation in an actual fight, and Nike said that himself when he originally put out the video where that rotation was pulled from.

Almost all of your sustained damage comes from burns and bleeds. That means Blowtorch, Fire Bomb, Napalm, Incendiary Ammo, Shrapnel Grenade, and Grenade Barrage.

Using things like Poison Dart Volley and Gas Grenade are filler skills used between Shrapnel Grenade. Don’t get it twisted; your damage is all coming from your burns and bleeds, and that “optimal” rotation deals only fractionally more damage than if you just auto-attacked between the skills I listed above.

Really, too many people overthink this stuff. It’s 2x Shrapnel Grenades for every Fire Bomb, slotting Napalm and Blowtorch in as they come up. I’m tired of the stigma surrounding the condition build, because it only further incentivizes threads like these to come up, where people say only “5%” can do the build correctly.

I taught two fresh engineers the build using this exact advice, and two hours later we killed the Vale Guardian with 1:30 remaining on the clock. One of them was using exotic armor and trinkets.

I’m like okay get the rotation going… crap hit this one too soon. Now what… okay we can fill it with this with #1 on pistol. Wait.. no you shouldn’t be using that much or at all. Okay this one’s up… rotation is messed up.

The raid is looking at me.

How did they know? Oh god, I’m speaking out loud with auto-talk on in the channel.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I taught two fresh engineers the build using this exact advice, and two hours later we killed the Vale Guardian with 1:30 remaining on the clock. One of them was using exotic armor and trinkets.

Well everything is easy to learn when you have a teacher with you. I’ll admit I’ve not seen the video, only the build. A guild member is using it and he feels like he has to remain really focused.

I will pass on this advice to him and hope it helps him. Anyway. I don’t want to derail this thread into a discussion about the well known condition build so I would prefer it ends here.

This build wouldn’t be as damaging as p/p but it’s a good power alternative. I will ask if anyone could compared it to other classes power build instead of the engineer condition.