Guild Wars 2

Let me elaborate for those who aren’t familiar with what I mean:

Classes are divided into different levels of base health.

Right now, Warriors and Necros have the highest tier of health, the medium tier consists of Engis/Rangers/Mesmers, and the lowest tier consists of Guardians/Thieves/Elementalists.

My question is: Should Engineers be raised up to the next Health tier?

I think they should, and hear me out before you tell me to “L2P nub”.

1. Our builds tend to involve directly tanking damage

The most popular armor set for our class to use is, of course, Rabid, which boosts Toughness. The most popular trait line for our class is Alchemy, which boosts Vitality. One of our perks, Juggernaut, gives 200 toughness while wielding the flamethrower. Of course, not EVERYBODY uses one of those, but many people do.

2. We usually need to be up close

Most of our weapons and kits are close-to-mid-range, which puts us in a position where the enemy can easily fight back and damage us. Our only real long range option takes immense skill to use properly at its maximum range.

3. We’re limited in options for escape

Yes, we have Elixir S, Rocket Boots, Slick Shoes, and Super Speed (which is broken, by the way), but we’re still not that mobile. Slick Shoes can be easily avoided by someone who pays attention, and Rocket Boots doesn’t get you that far. Elixir S doesn’t last very long. Our class depends more on taking damage than running away.

4. A health increase by one tier wouldn’t make a huge difference

We all know how fast health drops in this game. I’ve had fights in Planetside 2 that took longer. This change would be a minor buff at best.

5. This change would allow for the Ele to be moved up to the 2nd tier

The Elementalist is largely in the same boat as the Engineer. I think a health buff for them is deserved as well, and by moving the Engineer up, we would free a spot for them in the 2nd tier.

What do you think?

Personally, I’m of the opinion that we should have been a Soldier class, but that’s not really an option at this point. This is a much more likely change.

Guardians have a lower base health pool than engineers. Yes, the original engineer concept was as a heavy armor profession, but we were moved to adventurer because we had so many survival tools at our disposal already.

Hmm i was going to preemptively say L2P nub , but after “hearing you out” we could use that next tier since we must be in so close at more times than not , but its definitely not a neccessity. Does make sense so kudos to you

VIVorcha.7853:

Let me elaborate for those who aren’t familiar with what I mean:

Classes are divided into different levels of base health.

Right now, Warriors and Necros have the highest tier of health, the medium tier consists of Engis/Rangers/Mesmers, and the lowest tier consists of Guardians/Thieves/Elementalists.

My question is: Should Engineers be raised up to the next Health tier?

I think they should, and hear me out before you tell me to “L2P nub”.

1. Our builds tend to involve directly tanking damage

The most popular armor set for our class to use is, of course, Rabid, which boosts Toughness. The most popular trait line for our class is Alchemy, which boosts Vitality. One of our perks, Juggernaut, gives 200 toughness while wielding the flamethrower. Of course, not EVERYBODY uses one of those, but many people do.

2. We usually need to be up close

Most of our weapons and kits are close-to-mid-range, which puts us in a position where the enemy can easily fight back and damage us. Our only real long range option takes immense skill to use properly at its maximum range.

3. We’re limited in options for escape

Yes, we have Elixir S, Rocket Boots, Slick Shoes, and Super Speed (which is broken, by the way), but we’re still not that mobile. Slick Shoes can be easily avoided by someone who pays attention, and Rocket Boots doesn’t get you that far. Elixir S doesn’t last very long. Our class depends more on taking damage than running away.

What do you think?

Personally, I’m of the opinion that we should have been a Soldier class, but that’s not really an option at this point. This is a much more likely change.

I am assuming this is from a pvp (I include both sPvP and WvW in this since you play against other people) perspective? I will say that with the amount of dodges we can have through on demand vigor, blinds, blocks, and other general control options, engineer has more than enough active defenses to stay in close pretty comfortably. Now if we are talking tourney pvp, options become more limited obviously because meta dictates the way you build as part of your team. But as balance patch changes classes, so to does the meta shift. It’s primarily why I don’t do a lot of tourney pvp and prefer to solo/small group roam in WvW where we are more free to exercise build choice. But engi does have plenty of ways to keep themselves alive.

Personally i think the only class that NEEDS more health is Ele, either that or buff the damage up because currently they nerfed all the damage and didnt counter that by increasing health or armor or anything.

They used to be a sort of Magic Thief – high damage, low health. Now they ar low damage and low health.

I’m going to agree with @ArmageddonAsh. Only Elementalists need more HP since their healing was nerfed and boon based survivability is now highly counterable.

@VIVorcha:
I’m going to say no.

More health does NOT equal to more survivability.

Look at Warrior and Necromancer before the June 25th patch that pushed it over the edge and tell me that having the most health in the game makes you any more survivable. It simply is not true.

More dodges, more protection uptime, more condition clear and more heals does make you more survivable. June 25th introduced the possibility of Protection uptime for Necromancers for Spectrals and added changes to DS to turn them into tanky monsters. Warrior’s Healing signet was pushed through the roof at 400HPS + Adrenal Health which is ~300HP/3sec or ~100HPS along with buffs to their condi clear. Look where these classes are now and tell me that having high health before these changes made them mad tanky.

Right now Engineers have a good amount of dodges and mobility (Speedy Kits/Invigorating speed), excellent heals (best in the game), but poor Protection uptime (Unless you’re CC’d, but then you die to pressure anyway) and poor Condition clear outside of Elixir builds (This needs to change).

If anything, traits should be introduced that give the Condition clear that was lost to multikit builds through Kit Refinement back. Multikit lost Cleansing Flame and Super Elixir when KR was nerfed into the ground and 4kit has been weak to condis ever since.

As for condi clear through heals, Healing Turret was buffed, but the current state of condis means that if you can only clear 2 every 15-20, you’ll likely die anyway unless you have other methods of condi clear or can escape. Medkit sucks for condi clear because it only clears 1 and can’t be used when immobilised. Elixir H clears 2 but only with CF409 at which point you should be running 2+ elixirs anyway.

I’d be in favour of Transmute being turned from a stupid 8% RNG proc into Transmuting 1 condition into a boon with Toolbelt ability use once per 15-20 seconds; and Gadgets receiving a trait that makes Gadgets clear 1-2 conditions on activation as well.

As for Protection, something other than Elixir H should be able to generate it. Perhaps a trait that gives 3-5 seconds of Protection every time a turret is destroyed or Detonated at Master level.

Engineer also lacks reliable Stability ever since Juggernaut was crushed. Elixir S and B changes in October will do much to bring this back but once again it seems that all the good stuff goes to Elixirs. Thumper Turret’s 1 second Stability is only good for a reprieve from stun chains – but Skullcrack comes back up in 8 seconds whilst Rumble comes back in 45 seconds. Gadgets still lack a source of Stability through skills or traits; whilst Kits are way too versatile to justify giving them the most powerful boon in the game to the most CC vulnerable class in the game.

I’m just gonna leave this here: http://i.imgur.com/mJNbAeS.jpg

it adds nothing to the discussion and my hp could be even higher. guild hp buffs and triple bloodlust for laughs.

please continue.

@Maskaganda:
My god, Dire is broken as kitten.

How many 1vX have you won off the back of that? I’ve seen OstrichEggs crush fools with it on stream, but seeing the stats is something else.

it’s not dire, it’s a mix of carrion and rabid with all the possible ascended gear plus triple bloodlust and +hp guild buffs. still an obscene ammount of hp :p

No.
I’d rather want to see some tweaks on our active defensive skills. Like:

-Elixir S cooldown reduced to 45 secs
-Rocket boots becoming stunbreaker, cooldown increased to 30ish secs
-More condi cleanse outside elixirs

I think engies are in a fairly good place atm when it comes to avoiding damage. +3k hp would definitely be too much, in my opinion.

@Noss:
Engineer heals are the some of the best in the game, hands down. The only heals that come close are that of Ranger, but they’ve received nerfs in the past whilst our heals have only had buffs by and large. Aside from that stealth nerf of Drop Antidote.

Med Kit is the highest HPS in the game for raw healing i believe, and comes with free Fury and Swiftness. Healing Turret is a really good spike heal and since its changes it is now “good enough” at condi clear that CF409 is no longer mandatory. Elixir H has always been good and is the best spike heal for the Engineer that also has RNG boons. (Bonus!)

The only changes I’d like to see to Engineer at this point is adding Master level + traits for Turrets and Gadgets to give them the option of condi clear or at least some interaction with condis, and for the access of Stability beyond Elixirs and Elixir X. Perhaps through a GM trait that replaces some of the really really bad ones we have.

VIVorcha.7853:

1. Our builds tend to involve directly tanking damage

The most popular armor set for our class to use is, of course, Rabid, which boosts Toughness. The most popular trait line for our class is Alchemy, which boosts Vitality. One of our perks, Juggernaut, gives 200 toughness while wielding the flamethrower. Of course, not EVERYBODY uses one of those, but many people do.

I’m not sure where you get the idea that Rabid is “of course” the most popular armor set, but even if it was, what makes it appealing is not its Toughness but that it has Condition Damage as a primary stat along with Precision. Wearing Rabid is not making the statement that you are building to tank damage so much as that you want to have high Condition Damage while not having paper plates for armor as you do with Rampager. In WvW, it’s really the only sensible option for Condi builds, especially since so many conditions include on-crit procs. Dire and Carrion both have their uses, but Rabid is not a choice out of prioritizing defense.

The same could be said for Juggernaut and its Might stacking or the popularity of Alchemy. People don’t put 20-30 points into Alchemy solely for Vitality but usually to get HGH or Deadly Mixture.

If ArenaNet moved Deadly Mixture into a different tree, I would drop Alchemy in a heartbeat. And I’m sure many other builds would follow-suit if the same happened to HGH.

So to answer your question:

VIVorcha.7853:

My question is: Should Engineers be raised up to the next Health tier?

No.

I still think we are more than fine in PvP/WvW. We may not have a clear-cut and obvious role in zergs, but how many 1vX videos do you need to watch before you accept that Engineers are fantastic roamers?

And if you have trouble dying in PvE as an Engineer even in full Rampager or Berserker, that really is a L2P issue. Sorry.

MonMalthias.4763:

@Noss:
Engineer heals are the some of the best in the game, hands down. The only heals that come close are that of Ranger, but they’ve received nerfs in the past whilst our heals have only had buffs by and large. Aside from that stealth nerf of Drop Antidote.

Med Kit is the highest HPS in the game for raw healing i believe, and comes with free Fury and Swiftness. Healing Turret is a really good spike heal and since its changes it is now “good enough” at condi clear that CF409 is no longer mandatory. Elixir H has always been good and is the best spike heal for the Engineer that also has RNG boons. (Bonus!)

The only changes I’d like to see to Engineer at this point is adding Master level + traits for Turrets and Gadgets to give them the option of condi clear or at least some interaction with condis, and for the access of Stability beyond Elixirs and Elixir X. Perhaps through a GM trait that replaces some of the really really bad ones we have.

I’m sorry, but you can’t compare skills JUST by looking at numbers in a game like GW2.

Medkit forces you to switch weapons entirely, use three skills, and switch back, not to mention that you receive no benefit from the heals unless you run over them physically. That takes more time out of the fight for you than any other healing skill.

Healing Turret is good, except that the overcharge was implemented really badly and the skill isn’t even used for its intended purpose. You get more healing by dropping, overcharging, and detonating than by leaving it down, which is a bad design.

Elixir H is decent, but the other professions have so much better options. Shelter, for instance, blocks you while healing. Consume Conditions strips all your conditions to heal you, and is one reason our condition builds are a joke against Necromancers.

MonMalthias.4763:

@Noss:
Engineer heals are the some of the best in the game, hands down. The only heals that come close are that of Ranger, but they’ve received nerfs in the past whilst our heals have only had buffs by and large. Aside from that stealth nerf of Drop Antidote.

Med Kit is the highest HPS in the game for raw healing i believe, and comes with free Fury and Swiftness. Healing Turret is a really good spike heal and since its changes it is now “good enough” at condi clear that CF409 is no longer mandatory. Elixir H has always been good and is the best spike heal for the Engineer that also has RNG boons. (Bonus!)

The only changes I’d like to see to Engineer at this point is adding Master level + traits for Turrets and Gadgets to give them the option of condi clear or at least some interaction with condis, and for the access of Stability beyond Elixirs and Elixir X. Perhaps through a GM trait that replaces some of the really really bad ones we have.

Sorry, I’m not sure why you’re saying that to me. I didn’t say anything about heals.

VIVorcha.7853:

Elixir H is decent, but the other professions have so much better options. Shelter, for instance, blocks you while healing.

Shelter also has a longer cooldown, heals for less, and scales worse with Healing Power than Elixir H does. It also cannot be traited to remove boons on enemies (tossed) or conditions on yourself/allies.

As much as I love my Guardian, their healing skills are garbage compared to what Engineers have. You have to put ten points into Radiance just so that Signet of Resolve doesn’t have a forty second cooldown.

Phineas Poe.3018:

VIVorcha.7853:

Elixir H is decent, but the other professions have so much better options. Shelter, for instance, blocks you while healing.

Shelter also has a longer cooldown, heals for less, and scales worse with Healing Power than Elixir H does. It also cannot be traited to remove boons on enemies (tossed) or conditions on yourself/allies.

As much as I love my Guardian, their healing skills are garbage compared to what Engineers have. You have to put ten points into Radiance just so that Signet of Resolve doesn’t have a forty second cooldown.

We don’t have signets.

Your life is soooo hard.

VIVorcha.7853:

Phineas Poe.3018:

VIVorcha.7853:

Elixir H is decent, but the other professions have so much better options. Shelter, for instance, blocks you while healing.

Shelter also has a longer cooldown, heals for less, and scales worse with Healing Power than Elixir H does. It also cannot be traited to remove boons on enemies (tossed) or conditions on yourself/allies.

As much as I love my Guardian, their healing skills are garbage compared to what Engineers have. You have to put ten points into Radiance just so that Signet of Resolve doesn’t have a forty second cooldown.

We don’t have signets.

Your life is soooo hard.

I am confused by this response.

You are the one complaining about how much better other classes apparently have it. Not me.

Phineas Poe.3018:

VIVorcha.7853:

Phineas Poe.3018:

VIVorcha.7853:

Elixir H is decent, but the other professions have so much better options. Shelter, for instance, blocks you while healing.

Shelter also has a longer cooldown, heals for less, and scales worse with Healing Power than Elixir H does. It also cannot be traited to remove boons on enemies (tossed) or conditions on yourself/allies.

As much as I love my Guardian, their healing skills are garbage compared to what Engineers have. You have to put ten points into Radiance just so that Signet of Resolve doesn’t have a forty second cooldown.

We don’t have signets.

Your life is soooo hard.

I am confused by this response.

You are the one complaining about how much better other classes apparently have it. Not me.

You complain about how bad Signet of Resolve is for the Guardian.

Engineers don’t have signets at all.

Your life as a Guardian is so difficult.

VIVorcha.7853:

Phineas Poe.3018:

VIVorcha.7853:

Phineas Poe.3018:

VIVorcha.7853:

Elixir H is decent, but the other professions have so much better options. Shelter, for instance, blocks you while healing.

Shelter also has a longer cooldown, heals for less, and scales worse with Healing Power than Elixir H does. It also cannot be traited to remove boons on enemies (tossed) or conditions on yourself/allies.

As much as I love my Guardian, their healing skills are garbage compared to what Engineers have. You have to put ten points into Radiance just so that Signet of Resolve doesn’t have a forty second cooldown.

We don’t have signets.

Your life is soooo hard.

I am confused by this response.

You are the one complaining about how much better other classes apparently have it. Not me.

You complain about how bad Signet of Resolve is for the Guardian.

Engineers don’t have signets at all.

Your life as a Guardian is so difficult.

Most signets are pretty awful, and I’m happy that engineers don’t have em.

I don’t see how we’re lacking in survivability enough to justify this kind of buff. And I don’t see it as very minor, considering the amount of health we can already obtain with Carrion/Dire and other combinations while still maintaining respectable or even awesome toughness.

The only way this argument has merit is to ask the question:

Is our class too fragile for its role?

Does anyone honestly think the answer to that question is yes?

Also, I think saying the Engineer is lacking in escapes is over simplifying the issue by taking each skill in a vacuum. Are you honestly saying that Rocket Boots + Elixir S (or Toss Elixir S + Rocket Boots, if the sitaution demands… or you get lucky with stealth) isn’t amazing? This is an especially great escape combo with the upcoming change to Toss Elixir S.

Now throw in Gear Shield, Box of Nails, Slick Shoes (which was mentioned, but again, in a vacuum), Jump Shot, Glue Shot, and Acid Bomb to name a few. That’s not to mention our myriad of knockbacks, blowbacks, and launch skills that can be combined with any number of escapes to make our class one of the most trolly next to Thieves.

In short, this change isn’t necessary. We have issues as a class, but durability and escapes aren’t at the top of the list.

VIVorcha.7853:

Phineas Poe.3018:

VIVorcha.7853:

Phineas Poe.3018:

VIVorcha.7853:

Elixir H is decent, but the other professions have so much better options. Shelter, for instance, blocks you while healing.

Shelter also has a longer cooldown, heals for less, and scales worse with Healing Power than Elixir H does. It also cannot be traited to remove boons on enemies (tossed) or conditions on yourself/allies.

As much as I love my Guardian, their healing skills are garbage compared to what Engineers have. You have to put ten points into Radiance just so that Signet of Resolve doesn’t have a forty second cooldown.

We don’t have signets.

Your life is soooo hard.

I am confused by this response.

You are the one complaining about how much better other classes apparently have it. Not me.

You complain about how bad Signet of Resolve is for the Guardian.

Engineers don’t have signets at all.

Your life as a Guardian is so difficult.

My “life as a Guardian” isn’t difficult at all, but that has very little to do with my healing skills.

It has more to do with the fact that they have amazing projectile wall skills, regular access to Protection with the Hammer, a ton of blinds and blocks with a Sword/Focus, and Aegis. If you want my honest opinion, I think Guardians have some of the worst healing skills across the entire game, but that’s largely because their Virtues and utility skills make up the difference.

The purpose of my post was simply to establish that basis, and not to complain that my “life as a Guardian” is in any way difficult or worth complaining about. Though I will say that surviving as a Berserker Engineer is much easier, primarily due to Guardians so frequently pulling aggro.

I have no large problem staying alive with either class, however, when playing in dungeons or fractals, which is why I told you that dying in PvE is an issue suffered by the inexperienced. You just need to be more comfortable with the content.

In PvP/WvW that is a different story, but I think Engineers have large enough health pools when wearing the proper armor insignia.

We are fine as is.

Brenil.8957:

Is our class too fragile for its role?

Does anyone honestly think the answer to that question is no?

I do!
I guess you meant “Does anyone honestly think the answer to that question is yes?”

Oops. Missed that. Thanks for the correction.

Noss.4105:

Brenil.8957:

Is our class too fragile for its role?

Does anyone honestly think the answer to that question is no?

I do!
I guess you meant “Does anyone honestly think the answer to that question is yes?”

I would argue that yes, we are too fragile, given our role as close-to-mid attackers and our lack of reliable long range weaponry.

Remember that we were originally supposed to be Soldiers. Our class was designed at least partially with heavy armor in mind.

VIVorcha.7853:

Noss.4105:

Brenil.8957:

Is our class too fragile for its role?

Does anyone honestly think the answer to that question is no?

I do!
I guess you meant “Does anyone honestly think the answer to that question is yes?”

I would argue that yes, we are too fragile, given our role as close-to-mid attackers and our lack of reliable long range weaponry.

Remember that we were originally supposed to be Soldiers. Our class was designed at least partially with heavy armor in mind.

I guess we have agree to disagree, then.

MonMalthias.4763:

I’m going to agree with @ArmageddonAsh. Only Elementalists need more HP since their healing was nerfed and boon based survivability is now highly counterable.

@VIVorcha:
I’m going to say no.

More health does NOT equal to more survivability.

Look at Warrior and Necromancer before the June 25th patch that pushed it over the edge and tell me that having the most health in the game makes you any more survivable. It simply is not true.

that’s not a good argument considering necromancers have the survivability of a roach under a boot. necromancer has almost no escapes, if not none. no stability and are always focused. warrior has craptons of stability, is heavy armor so higher base armor, and endure pain. necromancer has death shrough i guess.

Meanwhile Ele’s in the corner sobbing uncontrollably while reading this thread lol.

Knote.2904:

Meanwhile Ele’s in the corner sobbing uncontrollably while reading this thread lol.

they shouldn’t be. one of the most survivable classes in the game.

I want to say yes, but at the same time I can hold a point solo in sPvP against 3 enemies at once. More health is just going to make me even more of an unbeatable beast at bunkering.

Engineers have protection/more ranged (they don’t need to stand in the fray.)/more access to vigor and dodges and evasion.

Necromancers don’t have Vigor.
Warriors don’t have Protection.

Eh lets not talk about the current state warriors.

@Lightsbane:
I’m surprised that more Necros aren’t taking Foot in the Grave given the predominance of CC Warriors, because it’s pretty strong and can break the stun train; something that Engineers still can’t do.

With regards to Elementalist; its survivability previously was through boons, 2+ Cantrips to shut down CC trains, and the OP Signet of Restoration. Now that Boon hate is so predominant – Corrupt boon will destroy you – and condi-burst places so many different condis on you that crushes cleansing capability – Ele survivability is very low. Previously Ele could stay engaged in the fight with all those Cantrips and Boons with the possibility of escape if RtL was held in reserve, but all the changes combined have made it very difficult to live.

The only counter-build I’ve seen is CmC running Soldier’s amulet with Rock solid and 20 in Earth to get Stability to combo with Ether Renewal in a D/D setup. Even so, that is not reliable because it is such a long channel, one can easily take more damage trying to heal than Renewal restores.

The comments made about Warriors by Daecollo are also interesting because the complaints about Warriors were never about their lack of boon based survivability or their damage – it was always their poor condition management and the propensity for melee to be easily kited through Chill, Cripple and Immobilise; if not outright Pushback, Stun, Launch and other control effects.

The latest round of changes introduced Cleansing Ire – the strongest condition clear in the game. With the right build – assuming you take either AoE to get hits off on multiple targets to gain lots of Adrenaline; or multi-hit skills – you can easily cleanse 3 conditions ~10-15 seconds. Added to that Berserker stance and the 400HPS healing Signet, it is clear that Warriors do not need Protection. Their Stability uptime is also amongst the best in the game, short of Guardian.

You can bet that as soon as Healing Signet is nerfed – and you can bet that it will be “shaved” – Warrior survivability will go down significantly because they will begin to feel the effects of chip damage from auto-attacks and incidental condi application once again; and the low uptime of Stances will begin to show its weaknesses.

With regard to Necro, its survivability after the changes was due to the addition of massive massive counterpressure. Dhuumfire procs being then covered with a Signet of Spite usage into a Terror empowered Fear chain +/- condi burst through Marks ended up with overwhelming Offense overtaking Defense. Protection uptime through Spectrals didn’t hurt either. You don’t need Vigor and dodges or escapes if you can simply turn and kill your assailant. The only weakness was overwhelming CC, which Warriors brought, and which is now coming to the forefront.

So at the end of all this it should be clear that “survivability” is not a function of health, but a value of defensive power through Condition clear, healing, CC mitigation and/or overwhelming offense.

Buffing Engineer’s HP addresses nothing of the above 4 parameters and in the case of overwhelming offense – it can put Engineer out of balance to have extra HP as a contingency when running something very glassy.

Perfectly fine with my healthpool.

But if ANet wants to give me 20k base HP, I’m all for it.

In 1638 hours on my Engi I haven’t run into a problem that would be solved by having more health. I think we’re fine in the health pool tier we currently occupy.

No reason for higher health pool and engi’s traits/skills have far more pressing issues than our health pool.