Guild Wars 2

I’m not sure what the devs are planning for my favorite class (this one, the engineer), but I’m wondering if the grenade kit should just go away now.

Hear me out:

We have so many kits and gizmos to choose from. Each fulfills a particular function. FT is good medium-range AoE. Elixir is good support and conditions. Bombs are good PBAoE. Tools are ok melee and defense. And then there’s grenades and mortar kit.

Whenever I equip one or the other, I get them confused. Poison field, chilling field, and so on. They’re basically the exact same thing functionality-wise, only with differing ranges and attack speeds. Why not just put everything into one or the other kit and let us have a free slot?

Pick one, make it 1500 range. Make the damage and radius the average of the two. Choose the fire damage or the healing field.

As an engineer, I can’t imagine why I would have created two kits that do virtually the same thing but with only slight modifications. As an asura, I imagine my race laughing at me for the inefficiency of it all.

And, if anything else, could you please put the types of effects in the same order for each kit!?!?

Thoughts?

Grenade kit needs some work. It was superior at one point in both condi and crit mode, but since that mega distance nerf on grenades I have found them to be just about useless. The mortar gets the job done for hitting people that are really far away like nades used to. Also the fact that grenades no longer have a combo field effect attached to them makes them way less fun to use. They have been tweaked to failure is what happened. The first thing they need to fix on grenades will be the range. After that the accuracy needs even more improving. That accuracy skill is just about useless to the next degree.

So it would be sorry to see grenades go, but at this rate I wouldn’t miss it much because of how drastic the other changes have been lately. Almost want to stop playing until they calm down with all this new build crafting changes. Its expensive to raise new armor and accessories because they feel the need to keep changing things every other week. I don’t mind change, but its something drastic almost every other week that causes a player to have to change their armor and play style.

paladinecho.3024:

Grenade kit needs some work. It was superior at one point in both condi and crit mode, but since that mega distance nerf on grenades I have found them to be just about useless.

Yet Chaith used them in the winning WTS team.

paladinecho.3024:

Grenade kit needs some work. It was superior at one point in both condi and crit mode, but since that mega distance nerf on grenades I have found them to be just about useless. The mortar gets the job done for hitting people that are really far away like nades used to. Also the fact that grenades no longer have a combo field effect attached to them makes them way less fun to use. They have been tweaked to failure is what happened. The first thing they need to fix on grenades will be the range. After that the accuracy needs even more improving. That accuracy skill is just about useless to the next degree.

So it would be sorry to see grenades go, but at this rate I wouldn’t miss it much because of how drastic the other changes have been lately. Almost want to stop playing until they calm down with all this new build crafting changes. Its expensive to raise new armor and accessories because they feel the need to keep changing things every other week. I don’t mind change, but its something drastic almost every other week that causes a player to have to change their armor and play style.

Are you serious? There are very, VERY, few good Engineer builds that have not mandated the grenade kit in WvW, PvE and PvP.

Since release.

And that has not changed. You may not like or enjoy using the kit—lord knows I do not—but to assert that it is “just about useless” misses the mark almost completely.

lorddarkflare.9186:

You may not like or enjoy using the kit—lord knows I do not—

Isn’t that the over-arching point of it all? Considering this is a game, shouldn’t it be enjoyable/fun?

Grenade kit just isn’t fun anymore. It’s redundant.

I love grenades. Always did still do.

There are plenty of differences in usage between grenades and mortar so i see no reason to cut one.

Elias.3204:

lorddarkflare.9186:

You may not like or enjoy using the kit—lord knows I do not—

Isn’t that the over-arching point of it all? Considering this is a game, shouldn’t it be enjoyable/fun?

Grenade kit just isn’t fun anymore. It’s redundant.

How is it redundant when the leading engi PvP player uses it, and when it is part of the highest ranked engi meta build on meta battle? The fact that you might not personally like it doesn’t make it redundant or functionally poor.

Elias.3204:

lorddarkflare.9186:

You may not like or enjoy using the kit—lord knows I do not—

Isn’t that the over-arching point of it all? Considering this is a game, shouldn’t it be enjoyable/fun?

Grenade kit just isn’t fun anymore. It’s redundant.

I dislike the grenade kit because it is too good.

The mortar kit does not even come close to it in terms of effectiveness.

If anything, the mortar kit is “redundant”.

lorddarkflare.9186:

Elias.3204:

lorddarkflare.9186:

You may not like or enjoy using the kit—lord knows I do not—

Isn’t that the over-arching point of it all? Considering this is a game, shouldn’t it be enjoyable/fun?

Grenade kit just isn’t fun anymore. It’s redundant.

I dislike the grenade kit because it is too good.

The mortar kit does not even come close to it in terms of effectiveness.

If anything, the mortar kit is “redundant”.

What? I can’t even take it off from my skill bar. The aoe blind + freeze + poison is awesome. And I almost forgot about the water field and blast.

Grenades in the other hand (not talking about pve here), need a lot of cc and traits just to be useful.

I feel like I’ve stepped into some sort of portal to another world. Since when are grenades not good!? Across all game modes the Grenade Kit is the most beneficial and appears in the most good, working, and popular builds.

Yeah sure, Mortar is a bit redundant. Both weapons fill different roles but they apply a lot of the same conditions and they just feel similar. I get that, but in no universe does that mean grenades should “just go away”.

Look, I’m as sick of them as anyone. I have every hope that Forge creates real viable competition to the Grenade Kit and kits as a whole. Until then just being tired of something doesn’t change the fact that it’s the best. There’s a reason we’re all tired of it, because it’s so good it’s always on our bar.

For condi damage currently grenades are better then mortar, they still provide 3 stacks bleeding, 3 stacks poison and work great with shrapnel because you throw 3 grenades and so you have 3x the chance of 15%. So with grenades you have a 38,58% percentage for additional 20sec of bleeding. While on mortar it’s only 15% (Yay finally stochastic in school had some sense)

They maybe should change it so that Mortar and Bombs get a higher chance then grenades to trigger it.

I currently use both in my hybrid build. But I use the grenades more offensively to higher direct and condi damage. With the bleeding, freeze and poison grenades I total deal about 3~4k direct damage. (If all grenades hit) + grenadebarrage of 6~9k damage.
On top still 3 stacks of the conditions.

Only when it comes to large scale fights where opponents have retaliation I use mortar. Mortar is more a utility kit for me. 2x Blast with F5, Blind-, Chill-, and Waterfield. Usually I mostly use poisonf field only when someone goes into downstate so opponents cant res him easily. F5 can be easily evaded and deals 3k damage twice on my hybrid build, while other skills deal 1~2k damage. But yeah if you have to go max range mortar is your kit.

I’m fine how they currently works, but I would like to see mortar’s blind field to be a smoke field instead of light. Also the poison field could get a little buff like longer poison duration or 2 stacks per pulse.

Wow this is such a weird alternate universe tread right here.

Ya for sure. Grenade is part of most of the best build in PvE, PvP and WvW. Pretty much all the best engineer in WTS play grenade,but sure why not say that grenade is bad.

Grenade is a bit too powerful since day one compare to other kit. This begin to be less the case, flamethrower and bomb have a it more use these day, but they are still not equal. The fact that some people don’t like grenade doesn’t mean that it should be gone because there will always have people that like and don’t like everything in the game.

I think it reigned supreme for too long. Either nerf it or change it or level-up other alternatives.

I resent grenades because of their trait line impact on bombs (which I love to use). Sniff.

Adamantium.3682:

I feel like I’ve stepped into some sort of portal to another world. Since when are grenades not good!? Across all game modes the Grenade Kit is the most beneficial and appears in the most good, working, and popular builds.

Yeah, I do not understand the complaint. They did lose their fields and range, but I feel that was clearly done to balance it a little more with other kits, but they are by all means still a very good kit.

Adamantium.3682:

Yeah sure, Mortar is a bit redundant. Both weapons fill different roles but they apply a lot of the same conditions and they just feel similar. I get that, but in no universe does that mean grenades should “just go away”.

I agree. The other thing is, grenades are an option for one of three utility slots, while mortar is limited to the elite slot. As I see it, mortar allows a similar viable option to grenades if a player wants to use all three utility slots for something other then grenades.

It feels to me as if it offers a lot more diversity. Particularly with the elite. Ranged support with some damage with mortar. Supply crate is still very viable and handy. Moaing folks is a blast, and the two forms work well.

Killyox.3950:

I think it reigned supreme for too long. Either nerf it or change it or level-up other alternatives.

They already nerfed it. They lost their field and range, which is already a good balancing. At this point, I don’t thing nerfing nade would be a good idea, and I rather buff a little bit some other choice. Because it’s not like enigneer is so powerful, and that grenade reign supreme because it’s just op.

Flamethrower and Bomb mostly need some love. They have some specific skill that are really great, but others are lacking, which drag these kit down.

I used to use grenades all the time, then since the changes I don’t really use them anymore because the mortar has gotten the job done. The damage on the mortar could use some more work, but outside of that its been ok. I do give grenades major credit for the barrage, but outside of that I’m still not convinced that they have found their way away from being condi again.

Thaddeus.4891:

Killyox.3950:

I think it reigned supreme for too long. Either nerf it or change it or level-up other alternatives.

They already nerfed it. They lost their field and range, which is already a good balancing. At this point, I don’t thing nerfing nade would be a good idea, and I rather buff a little bit some other choice. Because it’s not like enigneer is so powerful, and that grenade reign supreme because it’s just op.

Flamethrower and Bomb mostly need some love. They have some specific skill that are really great, but others are lacking, which drag these kit down.

And before that, grenade 1 was nerfed by a hefty percentage.

The problem with the grenade kit is Explosives. Specifically steel packed powder.

That minor trait is amazeballs. And the grenade kit procs it 3x as much as the other explosive kits.

I want the kit nerfed to the ground specifically because too much of the class has been balanced around it for much too long.

paladinecho.3024:

I used to use grenades all the time, then since the changes I don’t really use them anymore because the mortar has gotten the job done. The damage on the mortar could use some more work, but outside of that its been ok. I do give grenades major credit for the barrage, but outside of that I’m still not convinced that they have found their way away from being condi again.

I do not play WvW, so maybe there is a case to be made there, but for PvE and PvP, specifically replacing Grenade kit for Mortar kit is a mistake.

lorddarkflare.9186:

I want the kit nerfed to the ground specifically because too much of the class has been balanced around it for much too long

I hope you are doing an hyperbole, otherwise you are not worth listening too. Nerfing to the ground something you don’t like isn’t an healthy way of dealing with stuff.

lorddarkflare.9186:

And before that, grenade 1 was nerfed by a hefty percentage.

The problem with the grenade kit is Explosives. Specifically steel packed powder.

That minor trait is amazeballs. And the grenade kit procs it 3x as much as the other explosive kits.

True. They could buff the damage of grenade and reduce the number to two nades so that the dps stay the same, but the power of Steel packed powder with nade would be reduce a bit. They can even buff steel packet powder after so that Engie stay good at vulnerability, but reducing the difference of capability between nades and bomb.

Thaddeus.4891:

lorddarkflare.9186:

I want the kit nerfed to the ground specifically because too much of the class has been balanced around it for much too long

I hope you are doing an hyperbole, otherwise you are not worth listening too. Nerfing to the ground something you don’t like isn’t an healthy way of dealing with stuff.

lorddarkflare.9186:

And before that, grenade 1 was nerfed by a hefty percentage.

The problem with the grenade kit is Explosives. Specifically steel packed powder.

That minor trait is amazeballs. And the grenade kit procs it 3x as much as the other explosive kits.

True. They could buff the damage of grenade and reduce the number to two nades so that the dps stay the same, but the power of Steel packed powder with nade would be reduce a bit. They can even buff steel packet powder after so that Engie stay good at vulnerability, but reducing the difference of capability between nades and bomb.

Of course it is hyperbole.

Although, knowing this forum, maybe I should have been more explicit.

The point I am making is that the class has been balanced around keeping grenades glued to our bar to the exclusion of most of our other offensive options. I think this is a mistake.

lorddarkflare.9186:

Although, knowing this forum, maybe I should have been more explicit.

You know what they say. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. You can hardly blame the internet for taking you at your word. There is no context through facial expressions and tone of voice.

lorddarkflare.9186:

The problem with the grenade kit is Explosives. Specifically steel packed powder.

That minor trait is amazeballs. And the grenade kit procs it 3x as much as the other explosive kits.

I want the kit nerfed to the ground specifically because too much of the class has been balanced around it for much too long.

Personally, I feel a solution to the problem would be to alleviate the three grenades per toss and make it one grenade. Perhaps make it one grenade with scaled up damage and a larger AoE. That would get rid of all the issues with explosive traits.

I say no because Grenade Kit is one of the most basic things Engi use now for PvE, PvP, and WvW.

Unless the Elite Specializations provide something more to replace Grenade Kit it appears Grenade is a basic default skill for most Engi players if not the only skill that is needed for decent DPS.

coglin.1867:

Personally, I feel a solution to the problem would be to alleviate the three grenades per toss and make it one grenade. Perhaps make it one grenade with scaled up damage and a larger AoE. That would get rid of all the issues with explosive traits.

Alternatively, they could change steel packed powder from 1 vulnerability stack with no ICD to 3 stacks with an ICD of 1/2 a second. Since the attack speed of grenades/bombs/mortar is around 0.8s-1s per attack(on land) it would make the trait pretty balanced for all 3 kits without really changing engi’s ability to apply vulnerability. Shrapnel could be changed to behave in a similar way as well.

Well, yeah, that could work too. Your suggestion would add a lot more vulnerability stacking possibility then mine.

The only issue I see, is that it still gives grenades 3 times the benefit from crit procs on traits, sigils, and runes, and what not.

Killyox.3950:

I think it reigned supreme for too long. Either nerf it or change it or level-up other alternatives.

They did change it, its still powerful but say if I’m running condi build I prefer FT to grenades.

morrolan.9608:

Killyox.3950:

I think it reigned supreme for too long. Either nerf it or change it or level-up other alternatives.

They did change it, its still powerful but say if I’m running condi build I prefer FT to grenades.

Sure, but the FT-based condi builds are super gimmicky and suffer tremendously in team fights.

And this comes from someone who loves double-kit condi and other FT-based builds.

lorddarkflare.9186:

morrolan.9608:

Killyox.3950:

I think it reigned supreme for too long. Either nerf it or change it or level-up other alternatives.

They did change it, its still powerful but say if I’m running condi build I prefer FT to grenades.

Sure, but the FT-based condi builds are super gimmicky and suffer tremendously in team fights.

And this comes from someone who loves double-kit condi and other FT-based builds.

Gimmicky? how so? I’m asking for real.

NeroBoron.7285:

For condi damage currently grenades are better then mortar, they still provide 3 stacks bleeding, 3 stacks poison and work great with shrapnel because you throw 3 grenades and so you have 3x the chance of 15%. So with grenades you have a 38,58% percentage for additional 20sec of bleeding. While on mortar it’s only 15% (Yay finally stochastic in school had some sense)

It is not 38.58% chance. Each proc is independent, so there’s no weird multiplying stuff. The average grenade toss (that you get all 3 hits with) is 45% of a shrap proc.

Aside from that (sorry, may seem nitpicky), yes… grenades work with Explosives and other quantity-of-hits procs much better than other kits. This COULD be somewhere to look into balancing, whether by consolidating grenades into less hits (which would also nerf their interaction with sigils, runes, retal, aegis/blind, etc) or by increasing the Explosive effects and limiting nade interactions with those effects (the suggested ICD). Grenades are still excellent for power, condition, and hybrid.

Someday.3650:

lorddarkflare.9186:

morrolan.9608:

Killyox.3950:

I think it reigned supreme for too long. Either nerf it or change it or level-up other alternatives.

They did change it, its still powerful but say if I’m running condi build I prefer FT to grenades.

Sure, but the FT-based condi builds are super gimmicky and suffer tremendously in team fights.

And this comes from someone who loves double-kit condi and other FT-based builds.

Gimmicky? how so? I’m asking for real.

FT condi builds rely almost entirely on Incendiary Ammo, Incendiary Powder and Blowtorch.

When these are off cooldown, you do very little damage. And one well placed cleanse ruins your day.

No grenades should stay i enjoy them , even if they got a bad nerf at range and also they feel now way more inaccurate than before and getting worse with grenadier trait.

Also mortar kit are not same like nades.Mortar got tons of usefull combo fields for frost armor , area weakness or amazing blind aoe. it can save lifes !Also poison field for other stuff.

Sure we may lost our poison field on nades , but we got more combo fields on mortar + nades are still better dps than mortar.Also it’s same the farther you go the bigger your dps loss will be.

Grenades did take a big hit, but it made them compete better against the other kits instead of dominating. You should not forget that grenades are still 3 explosions at once making them of high value with vuln stacking, proccing sigils more reliable and a more steady hits. With nades and 33% crit chance you can expect that one will crit on average, whilst on bomb you have to make three times more attacks making them harder too keep sustain.