Guild Wars 2

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

So when I hear the suggestion to give engineers torment, the first question I ask is why. What problem does this solve? What does this attempt to balance? I know why necromancers, thieves, and even warriors in part were given torment: to provide additional condition damage not tied wholly to bleeding. Mesmers were given torment to buff the condition damage nature of the scepter, which had its direct damage removed. But engineers are already good on conditions.

Blood Red Arachnid has the right of it.

P/X is already one of the strongest condition spreading weapons in the game – Bleed, Poison, Confusion, Blind just on the main hand, and Burning, Immobilise, Cripple on the off hand. It was so out of control, in fact, that when people discovered the P/P HGH/Cleaning Formula 409 build back when most of our Elixirs still broke Stun, that Engineers running it were one of the apex condition builds, even over Necromancers.

Fast forward past beta and Pistol 1 is nerfed into the ground. Enter Grenades with a free covering condition in the form of Vulnerability from Steel Packed Powder. Immediate QQ erupts in the PvP forums about how strong the hybrid damage and sheer condispam the Grenade kit was capable of. Grenade kit damage was nerfed.

Due to complaints after the Kit Refinement nerf taking away 2 condition cleansers for Engineers, Healing Turret was buffed and Cleansing burst given actual utility instead of being a 60 second cooldown that did nothing half the time, and only cleased 3 conditions instead of being the full condi-clear promised by tooltip.

Fast forward even more and Teldo makes his perma burning far point assault build with BK, FT, Elixir R, Sigil of Doom with revitalised Healing Turret, and Rabid amulet. Bombs are apparently now “OP” because they cover the whole point and calls to nerf Engineer Burning due to a potential 100% uptime with Sigil of Smouldering and Condition Duration runes.

Incendiary Powder is nerfed to 40% uptime, 52% when traited 30 into explosives, 66% running condition Duration and PVP runes and sigils, and at most 80% uptime running 100% condition duration. Napalm Specialist is moved to GM.

At no point were Engineers complaining that their condition builds were too weak. We had free covering Vulnerability when using Grenades, and a swathe of other conditions using anything else – along with 7-12 stacks of Confusion since buffs to Toolkit.

Conversely, Necromancers complained that whilst they were kings of Bleed Damage, they had no covering conditions. Their bleed stacks would be easily wiped off – something that could have taken 10+ seconds to build up – crushing their condition pressure unlike any other. With little upkeep of Endurance and Swiftness and a dearth of gap closers, Necros were also easily kited to death while their mid-range condi applications could not reach out and touch someone.

Introducing Torment and Dhuumfire finally gave Necros the ability to cover their bleed stacks, whilst other trait changes made Necro Staff Marks unholy condi spamfests. As a side effect, Torment punished kiting, which also put players facing necros into a dilemma.

You must ask yourself this:
“What do we need covering using Torment?” and,
“Do Engineers really need to punish kiting as a class?”

I think you will find that for the most part, the answers to both questions will be no.

MonMalthias.4763:

Fast forward even more and Teldo makes his perma burning far point assault build with BK, FT, Elixir R, Sigil of Doom with revitalised Healing Turret, and Rabid amulet. Bombs are apparently now “OP” because they cover the whole point and calls to nerf Engineer Burning due to a potential 100% uptime with Sigil of Smouldering and Condition Duration runes.

I’m beginning to understand why this game can’t be balanced now actually. You have two types of pvp. SPvP and WvW. Medium armor classes are considered inferior to heavies and lights in wvw, yet in spvp they shine. Warrior is a lynchpin to the popular melee train in wvw, yet in spvp they are bottom rung. In fact, they are amazing roamers now too due to the way they can build the high healing power/condition build and stack it with food to have near complete, or very close to complete, condition immunity. This particular build is countered heavily by poison in spvp, but if you take a look at the food and runes in wvw, the one counter it has is completely castrated. How could anet balance a profession in one aspect of the game without completely destroying it in the other.

I then look at phrases like “they cover the whole point” in the quote above and I totally understand how bombs are very strong in pvp. Yet how effective are they in WvW? How many points in wvw are completely covered by bombs. Camps? Lords Room? Towers? There’s a reason you don’t see many bomb kit engineers in wvw, accept the rare outlier like joebamf, mainly due to the way wvw is balanced.

I have to admit, I was looking at this whole thing from a wvw standpoint, and I understand why spvper’s might think it would be very very very OP. I also feel that most of the people who agree that we need torment might play wvw more than spvp.

I realize that this game has a long way to go before class balance is achieved across all three facets of the game (wvw, pve, pvp) and that some classes shine in some areas and are completely terrible in others. I guess I took my frustration out on everyone here, and for that I apologize.

It just angers me to no end seeing all of these 20v20 GvG battles with a big fat no-engineer sign in front. I had the idea in my head that if we brought aoe torment, then maybe engineers would be more accepted in the wvw meta.

@Decklan;
To be honest, even if Engineer was given AOE Torment, it wouldn’t make a difference at all. The reason why WvW is dominated by the Warrior/Guardian Melee train with Staff Eles and a smattering of Necros in support is because the Warrior’s weaknesses – CC and conditions – are largely countered by Cleansing Water from Staff Eles, and the generalised AOE condi clear from Guardians.

Meanwhile, the only reason why Necros are still wanted in WvW zergs is because recent buffs have put Necro condis way over the top. Their AOE Weakness and Chill and Blind put a massive dent into oncoming DPS, whilst still applying decent pressure through Bleed and Poison, and keeping the backline safe by Fearing away any would-be flankers.

They can also condi bomb someone, then Epidemic it out to a large part of the zerg for terrible, terrible damage. Torment does play a role in counter-pressure – forcing opponents that would fight the Necro away from Tainted Shackles – but it is not in any way the keystone to the condi Necro build.

Given this, it is difficult to imagine that giving Torment to Engineers would play any role in bringing them back even still. There are no Tainted Shackles equivalent for the Engineer to threaten an AOE Immobilise and subsequent condi-bomb, no Corrupt Boon to turn AOE Stability into AOE Fear, and no Epidemic to turn a single condi-bombed target into a massive AOE of Bleed, Burn and Poison. As I mentioned earlier, Torment was anti-kite – of which Engineer has plenty of, with plenty of skills to control range to boot.

The problem lies in the Engineer being a little too dependant on active defense for survival and having no reliable Stability outside of allied Shouts. In a zerg, there is also little role to pull a single target using Magnet Pull – and Mesmer’s Focus pull does it even better. Zerging doesn’t reward individual pick kills because there’s always another person in the same role. If you were angry at Engineers having no role, tell that to D/D and S/D Elementalists, Thieves (Any spec), and Rangers (Spirit Rangers are maybe acceptable, but that’s because their procs are OP).

That being said, Engineer is mad strong in roaming and small group fights. I don’t care for zerging in WvW as it is less about individual skill and positioning and more about spamming fields and finishers on cooldown. The elitism that accompanies guild-led zergs is also obnoxious. I cannot see a role that would give a sense of fulfilment in a zerg for any class bar Guardian – and even that is more a function of how OP AOE Boons are.

In my opinion, if they adjusted retal in some fashion it would actually fix the majority of the problems. It’s just right now if you start spamming nades into a group with it on them it’s pretty much game over for the engi. I think the problem is that individually retal is not that strong of a deterrent but when you have a group of people with it yeah….anyone who has had it happen to them knows exactly what I am talking about heh. Just not sure how retal could be adjusted in a manner that is actually fair for all it’s considerations. As it stands now it does put engineer in a relatively terrible position in the zerg meta, I have had some marginal success building high toughness and just going into a backline harasser role trying to break up the rear(if there is one) usng slick shoes and rb to turn myself into a human bowling ball… but it has little impact without proper timing and coordination of your zerg to not leave you basically strung out on the line. Not having a really suitable niche role to fulfill in the current zerg meta is not so much of an issue for me I suppose since I am much like MonMalthias and prefer small group/solo roam where I can feel a much higher impact of my personal performance (or even lack thereof sometimes…don’t judge we all have our days :P), but I can understand why others might be disappointed they can’t find a place.

Edit: Just condensing the final point because I really think that’s all that matters.

Decklan.7540:

I have to admit, I was looking at this whole thing from a wvw standpoint, and I understand why spvper’s might think it would be very very very OP. I also feel that most of the people who agree that we need torment might play wvw more than spvp.

Well, I am not an “sPvPer.” I am an “everything-er,” and I’ve probably allotted way more hours in Eternal Battlegrounds and Borderlands than I have in the Heart of the Mists. WXP is a recent thing, so it’s really no proper measure, but it’s still way above what my rank in sPvP is. On multiple characters.

Decklan.7540:

I realize that this game has a long way to go before class balance is achieved across all three facets of the game (wvw, pve, pvp) and that some classes shine in some areas and are completely terrible in others.

Sure, but the Engineer doesn’t suffer from this issue. We aren’t “completely terrible” in any area of Guild Wars 2 … are we?

Decklan.7540:

It just angers me to no end seeing all of these 20v20 GvG battles with a big fat no-engineer sign in front. I had the idea in my head that if we brought aoe torment, then maybe engineers would be more accepted in the wvw meta.

Just don’t worry about it, because who cares about GvG anyway. It’s not even a real thing.

It still confuses me how people can argue that a class that is so powerful at 5v5 all of a sudden becomes useless just because you increase the number of players involved.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Edit: Just condensing the final point because I really think that’s all that matters.

Decklan.7540:

I have to admit, I was looking at this whole thing from a wvw standpoint, and I understand why spvper’s might think it would be very very very OP. I also feel that most of the people who agree that we need torment might play wvw more than spvp.

Well, I am not an “sPvPer.” I am an “everything-er,” and I’ve probably allotted way more hours in Eternal Battlegrounds and Borderlands than I have in the Heart of the Mists. WXP is a recent thing, so it’s really no proper measure, but it’s still way above what my rank in sPvP is. On multiple characters.

Decklan.7540:

I realize that this game has a long way to go before class balance is achieved across all three facets of the game (wvw, pve, pvp) and that some classes shine in some areas and are completely terrible in others.

Sure, but the Engineer doesn’t suffer from this issue. We aren’t “completely terrible” in any area of Guild Wars 2 … are we?

Decklan.7540:

It just angers me to no end seeing all of these 20v20 GvG battles with a big fat no-engineer sign in front. I had the idea in my head that if we brought aoe torment, then maybe engineers would be more accepted in the wvw meta.

Just don’t worry about it, because who cares about GvG anyway. It’s not even a real thing.

It still confuses me how people can argue that a class that is so powerful at 5v5 all of a sudden becomes useless just because you increase the number of players involved.

The main achilles heel for engi’s in those GvG fights is retaliation, they stack duration in the blob with their guardians, and then use warriors for knockdown trains. Which leaves us with grenades to avoid the knockdown train which puts us at huge risk to the retal on the group, it’s not uncommon to take 5k damage from retal from one grenade toss (each grenade hits 5 people, times 3 grenades). Which pushes us basically into using either bombkit, tk, rifle, or ft (which is arguably just as bad in the same situation in regards to retal), all of which require us to get up close and personal to use and with the lack of stability that is not a good option either because of the hard cc these front lines are using. It’s the one scenario that having a aoe that does not cap at 5 targets is actually a hindrance. I read your opinion in another thread regarding this very matter, I know you think it is always a l2p issue, but the fact of the matter is that there very much are guilds that use this as a tactic, it makes perfect sense for them to coordinate in such a manner. I know you can check for the boons, but you don’t have time to check every player in that scenario before unleashing. If they have a back line consisting of the ele’s (waterfield support) necro’s or whatever else they bring along maybe a mesmer, you can attack them with less risk of dying to retal but you have to position yourself accordingly which often times will leave you basically on your own for any thieves they decide to bring a long to pick off stragglers. These are not hypothetical situations some guilds really do organize in large scale combat, not all…but some. I love the engineer it is my favorite class bar none, but it does have some distinct disadvantages for these guilds to try and fit them into their lineups. I don’t particularly find the mass style of combat to my liking regardless of some of the issues I have faced with it so it is really a moot point for me, since I prefer to solo or small team roam because that is really where a engineer can make a huge impact on the outcome of a given encounter.

Blood Red brings up one interesting point: Torment was added because Necromancers were too reliant on already-clogged condition slots.

This implies another thing:
If we add Torment to too many other things, we just repeat the same mistake (if we were the game’s developers). Torment only works if there’s always 5-10 open slots in most situations, so Necros can use their (superior) application method to utilize it.

As only Mesmers and Thieves really bring Torment outside of Necromancers (on a class-level), this works out well. Right now. We can’t truly add it to more skills and/or classes.

warriors also have torments :p just throwing that out there ( on Impale)

also, overtime every class is meant to get everything, stability, teleports, stealth… like rangers who just got it

Maskaganda.2043:

blowtorch is great as it is.

O.o…..

You guys are all nuts if anything needs Torment its elixir gun skill 1 and it needs to stack..