Guild Wars 2

As much as adding torment would be awesome, I feel blowtorch is good enough as it is. Adding torment on top of the burn might be too much.

I would just swap its position w/ poison volley so I can have something that isn’t reflected back at me w/ pistol/shield

Having both confusion and torment on a single weapon set on a low cooldown would be rather diabolical, I wouldn’t mind seeing it added to something else though like toolkit’s box of nails.

I wouldn’t use it even if it had torment (PvE).

Blowtorch needs a raw damage boost. A massive one. Something which justifies Pistol MH awful autoattack.

Because it makes so much sense that a flame-projecting fx causes Torment, right? :P

blowtorch is great as it is.

If you want it given to any skill, give it to Glue Shot with the same number of ticks and duration as the cripple effect.

These are all pretty silly ideas. Blowtorch is just a cone of fire. How does that cause torment if a fireball wont?

If you want torment give it to fumigate on the elixir gun. Some strange kind of nerve gas could very plausibly cause torment. It’s supposed to be a general “conditions” attack already and vulnerability/short duration poison are kinda lame by themselves.

Really? It doesn’t fit? Kinda like how when a warrior impales someone it applies torment instead of bleed?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impale_

God, have we engineers become so pathetic that we don’t even want buffs?

There’s nothing wrong with Blowtorch.

If Torment were to go anywhere on Engineer it would belong on Box of Nails.

Put it on the pistol aa instead of bleed if anything. It’s a bit on the weak side right now imo. Blowtorch already hits like a truck and doesn’t need anything added onto it.

@ Decklan it’s not about wanting buffs, it’s about what needs to be buffed and what is fine as is.

This thread presents the notion that Engineers need Torment in the first place.

Why do we?

Phineas Poe.3018:

This thread presents the notion that Engineers need Torment in the first place.

Why do we?

Bingo

I think torment would fit on things that mention shrapnel, since that also deals more damage when moving, no?

Decklan.7540:

Really? It doesn’t fit? Kinda like how when a warrior impales someone it applies torment instead of bleed?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impale_

God, have we engineers become so pathetic that we don’t even want buffs?

I’d rather say we Engineers want more useful/practical buffs.

Torment won’t fix dual pistol. A redesign of engie fixes dual pistol.

Decklan.7540:

Really? It doesn’t fit? Kinda like how when a warrior impales someone it applies torment instead of bleed?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impale_

God, have we engineers become so pathetic that we don’t even want buffs?

It appears that Torment was given to Impale [Warrior], Shadow Strike/Skale Venom [Thief], and Illusionary Counter [Mesmer] to give an additional condition to builds/weaponsets that were under-performing and/or lacking in the number of unique conditions they could apply.

IMO the only place Torment “fits” is Necro DS #5, but they can’t have Necro being the only one with Torment so they spread the wealth a little. Engineers have no shortage of unique conditions they can apply so they did not, nor will they probably ever receive Torment.

Engineers really don’t need torment. Besides, in most of my builds I use blowtorch to keep a burn on multiple enemies for 5/6ths time.

Decklan.7540:

Really? It doesn’t fit? Kinda like how when a warrior impales someone it applies torment instead of bleed?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impale_

That actually makes sense though? When you’re impaled with a sword and start moving, it’s gonna hurt more than if you were standing still.

Would any of you be really upset if we had torment?
Probably not.

You want to stick it on box of nails? That skill is so awful to begin with, how about giving it a much shorter cast time first?

It would be a small buff that would give engineers the opportunity to apply aoe burn and torment on a short cooldown.

But you know, I guess we can all just stick to grenades for condition pressure instead of trying to get arena net to wake up and give us more build options.

P/P should be tier 1 condition pressure in my opinion because of what it sacrifices. Right now the best condition pressure an engineer can put out is either through grenades, or Pistol/Shield! Yes P/S! Why? Cus you can cheese the runes of perplexity lack of cooldown and get two interupts, getting you to 10 confusion stacks fairly quickly, then you still have prybar and the proc from the four piece bonus (maybe get to 16 confusion stacks). On top of that you still have the pressure from your pistol 1, 2, and 3. All you lose is blowtorch and glue.

If arena net wants to buff weapons that aren’t doing their job properly then they should take a hard look at off hand pistol.

SD Rifle has one of the most fluid and fun gameplay styles in the game and is incredibly effective in PvE. Rifle is absolutely fine.

Flamethrower has received numerous buffs to the point where it is actually competent DPS. I’d still rather go with Bomb Kit SD Rifle if I wanted to max DPS but that’s another story.

Elixir Gun is fine PvE support.

Tool Kit needs a few fixes to it’s 1 and 2.

Grenade Kit is fine as damage or condition pressure or hybrid.

Off-Hand pistol needs a SERIOUS buff to compete with P/S. I’m sure even the P/P pioneer Mask considers P/S with its projectile reflect, two CC moves, block (that you can attack with at the same time!) and blast finisher.

Giving torment to offhand pistol would give real incentive to take it and remain competitive.

Honestly, at T1 the difference between going P/P and P/S is night and day. Trust me, the past week I’ve been going P/P in wvw and the difference is absolutely staggering. You’re gonna get destroyed by the competent roamers at this level if you don’t bring projectile reflect and block. Destroyed. That great burn it applies, trust me it will get cleansed. Gear up for extra power to add some oomph to the blow torch? Great, you just waltzed into melee range with only gear shield to save you.

Sure, I can go around and beat scrubs all day with P/P. Anyone can. They don’t dodge, they don’t bring condition removal, and they don’t CC.

Honestly, and this is getting off topic, but I would love to see mask (the pioneer of p/p) fight a really good p/s engineer. One that actually dodges abilities, kite cleanses confusion, attacks while blocking, saves elixir tosses for condition cleanse, etc.

And btw, that really good p/s engineer wouldn’t be me.

Edit: I watched masks most recent video and wanted to turn it off after looking at a great sword warrior spam the air with hundred blades. It made me laugh, but then consider transferring down to a t4 server so I could roll people with p/p.

Decklan.7540:

Would any of you be really upset if we had torment?
Probably not.

You want to stick it on box of nails? That skill is so awful to begin with, how about giving it a much shorter cast time first?

It would be a small buff that would give engineers the opportunity to apply aoe burn and torment on a short cooldown.

But you know, I guess we can all just stick to grenades for condition pressure instead of trying to get arena net to wake up and give us more build options.

P/P should be tier 1 condition pressure in my opinion because of what it sacrifices. Right now the best condition pressure an engineer can put out is either through grenades, or Pistol/Shield! Yes P/S! Why? Cus you can cheese the runes of perplexity lack of cooldown and get two interupts, getting you to 10 confusion stacks fairly quickly, then you still have prybar and the proc from the four piece bonus (maybe get to 16 confusion stacks). On top of that you still have the pressure from your pistol 1, 2, and 3. All you lose is blowtorch and glue.

If arena net wants to buff weapons that aren’t doing their job properly then they should take a hard look at off hand pistol.

Its because box of nails is awful that we would like to see it sticked in there if we ever do get torment. (And funny enough it got this way from being nerfed)

And maybe p/p currently gets outshined by perplexity p/s, but that doesn’t mean p/p is not viable, I have used it for months in wvw and been fine with it. Its not as bad as you think.

And chances are that by next balance patch the runes will get an icd

Box of Nails would be the best place for Torment.

Penguin.5197:

And chances are that by next balance patch the runes will get an icd

These runes ain’t getting nerfed. Warriors are using them to give people 9 stacks of confusion with one shield move (when traited with 4 confusion stack on interupt).

Anything newly created that a warrior can do well by definition will not get nerfed for 8-12 months.

But god forbid engineers can stack 25 stacks of torment by spamming a med kit and doing NOTHING else lol. Insta hot fix.

And I mean, seriously, Box of Nails? Really? People can move out of its range before it lands even when they are crippled. It’s really a sad and ridiculous skill, and adding torment won’t fix its inherent problems. Also, last I checked you can still go P/S with tool kit…

mecra.5780:

Box of Nails would be the best place for Torment.

If we are to get it, this is where I would put it as well. Although part of me expects they wouldn’t give it to box of nails unless they also gave it to caltrops.

I don’t see what’s wrong with Box of Nails atm. It’s a great cripple field. Thief has to give up a utility slot for it and eng gets it on the kit (far better). I use it against mele all the time to help keep the gap. I find it very useful.

The aa on toolkit I do mostly use vs downed/stealthed players for the lulz though. The range on it is a bit small.

Box of nails should be half as effective as a Thief’s caltrops. Box of nails can’t even get 3 stacks of bleed meanwhile caltrops gives you like 8-10.

Sagramor.7395:

Phineas Poe.3018:

This thread presents the notion that Engineers need Torment in the first place.

Why do we?

Bingo

Don’t worry, condi warriors didn’t need torment either.

I find it absolutely pathetic that this is the general reaction I’m getting for asking to get torment placed on a single skill.

Torment goes on Box of Nails , alongside the miniscule amount of bleeding.

Blowtorch range needs to be increased (or apply max stacks at 600 range) , other than that nothing should be changed (besides the fire turning purple when using Quip!)

Decklan.7540:

I find it absolutely pathetic that this is the general reaction I’m getting for asking to get torment placed on a single skill.

Oh we’re sorry we don’t all think that we aren’t all campaigning for buffs left right and centre.

It’s actually rather pathetic that you think that just throwing a rather badly thought out idea onto a public forum of people emotionally invested in what you try to change will net you nothing but praise and agreement and possibly some “Yeah, we have it so bad, cmon ANet, anything!”.
Ofc not. Blowtorch is pretty good, it keeps a high Burning uptime. It needs a raw damage boost, which is much simpler than exchanging it for a functionally different condition which also doesn’t logically make sense on the skill. If someone tries to use a blowtorch on you, you know how you avoid the damage? That’s right, running away. The opposite of Torment actually, but incidentally sort-of how Blowtorch works (with the range condition).

So yeah, what did you expect? Praise and standing ovations?

As far as Torment in general goes, it would only make sense on Box of Nails and the Mortar #2, really. Those two do something which could logically cause extra damage if you continue moving.

I don’t object to the idea of giving engineers torment. we are a profession relying on cc to a large extend as it is.

But I wouldn’t put it on pistol ofhand, because our strongest build (HGH p/p) would become even stronger, while other builds hardly would benefit (kits, p/s, rifle SD…).

You know what could use torment and open up build options?
A turret!
Or the Tool kit as suggested, or the Mortar indeed (yuk…).
Basically: less used utilities that open more builds without making our strongest option stronger.

tl,dr:
Torment? Yes please.
On Blowtorch? No, rather not.

Hrm, interesting idea. What if Rifle Turret was replaced entirely with Grenade Turret, which lobs damaging grenades but when triggered lobs caltrops cartridges in an area which cause bleeding, cripple and torment?

We trying to fly UNDER the radar not be a huge blimp on it , we all know what happens when Engie becomes vastly noticed for something , every other class do whatever it takes to dismantle us…i for one are glad we haven’t had any substantial changes lately because last thing we need are more knee jerking “fixes”.

Torment on Blowtorch is broken , the skill already can have more burning on it than its CD lol! (Permaburning QQ)

I’ll just leave this here.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Caltrops-Box-of-Nails-give-Torment/first#post

If we’re going to get torment, might as well be logical about it.

XelNigma.6315:

I’ll just leave this here.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Caltrops-Box-of-Nails-give-Torment/first#post

If we’re going to get torment, might as well be logical about it.

Thank You.

Decklan.7540:

I find it absolutely pathetic that this is the general reaction I’m getting for asking to get torment placed on a single skill.

Well, you’re asking that the best condition spreading weapon in the game gets access to yet another condition, on a skill that already maintains Burning 50% of the time with Hair Trigger. Blowtorch is already so good.

I just don’t understand how this plays into proper balancing or addresses anything the Engineer needs as a class (or the Pistol as weapon). I didn’t mean for you to take offense by my response, but you must understand that this request seems very far out of left field of what we need most right now.

The Warrior change was actually very useful, because (1) no Warrior used the Sword off-hand like ever and (2) anyone who ran a condition build on their Warrior before that patch was running a bad build.

Did Condi Warriors specifically need Torment? I don’t know. Probably not. But it helped an under-represented class in PvP make use of a very under-represented weapon and actually manage to pose a threat rather than being Glory fodder in sPvP. As such this improves the vision of the game from a balancing standpoint, which in turn improves the health of Guild Wars 2 PvP. It’s easily one of the best changes of the recent patch, and I’m not sure I agree with your downplaying of it like Condition Warriors were effective pre-patch or that Warriors don’t deserve buffs across the board as the obvious least played class in PvP.

What you’re asking is a blatantly unnecessary buff to me. I’m willing to consider the reasons why you want this change, but I’m not sure how expecting sensible balance changes founded on logic and reason rather than emotion or “just because” makes me pathetic.

VitalSuit.1980:

Box of nails should be half as effective as a Thief’s caltrops. Box of nails can’t even get 3 stacks of bleed meanwhile caltrops gives you like 8-10.

Well, it’s on 1/3 of the cooldown, so technically it should be 1/3 as effective. And you’ve described it as being approximately that. It has 40% of the duration and

The only thing I think needs to change with box of nails is the cast time. If it didn’t take a full second to lay them down, it would be a lot more useable. The damage from it is too pathetic to be considered a damage ability, so it’s only worth is the disabling it gives from the cripple. But because it takes so long to drop the nails, you’re often better off just attacking directly. If the cast time was instant or low at like 1/4, that would make box of nails a much more valuable asset, and the low power of the skill would be justifiable.

Either that or the duration of Box of Nails should be increased so that the field persists longer, meaning the longer cast time is more worth it.

Now if the bleeds were switched to torment, that would also give the skill a different aspect to utility as it punishes people who move. Even if the damage is still insignificant, it works well because you force them to either stand still and be attacked, or try to escape while crippled, increasing the damage they take from torment. It would cause some damage output increase for the skill, but not by a ton if they kept the stacks and duration the same.

Putting the torment on blowtorch in addition to the burning would be quite over the top though. I suggest it for box of nails because, if we were to be given access to torment, giving it to box of nails would coincide with the utility purposes of that skill (i.e. movement control), rather than just being a way to add damage to a skill.

Decklan.7540:

But god forbid engineers can stack 25 stacks of torment by spamming a med kit and doing NOTHING else lol. Insta hot fix.

This quote right here indicates you have no concept of balance.

I dunno I’ve run perma-burn builds in PvP and PvP duels, always applied poison via pitol #2 and a poison sigil, applied traited and sigil-based bleeds and had lots of might stacks to go with my berserker gear, but there’s no “easymode” burst techniques that I see in engineer builds like I’ve seen in other classes since the Torment condition tweaked the meta. If you kite like I do in midrange while applying conditions, you’ve probably caught an kitten -load of fear+torment+burn+bleed that is the mid-range necro. Or you got yourself dominated by a mesmer that has Torment in addition to Confusion and unreflectable, long-range attacks. 409 trait did nothing for me versus this. I do my best not to whine, but I see why the OP would like this condition (and have it attached to an offhand weapon instead of a kit) to compete with these other classes. Our Confusion stacks are okay, but if the enemy runs and stops attacking they’ll live. If the enemy takes my ability to kite away via Torment, all my cooldowns go towards getting that back. You still pay torment’s toll even under the effects of elixir S, rocket boots won’t save you, and we have no way to reliably transfer conditions besides a sigil.

To tell the truth, I just want to be able to apply Torment or an equivalently meta-changing condition in whatever form besides runes so that I can go on about my business and keep my builds diverse. Sure, we’re a malleable class, but I have to slither around the boulder-sized meta the Torment classes have in addition to constructing some sort of burst damage from our multiple kits seems like the most daunting task I’ve had yet as an engineer. I’m thinking all I can go with are immobilizing traits and quickness bombkit burst but I’ll be sure to ask the forums for help if I still can’t get anywhere.

While we are tossing ideas around for torment, why not replace explosive shot with it instead? The normal short 2 second duration should still keep it balanced for when fighting multiple people like in zerg fights but if it gets replaced with torment, explosive shot might actually be useful in 1v1s instead of doing the sad damage it has atm

johnsonade.9547:

I dunno I’ve run perma-burn builds in PvP and PvP duels, always applied poison via pitol #2 and a poison sigil, applied traited and sigil-based bleeds and had lots of might stacks to go with my berserker gear, but there’s no “easymode” burst techniques that I see in engineer builds like I’ve seen in other classes since the Torment condition tweaked the meta. If you kite like I do in midrange while applying conditions, you’ve probably caught an kitten -load of fear+torment+burn+bleed that is the mid-range necro. Or you got yourself dominated by a mesmer that has Torment in addition to Confusion and unreflectable, long-range attacks. 409 trait did nothing for me versus this. I do my best not to whine, but I see why the OP would like this condition (and have it attached to an offhand weapon instead of a kit) to compete with these other classes. Our Confusion stacks are okay, but if the enemy runs and stops attacking they’ll live. If the enemy takes my ability to kite away via Torment, all my cooldowns go towards getting that back. You still pay torment’s toll even under the effects of elixir S, rocket boots won’t save you, and we have no way to reliably transfer conditions besides a sigil.

To tell the truth, I just want to be able to apply Torment or an equivalently meta-changing condition in whatever form besides runes so that I can go on about my business and keep my builds diverse. Sure, we’re a malleable class, but I have to slither around the boulder-sized meta the Torment classes have in addition to constructing some sort of burst damage from our multiple kits seems like the most daunting task I’ve had yet as an engineer. I’m thinking all I can go with are immobilizing traits and quickness bombkit burst but I’ll be sure to ask the forums for help if I still can’t get anywhere.

You’re treading dangerous ground Johnsonade, you actually saw something from my point of view.

Now you just gotta get prepared for people to troll you, net detective you, send you harassing PM’s, disagree with every point you make, and all around treat you like a complete jerk. Welcome to my world, enjoy the stay.

Decklan.7540:

johnsonade.9547:

I dunno I’ve run perma-burn builds in PvP and PvP duels, always applied poison via pitol #2 and a poison sigil, applied traited and sigil-based bleeds and had lots of might stacks to go with my berserker gear, but there’s no “easymode” burst techniques that I see in engineer builds like I’ve seen in other classes since the Torment condition tweaked the meta. If you kite like I do in midrange while applying conditions, you’ve probably caught an kitten -load of fear+torment+burn+bleed that is the mid-range necro. Or you got yourself dominated by a mesmer that has Torment in addition to Confusion and unreflectable, long-range attacks. 409 trait did nothing for me versus this. I do my best not to whine, but I see why the OP would like this condition (and have it attached to an offhand weapon instead of a kit) to compete with these other classes. Our Confusion stacks are okay, but if the enemy runs and stops attacking they’ll live. If the enemy takes my ability to kite away via Torment, all my cooldowns go towards getting that back. You still pay torment’s toll even under the effects of elixir S, rocket boots won’t save you, and we have no way to reliably transfer conditions besides a sigil.

To tell the truth, I just want to be able to apply Torment or an equivalently meta-changing condition in whatever form besides runes so that I can go on about my business and keep my builds diverse. Sure, we’re a malleable class, but I have to slither around the boulder-sized meta the Torment classes have in addition to constructing some sort of burst damage from our multiple kits seems like the most daunting task I’ve had yet as an engineer. I’m thinking all I can go with are immobilizing traits and quickness bombkit burst but I’ll be sure to ask the forums for help if I still can’t get anywhere.

You’re treading dangerous ground Johnsonade, you actually saw something from my point of view.

Now you just gotta get prepared for people to troll you, net detective you, send you harassing PM’s, disagree with every point you make, and all around treat you like a complete jerk. Welcome to my world, enjoy the stay.

Oh man! Yeah forums can get so full of vitriol and depressing to the point where I have to take a week away and just tweak my builds or watch PvE playthroughs. Sorry if other players are stalking you to disagree, but hopefully the usual cool heads I tend to upvote can see what you mean by requesting something that will place us on par with the other classes that seem to be getting a lot of attention. Or at least they can respectfully disagree. I dont’ know, I have days where I feel like I’m finally as good as a lot of really good engineers out there, and some days I feel like I have no clue what I’m doing, especially when I get stomped through the floor in PvP. But I’ve been lucky so far on this forum in that I’ve gotten great advice and no one’s lashed out at me for having a different perspective. What I think is important is that this thread starts a conversation, a conversation I hope the heretofore unresponsive devs will pay attention too, even if they’ve kind of been silent on everything other than cosmetic changes on the engi and some-day-soon new weapons we might get.

Decklan.7540:

Now you just gotta get prepared for people to troll you, net detective you, send you harassing PM’s, disagree with every point you make, and all around treat you like a complete jerk. Welcome to my world, enjoy the stay.

Deckland you are not beeing trolled, neither stalked by players… Johnsonade is not going to be harrased by anyone because he gave his honest oppinion while beeing very objective and using constructive feedback.

When you start negating everything everyone else said with quotes like “I find it absolutely pathetic that this is the general reaction I’m getting for asking to get torment placed on a single skill” while they have stayed nice and polite with you.
When you report someone for checking your previous posts to check out if you are usualy giving constructive feedback.
People are going to start messing around, because they will feel either offended or simply loose interest in your thread because they see it as a waste of time.

I find myself in situations you describe, because I can easely flame on with stupid things and I have a sarcastic nature (and to be honest with you, I hate ignorant people and general disinformation). I know some people don’t invest as much time as I do in games or on the forums, but when I see someone writing some BS on the wall to disinform people I just can’t leave it this way and usualy end up offending people. But when I do so, I need to double check my affirmations, I always look at every available options where you can have drawbacks, you just can’t afford to be wrong when you take the opposition of the majority because if you are wrong, you will loose all of your remained credibility.

And trust me, this is not something you do ever want to experience on a forum.

So instead of focussing so much on blowtorch, try to find an alternate option (a plan B ), like other people have proposed. And explain in details why it would be best to use it this way by showing the advantages/fonctionality in existing builds and not the other way around.

johnsonade.9547:

I dunno I’ve run perma-burn builds in PvP and PvP duels, always applied poison via pitol #2 and a poison sigil, applied traited and sigil-based bleeds and had lots of might stacks to go with my berserker gear, but there’s no “easymode” burst techniques that I see in engineer builds like I’ve seen in other classes since the Torment condition tweaked the meta. If you kite like I do in midrange while applying conditions, you’ve probably caught an kitten -load of fear+torment+burn+bleed that is the mid-range necro. Or you got yourself dominated by a mesmer that has Torment in addition to Confusion and unreflectable, long-range attacks. 409 trait did nothing for me versus this. I do my best not to whine, but I see why the OP would like this condition (and have it attached to an offhand weapon instead of a kit) to compete with these other classes. Our Confusion stacks are okay, but if the enemy runs and stops attacking they’ll live. If the enemy takes my ability to kite away via Torment, all my cooldowns go towards getting that back. You still pay torment’s toll even under the effects of elixir S, rocket boots won’t save you, and we have no way to reliably transfer conditions besides a sigil.

My recent experiences in PvP seem to differentiate from yours. Necromancers are tough. No doubt about it. But Mesmers are definitely not as powerful as they once were, and the addition of Torment really didn’t do a whole lot to slow their decline.

You say you want Torment to “compete” with these other classes, but you’re forgetting a few things: we apply Burning a lot better than Necromancers do. They pretty much only have the equivalent of an Engineer running nothing but Incendiary Powder. No Incendiary Ammo. No Flamethrower. No Blowtorch. No Fire Bomb. Just a few seconds of burning on a single target once every 10 seconds.

If you’re getting caught with a “kitten load” of burning by Necromancers, it’s because they’re transferring the conditions you’re applying to them back onto you. I don’t really see this as a problem, because outside of a Guardian using Contemplation of Purity (a full condi cleanse) there is no real effective counter to a Condi Engi. Most classes must just stand there and take it. And with the quick reapplications the Pistol offers, it’s almost pointless to bother removing them. Like, really. Run the Grenade Kit, Elixir Gun, and Pistol/Pistol. You have 3 different Poison skills. You have Blind, Chilled, Crippled, and Immobilized. You have Confusion, Bleeding, and Burning. Is it really so bad that we don’t have Torment on top of all of this?

And is it really so bad that one class can effectively turn our conditions back onto us? I do find it ironic that most players’ complaints about Necromancer’s superior condi is just them reflecting back what we give to them.

Somebody has to be able to kill us.

See the thing is Decklan, I don’t think you would get so much negativity if you didn’t generate so much of it yourself. From the tone of all your posts that I have seen in these forums (no I am not stalking you, just the other topics that I have read that I have seen you post in) they are almost always inflammatory or sensationalist in nature as soon as someone disagrees with you. I am sure you are a skilled player, I am sure from your perspective your points are valid, but just because you feel they are valid does not make it so. Insulting people and calling them pathetic because they don’t agree with you does little to impress upon anyone why they should consider what you are saying. Just tone it down some, seriously I think you will find people much more receptive to at least discuss their point of view with you.
Edit: I would also like to point out that the quote you said was from another post and the person was stalking you was from this very thread.

Phineas Poe.3018:

johnsonade.9547:

I dunno I’ve run perma-burn builds in PvP and PvP duels, always applied poison via pitol #2 and a poison sigil, applied traited and sigil-based bleeds and had lots of might stacks to go with my berserker gear, but there’s no “easymode” burst techniques that I see in engineer builds like I’ve seen in other classes since the Torment condition tweaked the meta. If you kite like I do in midrange while applying conditions, you’ve probably caught an kitten -load of fear+torment+burn+bleed that is the mid-range necro. Or you got yourself dominated by a mesmer that has Torment in addition to Confusion and unreflectable, long-range attacks. 409 trait did nothing for me versus this. I do my best not to whine, but I see why the OP would like this condition (and have it attached to an offhand weapon instead of a kit) to compete with these other classes. Our Confusion stacks are okay, but if the enemy runs and stops attacking they’ll live. If the enemy takes my ability to kite away via Torment, all my cooldowns go towards getting that back. You still pay torment’s toll even under the effects of elixir S, rocket boots won’t save you, and we have no way to reliably transfer conditions besides a sigil.

My recent experiences in PvP seem to differentiate from yours. Necromancers are tough. No doubt about it. But Mesmers are definitely not as powerful as they once were, and the addition of Torment really didn’t do a whole lot to slow their decline.

You say you want Torment to “compete” with these other classes, but you’re forgetting a few things: we apply Burning a lot better than Necromancers do. They pretty much only have the equivalent of an Engineer running nothing but Incendiary Powder. No Incendiary Ammo. No Flamethrower. No Blowtorch. No Fire Bomb. Just a few seconds of burning on a single target once every 10 seconds.

If you’re getting caught with a “kitten load” of burning by Necromancers, it’s because they’re transferring the conditions you’re applying to them back onto you. I don’t really see this as a problem, because outside of a Guardian using Contemplation of Purity (a full condi cleanse) there is no real effective counter to a Condi Engi. Most classes must just stand there and take it. And with the quick reapplications the Pistol offers, it’s almost pointless to bother removing them. Like, really. Run the Grenade Kit, Elixir Gun, and Pistol/Pistol. You have 3 different Poison skills. You have Blind, Chilled, Crippled, and Immobilized. You have Confusion, Bleeding, and Burning. Is it really so bad that we don’t have Torment on top of all of this?

And is it really so bad that one class can effectively turn our conditions back onto us? I do find it ironic that most players’ complaints about Necromancer’s superior condi is just them reflecting back what we give to them.

Somebody has to be able to kill us.

I hear you Phineas, It’s just a consistent issue that I don’t seem to have an answer to currently, and never in life will I say no to a buff if we were to get a new condition. For now I’m getting out-tanked by necros that apply conditions, use siphon tech and transfer my conditions as you spoke of. Pursuing to apply conditions and CC any telegraphed moves I see gets complicated by necro Torment and Fear. Add a tanky minion and you’ve found a great offense against me. But I’ll keep at it. Maybe I’ll have to change my skillset completely and give up on the FT in PvP for now since I feel like I have to control it more than I need to control my opponent with it. I could make a bunch of excuses and say “but you’re not seeing what I’m saying” for pages and pages, but If people in this forum don’t feel that challenged by the things that i’m struggling with, then I just have to level up.

Phineas Poe.3018:

This thread presents the notion that Engineers need Torment in the first place.

Why do we?

exactly, engineers have too much range and mobility to have a skill that punishes movement- for that matter, torment should not have been given to thieves and mesmers. Perhaps giving torment to necros and guardians would have been a better choice

johnsonade.9547:

I hear you Phineas, It’s just a consistent issue that I don’t seem to have an answer to currently, and never in life will I say no to a buff if we were to get a new condition. For now I’m getting out-tanked by necros that apply conditions, use siphon tech and transfer my conditions as you spoke of. Pursuing to apply conditions and CC any telegraphed moves I see gets complicated by necro Torment and Fear. Add a tanky minion and you’ve found a great offense against me. But I’ll keep at it. Maybe I’ll have to change my skillset completely and give up on the FT in PvP for now since I feel like I have to control it more than I need to control my opponent with it. I could make a bunch of excuses and say “but you’re not seeing what I’m saying” for pages and pages, but If people in this forum don’t feel that challenged by the things that i’m struggling with, then I just have to level up.

As many will prod me about, I champion the FT every chance I get … but it is not an optimal kit to counter condi classes in a scenario you’re insinuating. It’s for challenging and defending points, ideally for Smoke Vent and Air Blast, not to mention when you trait for Juggernaut and its 200 Toughness passive.

I do see what you’re saying, and I’m of course never going to say no to a buff to the Engineer, but if someone is asking me to “sign here” in support of something, I expect a little more. And I’m sure ArenaNet would too.

You know, there has always been a certain philosophy I have whenever I make a suggestion or evaluate how to improve a class or some aspect of the game:

Just take what they do, and make what they do better.

And it is a really simple philosophy. It goes contrary to how the community thinks, though. Whenever some class gets a new shiny like torment or advanced boon hate or they get a new piece of equipment, other classes default response is “I want that!”. Not “I want an equivalent buff if one is needed” or “I want to possess skills to beat that”. Just straight up torment envy.

Now, I remember exactly why torment was invented. You see, over two months ago, condition necromancers had themselves a really big problem, and they shared this exact problem with condition thieves, too. The problem was this: the whole of their condition damage was stacked only into bleeding. That was it: as a condi necro and thief you either did bleeding, or you went home. This was a really big problem, because having all of their condition damage stacked into one condition meant it was incredibly easy to cleanse and neutralize their damage. So easy, in fact, that mesmers, guardians, and rangers could largely ignore condi necros due to their ambient cleansing.

And yes, they had poison as well, but poison does very little damage in comparison, and was only useful for the anti-heal properties it provided. Problem was, the opponent didn’t lose enough health to bother healing anyway. With that, necromancers would try to constantly spam covering conditions via chill, cripple, weakness, and vulnerability sometimes, but those just weren’t enough. Thieves never had an option in the first place.

And this is where torment came in. Torment was meant to be the condition that fixed conditionmancers: it provided a form of offense that was condition based, but wasn’t a bleed. Something all to their own. Would it have been enough, I’m not so sure, given that at the same time they gave necromancers burning and twice the available fear, which seems to be what everyone complains about now. It wasn’t enough for thieves, who received pitiful access to torment like… pretty much everyone did, really. So anet dropped the ball there.

But condi engineers were fine. Why? Because they didn’t have this problem. Condi engineers applied bleed, burning, poison, and confusion all at the same time, in AoE, and instantly had vulnerability, chill, and cripple as covering conditions with minimal effort. We were the first condi spam class, and Engineers are still really good at it.

So when I hear the suggestion to give engineers torment, the first question I ask is why. What problem does this solve? What does this attempt to balance? I know why necromancers, thieves, and even warriors in part were given torment: to provide additional condition damage not tied wholly to bleeding. Mesmers were given torment to buff the condition damage nature of the scepter, which had its direct damage removed. But engineers are already good on conditions.

If anything, torment on engineers would throw engineers off balance, since it gives players yet another unique condition they have to cleanse off alongside of poison, confusion, bleeding, burning, and vulnerability.