Guild Wars 2

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

No weapon or skillset should be the top of everything.

You should probably forward that over to the Elementalist devs, they seem to be of a different philosophy over there.

lorddarkflare.9186:

Kodama.6453:

I’m glad to see that something is happening to the scrapper.

But I think the biggest problem isn’t adressed yet.
The scrapper concept and utility skills are anti-synergetic. Scrapper theme is about heavy amount of mobility and gyros just don’t have the ability to keep up (as seen in PoI). But their effects need them to stay close to the scrapper. So, if I use hammer in combination with gyros, I will never have the full benefit of the gyros. Their radius is just too low and they can’t handle the great movement of the scrapper. I hope there will be some work for this.

I think you—and I until recently—were looking at the Gyros wrong.

They are not pets. Their design is not to summon them and have them survive multiple engagements.

I see two scenarios for their use:

-Summon them right before engaging the enemy: i.e. summon bulwark or purge gyro as you approach a point being held by an enemy.

-Summon them whilst in the midst of bashing someone’s head in: i.e Blast Gyro.

In both of these cases, there is a consistent theme: make sure the initial summon is good enough, such that gyro death is not really an issue. It is the expected result.

The medic gyro update definitely shows an understanding of this. Somewhat.

My suggested further fixes:

-Significantly improve initial effect
-Improve each additional pulse
-make detonations more impressive (more damage and a blast finisher perhaps)
-Lower all gyro cooldowns between 5 and 10 seconds. I am okay with not having a CD trait, but the CDs need to be more reasonable

The goal here is to force the question of how long the cooldown is to be for a given Gyro onto the player.

I don’t think so. You are right about the fact that it is intended that the gyros will die. They will deal damage that way, give superspeed, lightning field, stun …. so, many effects. Scrapper seems to be a revival of the minion bomber from gw1.

BUT the effects of the gyros itself don’t fit at this theme. They are pulsing effects which needs you to stay close to them. They are meant as mobile minions, not immobile like turrets. So I want to still get the benefit if I am moving around. I don’t want to be forced to stand at a point just to get the full benefit.

I get the point that their death will provide us great effects. But they also should give us their effect when they are alive.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Thank you for the continued communication, Irenio.

My biggest concern is that Hammer, as a purely melee option, must be stronger than sustained grenade attacks. Grenades are currently ranged and the strongest attacking option with huge sustained damage output, so much so that if Hammer is not the single best attacking option it will not see use in PvE at all. This is absolutely crucial, and has been echoed by countless players, so if you don’t see it in my post here you will absolutely see it again in my next Fractal/Dungeon report.

Seconded. Pretty please

Also another vote for Stealth Gyro to follow the Engineer closely without delay. You could just make it sit on the Engi’s location… which would look like the Engi pumping out stealth.
Some players might say ‘well that’s too close to Engi and would be cleaved along with gyro is enemy hits it’ etc,.. but truthfully it won’t be different than the current mechanism – you’ll still be hit by cleave mostly likely anyway. At least this way we Engis can really utilize this Gyro to it’s full effectiveness and solve our concerns about it currently.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Thank you for the continued communication, Irenio.

My biggest concern is that Hammer, as a purely melee option, must be stronger than sustained grenade attacks. Grenades are currently ranged and the strongest attacking option with huge sustained damage output, so much so that if Hammer is not the single best attacking option it will not see use in PvE at all. This is absolutely crucial, and has been echoed by countless players, so if you don’t see it in my post here you will absolutely see it again in my next Fractal/Dungeon report.

The hammer 2-5 skills were already strong enough to replace the 2-5 skills on the rifle with almost no damage loss. They have been buffed slightly already from the sounds of things, so I’m guessing that you can swap between rifle and hammer without a DPS penalty while picking up the survivability tools the hammer provides.

If you make hammer AA stronger than grenade AA, you’d be increasing zerker engy DPS, which is already 15-20% higher than everything other than Ele and Revenant.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Thank you for the continued communication, Irenio.

My biggest concern is that Hammer, as a purely melee option, must be stronger than sustained grenade attacks. Grenades are currently ranged and the strongest attacking option with huge sustained damage output, so much so that if Hammer is not the single best attacking option it will not see use in PvE at all. This is absolutely crucial, and has been echoed by countless players, so if you don’t see it in my post here you will absolutely see it again in my next Fractal/Dungeon report.

The bomb kit has the highest sustained damage output, actually.

The only reason grenades are still so universally loved is because of its vulnerability stacking ability. But with raids now capping out groups at 10 players, you won’t really need a dedicated vuln stacker anymore.

I also don’t think the concern should be how the hammer compares to the grenade kit but how the hammer compares to the rifle, pistol, and shield. It competes with other weapons for its slot, not kits; regardless, DPS shouldn’t be the only point of comparison, and there should still be reasons to run pistol/shield, pistol/pistol, or rifle over the hammer.

I imagine their aim is to have the hammer be stronger than a pistol/shield but weaker than a pistol/pistol or rifle.

That makes no sense. Hammer, a melee weapon weaker than rifle, a ranged weapon? You mean just like how other ranged weapons in the game are better than melee weapons for other classes? Oh wait, they aren’t.

The weapon is not only auto attacks.

When it comes to gyro recharges…

I think having recharge start when the effect of the skill concludes makes sense for skills that you can activate outside of combat and have the effect persist indefinitely. Necromancer minions, engineer turrets, and mantras all fit in this category: if they started their recharge on initial use of the skill, it would be too easy to simply be able to redeploy the skill as soon as it’s done.

Skills that have a finite duration (that isn’t measured in minutes like engineer turrets), however, I think should have their recharge set as soon as they’re used. Gyros feel like something where if you manage to keep them out for their full duration, you should be rewarded for that by having a shorter wait before you can pull out the next one, rather than being punished by the recharge not starting until it expires. Doing things that emphasise the initial effect, like giving the medic gyro a big initial heal, just increases the punishment for something that should be a good thing (keeping the gyro running for longer).

Rising Dusk.2408:

Thank you for the continued communication, Irenio.

My biggest concern is that Hammer, as a purely melee option, must be stronger than sustained grenade attacks. Grenades are currently ranged and the strongest attacking option with huge sustained damage output, so much so that if Hammer is not the single best attacking option it will not see use in PvE at all. This is absolutely crucial, and has been echoed by countless players, so if you don’t see it in my post here you will absolutely see it again in my next Fractal/Dungeon report.

Grenades don’t really do a lot beyond damage, though. You’ve got a blind, you’ve got a chill, but apart from that it’s basically all damage and that’s it. The hammer gives you a lot of options to avoid damage – blocks, evades, defensive CC, etc. So you could use your grenades as the damaging option, while using the hammer as a substitute for the toolkit that doesn’t take a utility slot.

At the bottom line, the hammer isn’t competing with grenades. You can have both, and switch between them as the situation demands. It’s competing with rifle, pistol/pistol, and pistol/shield.

There are two things that can justify being a melee weapon: having extra damage in order to justify the risk of being in melee, and offering extra survivability and control so the risk is less. The balance of the scrapper’s hammer is in the latter category.

kevvy.5081:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Thank you for the continued communication, Irenio.

My biggest concern is that Hammer, as a purely melee option, must be stronger than sustained grenade attacks. Grenades are currently ranged and the strongest attacking option with huge sustained damage output, so much so that if Hammer is not the single best attacking option it will not see use in PvE at all. This is absolutely crucial, and has been echoed by countless players, so if you don’t see it in my post here you will absolutely see it again in my next Fractal/Dungeon report.

The bomb kit has the highest sustained damage output, actually.

The only reason grenades are still so universally loved is because of its vulnerability stacking ability. But with raids now capping out groups at 10 players, you won’t really need a dedicated vuln stacker anymore.

I also don’t think the concern should be how the hammer compares to the grenade kit but how the hammer compares to the rifle, pistol, and shield. It competes with other weapons for its slot, not kits; regardless, DPS shouldn’t be the only point of comparison, and there should still be reasons to run pistol/shield, pistol/pistol, or rifle over the hammer.

I imagine their aim is to have the hammer be stronger than a pistol/shield but weaker than a pistol/pistol or rifle.

That makes no sense. Hammer, a melee weapon weaker than rifle, a ranged weapon? You mean just like how other ranged weapons in the game are better than melee weapons for other classes? Oh wait, they aren’t.

You mean like how d/d ele does more damage than staff ele?
The grenade auto is very strong. If you want the hammer auto to be better than grenades, I’m sure we can get them to nerf the grenade kit.

For reference, the following other (non-condi) melee AAs are also worse than grenade kit:
Guardian Mace
Warrior Mace
Warrior GS
Ranger GS

kevvy.5081:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Thank you for the continued communication, Irenio.

My biggest concern is that Hammer, as a purely melee option, must be stronger than sustained grenade attacks. Grenades are currently ranged and the strongest attacking option with huge sustained damage output, so much so that if Hammer is not the single best attacking option it will not see use in PvE at all. This is absolutely crucial, and has been echoed by countless players, so if you don’t see it in my post here you will absolutely see it again in my next Fractal/Dungeon report.

The bomb kit has the highest sustained damage output, actually.

The only reason grenades are still so universally loved is because of its vulnerability stacking ability. But with raids now capping out groups at 10 players, you won’t really need a dedicated vuln stacker anymore.

I also don’t think the concern should be how the hammer compares to the grenade kit but how the hammer compares to the rifle, pistol, and shield. It competes with other weapons for its slot, not kits; regardless, DPS shouldn’t be the only point of comparison, and there should still be reasons to run pistol/shield, pistol/pistol, or rifle over the hammer.

I imagine their aim is to have the hammer be stronger than a pistol/shield but weaker than a pistol/pistol or rifle.

That makes no sense. Hammer, a melee weapon weaker than rifle, a ranged weapon? You mean just like how other ranged weapons in the game are better than melee weapons for other classes? Oh wait, they aren’t.

Except…there are?

Staff is not only is the best damage option for elementalists, it was one of the best damage weapons in the entire game prior to June 23. Scepter for guardian is also their best DPS option against large targets when you can maximize Smite.

This game is not balanced around ranged vs melee but offense vs defense. The tool kit is weaker than the bomb kit for that reason, just as it would make sense that the rifle outdamages the hammer.

I know people that only play PvE may find this statement baffling, but weapons are balanced around more than just damage, and if they build raids right, there may be situations where it is advantageous to run more defensive builds commonly seen in competitive modes.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I know people that only play PvE may find this statement baffling, but weapons are balanced around more than just damage.

So much yes, this is how it should be.

Coarr.3286:

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

Hey all,

Since the Scrapper reveal I’ve been up to my eyeballs in Druid development.

hey,

nice to see someone working on the druid :P

Would like to think it was finished seeing as they’re revealing it tomorrow…

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

Hey all,

Since the Scrapper reveal I’ve been up to my eyeballs in Druid development.

In my off-work hours I’ve been watching the forums and wanted to reply to some of your concerns and discuss some design intent.

• The hammer is intended to have good damage output and heavy proactive and reactive survivability options. Good damage does not mean best damage. No weapon or skillset should be the top of everything. Since the livestream recorded video I have made a few modifications to the damage numbers of the Hammer autoattack combo, Electro-Whirl and Shock Shield, increasing the autoattack damage, decreasing the Electro-Whirl damage and smoothing the damage distribution of Shock Shield while adding an additional strike.

• As many of you spotted, some of the Medic Gyro’s numbers were undertuned on the recorded gameplay from the livestream. The personal initial heal had already been bumped up a chunk to provide a more competitive option prior to the livestream itself, but we were unable to get the updated build in time. The initial heal is currently around 4.5k.

• Bulwark Gyro has a decent pool of health and low defense. If you and several allies are taking heavy AoE then it is going to die quickly; that is the situation where it should die quickly. This is a skill that has the potential to be very strong. I’ll be watching feedback closely, but I am holding off on any changes for now until you’ve have had the chance to play with it.

• Function Gyro requires a target. It appears at the target’s location when summoned so long as you have line of sight to create more gameplay options (across gaps or around obstacles). This summon happens nearly instantly so that you can be more reactive in resurrection situations and proactive in stomping situations. I am reviewing the recharge and duration currently.

That’s all for now!

Im not concerned with any of that. Im concerned with a unkillable Cele healing build that revolves around stacking all the heal options Scrapper will be able to use.
Regen boon 112 to 200 ish
Healing aoe’s roughly 200-400
Healing with swiftness per second at least 104 as shown in the stream
Healing with super speed at least 400ish as shown in the stream
Backpack regen roughly 120ish

If they route for all of these the scrapper will be healing easily more than a warrior per second and that can be gained without even counting the super speed healing.

Im wondering if some of these will need to be toned down or if damaging builds suffer when traited for these things.

This is something no one has touched on yet and I want to know has this bee modified at all or is it still as it sits right now. I don’t main engi and i have to say i don’t like fighting them so im going to be the elephant and the room and throw this on the table. Forgive me engi players but someone has to >.> Nothing personal..

Thank You so much for this post. It lets us Engineers know that we aren’t going to get totally ignored in the balancing process of this expansion! More communication like this is what we need!

There we go.. a few issues and concerns off the table right of the bat…and whats that? Communication and…could that be? Just simple statements of why changes happened and even explainations why? Oh wow now we are talking. Thanks for the update Irenio…total bro move right there…just please keep us informed and updated in the future too. Sure.. druid is now equally important to fix and get out…but if you drop in here and there and just talk to us there would be a LOT less tension in the engi hellpit…eh.. forum i mean. Also if you can please stick arround after the x-pac hits and the scrapper is balanced, there is a lot of other engi skills that got some stuff that should be talked out.

Irenio…

First of all, thank you for taking the time to read and respond to our feedback. Seriously, this kinda stuff really makes a difference to everyone here.

That being said, I’m worried about your hammer changes. A boost to the AA is nice, but the damage of non-AA skills is more important since you rarely AA in PvP and DPS in PvE is based on kit swapping to use the highest damage attacks. If the AA goes from bad to mediocre and the other skills go from good to mediocre, then the PvE build will just skip all hammer attacks for good attacks on something like Rifle.

Also, just to reiterate what others have said, the biggest issue with gyros (specifically the heal gyro) is still the cooldown, but thank you for boosting the heal as well.

P.s. Another thank you for all your hard work on this. I know redesigning these specs must be a hell of a task, but it really does continue to make GW2 the best MMO out there and it’s really appreciated.

Dahkeus.8243:

That being said, I’m worried about your hammer changes. A boost to the AA is nice, but the damage of non-AA skills is more important since you rarely AA in PvP and DPS in PvE is based on kit swapping to use the highest damage attacks. If the AA goes from bad to mediocre and the other skills go from good to mediocre, then the PvE build will just skip all hammer attacks for good attacks on something like Rifle.

I’m in complete agreement here. You can safely move damage from some skills to the AA, but you need to leave the hard hitting skills intact or nobody will use the weapon in PvE.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I know people that only play PvE may find this statement baffling, but weapons are balanced around more than just damage, and if they build raids right, there may be situations where it is advantageous to run more defensive builds commonly seen in competitive modes.

I think we all know that. Toolkit isn’t a powerhouse on damage, but it is amazing defensively. Likewise with P/S setup. It’s no surprise that the P/S nade bomb toolkit condi build is less damage than the P/P nade bomb FT build. No need to make jabs just because some people find PVP dull.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Thank you for the continued communication, Irenio.

My biggest concern is that Hammer, as a purely melee option, must be stronger than sustained grenade attacks. Grenades are currently ranged and the strongest attacking option with huge sustained damage output, so much so that if Hammer is not the single best attacking option it will not see use in PvE at all. This is absolutely crucial, and has been echoed by countless players, so if you don’t see it in my post here you will absolutely see it again in my next Fractal/Dungeon report.

While it will likely be viewed that way, that’s not strictly true. Any kit still represents an opportunity cost of the used up/occupied right tray slot. Given their up-time, the effectiveness of the grenades should be comparably to a weapon plus a single signet. Or running the equation the other way the Hammer (or any other 2-h weapon) should be a tiny bit weaker than a kit.

Jerus.4350:

Phineas Poe.3018:

I know people that only play PvE may find this statement baffling, but weapons are balanced around more than just damage, and if they build raids right, there may be situations where it is advantageous to run more defensive builds commonly seen in competitive modes.

I think we all know that. Toolkit isn’t a powerhouse on damage, but it is amazing defensively. Likewise with P/S setup. It’s no surprise that the P/S nade bomb toolkit condi build is less damage than the P/P nade bomb FT build. No need to make jabs just because some people find PVP dull.

Then why are people complaining that the grenade kit outdamages a weapon with three leap finishers, a block, and a reflect?

I’m sorry if you find what I’m saying offensive, but PvE players are exhibiting precisely this mindset in this thread. All they care about is DPS.

Knox.8962:

Dahkeus.8243:

That being said, I’m worried about your hammer changes. A boost to the AA is nice, but the damage of non-AA skills is more important since you rarely AA in PvP and DPS in PvE is based on kit swapping to use the highest damage attacks. If the AA goes from bad to mediocre and the other skills go from good to mediocre, then the PvE build will just skip all hammer attacks for good attacks on something like Rifle.

I’m in complete agreement here. You can safely move damage from some skills to the AA, but you need to leave the hard hitting skills intact or nobody will use the weapon in PvE.

As much as I’ve spouted off about this… you’re right. Damage on hammer auto will either be low with high damage skills, being put into our rotation. Have the AA high damage, and have it increase our overall damage potential which is honestly high enough as it is. Or have it right in the middle and will just not really raise the “easy build” potential like I was hoping. Been thinking about it all morning (over a very delicious breakfast) and I just can’t figure out how it’d be done without one of those outcomes. So honestly… maybe it was best left with stronger skills and a mediocre auto attack for damage. That said I’d still like a utility on the final strike that’s not things we’ll already have capped :/

Here’s a proposal for balancing hammer AA damage – Instead of increasing AA damage at the expense of lowering other hammer skill damage, lower AA damage and remove the vuln/might on hit.

The vuln/might don’t really contribute much to PvP since you don’t really AA there and the vuln/might is generally redundant in good PvE groups anyways.

Nike.2631:

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

Hey all,

Hey Irenio ,
I’m sure you see the endless concern about gyros getting caught in the cross-fire/cleave and getting ripped back into the scrap we tinkered them together from. Which gave me an idea…

Would you consider as a basic rule for the gyro skill type “If the gyro is destroyed before its fuel runs out you collect the scrap to reuse, reducing the cooldown of this skill.”?

If we get full use out of them, we get the full cooldown. But if their adorable lives are cut short, we scrappers bang em’ back together and turn them loose once more!

Also, I’d like to +1 this idea. Not sure how realistic it is to expect this before HoT release since it may be more work to change this functionality, rather than just re-tuning the numbers, but I think this would be a great change to the usefulness of these skills in the long run.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Jerus.4350:

Phineas Poe.3018:

I know people that only play PvE may find this statement baffling, but weapons are balanced around more than just damage, and if they build raids right, there may be situations where it is advantageous to run more defensive builds commonly seen in competitive modes.

I think we all know that. Toolkit isn’t a powerhouse on damage, but it is amazing defensively. Likewise with P/S setup. It’s no surprise that the P/S nade bomb toolkit condi build is less damage than the P/P nade bomb FT build. No need to make jabs just because some people find PVP dull.

Then why are people complaining that the grenade kit outdamages a weapon with three leap finishers, a block, and a reflect?

I’m sorry if you find what I’m saying offensive, but PvE players are exhibiting precisely this mindset in this thread. All they care about is DPS.

I was doing so in the hopes it could be a weapon that could stand on it’s own, but I was wrong, I just wasn’t thinking it completely through. Of course it’ll be an amazing defensive weapon. It shouldn’t be as high of damage as rifle. It honestly should be worse damage than P/S but it’s pretty hard to do that and still have anyone want to use it.

And I’ll say that all along I wanted more utility out of the AA more than just flat damage.

Dahkeus.8243:

The vuln/might don’t really contribute much to PvP since you don’t really AA there and the vuln/might is generally redundant in good PvE groups anyways.

On a tanky bruiser thing (like a cele ele) you do plenty of auto attacking. This role is just overwhelmingly filled by d/d ele currently so you don’t really see other classes doing much of that.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Then why are people complaining that the grenade kit outdamages a weapon with three leap finishers, a block, and a reflect?

People are complaining about the autoattacks, not about whole kit rotations.
It’s all about having an autoattack that won’t lose out to a kit autoattack.
Cause what will happen otherwise is that people will use those “three leap finishers, a block, and a reflect” when they aren’t on cooldown and switch to some kit for the rest of the time.

I’m sorry if you find what I’m saying offensive, but PvE players are exhibiting precisely this mindset in this thread. All they care about is DPS.

Maybe if DPS wasn’t the only thing that mattered in encounters for over three years, people wouldn’t have such a mindset.
Especially seeing what happens when they make tools supposedly purposed for other roles (med kit says hello).

Knox.8962:

Dahkeus.8243:

The vuln/might don’t really contribute much to PvP since you don’t really AA there and the vuln/might is generally redundant in good PvE groups anyways.

On a tanky bruiser thing (like a cele ele) you do plenty of auto attacking. This role is just overwhelmingly filled by d/d ele currently so you don’t really see other classes doing much of that.

LOL they do auto attacking because it contributes to healing them signet of renewal Thats a large reasoning for auto attacking and ele auto attacks are not chain attacks. If not for the healing you wouldn’t see ele’s using auto attacks because outside of staff they dont hurt at all (Except for lighting whip… its the only auto attack that actually deals some damage).

(I think you should get a better reference, the playstyles are too different to compare what you are talking about to an Ele AA)

Manuhell.2759:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Then why are people complaining that the grenade kit outdamages a weapon with three leap finishers, a block, and a reflect?

People are complaining about the autoattacks, not about whole kit rotations.
It’s all about having an autoattack that won’t lose out to a kit autoattack.
Cause what will happen otherwise is that people will use those “three leap finishers, a block, and a reflect” when they aren’t on cooldown and switch to some kit for the rest of the time.

I’m sorry if you find what I’m saying offensive, but PvE players are exhibiting precisely this mindset in this thread. All they care about is DPS.

Maybe if DPS wasn’t the only thing that mattered in encounters for over three years, people wouldn’t have such a mindset.
Especially seeing what happens when they make tools supposedly purposed for other roles (med kit says hello).

Simple solution to end this problem… Nerf the grenade kit more…. oh whats that.. you dont agree.. ok then shush up. GAWD… Stop whining so much and stop trying to get more free damage lol. No one says you have to use a hammer you still have rifle and p/p. All you guys are gonna do 2 months later is say Hammer AA is super strong… nade kit is weak…. Nade kit should be better cause you have to give up a slot for it….. Buff nades……pls…..

Manuhell.2759:

Cause what will happen otherwise is that people will use those “three leap finishers, a block, and a reflect” when they aren’t on cooldown and switch to some kit for the rest of the time.

And why is this a problem?

The scrapper is intended to help fill out our current defensive liabilities … primarily our lack of stability options. There is nothing about it that is intended to challenge or usurp our current high damage options as those are already plentiful and really quite different depending on whether you want to spec for power or condi.

I get it that people have a DPS-over-all mindset in PvE because that’s just the way the game has been played up to this point, but ArenaNet is obviously taking a different approach in Heart of Thorns and the community refuses to adjust.

Thank you for the communication, it is much appreciated!

Looking forward to test the specialization and bugs correction

ZDragon.3046:

Knox.8962:

Dahkeus.8243:

The vuln/might don’t really contribute much to PvP since you don’t really AA there and the vuln/might is generally redundant in good PvE groups anyways.

On a tanky bruiser thing (like a cele ele) you do plenty of auto attacking. This role is just overwhelmingly filled by d/d ele currently so you don’t really see other classes doing much of that.

LOL they do auto attacking because it contributes to healing them signet of renewal Thats a large reasoning for auto attacking and ele auto attacks are not chain attacks. If not for the healing you wouldn’t see ele’s using auto attacks because outside of staff they dont hurt at all (Except for lighting whip… its the only auto attack that actually deals some damage).

(I think you should get a better reference, the playstyles are too different to compare what you are talking about to an Ele AA)

I’m familiar with the signet heal. Are you trying to insinuate that, if they didn’t get healing for casting, Eles would just hide out of LoS while waiting for fire attunement to come back up instead of pummeling people with might powered lightning whips?

Ele is strong because it does decent/good damage while still being super hard to kill. Bunker guard is as tanky as D/D ele, but it has basically 0 kill pressure, so you can just sit there and whittle them down. If you try to do that with a d/d Ele, you will most likely die.

Thanks for the communication Irenio! Even if devs can’t make any quick or immediate changes it’s nice to know the thoughts and intentions behind the decisions made.

Regarding the Hammer AA discussion would it be over the top to, instead of giving it straight damage, give it more utility that will help us fight in melee? The might and vuln would have to come off it to compensate but I think we have enough sources for those two anyway. Like say 1/2s of weakness on the first hit, 1/2s of super speed or cripple on the second hit and then 1/2s of each on the last hit? I’ll admit that as someone who probably won’t be using drones and their traits I’d like just a teeny weeny bit more access to super speed.

Speaking of drones and their possible squishy-ness and the whole idea of keeping them out instead of using it for the initial effect, this goes for turrets too I suppose, I’ve been pondering over something for a long time now. To address their fragility would it be possible to have any healing you apply to yourself also apply to your drones (and turrets) or maybe a percentage of the healing? It would need to apply only to heals you apply yourself so they don’t become crazy if they absorbed all the healing you get from outside sources. Another idea would be to give drones evade frames whenever you have them. Not sure for turrets, maybe they can block when you block?

Also to give people more incentive to keep them out, though I think this applies more to turrets, would it be good to have them ramp up in some way the longer they are out? For example with the healing turret perhaps having it pulse a modest heal on the second pulse in addition to the regen and then a 2s water field or a bit of condi cleanse on the third pulse. Or something? Just tossing out incentives to keep healing turret out so it can act more turrety.

Finally my little selfish request. Please have someone take another look at Med Kit. I don’t even care if it doesn’t get looked at till a month or three after HOT releases. As long as someone can open communications with us about it like you have here. I’m still running it, but that’s only because I like my penta-weapon-kit-theme enough to try and work with it. At least it still works with Altruist runes so I’ve got perma Fury, 3 might stacks, and semi-perma swiftness without kit refinement which is nice, but it feels so clunky to use T-T.

My main issue is how underwhelming the new mechanic funtion gyro is compared to the other classes. I mean most of them inwas like wow thats cool. But funtion gyro just a rez and stomp device i dont even see how that connects with the scrappers theme.

ZDragon.3046:

Simple solution to end this problem… Nerf the grenade kit more…. oh whats that.. you dont agree.. ok then shush up. GAWD… Stop whining so much and stop trying to get more free damage lol. No one says you have to use a hammer you still have rifle and p/p. All you guys are gonna do 2 months later is say Hammer AA is super strong… nade kit is weak…. Nade kit should be better cause you have to give up a slot for it….. Buff nades……pls…..

Another simple solution would be to read the posts you are quoting, something that you apparently missed out to do.
What part of “having an autoattack that won’t lose out to a kit autoattack” wasn’t clear enough?
I’m asking for the autoattack to be comparable. Kits offer a whole slew of other abilities in addition to that one, so why should that matter? Using a kit autoattack should be an alternative filling some particular use that the main weapon lacks, not the overall better solution for any single case like they’re now.

Phineas Poe.3018:

And why is this a problem?

The scrapper is intended to help fill out our current defensive liabilities … primarily our lack of stability options. There is nothing about it that is intended to challenge or usurp our current high damage options as those are already plentiful and really quite different depending on whether you want to spec for power or condi.

Asking for a decent autoattack is by no means equal to “usurp our current high damage options”. Kits do all sort of other things beside giving an autoattack.
And not having to depend on some kits just to have a decent autoattack would help covering our liabilities as well, given that we’ve got to spend slots even for that right now. And those are all slots that we won’t be able to spend on gyros.

(gyros that suffer all the current defensive liabilities of turrets, anyway, so i can’t see what they’re supposed to fill, anyway)

Phineas Poe.3018:

I get it that people have a DPS-over-all mindset in PvE because that’s just the way the game has been played up to this point, but ArenaNet is obviously taking a different approach in Heart of Thorns and the community refuses to adjust.

Given that i’ve stated multiple times that i would like to see more practical use of all those stat combinations beside zerker, i would be fine if that happened. I just don’t think they will ever effectively do it. We’ll see if anything changes with the release of the expansion, though.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

Cause what will happen otherwise is that people will use those “three leap finishers, a block, and a reflect” when they aren’t on cooldown and switch to some kit for the rest of the time.

And why is this a problem?

The scrapper is intended to help fill out our current defensive liabilities … primarily our lack of stability options. There is nothing about it that is intended to challenge or usurp our current high damage options as those are already plentiful and really quite different depending on whether you want to spec for power or condi.

I get it that people have a DPS-over-all mindset in PvE because that’s just the way the game has been played up to this point, but ArenaNet is obviously taking a different approach in Heart of Thorns and the community refuses to adjust.

If they do make HoT require high passive defenses, well, I don’t care to adjust, I’ll continue screwing around in fractals and doing the content I enjoy. There’s a reason I’m a fan of PVE in this game, and many reasons I dislike the PVP.

RunicAura.9860:

My main issue is how underwhelming the new mechanic funtion gyro is compared to the other classes. I mean most of them inwas like wow thats cool. But funtion gyro just a rez and stomp device i dont even see how that connects with the scrappers theme.

This. 1000 times this.

Hello, Irenio.

I’d like to thank you for the communication. Its a small gesture, but it is so much more than we normaly receive. I hope your posts became a normal sight in the forums.

I’m also going to congratulate you for the work with the Scrapper’s Hammer, wich looks really fun, and give us Engies a lot to learn in the new spec.

Finally, i’m going to ask you a couple questions about the rest of the Engie’s Spec, which I honestly don’t understand.

1- Why is the Scrapper so strongly PvP focused, with a core mechanic that would be totally useless in 95% of the actual PvE content, and an Elite skill that focus on stealth and reveal, wich are hardly needed in PvE?

2- We already have turrets. Why did you decided to create yet another set of AI dependent, easily killable summons?

Thank you again for reading, I hope you can answer too.

Ardid.7203:

RunicAura.9860:

My main issue is how underwhelming the new mechanic funtion gyro is compared to the other classes. I mean most of them inwas like wow thats cool. But funtion gyro just a rez and stomp device i dont even see how that connects with the scrappers theme.

This. 1000 times this.

It’s amazing how many people are so short-sighted on this. I assume that you’re both purely PvP-focused since this is borderline OP in PvP as it’s described now, but even in PvE, we have raids coming out and if they’re anything near what they should be, a rez mechanic that doesn’t take up a skill slot will be invaluable.

But, if you really feel underwhelmed, feel free to roll a thief and just get an extra dodge or something.

Dahkeus.8243:

Ardid.7203:

RunicAura.9860:

My main issue is how underwhelming the new mechanic funtion gyro is compared to the other classes. I mean most of them inwas like wow thats cool. But funtion gyro just a rez and stomp device i dont even see how that connects with the scrappers theme.

This. 1000 times this.

It’s amazing how many people are so short-sighted on this. I assume that you’re both purely PvP-focused since this is borderline OP in PvP as it’s described now, but even in PvE, we have raids coming out and if they’re anything near what they should be, a rez mechanic that doesn’t take up a skill slot will be invaluable.

But, if you really feel underwhelmed, feel free to roll a thief and just get an extra dodge or something.

I find little to no use for this in pve which is the main area i play also as i stated it does not seem to match the scrapper them if you feel it is great good for you we all are entitled to our opinions
And as for pvp it seems made more for it.

Daredevil’s dodges will be usable in every aspect of the game: open world, dungeons, guild missions, personal story, journal achievements, world bosses, sPvP, WvW, etc. Also, it will be equally usable if you play with a party, in the middle of a zerg or solo. Also, it will be used quite frequently. This applies to most “new mechanics” from the other Specs, too. Maybe I’m wrong, but I can’t see this being true for the FGyro.

I don’t play too much PvP, really.

I’m into PvP and PvE fairly equally. Mostly FOTM50’s and dungeons in PvE.

I can see how the Function Gyro is good in PvE. There are times when it would be really helpful to revive a fallen teammate from distance without putting myself in danger, or double revive to get through Agony ticks and make sure they don’t die.

However, I can take a few hits without dying. I’m not sure Function Gyro can. Additionally while I can see Function Gyro being useful for me in certain situations, I understand that the percentage of PvE players that regularly run the most difficult PvE content and need timely revives is probably pretty low.

Overall I don’t think I can come up with a good argument for Function Gyro being good for PvE players. Even for me the most use I see myself getting from it is PvP, even then only in niche situations because of the cleave and cooldown. I believe my PvE play style lends itself most to taking advantage of this mechanic but I really don’t think I can make an argument for it being a good PvE mechanic. Looking at what the other professions got, even the weaker ones, it’s a pretty big disparity.

Manuhell.2759:

Asking for a decent autoattack is by no means equal to “usurp our current high damage options”.

Read the very comment you quoted within the same post.

They don’t want a “decent” autoattack. They want it to effectively replace the grenade kit. That’s just not happening.

Knox.8962:

kevvy.5081:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Thank you for the continued communication, Irenio.

My biggest concern is that Hammer, as a purely melee option, must be stronger than sustained grenade attacks. Grenades are currently ranged and the strongest attacking option with huge sustained damage output, so much so that if Hammer is not the single best attacking option it will not see use in PvE at all. This is absolutely crucial, and has been echoed by countless players, so if you don’t see it in my post here you will absolutely see it again in my next Fractal/Dungeon report.

The bomb kit has the highest sustained damage output, actually.

The only reason grenades are still so universally loved is because of its vulnerability stacking ability. But with raids now capping out groups at 10 players, you won’t really need a dedicated vuln stacker anymore.

I also don’t think the concern should be how the hammer compares to the grenade kit but how the hammer compares to the rifle, pistol, and shield. It competes with other weapons for its slot, not kits; regardless, DPS shouldn’t be the only point of comparison, and there should still be reasons to run pistol/shield, pistol/pistol, or rifle over the hammer.

I imagine their aim is to have the hammer be stronger than a pistol/shield but weaker than a pistol/pistol or rifle.

That makes no sense. Hammer, a melee weapon weaker than rifle, a ranged weapon? You mean just like how other ranged weapons in the game are better than melee weapons for other classes? Oh wait, they aren’t.

You mean like how d/d ele does more damage than staff ele?
The grenade auto is very strong. If you want the hammer auto to be better than grenades, I’m sure we can get them to nerf the grenade kit.

For reference, the following other (non-condi) melee AAs are also worse than grenade kit:
Guardian Mace
Warrior Mace
Warrior GS
Ranger GS

You’re all over the place. We already know hammer’s rotations are powerful than rifle’s rotations. No one is going to stay in Hammer forever. They will need to perform rotations with other kits. We’re talking about the AA here for hammer being better than rifle and grenades.

Let me give you some reference as well :
- You’re comparing total DPS within rotations of D/D and Staff. I’m not talking about rotations. Hell even D/D in air out DPS’s Staff’s fire AA but that’s a moot point.
- It makes sense that Bomb’s AA has higher dps than grenade’s AA. It already does.
- Why are you comparing other class’s weapons AA to an Engi’s kit? We’re talking about the DPS of Engi’s AA skills and how we want more for hammer since it’s melee vs grenade/rifle.

Yes, Ele’s staff does better DPS than D/D. Yes, Guard’s scepter #2 does good DPS when aimed at a building or enemy with large hit box. You haven’t addressed anything about their AA though.

It is the norm for, well, anyone to assume melee weapons in nature do more damage. Ironically some do less in rotations like above. But Anet has said melee weapons have more risk so they get more damage.

People have shown desire for them to stay in Hammer while of course we do our normal rotations with grenade/elixir rifle/FT. Current meta is staying in grenade between rotations. We want to stay in Hammer, with better DPS. It’s not exactly rocket science.

kevvy.5081:

Knox.8962:

kevvy.5081:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Thank you for the continued communication, Irenio.

My biggest concern is that Hammer, as a purely melee option, must be stronger than sustained grenade attacks. Grenades are currently ranged and the strongest attacking option with huge sustained damage output, so much so that if Hammer is not the single best attacking option it will not see use in PvE at all. This is absolutely crucial, and has been echoed by countless players, so if you don’t see it in my post here you will absolutely see it again in my next Fractal/Dungeon report.

The bomb kit has the highest sustained damage output, actually.

The only reason grenades are still so universally loved is because of its vulnerability stacking ability. But with raids now capping out groups at 10 players, you won’t really need a dedicated vuln stacker anymore.

I also don’t think the concern should be how the hammer compares to the grenade kit but how the hammer compares to the rifle, pistol, and shield. It competes with other weapons for its slot, not kits; regardless, DPS shouldn’t be the only point of comparison, and there should still be reasons to run pistol/shield, pistol/pistol, or rifle over the hammer.

I imagine their aim is to have the hammer be stronger than a pistol/shield but weaker than a pistol/pistol or rifle.

That makes no sense. Hammer, a melee weapon weaker than rifle, a ranged weapon? You mean just like how other ranged weapons in the game are better than melee weapons for other classes? Oh wait, they aren’t.

You mean like how d/d ele does more damage than staff ele?
The grenade auto is very strong. If you want the hammer auto to be better than grenades, I’m sure we can get them to nerf the grenade kit.

For reference, the following other (non-condi) melee AAs are also worse than grenade kit:
Guardian Mace
Warrior Mace
Warrior GS
Ranger GS

You’re all over the place. We already know hammer’s rotations are powerful than rifle’s rotations. No one is going to stay in Hammer forever. They will need to perform rotations with other kits. We’re talking about the AA here for hammer being better than rifle and grenades.

Let me give you some reference as well :
- You’re comparing total DPS within rotations of D/D and Staff. I’m not talking about rotations. Hell even D/D in air out DPS’s Staff’s fire AA but that’s a moot point.
- It makes sense that Bomb’s AA has higher dps than grenade’s AA. It already does.
- Why are you comparing other class’s weapons AA to an Engi’s kit? We’re talking about the DPS of Engi’s AA skills and how we want more for hammer since it’s melee vs grenade/rifle.

Yes, Ele’s staff does better DPS than D/D. Yes, Guard’s scepter #2 does good DPS when aimed at a building or enemy with large hit box. You haven’t addressed anything about their AA though.

It is the norm for, well, anyone to assume melee weapons in nature do more damage. Ironically some do less in rotations like above. But Anet has said melee weapons have more risk so they get more damage.

People have shown desire for them to stay in Hammer while of course we do our normal rotations with grenade/elixir rifle/FT. Current meta is staying in grenade between rotations. We want to stay in Hammer, with better DPS. It’s not exactly rocket science.

I would just like to say that with the engineer it is, in fact, rocket science. We have so many rockets.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Except…there are?

Staff is not only is the best damage option for elementalists, it was one of the best damage weapons in the entire game prior to June 23. Scepter for guardian is also their best DPS option against large targets when you can maximize Smite.

This game is not balanced around ranged vs melee but offense vs defense. The tool kit is weaker than the bomb kit for that reason, just as it would make sense that the rifle outdamages the hammer.

I know people that only play PvE may find this statement baffling, but weapons are balanced around more than just damage, and if they build raids right, there may be situations where it is advantageous to run more defensive builds commonly seen in competitive modes.

1) We are talking about AA.

2) I do agree on your point about tool kit being weaker than bomb kit. It has a very nice 3s block which is so valuable in many situations. Even though Hammer is very defensive in nature we already know it does better rotations than rifle.
But autoattack? Less than rifle? Tool kit does better AA than rifle so why’s Hammer got to be less?

3) I suppose the argument on one side like you and Knox is that being a defensive weapon, it shouldn’t have better AA dps than rifle/grenades.

I disagree. Spout however you want, Hammer is locked behind a trait line and needs to be a definitive weapon on it’s own since we don’t have weapon swap. People can keep saying ’it’s optional, deal with it’. No it’s not optional, when we want something, be it a weapon or utility, nothing else requires a condition for us to yield to like that of an Elite spec’s weapon.

We may not NEED to take scrapper trait line, but we do need to take it if we want Hammer. If I’m going in Scrapper’s trait line to get hammer, it better not be sub par in any sense. Sure it has defensive capabilities but having a better AA is not exactly out of this world. I’ve invested into it. I’m gonna want to reap it.

RunicAura.9860:

Dahkeus.8243:

Ardid.7203:

RunicAura.9860:

My main issue is how underwhelming the new mechanic funtion gyro is compared to the other classes. I mean most of them inwas like wow thats cool. But funtion gyro just a rez and stomp device i dont even see how that connects with the scrappers theme.

This. 1000 times this.

It’s amazing how many people are so short-sighted on this. I assume that you’re both purely PvP-focused since this is borderline OP in PvP as it’s described now, but even in PvE, we have raids coming out and if they’re anything near what they should be, a rez mechanic that doesn’t take up a skill slot will be invaluable.

But, if you really feel underwhelmed, feel free to roll a thief and just get an extra dodge or something.

I find little to no use for this in pve which is the main area i play also as i stated it does not seem to match the scrapper them if you feel it is great good for you we all are entitled to our opinions
And as for pvp it seems made more for it.

Ok, you’re still not getting it…

It’s not about whether you have a use for it now. It’s about whether you’ll have a use for it in HoT.

If you stay out of high level fractals and raids, then that’s about the only way you won’t be using it. Just because the current easy content that everyone knows like the back of their hand doesn’t result in many people needing revives doesn’t mean that will be the case in HoT.

And if you don’t see how little robots that allow an engineer to multi-task fit into the theme of the Scrapper…well, not sure what to say for ya.

kevvy.5081:

You’re all over the place. We already know hammer’s rotations are powerful than rifle’s rotations. No one is going to stay in Hammer forever. They will need to perform rotations with other kits. We’re talking about the AA here for hammer being better than rifle and grenades.

Let me give you some reference as well :
- You’re comparing total DPS within rotations of D/D and Staff. I’m not talking about rotations. Hell even D/D in air out DPS’s Staff’s fire AA but that’s a moot point.
- It makes sense that Bomb’s AA has higher dps than grenade’s AA. It already does.
- Why are you comparing other class’s weapons AA to an Engi’s kit? We’re talking about the DPS of Engi’s AA skills and how we want more for hammer since it’s melee vs grenade/rifle.

Yes, Ele’s staff does better DPS than D/D. Yes, Guard’s scepter #2 does good DPS when aimed at a building or enemy with large hit box. You haven’t addressed anything about their AA though.

It is the norm for, well, anyone to assume melee weapons in nature do more damage. Ironically some do less in rotations like above. But Anet has said melee weapons have more risk so they get more damage.

People have shown desire for them to stay in Hammer while of course we do our normal rotations with grenade/elixir rifle/FT. Current meta is staying in grenade between rotations. We want to stay in Hammer, with better DPS. It’s not exactly rocket science.

There are multiple arguments being put forth in this thread. Some people are suggesting hammer 1 should be better than grenade 1, others have suggested that hammer 1-5 should be better than grenade 1-5.

You seem to be proposing hammer 1 > grenade 1. To make this be optimal in PvE, you need hammer 1 to do more damage than grenade auto and shrapnel procs.

Grenade auto with shrapnel is 0.99 coefficient + 5.4s of bleeding on average. That is a ridiculously high damage auto attack. I already pointed out several weapons that have weaker attacks, not even counting the bleeding. In order for hammer to compete with that, you need to give it about a 1.2 coefficient/sec, which would make it a godly weapon.

If you for some reason did crank up the coefficient of the hammer AA that high, you would also be increasing the already significantly higher than average engineer DPS.

If you really want to replace grenade auto with hammer auto, you should try to convince Irenio to reduce grenade auto by 40%.

Dahkeus.8243:

RunicAura.9860:

Dahkeus.8243:

Ardid.7203:

RunicAura.9860:

My main issue is how underwhelming the new mechanic funtion gyro is compared to the other classes. I mean most of them inwas like wow thats cool. But funtion gyro just a rez and stomp device i dont even see how that connects with the scrappers theme.

This. 1000 times this.

It’s amazing how many people are so short-sighted on this. I assume that you’re both purely PvP-focused since this is borderline OP in PvP as it’s described now, but even in PvE, we have raids coming out and if they’re anything near what they should be, a rez mechanic that doesn’t take up a skill slot will be invaluable.

But, if you really feel underwhelmed, feel free to roll a thief and just get an extra dodge or something.

I find little to no use for this in pve which is the main area i play also as i stated it does not seem to match the scrapper them if you feel it is great good for you we all are entitled to our opinions
And as for pvp it seems made more for it.

Ok, you’re still not getting it…

It’s not about whether you have a use for it now. It’s about whether you’ll have a use for it in HoT.

If you stay out of high level fractals and raids, then that’s about the only way you won’t be using it. Just because the current easy content that everyone knows like the back of their hand doesn’t result in many people needing revives doesn’t mean that will be the case in HoT.

And if you don’t see how little robots that allow an engineer to multi-task fit into the theme of the Scrapper…well, not sure what to say for ya.

Ok so maybe your not getting it.

First of all you already admit that it has a select usefulness in game modes. It isn’t equal in all game modes.

Robot that can let you multi task? You might actually have something if it actually did that. But it has two functions. A stomp and a rez. So no it it had more functions then maybe it would.

“Scrapper is originally a negative name in the Charr society – applied to low class warbands, outcasts, and misfits. They were the people who were forced to pick up scraps and do junkyard work. They took their punishment and use it as a badge of honor and inspired the other downtrodden races to do the same. Scrappers are a master of improvisation, not only in the junkyard but also on the battlefield.”

I don’t see where stomping and rezing people has much to do with this at all. It does not speak of improvisation nor junk/scrap. It’s a stomp and a rez.

Now as I said your welcome to your opinion but so am I. And my opinion of the function gyro is still “blah” especially compared to the other professions. You may think I’m wrong, the dev may agree with you but I will voice my opinion and respect yours I ask that you do the same and stop trying to say my opinion has no valid points. Thank you.

And I think I’ll keep playing my engineers I rather enjoy the profession even if I don’t agree with some of the mechanics. So no I won’t be rerolling

And that’s why the function gyro should be extended to harvest gathering nodes and throw toilet paper rolls.

(Hey, they’re important parts of my play style.)

More seriously (apart from the gathering node bit which is super serious) the function gyro should be a candidate for further AI control of a sort, such as operating siege equipment, interactions with NPCs, holding cap circles, collecting environmental weapons, and so on. Anything that lets the scrapper perform menial tasks in addition to their combat role, where permitted by gameplay mechanics.

My main concern is not how gyros might be weak, it’s about how bland and uninteresting they look(aside from Sneak gyro). Reading through their skill description and even seeing them in action, it… it just does nothing for me. They are even less exciting than turrets. With turrets you can at least think about where to put them and when to overcharge them.

I get that you might want utility skills to be simple, but for skills designed for a class that is very much dependent on the right side of the skill bar, they just feel so half-baked and boring. What do they add? How do they fit in with the rest of the spec? How are they gonna compete with kits and gadgets in terms of fun factor? It doesn’t even seem to create interesting interplay, it’s basically like turrets but they stay right next to you, and you have no control over them, so if your opponents have some aoe or cleave they don’t have to change anything from the way they were already playing while you have nothing you can do about it.

I always wanted flying drones for engi, and I was excited to see them in HoT trailer, the possibilities were endless! Now it kind of feels like a waste of a cool theme that might not be revisited for a long time.

kevvy.5081:

1) We are talking about AA.

2) I do agree on your point about tool kit being weaker than bomb kit. It has a very nice 3s block which is so valuable in many situations. Even though Hammer is very defensive in nature we already know it does better rotations than rifle.
But autoattack? Less than rifle? Tool kit does better AA than rifle so why’s Hammer got to be less?

I wasn’t aware we were comparing only auto-attacks, but I will say that it makes sense that the tool kit’s auto attack is stronger than the rifle’s auto attack because (1) the rifle’s auto attack pierces and (2) Thwack, the third hit in the chain, doesn’t cleave. That said, I think it’s kind of silly to compare weapons only by their auto-attacks and ignore everything else they offer.

I don’t really care if the hammer auto does more damage than the rifle auto, but the hammer overall should not outdamage the rifle or else there will be no reason to ever use it. I am happy that we now have a bona fide melee weapon in the hammer, but I’ll still want to have reason to use that Predator skin I invested thousands of gold making.