Guild Wars 2

Phineas Poe.3018:

I don’t really care if the hammer auto does more damage than the rifle auto, but the hammer overall should not outdamage the rifle or else there will be no reason to ever use it. I am happy that we now have a bona fide melee weapon in the hammer, but I’ll still want to have reason to use that Predator skin I invested thousands of gold making.

I want a decent damage autoattack on the hammer for the flexibility, so I can actually MAYBE slot something in my utility and elite slots other than a damage focused kit from time to time without forgoing almost all of my damage potential. The hammer is being compared to defensive kits, which is fine and all but there’s no way to equip kits as your main hand weapon, you can’t just equip grenades or bombkit there. Especially with the addition of drones which take up a skill slot each, it looks like there’ll be even more competition for those skill slots in specific situations now.

To be clear, I don’t necessarily think it should be better than grenade kit or bomb kit AA. But I think toolkit tier is too low.

Since it is being compared though, how often does the toolkit auto chain actually get used? Why bother having an AA chain that no one ever uses? You can only use one at a time.

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that equipping a hammer requires an entire traitline to use, which puts a limit on build flexibility. If you aren’t taking the elite spec, your weapon choice is back to p/p, p/s and rifle. I don’t see rifle disappearing from SPVP any time soon regardless of hammer AA damage.

Rifle in pve is basically just 2 skills in your rotation (one on longish long cooldown) in most places. It’s not like anyone gets to see you use your predator that much as is because of that unfortunately, though I see where you are coming from.

ZDragon.3046:

Im not concerned with any of that. Im concerned with a unkillable Cele healing build that revolves around stacking all the heal options Scrapper will be able to use.
Regen boon 112 to 200 ish
Healing aoe’s roughly 200-400
Healing with swiftness per second at least 104 as shown in the stream
Healing with super speed at least 400ish as shown in the stream
Backpack regen roughly 120ish

If they route for all of these the scrapper will be healing easily more than a warrior per second and that can be gained without even counting the super speed healing.

Im wondering if some of these will need to be toned down or if damaging builds suffer when traited for these things.

This is something no one has touched on yet and I want to know has this bee modified at all or is it still as it sits right now. I don’t main engi and i have to say i don’t like fighting them so im going to be the elephant and the room and throw this on the table. Forgive me engi players but someone has to >.> Nothing personal..

There it is! The engi hate begins before the class is even out for BW3. Oh no, someone might by entirely respecing as a heal bot be able to out heal warrior’s passive signet of better than all the healz. Do you hear yourself ignoring the stability traits? Because I think you’re ignoring the reason that Engy season is about to make a comeback. Literally the best part of this elite is that most if not all the traits look GREAT. It’s going to be difficult for me to decide on a final pve vs pvp path. Meta build is going to do whatever meta build does with it, but I guarantee you the fear you should have about Scrapper is not that you won’t kill it because they ran and healed real fast. Hell, if they are doing that how are you not capping to punish them?

As for hammer vs rifle in spvp, I can’t wait to try it. At this point we have way too little data and too little experience to make a judgement call. Rolling Grenades does seem like something we will absolutely need for range engagement, like it or not.

The thing with grenade kit is that it gets away with having the damage it has (to an extent – that it’s so popular even in sPvP indicates that the internal balance is off, although it’s up to debate whether this is because grenades are too strong or the alternatives are too weak) is because ranged damage and vulnerability is basically all it has to offer. It has no mobility, no sustain, no cleanse, only one field and not a strong one, no defense, and only token control (anything else except medkit and mortar offer more control). Hammer may be melee rather than ranged, but it brings much more than damage to the table. Most melee weapons have a similar balance paradigm to a greater or lesser extent: even the most DPS-focused melee weapons usually have a little bit of mobility and control to them, while the grenade kit substitutes mobility for range (at the price of not inherently offering mobility to get away when you’re attacked back).

If you’ve got a grenade kit, it’s to be expected that it’s what you use when all you need is damage. Combine the hammer and grenade kit, and hammer gives you the survivability to not die while pelting the enemy with grenades.

The scrapper hammer seems to be intended to fill a role similar to hammers and maces on guardians and warriors – decent damage, but more about sustain and control than being an all-in DPS weapon. And it probably needs to be: if a scrapper doesn’t have kits they can’t switch to a defensive or ranged kit when pressured. However, even as a melee weapon, if the scrapper hammer was to be given grenade-like DPS, it would probably become quickly unbalanced unless it lost some of the mobility, control, and/or invulnerability/reflect frames.

In PvP at least, its current form is actually likely to result in more build versatility. Every PvP engineer build on metabattle currently includes the toolkit for much-needed durability: the scrapper hammer will probably be able to substitute for it. The grenade kit is also common in PvP and shows up in all the PvE builds, but that’s because the grenade kit is one of the most DPS-oriented options not just for the engineer but across the professions: but as described above, it pays for that by not having much else to offer.

“is because ranged damage and vulnerability is basically all it has to offer. It has no mobility, no sustain, no cleanse, only one field and not a strong one”

Just a side note grenades do not have the field anymore since the rework.

That’s right, it got shifted to the mortar (don’t really enjoy the grenade style, so I don’t play it that often). Which only enhances my point, though: grenades have high DPS because they don’t offer much else.

draxynnic.3719:

That’s right, it got shifted to the mortar (don’t really enjoy the grenade style, so I don’t play it that often). Which only enhances my point, though: grenades have high DPS because they don’t offer much else.

And that wouldn’t be a problem if it wasn’t so dull. That is a problem with ALL explosives too:

Grenade kit is:

Throw grenades. Throw red grenades. Throw white grenades. Throw blue grenades. Throw green grenades.

Bomb kit is:

Drop bomb. Drop bomb spaghetti. Drop purple bomb. Drop grey bomb. Drop gooey bomb.

Mortar kit is:

Launch shell. Launch green shell. Launch blue shell. Launch white shell. Launch HELPFUL blue shell.

None of these skills have any kitten variety. Even the OLD mortar had more skill variety than the mortar kit we have.

I think that untraited grenades AA should be weaker than untraited hammer AA. The weapons for engineers are joke already and nowhere near comparable to even untraited kits (if you don’t run at least one dmg oriented kit your dmg is virtually non existent).

Now lets go back to the topic.
Irenio what I am wonder what niche medic gyro suposed to fill. If you answer this question yourself then it would be easier to balance it. Maybe make it stronger Heal over time, but only apply 1 target at the time, maybe heal should gradually increase as long it is alive.
Could at least Bulwark Gyro have some additional dmg resistance against AoE that he is not primary target of (all area targeted skills and cleaves – unless gyro is only thing that got hurt by that dmg).
Function Gyro is really underwhelming in PvE, and there were some nice ideas like:
- long range resources gathering
- picking up bundles and giving them to you (conjured weapons, random items laying around, cliffside fractal hammer)
- opening chests
- using leavers, and other interactive objects
- even as remote controller to siege weapons (well WvW would appreciated it more)

NiBlack.3149:

I think that untraited grenades AA should be weaker than untraited hammer AA. The weapons for engineers are joke already and nowhere near comparable to even untraited kits (if you don’t run at least one dmg oriented kit your dmg is virtually non existent).

Maybe we shouldn’t be balanced over the assumption we’ll use some specific optional utilities to begin with, since that’s what forces us to use said utilities. That’s the textbook definition of a vicious circle, basically.

I was thinking about the problem with the extreme narrow use in the base mechanic of the spec, and suddenly got it:
Its not a base nechanic at all. Its a utility skill, maybe an elite one. I feel Anet is forcing a skill on us and claiming it to be a “game changing mechanic”.

Please transform the FGyro in a optional skill, and give the spec a real new mechanic. Anything that we can use with some impact on every mode. Not something that feels like an optional tool that is only good for some builds on certain modes.

Ricky Rouse.1583:

draxynnic.3719:

That’s right, it got shifted to the mortar (don’t really enjoy the grenade style, so I don’t play it that often). Which only enhances my point, though: grenades have high DPS because they don’t offer much else.

And that wouldn’t be a problem if it wasn’t so dull. That is a problem with ALL explosives too:

Grenade kit is:

Throw grenades. Throw red grenades. Throw white grenades. Throw blue grenades. Throw green grenades.

Bomb kit is:

Drop bomb. Drop bomb spaghetti. Drop purple bomb. Drop grey bomb. Drop gooey bomb.

Mortar kit is:

Launch shell. Launch green shell. Launch blue shell. Launch white shell. Launch HELPFUL blue shell.

None of these skills have any kitten variety. Even the OLD mortar had more skill variety than the mortar kit we have.

To a certain extent, you’re on point with grenade kit (although smart use of the grenade kit has you use blind, chill, and poison strategically), but the combo fields on bomb and mortar make these skills very diverse, even if they are otherwise mechanically homogeneous.

Dahkeus.8243:

Ricky Rouse.1583:

draxynnic.3719:

That’s right, it got shifted to the mortar (don’t really enjoy the grenade style, so I don’t play it that often). Which only enhances my point, though: grenades have high DPS because they don’t offer much else.

And that wouldn’t be a problem if it wasn’t so dull. That is a problem with ALL explosives too:

Grenade kit is:

Throw grenades. Throw red grenades. Throw white grenades. Throw blue grenades. Throw green grenades.

Bomb kit is:

Drop bomb. Drop bomb spaghetti. Drop purple bomb. Drop grey bomb. Drop gooey bomb.

Mortar kit is:

Launch shell. Launch green shell. Launch blue shell. Launch white shell. Launch HELPFUL blue shell.

None of these skills have any kitten variety. Even the OLD mortar had more skill variety than the mortar kit we have.

To a certain extent, you’re on point with grenade kit (although smart use of the grenade kit has you use blind, chill, and poison strategically), but the combo fields on bomb and mortar make these skills very diverse, even if they are otherwise mechanically homogeneous.

I would agree with you if both bomb and Mortar kit didn’t have long travel times and delays.

You have to use it all preemptively, which basically translates into throw down the blinds before they even begin their animations for anything that isn’t Kill Shot and Pin Down. Flash grenades can be used in a tech-manner, but with the way conditions work you are MUCH better off landing poison earlier to get the damage in rather than right before they heal.

Also, Chill and Immobilize are almost always better if used first so you actually hit a majority of your grenades/the rest of your AoE. If they move too far away you’re going to have some serious issues landing much of anything. Just like Glue Shot, you never use it to prevent an escape, you use it to ensure they can’t dodge Blowtorch.

icewyrm.5038:

I want a decent damage autoattack on the hammer for the flexibility, so I can actually MAYBE slot something in my utility and elite slots other than a damage focused kit from time to time without forgoing almost all of my damage potential. The hammer is being compared to defensive kits, which is fine and all but there’s no way to equip kits as your main hand weapon, you can’t just equip grenades or bombkit there.

To be clear, I don’t necessarily think it should be better than grenade kit or bomb kit AA. But I think toolkit tier is too low.

Since it is being compared though, how often does the toolkit auto chain actually get used? Why bother having an AA chain that no one ever uses? You can only use one at a time.

You just said that there’s no way to equip kits as your main hand weapon, so the comparison is unfair, but that’s actually the crux of my entire argument: because you can already use the bomb kit or grenade kit for damage, the hammer should be designed and taken for something else.

The strength of our profession is the ability to use high damage kits like bombs and grenades alongside highly defensive kits like the elixir gun and mortar. And I would like to think that the engineer’s balance between other professions is evaluated by this.

Those of us that have been composing and defining the meta the past three years have always been about trying to get more out of our kits and weapons than the sum of their parts and not making choices based on an individual constituent of a skill set. Having the hammer replace the bomb kit really doesn’t do anything for us, and actually lowers the ceiling of our build diversity; it’s actually in the best interest of engineers everywhere that the hammer isn’t designed for damage but maximizing defensive gains because we already have among the highest damage options out there, and I don’t see why that will change.

It’s important, then, that the hammer be introduced and evaluated on the basis of providing things we don’t already have, or things that we lack, and not replacing what’s already meta. And if the hammer were to replace the bomb kit or grenade kit in the meta, I would hope it is done so because we’ve been forced into using more defensively-oriented builds and not by trivializing the damage advantage in Explosives builds.

I see your point now.
I do understand and agree on the point about how Hammer having better AA could trivialize bomb and grenade kits.
As much I would like for Hammer to have the best AA, since I no longer would have to spam 1 on my keyboard with grenade – It would put an unnecessary kitten on an otherwise the only good aspect about bomb/grenade AA’s – that they have the meta dps and nothing else, no control or defense except few blinds.
Still Irenio has said the Hammer’s AA dps has increased somewhat so we’ll see. Otherwise I guess my carpel tunnel is here to stay

Manuhell.2759:

NiBlack.3149:

I think that untraited grenades AA should be weaker than untraited hammer AA. The weapons for engineers are joke already and nowhere near comparable to even untraited kits (if you don’t run at least one dmg oriented kit your dmg is virtually non existent).

Maybe we shouldn’t be balanced over the assumption we’ll use some specific optional utilities to begin with, since that’s what forces us to use said utilities. That’s the textbook definition of a vicious circle, basically.

The issue is that we have to be balanced around the fact that we CAN use specific utilities to maximize our damage.

If you balance around only one kit being equipped, anyone who takes 4 kits will be playing with godmode turned on.

I only see 2 ways to fix this, and neither option is a trivial task:
1) You can make all of our weapons and kits almost entirely reliant on the AAs for damage, and make the 2-5 skills utility-like from a damage standpoint. This would prevent you from cycling through the Acid Bombs and Shrapnel Grenades of the world for the damage they provide. This would probably make things incredibly boring to play, but would most likely be the easiest option to implement.

2) You can neuter kits across the board and create a series of Old Grenadier style traits that take them from niche utilities up to weapon status, but make sure you can’t pick up all of the traits at the same time. You’d see stuff like gear shield on a 50 second CD, but with a trait to reduce the CD on toolkit skills by 50%. This probably is a better long term solution, but would require much more finesse to get right.

Neither of those is going to happen overnight, or almost certainly not before HoT releases.

In the short/medium term, get used to the current design paradigm. It probably isn’t going anywhere really soon.

TL;DR: Balancing Engy is hard.

the community asked to not have AI Irenio. many threads were made, but you still went ahead and made them. not only did you make a whole set of AI, but you made them with long CDs and crappy effects.

why did you think this would make any of us happy with you?

we are THE ONLY profession with so many ai skills.

Turrets x6 (because supply crate too)
Gyros x6

Bit too much huh ?

Nice post Knox, and that second suggestion sounds pretty cool. Either way engi’s awesome. Just kinda sad that there’s such a big gap in play style options.

Knox.8962:

Manuhell.2759:

NiBlack.3149:

I think that untraited grenades AA should be weaker than untraited hammer AA. The weapons for engineers are joke already and nowhere near comparable to even untraited kits (if you don’t run at least one dmg oriented kit your dmg is virtually non existent).

Maybe we shouldn’t be balanced over the assumption we’ll use some specific optional utilities to begin with, since that’s what forces us to use said utilities. That’s the textbook definition of a vicious circle, basically.

The issue is that we have to be balanced around the fact that we CAN use specific utilities to maximize our damage.

If you balance around only one kit being equipped, anyone who takes 4 kits will be playing with godmode turned on.

I only see 2 ways to fix this, and neither option is a trivial task:
1) You can make all of our weapons and kits almost entirely reliant on the AAs for damage, and make the 2-5 skills utility-like from a damage standpoint. This would prevent you from cycling through the Acid Bombs and Shrapnel Grenades of the world for the damage they provide. This would probably make things incredibly boring to play, but would most likely be the easiest option to implement.

2) You can neuter kits across the board and create a series of Old Grenadier style traits that take them from niche utilities up to weapon status, but make sure you can’t pick up all of the traits at the same time. You’d see stuff like gear shield on a 50 second CD, but with a trait to reduce the CD on toolkit skills by 50%. This probably is a better long term solution, but would require much more finesse to get right.

Neither of those is going to happen overnight, or almost certainly not before HoT releases.

In the short/medium term, get used to the current design paradigm. It probably isn’t going anywhere really soon.

TL;DR: Balancing Engy is hard.

It would make sense…if only the rest of the game was balanced like that, too.
Except that it really doesn’t work so.
We’re the only class balanced (and designed, given the lack of the second weapon) over assumptions. The assumption to use a particular skill type, or even some traits (grenadier in the past -grenades were balanced over the use of that trait, but i guess even siege rounds applies, given the mediocrity of the base mortar).

Let’s just make an example. Warriors can use banners to raise their stats and the ones of their allies, but this doesn’t mean they have lower stats to begin with. They have a grandmaster trait that makes them heal allies with their shouts, but it isn’t like their healing skills (or the shouts either) are balanced over that optional trait. They get straight bonuses from their utilities/traits, and they aren’t balanced over the assumption they will have them at any time.
And that’s how it should be. That’s what optional means. Sure, some things may be stronger than others, but that’s something that can be solved by balancing them.
Whereas we pay some prices in advance (no second weapon slot, main weapon having weak dps* because we may use kits…forcing us to use them for that reason) and we have to end up balancing over vicious circles due to nonsensical design choices. That’s something you can do with the main mechanic -something that’s forced and given for free at any time. Not with something mechanically optional. Cause it ends up not being optional anymore. Again, a vicious circle. Driven by a broken kit-based design.

*refer to classes balance philosophies, written in one of the december 2012 patch notes

Or should i talk about the new elite specs? Some classes are getting powerful abilities in addition to all they had before. And yet this doesn’t seem to be an issue, they just get them as an added bonus.
Yet, with the engineer, anything becomes an issue. Even if we get the most niche elite spec mechanic of the bunch.

Balancing the engineer is hard? Yeah, probably it is, but they brought it to themselves with such a design. Maybe they should fix the cause of the issues, instead of catering to past ideas that go even against the whole concept of the elite specializations, locking us to old utilities and forcing peculiar balancings of anything we can get.

I love the kit swapping, while I wouldn’t disagree that it’s the cause of this discussion, or that it may be a bit nonsensical, I wouldn’t change this funky fun gameplay. It’s why I play Engineer.

Manuhell.2759:

It would make sense…if only the rest of the game was balanced like that, too.
Except that it really doesn’t work so.
We’re the only class balanced (and designed, given the lack of the second weapon) over assumptions. The assumption to use a particular skill type…

Engineer is the only class that is able to freely swap between kits and weapons with no cooldown. There is 0 opportunity cost for flipping in to Elixir gun, hitting acid bomb, and then swapping back out. Every other class would be stuck in that weaponset for 10 (or 5 if traited for warriors) and be forced to use the rest of the tools on that weapon. Additionally, they only have access to 2 weaponsets at a time, while the engy has as many kitten or 6 (if you count the healing kit).

Is it a design issue? Absolutely. Is it fixable? Probably. Will it be quick and easy to do? certainly not.

Ricky Rouse.1583:

draxynnic.3719:

That’s right, it got shifted to the mortar (don’t really enjoy the grenade style, so I don’t play it that often). Which only enhances my point, though: grenades have high DPS because they don’t offer much else.

And that wouldn’t be a problem if it wasn’t so dull. That is a problem with ALL explosives too:

Grenade kit is:

Throw grenades. Throw red grenades. Throw white grenades. Throw blue grenades. Throw green grenades.

Bomb kit is:

Drop bomb. Drop bomb spaghetti. Drop purple bomb. Drop grey bomb. Drop gooey bomb.

Mortar kit is:

Launch shell. Launch green shell. Launch blue shell. Launch white shell. Launch HELPFUL blue shell.

None of these skills have any kitten variety. Even the OLD mortar had more skill variety than the mortar kit we have.

Agreed. I’m not particularly fond of the ‘grenades or GTFO’ meta myself, which is why I haven’t played it much myself, and for basically the reasons you describe. However, the point is that it gets away with having high DPS because it offers so little beyond DPS. Using it as the yardstick against which the hammer’s DPS would be measured against, when the hammer also offers shutdown and decent defensive capability, would probably result in the hammer being overpowered, melee or not.

Looking at the numbers, the scrapper hammer seems to have more DPS than the warrior hammer (certainly before Earthshaker is taken into account…) and probably the guardian hammer as well (that’s harder to get a feel for by looking at the numbers, but as is typical for the guardian most of the damage is in the first couple of skills), while having a comparable amount of utility. I don’t think either of these weapons are currently in meta builds, but they have been not too long ago and certainly aren’t seen as bad. We’ll get a better idea of just how it handles in combat next weekend, but I think it’s better to compare against equivalents from other professions, rather than to compare against a kit whose DPS is balanced against not having much else to offer.

Ok, WHY do you make Scrappers so “engineer theme like”, while converting ranger to something entire different, which I totally do not sign up for when I first peak my eye on rangers?

Regardless, I’d be ditching ranger in HoT since healer is not the reason why I pick ranger in the first place. Engineer looks so much like engineer theme, and the utilities are so much better than those broken UP glyphs, which look like random ideas come out of your mind because it has no synergy with most of the ranger’s build, even staff itself. (PBAOE on 300 range with long CD and no additional effect like Stunbreak? Sign me out please. Utter garbage skills)

Aomine.5012:

Ok, WHY do you make Scrappers so “engineer theme like”, while converting ranger to something entire different, which I totally do not sign up for when I first peak my eye on rangers?

Regardless, I’d be ditching ranger in HoT since healer is not the reason why I pick ranger in the first place. Engineer looks so much like engineer theme, and the utilities are so much better than those broken UP glyphs, which look like random ideas come out of your mind because it has no synergy with most of the ranger’s build, even staff itself. (PBAOE on 300 range with long CD and no additional effect like Stunbreak? Sign me out please. Utter garbage skills)

It is the engineer forum, thanks

Nieguen.6235:

Aomine.5012:

Ok, WHY do you make Scrappers so “engineer theme like”, while converting ranger to something entire different, which I totally do not sign up for when I first peak my eye on rangers?

Regardless, I’d be ditching ranger in HoT since healer is not the reason why I pick ranger in the first place. Engineer looks so much like engineer theme, and the utilities are so much better than those broken UP glyphs, which look like random ideas come out of your mind because it has no synergy with most of the ranger’s build, even staff itself. (PBAOE on 300 range with long CD and no additional effect like Stunbreak? Sign me out please. Utter garbage skills)

It is the engineer forum, thanks

I’m making a comparison between Scrapper and Druid, since both of them are designed by this developer, and ranger gets no red post.

I’m just thinking why Engi get this “cool Engi theme class”, while ranger transformed into something entirely different (Whether good or bad), which is totally not ranger-ish.

Aomine.5012:

Nieguen.6235:

Aomine.5012:

Ok, WHY do you make Scrappers so “engineer theme like”, while converting ranger to something entire different, which I totally do not sign up for when I first peak my eye on rangers?

Regardless, I’d be ditching ranger in HoT since healer is not the reason why I pick ranger in the first place. Engineer looks so much like engineer theme, and the utilities are so much better than those broken UP glyphs, which look like random ideas come out of your mind because it has no synergy with most of the ranger’s build, even staff itself. (PBAOE on 300 range with long CD and no additional effect like Stunbreak? Sign me out please. Utter garbage skills)

It is the engineer forum, thanks

I’m making a comparison between Scrapper and Druid, since both of them are designed by this developer, and ranger gets no red post.

I’m just thinking why Engi get this “cool Engi theme class”, while ranger transformed into something entirely different (Whether good or bad), which is totally not ranger-ish.

→ The gyros seem to be useless (AI+ low life + melee…), the whole trait design is for superspeed which is not designed for stacking, so please the “cool Engi theme class”…, graphical design is nice, gameplay is better.

→ They changed the ranger because currently, sorry to say it, the gameplay has nothing entertaining, so they want to give another direction by giving a new design to this class, consequently with such a change, wait for the bwe.

→ You make points about the Druid which should be a talk in more details in the ranger forum, currently this post is about the concern of the Engi spec design.

Nieguen.6235:

Aomine.5012:

Nieguen.6235:

Aomine.5012:

Ok, WHY do you make Scrappers so “engineer theme like”, while converting ranger to something entire different, which I totally do not sign up for when I first peak my eye on rangers?

Regardless, I’d be ditching ranger in HoT since healer is not the reason why I pick ranger in the first place. Engineer looks so much like engineer theme, and the utilities are so much better than those broken UP glyphs, which look like random ideas come out of your mind because it has no synergy with most of the ranger’s build, even staff itself. (PBAOE on 300 range with long CD and no additional effect like Stunbreak? Sign me out please. Utter garbage skills)

It is the engineer forum, thanks

I’m making a comparison between Scrapper and Druid, since both of them are designed by this developer, and ranger gets no red post.

I’m just thinking why Engi get this “cool Engi theme class”, while ranger transformed into something entirely different (Whether good or bad), which is totally not ranger-ish.

-> The gyros seem to be useless (AI+ low life + melee…), the whole trait design is for superspeed which is not designed for stacking, so please the “cool Engi theme class”…, graphical design is nice, gameplay is better.

-> They changed the ranger because currently, sorry to say it, the gameplay has nothing entertaining, so they want to give another direction by giving a new design to this class, consequently with such a change, wait for the bwe.

-> You make points about the Druid which should be a talk in more details in the ranger forum, currently this post is about the concern of the Engi spec design.

Yeah, but sadly doesn’t seem like we’ll be getting a red post :/
This is the only red post I can depend on.

Kinda disapointed with the whole function Gyro as mechanic. Rangers getting Life Shroud, we get a 30sec cd 750range rez/stomp, that will just get killed very quickly because these gyro’s are so kitten squishy.
Cannot imagine it being something that consistently proves usefull in pve.

Gyro’s are bad, all of them. Engineers do not have the luxery of slotting all kinds of utility skills because we need those slots for kits as Engineers dont get weaponswap.

Besides, what good is the explosive gyro when a Mine does the same thing at half the cooldown plus strips boons, but none of the counterplay? A whirl gyro just gets people to step out or pay it some attacks if it doesnt get killed in a cleave. Again, Engineers dont have the same luxery like other professions to go and slot pure-damage utility skills.

The iDefender never gets used because it’s not good. Why would a similar skill be good on a profession that is far more strapped for utility slots? And considering how close it follows you around, any aoe is very likely to hit that Gyro as well. Greatly diminishing it’s use.

The Healing Gyro is so close to a Healing Turret in functionality, but the HT just does it better in every way. Without having to keep a squishy AI alive. Purge gyro, ditto.

Sneak Gyro is not good because it remains visible. The whole point, the whole strength, of stealth is that your opponent does not know where you are. Makes enemies hesitant to use skills because of the risk of wasting vital CC/damage and easily missing.
The Sneak gyro being visible defeats this purpose and makes the counterplay incredibly simple. Just hit the floating gyro once or twice. Or better yet, throw aoe underneath the gyro, hit whoever is hidding and kill the gyro. Two birds in one stone.

What stands out the most with these gyro’s is that it’s so incredibly easy for enemies to counterplay them. Superspeed is also not what it used to be now that it doesn’t effect leap/dash range anymore.

The Scrapper traits are very pidgeonholing. Powerful if you combo it with the other Obvious traits. If you don’t than the use of these traits falls dramatically. It seems to me like these traits like Rapid Regeneration and Mass Momentum where designed for the express purpose of being taken along Juggernaut or Speedy Kits/Shocking Speed respectively.
Recovery Matrix is not bad, not great, but not bad. Stabilization Core is situational at best, if there is nothing (in range) to rez or stomp this trait does nothing.

Hammer skills i think are good, genuinely good. It has mobility, CC and defensive skills. Exactly what it really needs to have. Just that the cooldowns seem to be quite long on 4 and 5, and for some reason Engineers have lost the majority of their cd reduction traits and cannot seem to have them anymore either.

I would not play Scrapper. It offers far to little, it hardly has an identity that sets it apart from an Engineer. I’d essentially be playing the same thing. The (underwhelming) function gyro does not distinguish it in a way that other profession mechanics do for the other elite specializations.

Terrahero.9358:

I would not play Scrapper. It offers far to little, it hardly has an identity that sets it apart from an Engineer. I’d essentially be playing the same thing. The (underwhelming) function gyro does not distinguish it in a way that other profession mechanics do for the other elite specializations.

The Function Gyro is absolutely not underwhelming from a PvP perspective.

Do you know how kitten hard it is to win a fight that you’re outnumbered in? Even if you get a down, you can’t stomp if they have an extra person reviving.

Or you just barely can’t stop someone from getting revived because nobody was able to stomp, due to everyone being forced to cleave.

The Engineer can cleave and stomp at the same time, the Engineer can double revive, both with stability

Is this sinking in

Chaith.8256:

Terrahero.9358:

I would not play Scrapper. It offers far to little, it hardly has an identity that sets it apart from an Engineer. I’d essentially be playing the same thing. The (underwhelming) function gyro does not distinguish it in a way that other profession mechanics do for the other elite specializations.

The Function Gyro is absolutely not underwhelming from a PvP perspective.

Do you know how kitten hard it is to win a fight that you’re outnumbered in? Even if you get a down, you can’t stomp if they have an extra person reviving.

Or you just barely can’t stop someone from getting revived because nobody was able to stomp, due to everyone being forced to cleave.

The Engineer can cleave and stomp at the same time, the Engineer can double revive, both with stability

Is this sinking in

It sounds great for pvp and the second minor adds onto it, but how do either of these traits effect a pve and wvw standpoint were stomping is either extremely rare or its a waste of time compared to cleaving downed players? I think the second minor needs to give the boons when you defeat an enemy instead of just stomping them so at least it has some use in pve and wvw with the 10 sec cd it shouldn’t be too much too ask for. The other issue is superspeed durations need to be all leveled out since it wont stack having durations overwrite each other is bad if you lose a 5 sec superspeed and end up with a 2 sec proc.

I went off topic, but some of these issues ties directly too the function gyro so I thought I may as well add them. Function gyro as presented is a very useful ability the stuff tied too it not so much.

Chaith.8256:

Terrahero.9358:

I would not play Scrapper. It offers far to little, it hardly has an identity that sets it apart from an Engineer. I’d essentially be playing the same thing. The (underwhelming) function gyro does not distinguish it in a way that other profession mechanics do for the other elite specializations.

The Function Gyro is absolutely not underwhelming from a PvP perspective.

Do you know how kitten hard it is to win a fight that you’re outnumbered in? Even if you get a down, you can’t stomp if they have an extra person reviving.

Or you just barely can’t stop someone from getting revived because nobody was able to stomp, due to everyone being forced to cleave.

The Engineer can cleave and stomp at the same time, the Engineer can double revive, both with stability

Is this sinking in

The vast majority of people play pve and wvw, where this does far less. Does THAT sink in?

And stomping is far from guarenteed. 3 professions can avoid a stomp from someone with stability, and have enough damage that they can likely kill the gyro before it finishes the second attempt all on their own. Does THAT sink in?

You’d still have to babysit the Gyro to see if it actually does it’s job. And when it fails you are now to far away to do it yourself in time, and the gyro is on a whopping 30sec cd.

Terrahero.9358:

Chaith.8256:

Terrahero.9358:

I would not play Scrapper. It offers far to little, it hardly has an identity that sets it apart from an Engineer. I’d essentially be playing the same thing. The (underwhelming) function gyro does not distinguish it in a way that other profession mechanics do for the other elite specializations.

The Function Gyro is absolutely not underwhelming from a PvP perspective.

Do you know how kitten hard it is to win a fight that you’re outnumbered in? Even if you get a down, you can’t stomp if they have an extra person reviving.

Or you just barely can’t stop someone from getting revived because nobody was able to stomp, due to everyone being forced to cleave.

The Engineer can cleave and stomp at the same time, the Engineer can double revive, both with stability

Is this sinking in

The vast majority of people play pve and wvw, where this does far less. Does THAT sink in?

And stomping is far from guarenteed. 3 professions can avoid a stomp from someone with stability, and have enough damage that they can likely kill the gyro before it finishes the second attempt all on their own. Does THAT sink in?

You’d still have to babysit the Gyro to see if it actually does it’s job. And when it fails you are now to far away to do it yourself in time, and the gyro is on a whopping 30sec cd.

Who’s gonna do however many thousand damage to a Gyro when you should be reviving your ally? You have 3 seconds until the Gyro stomps. Your whole dissatisfaction with the Gyro is that its stability stomp will fail every time.

Do you know the HP pool, cause I don’t. Might be a bit premature to assume it’ll never do its job as intended.

The much better argument against the Function Gyro and Decisive Renown (boons on revive or finish) is that it really only is good in PvP.

And that is unfortunate.

Few setups in this game are insanely efficient in multiple game modes though.

Necromancer gets reaper form and new skills to go with it
Warrior gets beserker and new burst to go with it
Mesemer alacrity and a new shatter that is cool
Elementalist cool new overloads for their elements
Guardian New virtues a chain, leap and shield effects
Revenant gets to increase outgoing and incoming boons by 50% himself and others around him
Thief gets new dodge bar and effects
Rangers get to change into a celestial being for some time

What do the engineers get the scrapper?
Pointed at by the others and laughed at

We get to rez and stomp people. That is right. We can send a bot out to rez somebody. And to do that We need to take focus off we are doing for a moment to have the bot do that if it isn’t lagging so bad you don’t have to try a few times. And then once the bot is summoned hope that nobody is cleaving that area to make sure it can’t rez them. Cause if the area is being hit by aoe the bot is dead or both the player and the bot is dead.

Second we get a stomp Which I don’t do anyways I mean why go up to stomp somebody that is going to move instead you bash them or shoot them to death. And it is a lot faster to shoot or continue to attack the target anyways I have seen.

Either way The scrapper is given the scraps again. Function gyro does not offer a new mechanic it is a mechanic that already exists.

I’m not saying the function gyro is bad really. I’m just saying for a class mechanic it’s more an extra then a main new mechanic. After all we are not scrapper the field medic but scrapper the bruisers. Supposed to have turned our name from a slur to something that we can be proud of. But I don’t see that in this mechanic. I don’t see use using Anything that we might have learned from our scrapping days. I’d like to see something that fits that image.

We are engineers…….scrappers lets build something.

RunicAura.9860:

Necromancer gets reaper form and new skills to go with it
Warrior gets beserker and new burst to go with it
Mesemer alacrity and a new shatter that is cool
Elementalist cool new overloads for their elements
Guardian New virtues a chain, leap and shield effects
Revenant gets to increase outgoing and incoming boons by 50% himself and others around him
Thief gets new dodge bar and effects
Rangers get to change into a celestial being for some time

What do the engineers get the scrapper?
Pointed at by the others and laughed at

Indeed, going from Engineer to Scrapper will have extremely little learning curve, basically none, if you don’t take hammer.

Function Gyro needs to be pillar for the identity of the Scrapper, what really sets apart a Scrapper from an Engineer. This is the class mechanic we get from the first minor trait, a parallel to Reaper’s Shroud, Celestial Avatar, Overload Attunement, Continuum Split, Dragonhunter Virtues, Legendary Dragon Stance, Primal Bursts.

Other than the Engineer, only the Thief’s third dodge bar doesn’t really alter the playstyle significantly.

Currently, the Scrapper defining minor trait reads this: “You gain access to the Function Gyro, which can finish a foe or revive an ally at range.”

What I would suggest is:

Function Gyro: Gain access to up to 3 non-combative Function Gyros which encircle you. Periodically construct a function Gyro every 60 seconds. Command a Function Gyro to join the fray to finish foes or revive allies. (20s CD).

Reworking Impact Savant, the last Minor, as well:

Impact Savant: Deal 4% more damage, and reduce the duration of incoming stuns by 10% for each encircling Function Gyro.

What this accomplishes is creates a system of Gyro management that Scrappers in all game modes would be able to manipulate to their benefit. PvE Scrappers would enjoy great uptime of a 4-12% damage modifier. Non PvE Scrappers would get help from a Function Gyro every 20 seconds if they managed production well, and didn’t deplete resources.

Best of all, it’d be a constantly present theme that adds a bit more substance to the Scrapper’s core class mechanic, keeping it closer to the same feel players had when watching the Scrapper in the HoT trailer.

Why do people not look at the function gyro as a nice extra revive in PvE, where I could revive an Ally and continue fighting. This sounds awesome.
And yea it is not something powerful for PvE all together I still think in all modes some implementations from the elite can be put in our core class. If this happens it is a success in my book.

We will get future specializations and maybe those will have other things which are “useless” in PvP for then.

The core mechanic of the elite class should be something that helps define what the scrapper is. Something you use that shows others Hey I’m a scrapper. The function gyro doesn’t do this. Everybody can rez and most likely better then a gyro can. Everybody can stomp and once again better then the gyro most likely can. I find the function gyro of no use. And what use does a solo player have for the function gyro? To Me this mechanic seems to be just an offshoot a second thought of something that could have been better. Its a oh we gave you something and it allows you to go and rez at a distance as well or stomp at a distant as well. Its not something that is worthy of a core mechanic as it is. Look at the other professions. Their core mechanic isn’t as much of an after thought. The thief is the only other profession I can agree with at the moment. And there is still hope for them to get their dodges in toggle form. But their defining attributes are there. They have extra dodge bar and the dodge effects are cool. The function gyro is just a rez machine that may or may not rez somebody or a stomp machine that may or may not stomp somebody. The function gyro offers a may or may not happen function that is only useful maybe every once in awhile. And useless if you are a solo player. It is not something that is useful or profession defining in all aspects of play. Of course this is my opinion and your free to have your own. But lets just say I feel it is a part of a mechanic not a core mechanic. And as somebody that plays a few different engineers the only thing that makes me want to try scrapper is the hammer skills which looks very cool. The gyros are worth trying out. but the function gyro to me just stinks and puts a damper on the whole elite spec. I’ve posted a few possible core mechanics suggestions in another thread. I urge Irenio CalmonHuang to look over them and other players to suggest their thoughts on it. And hopefully Irenio CalmonHuang will find something that will define the scrapper better then it is at this point. Cause the druid looks awesome I’ll defiantly be playing one. But I want Scrapper to be just as good. I can admit that I want Scrapper to be better but I’ll settle for something that is just as good.

Lets face it the community has been asking for a few things fixed I hope to also see the medkit fixed to provide better support for group play not single person play. Of course that is another thread.

Stasticeel.2745:

Why do people not look at the function gyro as a nice extra revive in PvE, where I could revive an Ally and continue fighting. This sounds awesome.
And yea it is not something powerful for PvE all together I still think in all modes some implementations from the elite can be put in our core class. If this happens it is a success in my book.

We will get future specializations and maybe those will have other things which are “useless” in PvP for then.

It’s not that the f gyro isn’t a neat new feature. I like PvP, and play it more than pve. I think the f gyro is “neat.” The problem is that it just seems so sloppy and trivial compared to what other professions got. I mean this is another bot that runs a rez/stomp animation, and wasn’t even ready to show at the scrapper reveal – the second-to-last reveal!? Somehow I really don’t believe this was the plan all along.

What if the function drone was able to use kits on a Shift F2-F5 Bar. :P
That would be pretty insane.

One thought that just struck me…

You can’t do it in PvP, but if the function gyro can res fully defeated players (and there’s no reason to think it couldn’t), this could be big. There’s a good chance it couldn’t do it in one go before running out of fuel, but in difficult instanced content, you could send out function gyros, continue concentrating on staying alive and doing damage, and get that ally back up with a lot less effort than it would normally.

Now, this could encourage people not to waypoint and run back in open-world content… but then, if the scrappers take a few moments every so often to throw out a function drone, then events that don’t simply have so much AoE that the drones can’t survive might not need to rely so much on waypointing and running back any more.

Sure, it doesn’t help when soloing (except when ressing NPCs) but I can see a role for it in high-end PvE, especially if the difficulty level is ramped up as much as promised.

Aomine.5012:

Ok, WHY do you make Scrappers so “engineer theme like”, while converting ranger to something entire different, which I totally do not sign up for when I first peak my eye on rangers?

Regardless, I’d be ditching ranger in HoT since healer is not the reason why I pick ranger in the first place. Engineer looks so much like engineer theme, and the utilities are so much better than those broken UP glyphs, which look like random ideas come out of your mind because it has no synergy with most of the ranger’s build, even staff itself. (PBAOE on 300 range with long CD and no additional effect like Stunbreak? Sign me out please. Utter garbage skills)

First, it took a few days after the scrapper livestream for this thread to start.

Second, it seems to be part of the plan that some elite specialisations are more along the lines of expanded options to the core gameplay of the profession (chronomancer being probably the prime example) while others are essentially secondary professions (dragonhunter). Druid falls into the second category. There’s nothing stopping you from continuing to play a ranger as a ranger without taking druid.

But yeah, check the date at which this thread started. You’ll get your feedback thread in the ranger forum, it just might not be until Tuesday or so.

Aomine.5012:

Yeah, but sadly doesn’t seem like we’ll be getting a red post :/
This is the only red post I can depend on.

why are you so desperate to think youre being heard? post something worth reading in its proper place and it will get the attention it deserves.

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

In my off-work hours I’ve been watching the forums and wanted to reply to some of your concerns and discuss some design intent.

I have my own doubts concerning this. Since launch there have been very clear opinions against the use of AI based play and this prejudice was only amplified during the brief period where our turrets were FINALLY usable. This means there is only one feasible outcome for the fate of gyros in order to prevent another uproar over AI based play, which would be to make them a mediocre element at best when played by even the elite of us. Gyros appear to be only slightly more interactive than turrets; potentially prompting public backlash yet again.

To suggest that the forums have been and are being monitored for our position on the subject seems pretty offensive, because as of this point the only solution to our turrets has been to replace them with a different AI component? I would like to say that I am surprised by this, but sadly I am beginning to expect such. Up to this point I still have not heard of any advancements or alterations that would put our (once again) useless line to even a mediocre status of their own.

TL;DR
Hoping Gyros =/= Turret 2.0 and turrets become slightly more than garbage in all modes.

P.S.
I sincerely hope that Scrapper will turn out to be a success. I may even enjoy Gyros to some degree, provided that they do not devolve into another state of uselessness that has currently befallen our current turret line.

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

Hey all,

Since the Scrapper reveal I’ve been up to my eyeballs in Druid development.

In my off-work hours I’ve been watching the forums and wanted to reply to some of your concerns and discuss some design intent.

(…)

• Bulwark Gyro has a decent pool of health and low defense. If you and several allies are taking heavy AoE then it is going to die quickly; that is the situation where it should die quickly. This is a skill that has the potential to be very strong. I’ll be watching feedback closely, but I am holding off on any changes for now until you’ve have had the chance to play with it.

(…)

That’s all for now!

@ Irenio, i still belive gyros share the same destiny of Spirit weapons, this is a case where skills dont work becouse game mechanics do not allow it, so they might work on paper only, since they are susceptibility to everything far weaker than heavy aoe (since gw2 is only based on having lots of AOE and high damage output), and if even SW are easy to get killed on 1 vs 1 (same will happend to gyros)on X vs X they will mostly enter in cooldown automatically after being casted in a fight.

Ive seen traited SW’s being destroyed by just symbol of swiftness… it would be sad if this happens also to gyros.

Can i recomend some ideass?
-Gyros cannot be critted
-Imune to condis in the first seconds when casted
- Improve A,I to no get into the midle of AOE, to avoid the bahavior of SW: they tend to desingage player side and run right into the biggest aoe zone while theres no one to defend, imagine a SoA trying to absorb heavy AOE while skill not ment for that, this happens often.
- Set flag control (similiar to hero control from gw) to control gyros and make them out of AOE zone since they dont have A.I for that.

Sorry guys this is not a guardian post, but as a player that plays both classes it feels the SW problem all over again, the excuse that they are strong but in the action that will not happen becouse they will die mostly after cast or they only work against afk players.

It’s just so surreal that we actually have a second set of Turret-status utilities.

Maybe they can be reworked from persistent and autonomous little plebs into gyro themed attacks or abilities.

Hammer, ok that’s cool.
Function Gyro.. uh alright that’s kinda neat though that 30second CD will make it a novelty instead of something to be relied on.

And Turrets 2.0

Too late to get a refund on HoT?

I main an Engineer, and I spend the bulk of my time in PVP and Fractals. Let me begin by saying that I am also disappointed by the gyros in their initial form. However, I am still incredibly hyped to try out the Scrapper.

I think that Scrapper Hammer offers possibly the best weapon skill additions by an elite spec. Where elites like Reaper and Berserker ended up with a trait line that has excellent synergy within the new elite traits, the Scrapper received arguably the best trait line for synergy with existing traits.

Considering that no elite spec got everything (weapon, utilities, traits, class mechanic), I think that the Scrapper did pretty well for it’s initial pre-BWE reveal.

Class mechanic – The Function Gyro

Pros

• rez/stomp from a distance
• double rez for quicker rez
• double stomp to ensure successful stomp
• body block or cleave while gyro stomps
• apply pressure or kite enemies while gyro rezzes
• apply boons to function gyro (quick rez/stomp, stab rez/stomp, etc)

Cons

• 30sec cooldown
• killable, cc-able, crit-able
• not nearly as useful outside of PVP

Comments
The new class mechanic definitely brings something helpful and unique to the Scrapper in PVP. I think that rezzing with the function gyro will also find it’s usefulness in Fractals and Raids.

How to improve the Scrappers new class mechanic for general PVE? I like the suggestion of making the Function Gyro useable for additional interactions to make it useful to players in PVE. Opening chests from a distance, talking to NPCs, even interacting with the bank, MF, and crafting stations from a distance would all be great QOL additions that would make the Scrapper mechanic awesome for PVE. Keep in mind that giving the Gyro the ability to loot would become an obsolete mechanic once players get the mastery that turns them into an auto-loot vacuum.

The Function Gyro cool down initially seems like it may be too high. When it comes to rezzing, the duration of the gyro may also need some tweaking. From the GW2 wiki: “Reviving a defeated target gives 1% of total health every 0.2 seconds, for a total of 5% per second. It takes 20 seconds to revive a defeated target. Revival ticks equally fast when in combat. However when reviving defeated targets, the amount of health given is halved. It takes 40 seconds to revive a defeated target when in combat.” I think that the F-Gyro’s duration should equal the amount of time required to revive a fully defeated ally without interruptions.

Once the F-Gyro successfully completes a rez/stomp, what happens to the F-Gyro? I’m worried that it will remain out for its entire 15sec duration, with no ability to destruct it. This would make the 30sec cool down even worse. This is just another reason why it is so necessary to modify the Gyro cool down to start immediately after summoning.

Utilities – Gyros

Pros

• gyros can be used for LOS advantages
• 12sec ground targeted whirl finisher has lots of potential
• 50% team wide damage reduction
• access to 6 new 1sec stuns and 2sec of superspeed (when traited)
• mobile reflect dome
• access to long term stealth (if I’m reading it correctly its 40sec of stealth if used for entire duration of gyro)
• 900 range AOE stealth stripping + 6s of reveal

Cons

• killable, cc-able, crit-able
• CDs start once Gyro is destroyed
• high CD on toolbelt skills
• initiate aggro in PVE

Comments
Well, where do I start? Ever since the first video popped up showing an Engineer walking around with drones hovering nearby, the GW2 community begged the devs not to give Engi more AI. We can’t know for sure how these requests were received, but we know that the outcome was still an elite spec with AI. The result was mobile turrets coined as Gyros.

The first and most obvious gripe was the gyros being given a health pool. They are also able to receive all forms of damage (direct, condition, crit, and cc). I don’t think anyone will argue that gyros can’t be introduced without some sort of counter-play in mind. But I think it’s been taken too far initially. The health pools of every gyro has been called into question. We’ll see where each gyro’s health pool falls during the next BWE, but I think it’s critical to pay careful attention to the effectiveness of the gyros due to their health pool. Getting the health numbers right is going to be paramount to starting to make gyros viable in any formats.

Aside form the health pool concerns, this forum has been filled with great suggestions to improve the viability of gyros.

Give gyros unique resistances.

Different resistances would be great, for example:

• bulwark uncrittable
• cleansing gyro immune to conditions
• whirl gyro to have perma stability
• heal gyro to regen himself too
• only the explosive damage gyro should be vulnerable to attacks, yet it needs different buffs, mainly CD lowered to 20 sec after spawn.

Give gyros unique destry effects. This would provide a trade-off for enemy players targeting and quickly destroying gyros and give players using them compensation for their gyro being destroyed.

The second most talked about criticism of gyros, has been their cool downs. In particular, the cool down lengths haven’t been the issue. The issue is that the CD for the utility skill doesn’t begin until the Gyro has been destructed. Either reduce the CDs or, more preferably, have CDs begin right after casting the utility.

Now for my personal biggest gripe. I think these gyros can find their place into different aspects of PVE, but probably not in their current rendition. In my opinion, the biggest requirement for gyro viability in PVE is to make gyros not initiate aggro on their own.

Obviously, the biggest benefactor of this would be the Sneak Gyro by making the gyro not aggro enemies as it tags along with the player(s) under it’s AOE stealth. Irenio’s comments seem to indicate that they see the Sneak Gyro being used to stack up a bit of stealth followed by destructing the gyro to grant superspeed to the stealthed group. While this solves the problem of the Sneak Gyro being there to give away the position of those stealthed, it also means that the optimal use case of the Stealth Gyro is to not use it for it’s full duration. It also forces our hands into taking a specific trait to make the Sneak Gyro work as the devs forsee it will be used. Why give the Sneak Gyro the 30 second duration to begin with? Don’t take that to mean that I’m in favor of reducing the Sneak Gyro duration. Yesterday, I thought of one place I see the Sneak Gyro, with it’s long duration, being really powerful, and that’s in Stronghold. Think of the usefulness in AOE stealthing a group of door breakers and/or archers, stacking stealth the whole while that they make their way towards the gates, destructing the gyro and giving them superspeed if you spot enemies. Also, keep in mind, the Sneak Gyro is the Engineer’s elite specialization’s elite skill.

It’s not all sky is falling when it comes to Gyros. Even though the devs decided to introduced a concept that Engineer players begged not go be given (AI, Turrets 2.0), these utilities are not destined to be forever worthless. Hopefully Irenio and any of the other devs working on Scrapper pay very close attention to gyro feedback during the BWE, as this is our one and only chance to try them out before HoT launches.

…

In summary, the Scrapper elite specialization offered enough to make me so hyped to try it out during the BWE and encouraged for Scrapper’s spot in the game going forward. Irenio has proved that he’s listening to the communities feedback, by already offerring a response to our initial reactions. I have faith that The Scrapper is going to give Engineer players another viable, fun, and powerful option.

TL;DR – Hammer and Traits = Scrapper Hype. Gyros = Underwhelming. Devs are listening, and there are plenty of ways to make Gyros something to be excited for.

Chaith.8256:

It’s just so surreal that we actually have a second set of Turret-status utilities.

Maybe they can be reworked from persistent and autonomous little plebs into gyro themed attacks or abilities.

Ikr? This is probably the single most baffling thing about the choice to give The Scrapper gyros in their current form.

Elite specializations were supposed to give classes a drastic change from the way that they’re currently played.

Players commented, complained, and critiqued turrets to no end for the last three years. Along the way, some suggested mobile turrets. Against popular opinion, the devs actually did listen, and here we are with gyros. The problem is, turret mobility was a suggestion for changing the current turrets. That’s where gyros belonged, as a re-work of the current turrets (made obvious by the fact everyone is referring to gyros as turrets 2.0).

I can’t help but feel like there was some laziness on the part of the ArenaNet dev teams. They took something they wanted to do (re-work turrets, investigate mobile turrets) and then combined it with the opportunity that presented itself in the form of Elite specializations. The result was successfully re-worked turrets, but at the expense of a new and unique set of utilities created for The Scrapper.

codesherwin.9346:

Chaith.8256:

It’s just so surreal that we actually have a second set of Turret-status utilities.

Maybe they can be reworked from persistent and autonomous little plebs into gyro themed attacks or abilities.

Ikr? This is probably the single most baffling thing about the choice to give The Scrapper gyros in their current form.

Elite specializations were supposed to give classes a drastic change from the way that they’re currently played.

Players commented, complained, and critiqued turrets to no end for the last three years. Along the way, some suggested mobile turrets. Against popular opinion, the devs actually did listen, and here we are with gyros. The problem is, turret mobility was a suggestion for changing the current turrets. That’s where gyros belonged, as a re-work of the current turrets (made obvious by the fact everyone is referring to gyros as turrets 2.0).

I can’t help but feel like there was some laziness on the part of the ArenaNet dev teams. They took something they wanted to do (re-work turrets, investigate mobile turrets) and then combined it with the opportunity that presented itself in the form of Elite specializations. The result was successfully re-worked turrets, but at the expense of a new and unique set of utilities created for The Scrapper.

Basically: no new mechanic, gyro= turrets 2.0, waiting for the BWE to be sure but the only good thing from this spec seems to be the hammer, the rest is “crapper”

Nieguen.6235:

Basically: no new mechanic, gyro= turrets 2.0, waiting for the BWE to be sure but the only good thing from this spec seems to be the hammer, the rest is “crapper”

I think that the traits offer up some great synergy with core Engi skills/traits as well. From the perspective of PVP, the new Scrapper traits may bring back the viability of a Celestial bunker Engineer build. Just my opinion, but that has me stoked.

codesherwin.9346:

Elite specializations were supposed to give classes a drastic change from the way that they’re currently played.

Where was this said?

Phineas Poe.3018:

codesherwin.9346:

Elite specializations were supposed to give classes a drastic change from the way that they’re currently played.

Where was this said?

That was said during the first reveal of HOT expansion I don’t remember what part, but you will have to watch HOT reveal.

Chaith.8256:

Indeed, going from Engineer to Scrapper will have extremely little learning curve, basically none, if you don’t take hammer.

Function Gyro needs to be pillar for the identity of the Scrapper, what really sets apart a Scrapper from an Engineer. This is the class mechanic we get from the first minor trait, a parallel to Reaper’s Shroud, Celestial Avatar, Overload Attunement, Continuum Split, Dragonhunter Virtues, Legendary Dragon Stance, Primal Bursts.

Other than the Engineer, only the Thief’s third dodge bar doesn’t really alter the playstyle significantly.

Currently, the Scrapper defining minor trait reads this: “You gain access to the Function Gyro, which can finish a foe or revive an ally at range.”

What I would suggest is:

Function Gyro: Gain access to up to 3 non-combative Function Gyros which encircle you. Periodically construct a function Gyro every 60 seconds. Command a Function Gyro to join the fray to finish foes or revive allies. (20s CD).

Reworking Impact Savant, the last Minor, as well:

Impact Savant: Deal 4% more damage, and reduce the duration of incoming stuns by 10% for each encircling Function Gyro.

What this accomplishes is creates a system of Gyro management that Scrappers in all game modes would be able to manipulate to their benefit. PvE Scrappers would enjoy great uptime of a 4-12% damage modifier. Non PvE Scrappers would get help from a Function Gyro every 20 seconds if they managed production well, and didn’t deplete resources.

Best of all, it’d be a constantly present theme that adds a bit more substance to the Scrapper’s core class mechanic, keeping it closer to the same feel players had when watching the Scrapper in the HoT trailer.

This is by far the more clever and creative idea I have read so far.

It makes the F-Gyros useful in all the game modes, it adds a real new mechanic to play with, it gives the Scrapper a truly distinctive element to be recognized as different from the Engie, and no doubt, sounds really cool.

@Chaith, I suggest you to make a thread with this idea alone, so the devs can see it in its own context, and hopefully take something from it to improve the Scrapper. Truly smart approuch, and much more constructive than most opinions in this thread (including mine).