Guild Wars 2

Jesus this is hilarious.
Firstly, Turret builds have never been strong outside games filled with freshlings.
Secondly, Yeah, maybe they were too strong vs beginners and deserved a nerf so people wouldnt feel completely exhausted and give up sPvP for struggeling vs turrets.

Another problem is turrets usability in higher-ups games, where they lack usability when they get outrotated, and now after the patch easily solo smacked by alot of builds.

(Quick note on thiefs + stealth;
Sure they can stealth alot, not permanently though, thiefs in sPvP dont go that far into shadow art traitline and leaps through black powder chew away at your innitiative, which means they sacrifice burst potantial to stealth. But yes, they will easily flee from most fights they wont win. Thiefs however are very, very active no matter build in sPvP)

My suggestion would be to make turrets scale with player stats.
Keep the condi dmg and crit vulnerability, just make them scale with your stats.
So if you go sentinel amulet, you get some tanky, though annoying turrets.
If you go damage, you will get some bursty but squishy turrets.
This would allow for more build diversity.

Imagine SD builds which usually uses a rifle turret almost only for the toolkit skill – now they can actually put it down to pump out some decent-good damage.

Imagine 2kit condi builds using the flame turret, now they can possibly skip Incindenary power for the toolkit active + they have a decent condi bursting turret.

Imagine decap engineers coming back bringing a relatively tanky thumper turret, now with a stun-break + an utterly annoying cripple + knockdown.

Imagine when mortar kit gets live, with a rocket turret for additional range havoc.

Chaith.8256:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Necrotize.2974:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Chaith.8256:

“Turrets weren’t an abomination, Celestial amulets are.”

“Simply a L2P issue.”

“Turrets were the purest form of Engineer.”

The feeling of loss will pass, and you will hopefully walk a mile in a non-turret Engineer’s shoes in ranked queue. My enjoyment in ranked queue has gone up 900% due to less presence of Turret Engineers. While I feel sympathy for those who’ve had their playstyle destroyed (RIP 100 nades), you cannot ever propose a good enough argument that would justify causing even 1 more flavor-of-the-month Turret Engineer in ranked queue.

I have run Cele rifle quite a bit but the class as I played it no longer exists. I have no desire to quit my playstle as my engi was my bunker toon. Engineers were designed to do exactly what I used mine for and need to be fixed.

So basically you’re saying that turrets were the only way to play engineer the way they were designed and without nigh-unkillable turrets our class is essentially useless? Only issue I had with the nerf was conditions affecting them as it doesn’t make sense, but crits make perfect sense and was a nerf that I think was dearly needed. Engineer has the potential to have more skills than any class(aside from ele) and the fact that almost everyone else was having trouble killing an engineer that sacrificed all those skills just for passive offense is a clear sign of trouble. Passive play should never hardcounter or surpass active play.

You can still play bunker engineer, you just have to sacrifice some offensive pressure now like everyone else.

Turrets were unaffected by the player’s stat choice so they would do the same amount of damage Even if the engineer ran PTV which was where the nerf should’ve focussed. Turret engineers sacrificed everything to run their build meaning we were naked with only a rifle vs any attacks coming out way.

Calling turret engineer a passive play style shows a significant lack of understanding on your and the community’s part. I actively attacked and defended (my life and my point) and to say otherwise is false.

Turrets damage affected by the engineer’s stats would’ve meant that to achieve their current damage output the player would need to gear zerker which would sacrifice survivability and if the engi wanted to run soldiers the damage output would be greatly reduced.

Again, turrets were never designed to take this damage and the entire trait line is ruined now. No changes to cooldowns, no cleanses added, no repair skill introduced, it simply destroys turrets to the cheers of players who run cheese builds they consider superior.

Turrets cannot be affected by player stats due to their status as constructs, or ‘gadgets’ (not the utility type.) It’s a technical limitation.

Everyone’s been saying this for years, but it can’t happen.

Also, I’m not alone in saying, I DO say otherwise when you claim you can play the meta turret build in an ‘active’ measure. You never have to leave the point, and your player input accounts for less than a third of your effectiveness.

That’s a lie.
You may not be able to alter the turret’s BASE STATS depending on the player’s stats, but you can always create a buff, which scales up turrets proportionally to your stat spread.

I have seen enough modders trick out engine limitations to know, how things can easily be bypassed. It’s certainly not impossible, but there may be technical limitations, which make this kind of solution put a severe strain on the server. This is something I don’t know, but stating, it’s impossible to have turrets scale with stats is a flat out lie.

I guess, when your system loads the turret, it will also have to load the engineer, which summoned them, which may be as far as 5000 or more range away from the turret. Yes, it will probably take quite a bit of fiddling around to get it to a point, where it doesn’t put a huge load on game performance, but it’s not impossible.

As for me, I just switched to playing turret ranger now. It’s far more fun than turret engi, because it’s more mobile.

Noha.3749:

Jesus this is hilarious.
Firstly, Turret builds have never been strong outside games filled with freshlings.
Secondly, Yeah, maybe they were too strong vs beginners and deserved a nerf so people wouldnt feel completely exhausted and give up sPvP for struggeling vs turrets.

Another problem is turrets usability in higher-ups games, where they lack usability when they get outrotated, and now after the patch easily solo smacked by alot of builds.

(Quick note on thiefs + stealth;
Sure they can stealth alot, not permanently though, thiefs in sPvP dont go that far into shadow art traitline and leaps through black powder chew away at your innitiative, which means they sacrifice burst potantial to stealth. But yes, they will easily flee from most fights they wont win. Thiefs however are very, very active no matter build in sPvP)

My suggestion would be to make turrets scale with player stats.
Keep the condi dmg and crit vulnerability, just make them scale with your stats.
So if you go sentinel amulet, you get some tanky, though annoying turrets.
If you go damage, you will get some bursty but squishy turrets.
This would allow for more build diversity.

Imagine SD builds which usually uses a rifle turret almost only for the toolkit skill – now they can actually put it down to pump out some decent-good damage.

Imagine 2kit condi builds using the flame turret, now they can possibly skip Incindenary power for the toolkit active + they have a decent condi bursting turret.

Imagine decap engineers coming back bringing a relatively tanky thumper turret, now with a stun-break + an utterly annoying cripple + knockdown.

Imagine when mortar kit gets live, with a rocket turret for additional range havoc.

100% agreed.

Let me clarify my perma stealth thief comments. I refer to a full troll stealth build that I myself tested (in unranked) and you are correct that it’s not used (often) in ranked. I’m in no way calling for a thief nerf as I love mine.

To your points on Turret engineers, you nailed it. I never understood why anyone directed hate at a build I killed easily. Although while I ran it, I was a nightmare.

I’ve suggested myself that players stats should determine damage output and taken by turrets. It would’ve balanced the entire build.

They already made the turrets scale with player condition damage, boon/condi duration and healing power (remember when healing turret caused that bugged regen? Fun times.)

As for engine limitations, well they couldn’t be crit or afflicted by conditions either but they changed that apparently.

The funny thing is, everyone acts like there was one overboard buff at the time when turrets became popular when the main buff was reducing their hitboxes and fixing the firerate. The firerate fix was a boon primarily for the net turret but in turn they then nerfed the duration. Heck, remember when rocket turret caused a 4 sec aoe burn? Or when rifle turret was bugged to have permanent double firerate when you overcharged it immediately. And Rocket turret had longer reach baseline. Its kind of odd seeing them turn from the prime joke build of the game (if you actually saw a turret engi you knew he was new and if anything you felt pity for him). Its like discovering that during the night the 5 mortar engi team has suddenly become meta and everyone want to slap a 5 sec duration on it because thieves are oneshotted by healing shot and shoutbows are reduced to a puddle by the might of caltrops. What happened? You would have thought they would be better earlier in the games lifetime when the Ai nature can be exploited to its maximum because people haven’t optimized their builds.

It feels really strange, like reading in the local newspaper that the blind, nice old lady next door has been revealed to be a bloodthirsty massmurderer.

miriforst.1290:

They already made the turrets scale with player condition damage, boon/condi duration and healing power (remember when healing turret caused that bugged regen? Fun times.)

As for engine limitations, well they couldn’t be crit or afflicted by conditions either but they changed that apparently.

The funny thing is, everyone acts like there was one overboard buff at the time when turrets became popular when the main buff was reducing their hitboxes and fixing the firerate. The firerate fix was a boon primarily for the net turret but in turn they then nerfed the duration. Heck, remember when rocket turret caused a 4 sec aoe burn? Or when rifle turret was bugged to have permanent double firerate when you overcharged it immediately. And Rocket turret had longer reach baseline. Its kind of odd seeing them turn from the prime joke build of the game (if you actually saw a turret engi you knew he was new and if anything you felt pity for him). Its like discovering that during the night the 5 mortar engi team has suddenly become meta and everyone want to slap a 5 sec duration on it because thieves are oneshotted by healing shot and shoutbows are reduced to a puddle by the might of caltrops. What happened? You would have thought they would be better earlier in the games lifetime when the Ai nature can be exploited to its maximum because people haven’t optimized their builds.

It feels really strange, like reading in the local newspaper that the blind, nice old lady next door has been revealed to be a bloodthirsty massmurderer.

Well the oldschool turreteers were.. something..
However the modern day turret(pre- nerf) builds probably crawled to its shimmering hall of fame due to the amount of sales on GW2 which boosted the new player population by quite a bit. Giving freshlings a way to dominate other freshlings, while better/more experienced players dominated about every freshling with the build. Which in result filled the forums with cryhard posts until the recent nerf. Even avrage-good players struggled against AI bunkers as if its some new raised star with alot of questionmarks to it, because it never really was common before they became the flavour of the month. Resulting in your posted scenario with the blind old woman being a massmurderer, you dont know how to react or how to go about. Whilst the resulting amount of increasing crazy old women made people uncomfortable to a degree they had to inject every old woman with tranqualizers. Now old women are no longer viable. They need to rework their teeth or something so they still scale with stats, the right way.

Noha.3749:

miriforst.1290:

They already made the turrets scale with player condition damage, boon/condi duration and healing power (remember when healing turret caused that bugged regen? Fun times.)

As for engine limitations, well they couldn’t be crit or afflicted by conditions either but they changed that apparently.

The funny thing is, everyone acts like there was one overboard buff at the time when turrets became popular when the main buff was reducing their hitboxes and fixing the firerate. The firerate fix was a boon primarily for the net turret but in turn they then nerfed the duration. Heck, remember when rocket turret caused a 4 sec aoe burn? Or when rifle turret was bugged to have permanent double firerate when you overcharged it immediately. And Rocket turret had longer reach baseline. Its kind of odd seeing them turn from the prime joke build of the game (if you actually saw a turret engi you knew he was new and if anything you felt pity for him). Its like discovering that during the night the 5 mortar engi team has suddenly become meta and everyone want to slap a 5 sec duration on it because thieves are oneshotted by healing shot and shoutbows are reduced to a puddle by the might of caltrops. What happened? You would have thought they would be better earlier in the games lifetime when the Ai nature can be exploited to its maximum because people haven’t optimized their builds.

It feels really strange, like reading in the local newspaper that the blind, nice old lady next door has been revealed to be a bloodthirsty massmurderer.

Well the oldschool turreteers were.. something..
However the modern day turret(pre- nerf) builds probably crawled to its shimmering hall of fame due to the amount of sales on GW2 which boosted the new player population by quite a bit. Giving freshlings a way to dominate other freshlings, while better/more experienced players dominated about every freshling with the build. Which in result filled the forums with cryhard posts until the recent nerf. Even avrage-good players struggled against AI bunkers as if its some new raised star with alot of questionmarks to it, because it never really was common before they became the flavour of the month. Resulting in your posted scenario with the blind old woman being a massmurderer, you dont know how to react or how to go about. Whilst the resulting amount of increasing crazy old women made people uncomfortable to a degree they had to inject every old woman with tranqualizers. Now old women are no longer viable. They need to rework their teeth or something so they still scale with stats, the right way.

That was quite the extrapolation of my metaphor ill give you that.

miriforst.1290:

Noha.3749:

miriforst.1290:

They already made the turrets scale with player condition damage, boon/condi duration and healing power (remember when healing turret caused that bugged regen? Fun times.)

As for engine limitations, well they couldn’t be crit or afflicted by conditions either but they changed that apparently.

The funny thing is, everyone acts like there was one overboard buff at the time when turrets became popular when the main buff was reducing their hitboxes and fixing the firerate. The firerate fix was a boon primarily for the net turret but in turn they then nerfed the duration. Heck, remember when rocket turret caused a 4 sec aoe burn? Or when rifle turret was bugged to have permanent double firerate when you overcharged it immediately. And Rocket turret had longer reach baseline. Its kind of odd seeing them turn from the prime joke build of the game (if you actually saw a turret engi you knew he was new and if anything you felt pity for him). Its like discovering that during the night the 5 mortar engi team has suddenly become meta and everyone want to slap a 5 sec duration on it because thieves are oneshotted by healing shot and shoutbows are reduced to a puddle by the might of caltrops. What happened? You would have thought they would be better earlier in the games lifetime when the Ai nature can be exploited to its maximum because people haven’t optimized their builds.

It feels really strange, like reading in the local newspaper that the blind, nice old lady next door has been revealed to be a bloodthirsty massmurderer.

Well the oldschool turreteers were.. something..
However the modern day turret(pre- nerf) builds probably crawled to its shimmering hall of fame due to the amount of sales on GW2 which boosted the new player population by quite a bit. Giving freshlings a way to dominate other freshlings, while better/more experienced players dominated about every freshling with the build. Which in result filled the forums with cryhard posts until the recent nerf. Even avrage-good players struggled against AI bunkers as if its some new raised star with alot of questionmarks to it, because it never really was common before they became the flavour of the month. Resulting in your posted scenario with the blind old woman being a massmurderer, you dont know how to react or how to go about. Whilst the resulting amount of increasing crazy old women made people uncomfortable to a degree they had to inject every old woman with tranqualizers. Now old women are no longer viable. They need to rework their teeth or something so they still scale with stats, the right way.

That was quite the extrapolation of my metaphor ill give you that.

Well to be fair i lost myself halfway through the reply.
I do however enjoy my mental picture of comparing turrets to crazy, old and bloodthirsty women though.
No offense to any crazy old bloodthirty woman being a murderer out there.

I guess my overall stance on this is that the nerf was justified, but in application maybe went a little overboard. Turrets absolutely should be affected by crits, condis I’m not so sure, but I can see the reasoning since before turrets were pretty much unkillable by anyone who wasn’t very high dps zerker. Condi builds couldn’t even scratch them and had to engage the engi on point, ignoring the turrets.

They should probably be adjusted to be a little more durable, but nowhere near where they were before. Turret camping on a point is the epitome of passive-play for engineers and the fact that such a build was so prevalent and successful for so long seems directly against Anets new balancing changes. All across the classes, passive defenses and offenses are being nerfed or even completely removed(I mentioned these above, but you can also just look at the new trait changes they announced for yourself). Turrets are very low risk for the engineer seeing as to get rid of them, you pretty much need to be as far away from the engi as he wants and in that time he still holds the point. Therefore they should be very low reward.

Since engineers lack weapon swapping, it’d be reasonable to assume that Anet expects most engineers to take at least one kit so that you’re doing more than just autoattacking the whole time. If that’s their vision for engineer, I seriously doubt they’d be fine with a build that sacrifices all utilities to passive offense/defense and then even sacrifices all your toolbelt skills while they’re active. You can argue against this point all you want, but that’s just my observation going off their most recent changes to shut down passive play and encourage more active combat.

^ In my turrety build used toolkit and HT, standard in many a engineer build, but i also used flameturret and thumper for tripple blasts and guaranteed launches (no random blind proc from a mesmers chaos armor negating your vital launch) with a good stealth (overcharging FT,placing thumper with overcharge and then detonating all creates a poor mans shadow refuge for rezzing). The two turret related traits i ran was fortified for a fast rotation of turrets meaning high reflect uptime against enemies with projectiles (bowwars, rangers etc.) and experimental turrets (to support allies with thumper should i risk leaving it out for a team fight).

The thing about this build, interestingly enough is that there was a lot of resource management and creativity involved. To kill a sturdier enemy comboing your one firefield with your wrench and blasts is now suddenly very important since i can’t just proc IP with my auto, and while i normally i pick my turrets up after the overcharge is over i had the option to go more aggressive and increase my dps enough to push for a kill at the cost of denying me my shields which in turn could have caused more dps if the enemy had any vital projectiles (like impale). And then we have the question of stealth. Should i risk a few ticks on the point to confuse and reposition (kitten stealthed prybars)? How many blasts are worth sacrificing on this stealth or heal?
And since damage didn’t come out of any fire air procs or super crit box i could be faced with situations where a sudden detonation of everything caught my enemy by surprise could be enough to finish him off, but could also mean that i put my shields, dps and blasts on a longer recharge. Your turrets where a resource which you had to manage, and there was more than one or two ways to use them. Ironically i felt more connected to turrets as a resource than i have when i play multikit builds, using your stunbreak wasn’t just a case of having more use of it later but it could also reduce your effectiveness in other ways (lose a blast and possibly a turret). And thats not the end of it. The funny thing is that the one turret i thought overpreformed, that being the rocket turret was probably less hurt by this nerf than the utilitarian thumper and flameturret.

And yes i was bunkerish, ill admit. Very much so. I enjoy helping allies and standing my ground. Im the guy who actually use healing power gear for fun. Because the game is bashing me over my head saying “No healers allowed!” i cant resist. And pushing through a sea of players, stealthing both you and your ally while launching the attackers everywhere and pushing of that impossible rez when your friend is telling you to run is more rewarding to me than any split second zerk kill or 15 stacks of confusion on a ele out of water is ever going to be.

But that does not mean this is the only build i play (or rather played), i do enjoy playing quite polar builds, from static discharge to condibomber and even to strange countries like zerk elixir commando, brave wrenching barbarian amulet gadget user, minespiker, medkit medic and a whole lot of nonsense. Hell i even teamed up with a leg specialist warrior for a aoe perma immobilizing mortar team just for fun back in the days, (and yes venoms work on turrets, we have tried that as well).

As I said, the nerf while needed, is a bandaid fix. Turrets should have been changed individually to reflect their usage. Rifle turret and rocket turret are the biggest offenders when it comes to the passive turret engineers. They’re usually placed way off point, sometimes even in unreachable places(with the help of Deployed Turrets) and even if someone could easily reach them, it took way too long to kill them. These turrets should have been hit the hardest by the nerf, leaving the melee range ones a little tankier(although not as much as they were). IMO, Thumper Turret in addition to having the highest health, should be the tankiest of them due to its cd in relation to the others and the fact that to be effective is must be placed on point. Flame Turret should be a little behind Thumper in tankiness because of its overcharge effect preventing some damage and its higher range, allowing it to be placed slightly off point.

Turret builds can be played actively(not so much if you’re using all turrets, especially if you’re using Rifle and Rocket Turret off point), but the issue is that it became very popular to not play actively and it was relatively rewarding. Why take Flame Turret over Rifle/Rocket when you can leave the latter two 1500 units off the point and almost guarantee they won’t be dying anytime soon while applying constant pressure? Why swap in a kit or stunbreak when you’re tanky enough to eat attacks and can just drop supply crate when you’re in danger and pretty much guarantee recovery?

naphack.9346:

That’s a lie.

You don’t have to believe me, but there’s also a catch in the wording. I am telling you it’s a technical limitation, not an impossibility. What’s more likely is that the solution involves enough backtracking and would consume enough resources for it to not be considered “worth”.

I am not out to deceive anyone, it’s just that scaling turrets have been the completely logical solution since they were a flicker in ArenaNet’s eye. And everything is illogical about Turrets.

sorrychief.2563:

My healing turret gets blown up before I can overcharge and pick it up sometimes.

10/10

I have yet to encounter this. I have been PvPing a lot since the patch, and I don’t use my healing turret any differently than I ever have. I even go ahead and use it right in the middle of AOE fields and I still am able to detonate it in it’s water field every single time.

Necrotize.2974:

I guess my overall stance on this is that the nerf was justified, but in application maybe went a little overboard. Turrets absolutely should be affected by crits, condis I’m not so sure, but I can see the reasoning since before turrets were pretty much unkillable by anyone who wasn’t very high dps zerker. Condi builds couldn’t even scratch them and had to engage the engi on point, ignoring the turrets.

They should probably be adjusted to be a little more durable, but nowhere near where they were before. Turret camping on a point is the epitome of passive-play for engineers and the fact that such a build was so prevalent and successful for so long seems directly against Anets new balancing changes. All across the classes, passive defenses and offenses are being nerfed or even completely removed(I mentioned these above, but you can also just look at the new trait changes they announced for yourself). Turrets are very low risk for the engineer seeing as to get rid of them, you pretty much need to be as far away from the engi as he wants and in that time he still holds the point. Therefore they should be very low reward.

Since engineers lack weapon swapping, it’d be reasonable to assume that Anet expects most engineers to take at least one kit so that you’re doing more than just autoattacking the whole time. If that’s their vision for engineer, I seriously doubt they’d be fine with a build that sacrifices all utilities to passive offense/defense and then even sacrifices all your toolbelt skills while they’re active. You can argue against this point all you want, but that’s just my observation going off their most recent changes to shut down passive play and encourage more active combat.

That was the best response I have read in this whole debate. +1 for you sir.

Necrotize.2974:

I guess my overall stance on this is that the nerf was justified, but in application maybe went a little overboard. Turrets absolutely should be affected by crits, condis I’m not so sure, but I can see the reasoning since before turrets were pretty much unkillable by anyone who wasn’t very high dps zerker. Condi builds couldn’t even scratch them and had to engage the engi on point, ignoring the turrets.

They should probably be adjusted to be a little more durable, but nowhere near where they were before. Turret camping on a point is the epitome of passive-play for engineers and the fact that such a build was so prevalent and successful for so long seems directly against Anets new balancing changes. All across the classes, passive defenses and offenses are being nerfed or even completely removed(I mentioned these above, but you can also just look at the new trait changes they announced for yourself). Turrets are very low risk for the engineer seeing as to get rid of them, you pretty much need to be as far away from the engi as he wants and in that time he still holds the point. Therefore they should be very low reward.

Since engineers lack weapon swapping, it’d be reasonable to assume that Anet expects most engineers to take at least one kit so that you’re doing more than just autoattacking the whole time. If that’s their vision for engineer, I seriously doubt they’d be fine with a build that sacrifices all utilities to passive offense/defense and then even sacrifices all your toolbelt skills while they’re active. You can argue against this point all you want, but that’s just my observation going off their most recent changes to shut down passive play and encourage more active combat.

That’s what they’re designed to do. In the actual description of the class it clearly states that turrets hold an area. The community dislikes turrets, got it. They destroyed the play style without adding anything to compensate for the now worthless point holding turrets and didn’t adjust traits or cooldowns.

Imagine if warriors lost banners. They’re not essential they’re passive once placed, and everyone loves them. The only reason turrets got hate is they were effective against cookie cutter cheese builds.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Necrotize.2974:

I guess my overall stance on this is that the nerf was justified, but in application maybe went a little overboard. Turrets absolutely should be affected by crits, condis I’m not so sure, but I can see the reasoning since before turrets were pretty much unkillable by anyone who wasn’t very high dps zerker. Condi builds couldn’t even scratch them and had to engage the engi on point, ignoring the turrets.

They should probably be adjusted to be a little more durable, but nowhere near where they were before. Turret camping on a point is the epitome of passive-play for engineers and the fact that such a build was so prevalent and successful for so long seems directly against Anets new balancing changes. All across the classes, passive defenses and offenses are being nerfed or even completely removed(I mentioned these above, but you can also just look at the new trait changes they announced for yourself). Turrets are very low risk for the engineer seeing as to get rid of them, you pretty much need to be as far away from the engi as he wants and in that time he still holds the point. Therefore they should be very low reward.

Since engineers lack weapon swapping, it’d be reasonable to assume that Anet expects most engineers to take at least one kit so that you’re doing more than just autoattacking the whole time. If that’s their vision for engineer, I seriously doubt they’d be fine with a build that sacrifices all utilities to passive offense/defense and then even sacrifices all your toolbelt skills while they’re active. You can argue against this point all you want, but that’s just my observation going off their most recent changes to shut down passive play and encourage more active combat.

That’s what they’re designed to do. In the actual description of the class it clearly states that turrets hold an area. The community dislikes turrets, got it. They destroyed the play style without adding anything to compensate for the now worthless point holding turrets and didn’t adjust traits or cooldowns.

Imagine if warriors lost banners. They’re not essential they’re passive once placed, and everyone loves them. The only reason turrets got hate is they were effective against cookie cutter cheese builds.

I already stated that I believe it was a bandaid fix that could have been more finely tuned, but it was still necessary. So unless you plan on bringing new evidence as to why this change was not needed at all or have a new point to make, I hope you’ll refrain from bringing this up yet again.

You can get pedantic about class descriptions all you want, the point is Anet is clearly against passive play commonly associated with triple turret bunker engis, which by the way was a very “cookie cutter cheese build”(in my opinion), heck you could even find a detailed outline on Meta Battle and countless people claimed it was the perfect build for new players who want to compete in Ranked/Unranked without spending a lot of time learning the class mechanics. Sure banners are passive, but honestly I can’t remember the last time I saw a warrior running anything more than Battle Standard, and even that is uncommon in uncoordinated teams. Its also quite a false comparison if you ask me, seeing as banners don’t allow you to hold a point any better than normal, don’t attack people and generally have a minimal impact on PvP.

Face it, turrets got hate because they WERE the passive “cookie cutter cheese build” as you put it. When banners start shooting down people at 1500 range and bunker banner warriors become a thing, I’m sure they’ll get nerfed too. But until then, drawing flimsy comparisons between very different skills from different classes won’t prove your point or bring back the old turrets.

Necrotize.2974:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Necrotize.2974:

I guess my overall stance on this is that the nerf was justified, but in application maybe went a little overboard. Turrets absolutely should be affected by crits, condis I’m not so sure, but I can see the reasoning since before turrets were pretty much unkillable by anyone who wasn’t very high dps zerker. Condi builds couldn’t even scratch them and had to engage the engi on point, ignoring the turrets.

They should probably be adjusted to be a little more durable, but nowhere near where they were before. Turret camping on a point is the epitome of passive-play for engineers and the fact that such a build was so prevalent and successful for so long seems directly against Anets new balancing changes. All across the classes, passive defenses and offenses are being nerfed or even completely removed(I mentioned these above, but you can also just look at the new trait changes they announced for yourself). Turrets are very low risk for the engineer seeing as to get rid of them, you pretty much need to be as far away from the engi as he wants and in that time he still holds the point. Therefore they should be very low reward.

Since engineers lack weapon swapping, it’d be reasonable to assume that Anet expects most engineers to take at least one kit so that you’re doing more than just autoattacking the whole time. If that’s their vision for engineer, I seriously doubt they’d be fine with a build that sacrifices all utilities to passive offense/defense and then even sacrifices all your toolbelt skills while they’re active. You can argue against this point all you want, but that’s just my observation going off their most recent changes to shut down passive play and encourage more active combat.

That’s what they’re designed to do. In the actual description of the class it clearly states that turrets hold an area. The community dislikes turrets, got it. They destroyed the play style without adding anything to compensate for the now worthless point holding turrets and didn’t adjust traits or cooldowns.

Imagine if warriors lost banners. They’re not essential they’re passive once placed, and everyone loves them. The only reason turrets got hate is they were effective against cookie cutter cheese builds.

I already stated that I believe it was a bandaid fix that could have been more finely tuned, but it was still necessary. So unless you plan on bringing new evidence as to why this change was not needed at all or have a new point to make, I hope you’ll refrain from bringing this up yet again.

You can get pedantic about class descriptions all you want, the point is Anet is clearly against passive play commonly associated with triple turret bunker engis, which by the way was a very “cookie cutter cheese build”(in my opinion), heck you could even find a detailed outline on Meta Battle and countless people claimed it was the perfect build for new players who want to compete in Ranked/Unranked without spending a lot of time learning the class mechanics. Sure banners are passive, but honestly I can’t remember the last time I saw a warrior running anything more than Battle Standard, and even that is uncommon in uncoordinated teams. Its also quite a false comparison if you ask me, seeing as banners don’t allow you to hold a point any better than normal, don’t attack people and generally have a minimal impact on PvP.

Face it, turrets got hate because they WERE the passive “cookie cutter cheese build” as you put it. When banners start shooting down people at 1500 range and bunker banner warriors become a thing, I’m sure they’ll get nerfed too. But until then, drawing flimsy comparisons between very different skills from different classes won’t prove your point or bring back the old turrets.

As this is my post and I ran turrets which you clearly did not I’ll ask you to move on. Turrets’ purpose is clearly defined in the class description which is all the evidence I require to disprove any claims that they weren’t “working as intended”.

Turrets
Engineers can also deploy turrets, immobile devices that help defend and control an area. For example, engineers can plant thumper turrets to cause damage to all foes in the area, or a healing turret that regenerates the health of nearby allies. Engineers can pack up and move turrets at will, and only one of each type can exist at a time.

If you care to check my sources, here you go.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/engineer/

The fact that turrets needed an adjustment in damage or survivability wasn’t disputed, but they were always meant to work as they did.

Is passive play the new buzzword? Should we gut Banners next? Or Phantasms, since they got tons of new trait support? Or even conditions, since you don’t have to do anything after you apply them, you can sit back and watch them tick. I don’t see how any of the above is more active.

A competitive game should focus on play and counterplay, not active and passive gamestyle.

Turrets could do damage even when the Engineer built full tank. That, (and the fact they were viable enough in the first place to cause this), were the problems. Any skill, no matter how active or passive, would be problematic, if, when traited, could deal the same amounts of damage without requiring any gear dedication. You are complaining that the engineer’s own actions didn’t matter after the turrets were deployed. How does the fix change that? How does making the turrets be made out of paper makes engineers more active in the fight?

The answer is it doesn’t. It’s just a more delicate way to basically delete the skills from game. And it sets a bad example; if you can’t balance it, remove it.

If you want more active turret engineers, then give them more options. They can’t have a utility bar, a toolbelt, or a second weapon. This didn’t change. At the very least, make the respective toolbelt skill usable while the turret is deployed, by putting the detonation button to the turret skill, and it can used when the overcharge skill is on cooldown.

RabbitUp.8294:

Is passive play the new buzzword? Should we gut Banners next? Or Phantasms, since they got tons of new trait support? Or even conditions, since you don’t have to do anything after you apply them, you can sit back and watch them tick. I don’t see how any of the above is more active.

A competitive game should focus on play and counterplay, not active and passive gamestyle.

Turrets could do damage even when the Engineer built full tank. That, (and the fact they were viable enough in the first place to cause this), were the problems. You are complaining that the engineer’s own actions didn’t matter after the turrets were deployed. How does the fix change that? How does making the turrets be made out of paper makes engineers more active in the fight?

The answer is it doesn’t. It’s just a more delicate way to basically delete the skills from game. And it sets a bad example; if you can’t balance it, remove it.

If you want more active turret engineers, then give them more options. They can’t have a utility bar, a toolbelt, or a second weapon. This didn’t change. At the very least, make the respective toolbelt skill usable while the turret is deployed, by putting the detonation button to the turret skill, and it can used when the overcharge skill is on cooldown.

Logic on the forums. +1000 internets

Well put, it’s not a matter of active or passive, it’s that turrets were too effective in the eyes of “the community” who saw turrets as cheese and an unskilled build.

I saw turrets as defense, which in combat and point capture pvp modes, is as valuable as attack. The class was designed to have turrets be the bunker line of the profession and did the job too well. It didn’t need destroying it needed balancing.

sorrychief.2563:

My healing turret gets blown up before I can overcharge and pick it up sometimes.

10/10

Kind of the point of the nerf … having to think about how turrets are used instead of just putting the down where ever 4TW.

Frankly, turrets allowed too many damage sources. Drawbacks aside, it was too much up front with little recourse than to overwhelm them with numbers.

Apologies in advance for the long post, I try to say everything I can on the subject so there’s no need to constantly repost.

Who said I never ran turrets? I’ve played my fair share of engineer, usually P/S, but I’ve played around with 3-kit condi, celestial rifle, static discharge burst, and yes, even turrets. Turret engi is by far the least interactive playstyle. Place Rifle+Rocket as far off point as possible, on a high platform overlooking the point, especially if it isn’t in LoS from several angles behind it. Drop thumper turret mid point to aid in decaps/recapping. Since turrets deal a constant damage, way more stat points can be invested into toughness and vitality. There’s really not much to it. I grew bored of turrets after 10-15 matches because compared to using several kits or a high burst build, it was just slow.

I feel like I’m just repeating myself at this point, but like I said, you can cite the class description all you want, but clearly Anet had no intentions of people being triple turret bunkers and having such high success, otherwise no change would’ve been made. That bit you cited also says engineers can pack up turrets and move at anytime, which is a bit strange seeing as the general playstyle was to leave your turrets in a very inaccessible spot overlooking the point and never pick them up again. Heck, people even discovered you could placed turrets slightly in the air to reduce their hitbox so that they had even less reason to pick them up and replace.

@RabbitUp

Active and passive are not just random buzzwords. It compares types of skills and effects. For example, logically, a heal like Consume Conditions with its high risk high reward scenario should be more effective than the almost entirely passive(in that you slot it then forgot it) Healing Signet, which is reflected in their upcoming changes that reduce Healing Signet’s effectiveness and makes it better to activate. Again, those comparisons you used are hardly fair. Phantasms deal damage passively in that the mesmer can’t control them apart from summoning them. In this aspect they are like turrets. However, phantasms also die relatively easily and are usually on point, whereas turrets did not die quickly and are usually placed very out of reach from the point.

Just a recap, the nerf to turrets was necessary in my opinion, hopefully they’ll add more depth to turrets in the coming weeks. Anet’s recent changes show they encourage smart plays that require coordination on the player’s part and adapting to your opponent, not just setting up base camp and waiting for the match to end. Turrets while designed to hold a point, were far to effective without ever even needing to be near the point or in harms way, this is why they required a nerf.

This conversation doesn’t really seem to be going anywhere, so unless that changes, I probably won’t be posting again since I feel I’ve already made my case and said all that needs to be said(sometimes numerous times). I really hope I’m not coming off as rude or disrespectful because that was not my intention at all, I just wanted to express my opinion on this topic as it affects more than just the people that played as turret engineers frequently.

Necrotize.2974:

Apologies in advance for the long post, I try to say everything I can on the subject so there’s no need to constantly repost.

Who said I never ran turrets? I’ve played my fair share of engineer, usually P/S, but I’ve played around with 3-kit condi, celestial rifle, static discharge burst, and yes, even turrets. Turret engi is by far the least interactive playstyle. Place Rifle+Rocket as far off point as possible, on a high platform overlooking the point, especially if it isn’t in LoS from several angles behind it. Drop thumper turret mid point to aid in decaps/recapping. Since turrets deal a constant damage, way more stat points can be invested into toughness and vitality. There’s really not much to it. I grew bored of turrets after 10-15 matches because compared to using several kits or a high burst build, it was just slow.

I feel like I’m just repeating myself at this point, but like I said, you can cite the class description all you want, but clearly Anet had no intentions of people being triple turret bunkers and having such high success, otherwise no change would’ve been made. That bit you cited also says engineers can pack up turrets and move at anytime, which is a bit strange seeing as the general playstyle was to leave your turrets in a very inaccessible spot overlooking the point and never pick them up again. Heck, people even discovered you could placed turrets slightly in the air to reduce their hitbox so that they had even less reason to pick them up and replace.

@RabbitUp

Active and passive are not just random buzzwords. It compares types of skills and effects. For example, logically, a heal like Consume Conditions with its high risk high reward scenario should be more effective than the almost entirely passive(in that you slot it then forgot it) Healing Signet, which is reflected in their upcoming changes that reduce Healing Signet’s effectiveness and makes it better to activate. Again, those comparisons you used are hardly fair. Phantasms deal damage passively in that the mesmer can’t control them apart from summoning them. In this aspect they are like turrets. However, phantasms also die relatively easily and are usually on point, whereas turrets did not die quickly and are usually placed very out of reach from the point.

Just a recap, the nerf to turrets was necessary in my opinion, hopefully they’ll add more depth to turrets in the coming weeks. Anet’s recent changes show they encourage smart plays that require coordination on the player’s part and adapting to your opponent, not just setting up base camp and waiting for the match to end. Turrets while designed to hold a point, were far to effective without ever even needing to be near the point or in harms way, this is why they required a nerf.

This conversation doesn’t really seem to be going anywhere, so unless that changes, I probably won’t be posting again since I feel I’ve already made my case and said all that needs to be said(sometimes numerous times). I really hope I’m not coming off as rude or disrespectful because that was not my intention at all, I just wanted to express my opinion on this topic as it affects more than just the people that played as turret engineers frequently.

The only part that came off as rude was telling me to be silent on my own thread.

I have little hope that these changes will be reverted or adjusted as Anet are working on living story season 3 aka HoT. The turrets needed the following adjustments to be balanced but that won’t happen now I fear.

1. Turrets can only exist while within a 1500 range of the engineer. If the engi leaves the radius, the turret explodes.

2. Turret power scale to the engineer’s stats.
(current power would be full zerk but just as glassy as they are now, sans conditions) Full soldiers would be as tough as ever but hit half as hard.

3. Turret CDs are cut in half to promote redeployment style.

Obtena.7952:

sorrychief.2563:

My healing turret gets blown up before I can overcharge and pick it up sometimes.

10/10

Kind of the point of the nerf … having to think about how turrets are used instead of just putting the down where ever 4TW.

Frankly, turrets allowed too many damage sources. Drawbacks aside, it was too much up front with little recourse than to overwhelm them with numbers.

I agree with this actually. It was expected that turrets would be nerfed, but a reduction in damage was all that called for.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Obtena.7952:

sorrychief.2563:

My healing turret gets blown up before I can overcharge and pick it up sometimes.

10/10

Kind of the point of the nerf … having to think about how turrets are used instead of just putting the down where ever 4TW.

Frankly, turrets allowed too many damage sources. Drawbacks aside, it was too much up front with little recourse than to overwhelm them with numbers.

I agree with this actually. It was expected that turrets would be nerfed, but a reduction in damage was all that called for.

No. It is perfectly reasonable to allow crits and condition damage to effect turets. Players invest in those stats through gear, trait points, sigil, and runes. Thus, nothing justifies the entire value of that stat investment.

Damage reduction would have done nothing to fix the issue with turret ignoring those reasonable stat investments from other players. That is a different issue from turret damage output. Certainly they should have adjusted the turrets armor and hit points to compensate to an extent. But to me, it is unreasonable to claim that a damage reduction was al that was needed, when turrets ignored other players stat investments entirely.

coglin.1867:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Obtena.7952:

sorrychief.2563:

My healing turret gets blown up before I can overcharge and pick it up sometimes.

10/10

Kind of the point of the nerf … having to think about how turrets are used instead of just putting the down where ever 4TW.

Frankly, turrets allowed too many damage sources. Drawbacks aside, it was too much up front with little recourse than to overwhelm them with numbers.

I agree with this actually. It was expected that turrets would be nerfed, but a reduction in damage was all that called for.

No. It is perfectly reasonable to allow crits and condition damage to effect turets. Players invest in those stats through gear, trait points, sigil, and runes. Thus, nothing justifies the entire value of that stat investment.

Damage reduction would have done nothing to fix the issue with turret ignoring those reasonable stat investments from other players. That is a different issue from turret damage output. Certainly they should have adjusted the turrets armor and hit points to compensate to an extent. But to me, it is unreasonable to claim that a damage reduction was al that was needed, when turrets ignored other players stat investments entirely.

The turrets are constructs not living entities and are incapable of movement to avoid damage. Conditions were never useless against turret Engineers they simply needed to be applied to the player not the construct.

Running turrets meant the only condi clear an engineer had was the healing turret, so a condi bomb did down the engineer and upon his/her death, the turrets.

As for power builds, LB rangers and power necros ate turret engineers for lunch if they landed a burst. I think the general perception of turreteers was that they didn’t do anything in combat, the fact was I dodged and lept around actively trying not to die, the same as any other class I play defensively.

Aidenwolf.5964:

coglin.1867:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Obtena.7952:

sorrychief.2563:

My healing turret gets blown up before I can overcharge and pick it up sometimes.

10/10

Kind of the point of the nerf … having to think about how turrets are used instead of just putting the down where ever 4TW.

Frankly, turrets allowed too many damage sources. Drawbacks aside, it was too much up front with little recourse than to overwhelm them with numbers.

I agree with this actually. It was expected that turrets would be nerfed, but a reduction in damage was all that called for.

No. It is perfectly reasonable to allow crits and condition damage to effect turets. Players invest in those stats through gear, trait points, sigil, and runes. Thus, nothing justifies the entire value of that stat investment.

Damage reduction would have done nothing to fix the issue with turret ignoring those reasonable stat investments from other players. That is a different issue from turret damage output. Certainly they should have adjusted the turrets armor and hit points to compensate to an extent. But to me, it is unreasonable to claim that a damage reduction was al that was needed, when turrets ignored other players stat investments entirely.

The turrets are constructs not living entities and are incapable of movement to avoid damage. Conditions were never useless against turret Engineers they simply needed to be applied to the player not the construct.

Running turrets meant the only condi clear an engineer had was the healing turret, so a condi bomb did down the engineer and upon his/her death, the turrets.

As for power builds, LB rangers and power necros ate turret engineers for lunch if they landed a burst. I think the general perception of turreteers was that they didn’t do anything in combat, the fact was I dodged and lept around actively trying not to die, the same as any other class I play defensively.

Except that every other build in the game that has picked defensive stats gave up on its option to kill foes or support in killing them with damage or conditions. The only support defensive builds usually can offer are cc-bombs or direct condi clear / healing / buffing.
The turreteer on the other hand was able to take the most defensive stats, and still put out enough dps to overload squishy and medium armored targets. Only specs going full out bunker could stand a chance in the constant snare from out-of-reach turrets, and then still had to face the supply-crate to apply constant burning and potential cc-bombs constantly, which gave the engineer way too much power.

Sure, you can argue that condis and cc are the engineers weak spot, and when it comes to pure 1v1’s it’s actually quite easily to dismantle any fortified point. But sPvP is not a 1v1 vacuum. You can face up to 5 players, and if all roll turreteer, you face 2-3 engineers on 2 points during the whole match, which is when the aoe-cleanse of HT really pays off since it’s not 1 engi clearing 2 condis every 20 seconds, but 2-3 engis, clearing 2 condis every 10-6 seconds. And this is virtually the last weakness of this build that just got nullified by stacking this build.
And while it is true that 1 ele staff zerker easily can clear a undefined number of turrets at once on a point, in such a compilation you face up to 5 supply-crates, easily covering any turret-downtime that may occur.
So yes, the intention of having a balanced PvP environment got defeated by this build, which showed that the original design-plan for engi-turrets is flawed in its core, hence a-net made them completely unviable to revisit the topic later or never again, therefore it doesn’t matter how often you cite or repost the official concept of turrets, since it’s outdated and a-net apparently already has given up on it.

Also, 5 turret engi comps maybe not your allday enemy in SpvP to that time, but 1 or 2 turret engis were already big enough of an issue since one survives long enough to let help arrive, and if there are builds on their team that come along with aoe-condi-cleanse (think shoutbow / cele staff ele / a.s.o.), you face the same scenario of the nearly invincible, dps heavy tank that has no weak-spots. Not even cc will help since a shotbow easily holds the point, while those who try to stunlock and burst the engi pump their dps into the most tanky target on the point, making themselves just easy targets for peeling from the defenders themselves.

I guess I leave this discussion here since we argue about history and already executed design-changes, hence I don’t think it’s constructive anymore. If you want turrets back in the game, you rather should come up with reasonable design changes to the core role of turrets, since the originally intended design is something that is most likely not wanted by the developers in their game anymore.

Turrets are now brought into line with other summons.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Turrets are now brought into line with other summons.

They shouldn’t be into line with other summons to begin with, if they also have to make up for the lack of a second weapon (and seeing as turret toolbelts aren’t usable while turrets are deployed, that weight has mostly to be shouldered by the turret themselves).
Anyway, i didn’t see a turret move yet. And neither i’ve seen all the other summons being immobile. So, no, saying they’re into line is blatantly false. If anything, they’re far weaker than any other summon, since they haven’t rebalanced them at all after adding some forms of damage they weren’t designed to have by design.

Turrets are far better and able to be traited for than any other summon. They are balanced around the fact that you only have 1 set. Nobody is forcing you to take 5 turret skills, same as nobody forces a ranger to use 5 spirit skills. Btw, spirits give the Ranger a 35% CHANCE to do some extra damage or get swiftness… Not like a turret that shoots missiles, bullets, nets or flames. Yeah, check out the Water spirit heal and compare to HT.

Turrets needed to be more vulnerable from the start, now, they are in line in that respect.

If you don’t think turrets are stronger than any other summon, organise a MM necro to summon his minions in range of your turrets, let the minions attack them. Try the same with a ranger with spirits, just get him to place them within range. Illusions too. I bet not one turret goes down.

Health of Turrets; Thumper Turret: 11950, Flame Turret: 8960, Rifle/Net/Rocket Turret: 7470, Healing Turret: 5980.

Then you get the traits; Turrets explode when killed. When your turrets explode, they push back foes. Reduces damage dealt to turrets. Turrets are self-repairing. Turrets deal more damage and have a longer attack range. Your turrets are surrounded by a reflective shield when created. Turrets apply boons to allies around them. Turret skills use ground targeting.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Turrets needed to be more vulnerable from the start, now, they are in line in that respect.

So what you’re saying is that they are now just as useless as Spirit Ranger and MM Necro and that’s a good thing.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Turrets are far better and able to be traited for than any other summon. They are balanced around the fact that you only have 1 set. Nobody is forcing you to take 5 turret skills, same as nobody forces a ranger to use 5 spirit skills. Btw, spirits give the Ranger a 35% CHANCE to do some extra damage or get swiftness… Not like a turret that shoots missiles, bullets, nets or flames. Yeah, check out the Water spirit heal and compare to HT.

And why do you think turrets have mostly offensive skills in turrets, be it via autoattacks or overcharges?
Because an engineer, by default, lacks them. And something must supply them, be it a kit or something else.
But while a kit, gadget or elixir can’t die, turrets can. And do it rather quickly.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Turrets needed to be more vulnerable from the start, now, they are in line in that respect.

They needed to be vulnerable to conditions and criticals, that i agree with; but they also had to be rebalanced over the added vulnerability.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

If you don’t think turrets are stronger than any other summon, organise a MM necro to summon his minions in range of your turrets, let the minions attack them. Try the same with a ranger with spirits, just get him to place them within range. Illusions too. I bet not one turret goes down.

Health of Turrets; Thumper Turret: 11950, Flame Turret: 8960, Rifle/Net/Rocket Turret: 7470, Healing Turret: 5980.

First of all, why should an opponent even stay inside the range of my turrets? Being immobile is a part of their weakness. If they can destroy them from a distance, it’s my loss either way.
And in a fight people don’t use just their summons. Any offensive power turrets may have is done for when they’re dead. And when players attack, they die rather quickly (especially when, as said above, they can be outranged without retaliation).
Sure, turrets may even win versus other summons. But no one will make’em fight like that in actual combat.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Then you get the traits; Turrets explode when killed. When your turrets explode, they push back foes. Reduces damage dealt to turrets. Turrets are self-repairing. Turrets deal more damage and have a longer attack range. Your turrets are surrounded by a reflective shield when created. Turrets apply boons to allies around them. Turret skills use ground targeting.

There are a lot of turret-related traits and their cumulative effects are sensible. Yeah, that’s the point of traits, i would say. And they’re even removing or merging a good amount of them.
Unlike now, it will be possible to take some turrets and trait and use something else as well.
But turrets as are now will be detrimental either way, so there’s no reason to do that. People would rather trait something else and take it instead.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Turrets are now brought into line with other summons.

Nope.
I can boost my pet with might, fury, protection and regeneration, I can’t do that with turrets.
My pet benefits from a thief popping venom share or a guardian using the active of VoJ. Turrets? Nope.
My pet can be healed by blast finishers in water fields during heavy engagements, Turrets just go poof and blast the water field themselves after they are gone.
Fact is, turrets don’t benefit from a lot of the goodies, other minions can benefit from. Conditions and critical damage, all the combat elements, are balanced towards the receiving side having burst heals and boons to mitigate the effects. So how does making turrets vulnerable to all the bad things, while not giving them access to the goodies, all the other summons take for granted, bring them back in line with all the other summons?
Turret used to be an entirely different thing from normal minions. While all the minions had their capitalist economy, where outstanding individuals receive boons, while not so well-doing minions had problems with all kinds of conditions, the turrets lived happily in their socialist country, where every turret was equal and nobody received any boons or had to take any conditions.
Now, as their country collapsed, they are second-class minions, rotting in the slums, plagued by conditions with no chance of being promoted or getting a job, while the rich minions drive by with their expensive boon cars and look away in disgust.

Do you call that bringing them in line? Is that a fair system? They used to be equal in their own little country, which used to be a zero-sum game. Now, they are put into the ghetto, with a metal cog reading “TURRET” on their chest and people are forbidden from giving work to turrets, trading with turrets or giving boons to turrets.
Is that fair treatment for a skill class, just because they are “different”? Does text color determine the worth of a virtual being?

naphack.9346:

My pet benefits from a thief popping venom share or a guardian using the active of VoJ. Turrets? Nope.

In fact turrets profit from venoms.

I agree the changes were needed. The issue is that they only added the negative effect that other summons have, and neglected to add the benefits as well. The change needed to occur, to allow value for an enemy opponents traits. The problem Is that they didn’t go far enough by allowing g boons or cleanses to effect them, as I feel they should.

I did Cliffside Fractal last night, one I used to actually pull out a turret (net) with quite a positive effect. Whelp, no longer viable, even tried some more interesting placements, still, nope. Minimal affect on PVE my kitten , but I guess they don’t really care anyways if esports needs a change they’ll go for the easiest route possible.

Since Anet might want a reasonable suggestion on how to balance turrets (who knows they might), here is what I believe they should’ve done instead of making turrets worthless.

Add 1s to the fire rates of all turrets. This sounds overly simplistic but that’s how balancing without destroying a playstyle works.

What I just propsed would In the case of the rifle turret, reduce damage substantially. The current fire rate is 2s meaning a 3s cast is a significant nerf. This would help to balance without breaking and would be far superior to the crit condition vulnerability turrets weren’t and aren’t capable or designed to cope with.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Turrets are far better and able to be traited for than any other summon. They are balanced around the fact that you only have 1 set. Nobody is forcing you to take 5 turret skills, same as nobody forces a ranger to use 5 spirit skills. Btw, spirits give the Ranger a 35% CHANCE to do some extra damage or get swiftness… Not like a turret that shoots missiles, bullets, nets or flames. Yeah, check out the Water spirit heal and compare to HT.

Turrets needed to be more vulnerable from the start, now, they are in line in that respect.

If you don’t think turrets are stronger than any other summon, organise a MM necro to summon his minions in range of your turrets, let the minions attack them. Try the same with a ranger with spirits, just get him to place them within range. Illusions too. I bet not one turret goes down.

Health of Turrets; Thumper Turret: 11950, Flame Turret: 8960, Rifle/Net/Rocket Turret: 7470, Healing Turret: 5980.

Then you get the traits; Turrets explode when killed. When your turrets explode, they push back foes. Reduces damage dealt to turrets. Turrets are self-repairing. Turrets deal more damage and have a longer attack range. Your turrets are surrounded by a reflective shield when created. Turrets apply boons to allies around them. Turret skills use ground targeting.

Turrets aren’t summons they’re constructs. Engineers aren’t able to weapon swap and rely on kits or gadgets to “swap” as other classes do. When using turrets that’s all the engineer has, they’re meant to function as they did and seriously, a ranger could destroy a turret without ever being in firing range of the turret.

I have to say that whether you are serious or not, this is, without a doubt :