Guild Wars 2

I’ve been thinking about switching to an engineer for open-world pve and silverwastes (he’s already level 80. I used to use him exclusively for pvp and amassed a lot of tomes). I’ve always loved condi builds, and I heard that engins are in a good spot with current burn damage. I was wondering what you all thought about the current state of engins in pve, if you have any preferred burn-based builds, and if Engi is worth it over a condi necro or condi Mesmer.

Javonovich.5280:

I’ve been thinking about switching to an engineer for open-world pve and silverwastes (he’s already level 80. I used to use him exclusively for pvp and amassed a lot of tomes). I’ve always loved condi builds, and I heard that engins are in a good spot with current burn damage. I was wondering what you all thought about the current state of engins in pve, if you have any preferred burn-based builds, and if Engi is worth it over a condi necro or condi Mesmer.

Almost any other class is better at condi than necro(not literally, but condi necro is ridiculously overrated), condi mesmer isn’t bad, last time I saw the numbers for staff it was just over half of a condi engineer. Pistol offhand could be strong on a condi mes, but I was told the trait is bugged(could just be an incorrect assumption on how the trait should work). It’s a very easy class to play solo, and covers almost every type of condition in large amounts. Between blind, chill, swiftness, vuln and all of the damage conditions, survival is easy, and damage just requires learning rotation/spacing.

Thanks for the info, Sly. I think I’ll shelf my necro for now and give Engi a shot.

Hello, any idea on what is a good condi pve spec? I want to try it on my engie alt.

This is what you want to use.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqalUUhSsYfWwWLQ7FLpF14POkFJYJuiHw3GGANAA-TFiHAB7q8j2TAQQ7HUregcV/p3FEA4BAAlSwAAIAzsMDghO0hO0hO0m5MH6MH6MLFAMLrA-w

Thanks, Knox. One question: Why the Nightmare runes instead of Balth in that build if burn is the main source of damage?

use rune of the undead with rabid gear :P

You’re essentially maxing on both burn and bleed duration (98%) with 5 nightmare runes and food. You’re actually doing a ton of bleed damage as well as burns, and decent physical damage when fully buffed. Personally I run with one giver’s pistol because +10% condi duration food is expensive as hell and not really worth using for normal runs.

EvilZombie.6801:

use rune of the undead with rabid gear :P

I’d note that in general PvE like Silverwastes you will not need rabid gear, as toughness will not add to your damage, and you don’t need it to survive.

Sinister gear is the way to go (power, precision, condition), since even as a condi engi you have the potential to do great direct damage through grenades and bombs.

You can also check out aristocracy runes from CM, they are like strength runes for condi builds. As an alternative to koi cakes you can get super pizzas for a couple silver and they last longer.

Not sure about prisoner’s numbers, the build that was shown is only at 65% condi duration when not on pistols. Also drop the geomancy sigil for that build and pick up strength. If you want a slightly easier/cheaper build, drop bursting and take battle or you can also pick up malice.

Firearm’s gives you +33% to both burning and bleeding durations. 65%+33%=98%. Geomancy is also a lot of damage that you don’t want to miss. At max might your geo swap will be doing around 11.4k damage, so with perfect rotations the sigil itself counts for 1.2k dps (realistically more like 1.05-1.1k).

Edit: formatting

Thanks for the advice, as well as clarification on the nightmare runes. I appreciate it.

Rezok.2709:

… Sinister gear is the way to go (power, precision, condition), since even as a condi engi you have the potential to do great direct damage through grenades and bombs.

Agreed.
For Silverwastes only, Sinister is fun. Though Rabid might be cheaper/easier to get.

Currently I am using Firearms(1,1,3), Inventions(2,3,2), Alchemy(2,2,1) with full sinister p/p.

DnT guide for reference:

yeah. still not sold 100% on the math.. But overall, I would endorse that new guide.

sinister, bursting, nightmare runesx5. +1 other, a gem.
If you can maintain it, the +250 cond damage rune is probably more then bursting.

The main issue is dungeon pve, vs world pve. Nightmare rune setup is for dungeon pve. it maximizes +duration when using expensive food and oil.
you should however consider, you wont be running around with 10% duration oil, and 40% duration food, all the time.

My guide/spreedsheets were done for using p/p, flamethrower, flameturret, and bomb. Mortar was also tested.
I found, p1 and ft1 dps to be far too mediocre. a serious problem. the DNT build gets around that with grenade spam, and dropping flameturret. turrets burns are great. But, yeah in the damage from raw grenades, makes up for it I suppose. Didnt math it out, but I would trust that choice. p1 and ft1 came out totally pathetic. it would be hard not to beat.

So, you end up spamming grenades like EVERY OTHER BUILD….. but it is max dps.

Shrapnel grenade and the shrapnel trait are what make grenades so strong for a condition setup.

The bulk of the damage that setup does comes from Fire Bomb, Shrapnel Grenade, blow torch and procs.

Casia.4281:

So, you end up spamming grenades like EVERY OTHER BUILD….. but it is max dps.

I see 12 skills in the rotation with only 4 being grenades, but if you say so.

Javonovich.5280:

I’ve been thinking about switching to an engineer for open-world pve and silverwastes (he’s already level 80. I used to use him exclusively for pvp and amassed a lot of tomes). I’ve always loved condi builds, and I heard that engins are in a good spot with current burn damage. I was wondering what you all thought about the current state of engins in pve, if you have any preferred burn-based builds, and if Engi is worth it over a condi necro or condi Mesmer.

Hi

I run a PvE burn build. Its great. I use it in silverwastes farming. In fact I farm best on it of all my toons including lootstick guard and war. Also its viable for dungeons and fractals, just switch 1 utility and/or 1 trait if you like and you’re good to go.

Heres my build, note that I will often switch out the flame turret, yea get less damage, but slick shoes with that movement buff F skill that doubles as stun-breaker on a low cd yo …. love that stuff too.

The trait I switch around all the time is the last one in Firearms, I switch between Incindiery Powder and Juggernaut, you want a FT with juggernaut when getting jumped by 5 Teragifs in silverwastes, and you want those slick shoes + elixir S combo as well, trust me on this, seriously, trust me. Otherwise you want max damage so extra burns and extra fire fields.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqalcThatYVVw+KQ7FLsFV4SdRvG4HWiBwXFehbIA-TRiAABws/wEnAgmViBwDAIa9AVr+zYKNETZAbKBJFwiSjA-e

^^ Link to the build.

Playstyle, most deeps you get out of following combo:

IA+Throw Napalm+Pistol4+FT4+Flame Turret + Orbital Strike + then go to work on it if its still up.

Play tips:

1. FT4 and Throw Napalm are fire fields, use orbital strike on them for double tap combo that gives twice the might.
2. Stay more in melee or mid range then ranged
3. While mortar in itself is weak it provides a HUGE utility, especially with the double tap orbital strike, choose your field, double tap it, and you can do it up to 1500 range if it suits you for any given situation.
4. FT2 is an almost spammable blast finisher, takes some practice to get hang of it though to get it to work right, once you do its an absolutely beautiful thing. Spam it on your own as well as everyone elses fields as much as you can.

Some other nice stuff about it: switch to Juggernaut instead of Incindeary Powder + Slick shoes instead of flame turret, switch armor to cheap Dire chest and legs with Carrion remaining 4 pieces exotics with superior runes of melandru and you have an actually really nice WvW zerging build that can hang both at range and at melee pushes. May want to also run pistol shield instead of p/p, depends on you.

Thaddeus.4891:

Casia.4281:

So, you end up spamming grenades like EVERY OTHER BUILD….. but it is max dps.

I see 12 skills in the rotation with only 4 being grenades, but if you say so.

so.. 30%? of the skills.
FT skills used 2. Inc ammo, napalm.
Bomb skills used 2. firebomb, conc bomb.
Pistol skills used 3. PDV, static, blowtorch
Grenade skills used 5. barrage, sharpnel, grenade, freeze grenade, poison grenade.
so thats 42% of total skills.

actual cast.
59 skills cast.
34 of them grenade skills 58% of the skills uses are grenade skills.
Grenade 1 18 times. 30%.

ANET you have a serious problem with grenades being the best weapon in all situations.

When grenades are the best condition AND the best direct damage weapon for 3 years after multiple balance patches. What are you doing?

Rezok.2709:

EvilZombie.6801:

use rune of the undead with rabid gear :P

I’d note that in general PvE like Silverwastes you will not need rabid gear, as toughness will not add to your damage, and you don’t need it to survive.

Sinister gear is the way to go (power, precision, condition), since even as a condi engi you have the potential to do great direct damage through grenades and bombs.

agreed but why spend so much gold? alittle more raw dps doesnt really matter since the condi dmg is the same

and using undead rune those toughness will be converted to more condi about 150++ more condi dmg

Wow! It’s great to see how helpful the Engi forum is. Thank you again guys on behalf of the 100s of viewers this thread got over the past few days.

Casia.4281:

so.. 30%? of the skills.
FT skills used 2. Inc ammo, napalm.
Bomb skills used 2. firebomb, conc bomb.
Pistol skills used 3. PDV, static, blowtorch
Grenade skills used 5. barrage, sharpnel, grenade, freeze grenade, poison grenade.
so thats 42% of total skills.

actual cast.
59 skills cast.
34 of them grenade skills 58% of the skills uses are grenade skills.
Grenade 1 18 times. 30%.

ANET you have a serious problem with grenades being the best weapon in all situations.

When grenades are the best condition AND the best direct damage weapon for 3 years after multiple balance patches. What are you doing?

What is your point? Do you want to do the same exercise with the GS on Guardian, the GS on Warrior, the Staff on Elementalist, the Dagger on Thief, the Sword on Mesmer, the Sword on Ranger?

Thaddeus.4891:

Casia.4281:

so.. 30%? of the skills.
FT skills used 2. Inc ammo, napalm.
Bomb skills used 2. firebomb, conc bomb.
Pistol skills used 3. PDV, static, blowtorch
Grenade skills used 5. barrage, sharpnel, grenade, freeze grenade, poison grenade.
so thats 42% of total skills.

actual cast.
59 skills cast.
34 of them grenade skills 58% of the skills uses are grenade skills.
Grenade 1 18 times. 30%.

ANET you have a serious problem with grenades being the best weapon in all situations.

When grenades are the best condition AND the best direct damage weapon for 3 years after multiple balance patches. What are you doing?

What is your point? Do you want to do the same exercise with the GS on Guardian, the GS on Warrior, the Staff on Elementalist, the Dagger on Thief, the Sword on Mesmer, the Sword on Ranger?

Exactly.

Though, take GS for guardian, we have an option with Hammer as well which isn’t much worse.

Or for Warrior, if you go Condi you swap to S/S + LB. And, Ranger you go Axe (or sword) and Torch for Condi.

Some professions have more reasonable options than others. Some professions are just hands down best with a single setup compared to other ones (Ele Staff vs D/F or S+LH)

I don’t want any current engi stuff to change. But, I do hope the new Elite spec can come close enough to be a fun alternative option without a drastic loss in performance. That said, I’d bet money that it’s a PVP oriented setup that will leave it very wanting in PVE.

Well i woudn’t mind if Bomb auto-attack was buff to be better than nade auto-attack. That would be a better balance IMO.

Thaddeus.4891:

Well i woudn’t mind if Bomb auto-attack was buff to be better than nade auto-attack. That would be a better balance IMO.

Outside vuln production in power builds it is already. The problem is the other skills, not the 1. The one skill I think needs some oomph is for sure concussion bomb. Raising that up, maybe some more power damage on fire bomb and we’d be looking at a much more well rounded kit worth considering over nades… though it’s kitten hard to beat that Grenade Barrage (~40% better damage than BoB, but no blast etc).

But, yeah, bomb kit is the one thing I think could use some power based upgrades to take a role in “top damage” while nades holds “Top team contribution” in power builds.

Yes and no. In a condi build bomb auto-attack do less dmg because of Shrapnel. On a direct damage build it’s the kit overall that is not worth taking unless you want to stealth.

But like you said. Bomb would use some buff to be more worth using. IMO it should give more DPS than the grenade kit since Grenade can hit from range and give a lot more vulnerability.

Thaddeus.4891:

Yes and no. In a condi build bomb auto-attack do less dmg because of Shrapnel. On a direct damage build it’s the kit overall that is not worth taking unless you want to stealth.

But like you said. Bomb would use some buff to be more worth using. IMO it should give more DPS than the grenade kit since Grenade can hit from range and give a lot more vulnerability.

True, but you’re already taking bombs in condi build and it’d be a pretty drastic change to an ability to suddenly give it like say a stack of bleeding/burning on auto or something. But, yeah, some bomb changes could certainly lend to more solid build options for engi.

bomb , mortar, tool kit and nade should stick with power build

FT and Egun should be condi build

yes FT with condi build is better then power flame jet is better off with condi as the raw dps is so low that the burning makes up the dmg

EGun is part of the power build though with it’s big hitter and utility. FT is our “loot stick” plus a few solid utility/damage skills that play a part in both builds.

Nade = primary kit
Bomb = utility/condi main/alternate primary kit
Toolkit = defensive/utility
EGun = power main/utility
Flamethrower = Power main/Condi main/utility kit.

They all have a use, all see regulary usage. The idea of flamethrower1 every having real power to me is a joke I don’t want to be a part of. EGun would need a LOT of work to become a primary condi kit but as it is there are still quality elements of it.

I don’t want to see drastic changes to our skills. I like how it is. I’d love to see something done to create more diversity but it’d need to be done without destroying the usage we already have with kits, otherwise I’d be pretty kittened. I think building up some of the other bomb skills could make bomb a solid alternative (higher dps) than grenade in power builds. You could boost EGun’s condi application elements to pull up in condi builds with nades (gain a nice stunbreak if you grab it).

It’s a delicate thing though, engi is in a pretty awesome place right now… unless you don’t like nades and rapid kit swapping. But, then I ask, why are you playing a PVE Engi? without those elements there are so many better options as I see it.

Jerus.4350:

EGun is part of the power build though with it’s big hitter and utility. FT is our “loot stick” plus a few solid utility/damage skills that play a part in both builds.

Nade = primary kit
Bomb = utility/condi main/alternate primary kit
Toolkit = defensive/utility
EGun = power main/utility
Flamethrower = Power main/Condi main/utility kit.

They all have a use, all see regulary usage. The idea of flamethrower1 every having real power to me is a joke I don’t want to be a part of. EGun would need a LOT of work to become a primary condi kit but as it is there are still quality elements of it.

I don’t want to see drastic changes to our skills. I like how it is. I’d love to see something done to create more diversity but it’d need to be done without destroying the usage we already have with kits, otherwise I’d be pretty kittened. I think building up some of the other bomb skills could make bomb a solid alternative (higher dps) than grenade in power builds. You could boost EGun’s condi application elements to pull up in condi builds with nades (gain a nice stunbreak if you grab it).

It’s a delicate thing though, engi is in a pretty awesome place right now… unless you don’t like nades and rapid kit swapping. But, then I ask, why are you playing a PVE Engi? without those elements there are so many better options as I see it.

What are gadgets and turrets?
Engineers are and have been balanced around using grenades as your primary weapon, despite pistols, rifles and harpoongun seemingly having that purpose..
And using kits and the afore mentioned actual primary weapons for 1 or 2 specific skills out of the 5.
Pretty sure that is not what any of us actually signed up for.

Can you actually give any good reason for grenade barrage to be 40-200% better then every other toolbelt skill? even untraited.. nevermind vulx7 or shrapnelx7

EG is used for 1 skill exclusively. Acid bomb. That is engi balance. have all this stuff, you use for 1 single OP skill on your bar, and swap out of the otherwise useless kit.

Super Elixir and Fumigate are nice utility

But, yes I do agree, our actual weapons are pretty weak, left to be used for specific skills never the 1.

My hope for hammer is that it changes that and has a strong 1 skill allowing all non kit builds to get a good bit more oomph.

Jerus.4350:

But, yes I do agree, our actual weapons are pretty weak, left to be used for specific skills never the 1.

My hope for hammer is that it changes that and has a strong 1 skill allowing all non kit builds to get a good bit more oomph.

The problem with that is this: If all of the kits have strong skills on 2-5 and weak-ish AA. the real damage for engy comes because you have access to all of these strong skills spread across a bunch of different kits.

Your typical Zerker rotation uses Shrapnel Grenade, Freeze Grenade, Grenade Barrage and Grenade AA as filler; Flame Blast and Incendiary Ammo; Acid Bomb, Blunderbuss and Jump Shot.

If the weapon has significant levels of damage on the AA, you basically can run the same setup as before but replace the ‘relatively weak’ grenade auto with the new hammer auto chain. Which ends up with the overall effect of doing even more damage than they currently do. It is hard to make that type of change to the dynamic of the kits without tweaking all of them together.

Knox.8962:

Jerus.4350:

But, yes I do agree, our actual weapons are pretty weak, left to be used for specific skills never the 1.

My hope for hammer is that it changes that and has a strong 1 skill allowing all non kit builds to get a good bit more oomph.

The problem with that is this: If all of the kits have strong skills on 2-5 and weak-ish AA. the real damage for engy comes because you have access to all of these strong skills spread across a bunch of different kits.

Your typical Zerker rotation uses Shrapnel Grenade, Freeze Grenade, Grenade Barrage and Grenade AA as filler; Flame Blast and Incendiary Ammo; Acid Bomb, Blunderbuss and Jump Shot.

If the weapon has significant levels of damage on the AA, you basically can run the same setup as before but replace the ‘relatively weak’ grenade auto with the new hammer auto chain. Which ends up with the overall effect of doing even more damage than they currently do. It is hard to make that type of change to the dynamic of the kits without tweaking all of them together.

Ohh I know. I’m looking for it to have similar damage output to Bombs with maybe another effect making it nice. Nades would still be “better” considering Vuln production, but you’d strengthen every non kit option in doing so. It wouldn’t be better, it’d just be more solid.

Right now we have
Rifle: .65 coefficient.
Frag shot: .35 coefficient with 1 bleed stack.

Compared to:
Bomb: 1.25 coefficient
Grenade: .99 coefficient (with all landing)
plus you get explosive trait procs on these and 10% damage.

It’s a pretty big gap (cast times are a little different but too lazy to look up the actuals right now, tooltips are wrong not including aftercasts).

Yes if hammer was at bomb level you could potentially slip hammer in where grenades typically went, but you’d lose all the explosive bonus procs, and you’d lose Jump Shot and Blunderbuss for power builds.

It’s surely a fine line, but they can strengthen every non kit focused build by giving it much more strength than the other weapons without exceeding it so much as to provide large gains to the kit builds.

I think Bomb level damage with a blast finisher on final swing being a slower weapon would fit into that role just fine. No massive burst damage skills to prevent it from taking a big role in kit rotations, but CC/Utility to be worthwhile. I think doing it like that you’d still want Rifle primary for the meta kit power build, P/P for condi, and then hammer would be an option for those or the primary for non kit focused builds. Sure you’d still gain a lot from using EG/Nades for those big hitters, but you could potentially run a S/D build that has more oomph than it does right now without kits.

Casia.4281:

What are gadgets and turrets?
Engineers are and have been balanced around using grenades as your primary weapon, despite pistols, rifles and harpoongun seemingly having that purpose..
And using kits and the afore mentioned actual primary weapons for 1 or 2 specific skills out of the 5.
Pretty sure that is not what any of us actually signed up for.

Can you actually give any good reason for grenade barrage to be 40-200% better then every other toolbelt skill? even untraited.. nevermind vulx7 or shrapnelx7

EG is used for 1 skill exclusively. Acid bomb. That is engi balance. have all this stuff, you use for 1 single OP skill on your bar, and swap out of the otherwise useless kit.

Its not balanced around Nade Kit….. we just ended up uisng nades in the majority of builds because it has a high chance to proc Shrapnel, and works as both power and condi. To top it off, despite being made med range, we use it at all ranges because its still an AOE delivery mechanism.

As for our main weapons; Despite being powerful, they’re very sluggish. This fact helped further push toward kit mains, and Rifle/Pistol bursts. What forced us into rotations for non-grenade kits were the cool downs.

So its not so much that Grenades were OP, simply that they have natural synergy by way of mechanics. The solution isn’t to nerf grenades, but actually resolve some of the problems with other kits, that cause their synergy to be lost to odd mechanical limitations. If anything, Shrapnel as a trait is incredibly strong, and becomes OP when proced Enmass.

For bomb kit, the elephant in the room is Skill 1, which is a power based in a condi heavy setup, an attack with no utility, and weak synergy due to its cycle time. A partial solution would be to make the Skill 1 a heavy hitter type like the other bombs with a cool down. However, I’d much rather see the Bomb kit’s mechanics be rethought into a more controlled mechanism. Off the cuff, I would consider making all bombs manually detonated, using Skill 1 as the trigger skill. But this makes its handling a little clunkly, as players will want to drop them like traps, and then swap to ranged weapon to maintain pressure. Another alternative is to trait them so they convert to sticky mines, that center on target before detonating.

Another design flop is us taking kits for only 1 or 2 skills due to utility. Elixir gun is taken almost exclusively for its Stun Break and condition clear…. which is fine because its a support tool. But then we look at the “versatile” tool kit, that on paper synergizes well, but is too clunkly in practice to use as intended.

The net result of these individually small discrepancies is making the class more rotation heavy like an Ele, rather then being reactive like it was designed for. I feel this would had been less of a problem if the Tool kits were snappy (swapping in and out for a specific task) , and the Main weapon the one we default to for applying pressure.