Guild Wars 2

Hello all.

TL:DR = Allow the option to have a “specific” kit be defined as the “other” weapon, freeing up a single skill slot for something else. so I could swap between say rifle and bomb kit with the ` key.

I’ve been playing an engineer for nearly all of my GW2 gaming time, and I love it. Underpowered, Overpowered, who cares? I enjoy playing the class.

One thing, a tiny thing, that grates me a lot is that we have a very small selection of weapon choices. You’ll all know what these are ofcourse, but here’s the list:

- Rifle
- Pistol Pistol
- Pistol Shield

Okay cool – what’s the problem? Well we can only have one of these choices on our character. Okay … every other class has two weapon choices (except elementalists), but we do have those BEAUTIFUL KITS! Bomb, Grenade, Elixir, Wrench and what not.

Again – what’s the problem? We lose one skill slot because of our kit choice, I’d imagine most engineers run with at least 1 kit they use on and off with their main weapon, if not the majority of the time. Does this majorly disadvantage us in comparison to other classes? Probably not.

What I would love to see however – is a “choice” kit that we can choose to have as the weapon swap ability (`) – we have our main weapon, and a kit on the press of `. This allows us to still have 3 skills (none of which can be the choice kit, but can be another kit if you really want). It’s a small change, but I don’t feel it would “overpower” us on this change alone, it would simply open up a few more options for some builds, no longer are we penalised for choosing a kit where all other classes have two “kits” (weapons) anyway. Elementalists don’t have to worry because when they choose a weapon, they choose it because they like all 20 skills from their attunements!

Overall – the only thing it essentially does, is give us a third skill slot, like every other class has.

What does everyone else think? Good, bad, Engifever?

You don’t lose a skill slot by using a kit. You have the toolbelt skills for that.

I’ve thought about this before, and I initially would have liked the option to have rifle/flamethrower plus three utility slots of my choosing. But the problem lies in the toolbet. I don’t think they’d give us a fifth toolbet skill, so that creates a bit of a problem.

Aether McLoud.1975:

You don’t lose a skill slot by using a kit. You have the toolbelt skills for that.

Yup, B.O.B. is one heck of a skill. I rarely even use the kit.

I personally have no problems with how it is now.

I like this idea. I’ve actually suggested it a few times – we get few weapon choices and don’t get weapon swapping because of Kits, after all, and this would give every Engineer, regardless of build or skill layout, a Kit to use. Could a utility slot be used for said Kit? Sure. But maybe the user would rather use it for something else.

Things I usually see people bring up as reasons not to do it:
Concern that swap cooldown would be implemented on Kits.

…and that’s about it. After that, it devolves into “We don’t sacrifice a utility slot – that’s what the Toolbelt is supposed to make up for!” and disregard for the concept that maybe some people would rather use a different skill. Edit: oop, somebody already said it.

Personally, I think that the ‘cooldown possibility’ could be negated by A ) not giving a toolbelt skill to the weapon-slot kit, and B ) don’t have the weapon-slot kit activate Kit Refinement.

I would only support this if it meant new kit skins. Otherwise, I like how having them on a utility is a different dynamic than everyone else has.

Now, a second traditional weapon set that we can only swap out of combat, that I’d like to see (and for my Elementalist too).

Weirwynn.2390:

Now, a second traditional weapon set that we can only swap out of combat, that I’d like to see (and for my Elementalist too).

I could certainly get behind that.

It would solve some logical problems with turret builds…as things stand now, either you can heal them or bring 3 turrets, since the tool kit will spend a slot. Albeit, they’ve got far worse problems.
Albeit, since that kit is also our only real melee weapon, if devs don’t want to add one of those, putting kits could be another viable choice.
Oh, and toolbelts aren’t comparable to utility slots anyway. And even when they are, the utility slot gets nerfed instead to compensate for it (Elixir R anyone?).

Aether McLoud.1975:

You don’t lose a skill slot by using a kit. You have the toolbelt skills for that.

…Except that slotting a Gadget or Turret also grants that extra skill, so… yes, you do lose one.

Aether McLoud.1975:

You don’t lose a skill slot by using a kit. You have the toolbelt skills for that.

You are failing to get the point. We are sacrificing a utility slot for what should be a “secondary weapon.” Eles have 4 attunments and can freely select their utility skills; every other class (except us) has access to 2 weapons, and they do not have to sacrifice a utility slot for it. We are penalized for something that every class has access to in some way shape or form. The tool belt is not all it is cracked up to be. Yes we do have the tool belt, but we are not able to select those skills, they are based off the skill in the corresponding utility slot. This creates a lack of options, a lack of options creates a lack of builds.

This is why the Ele is so powerful in comparison, they have access to not only every attunment by default, but can freely select their utility skills at the same time. Could you imagine if the Ele had something similar to what we Engineers have to deal with? What if Eles had to equip their attunments on their utility slots? So if they wanted every attunment, they would have to use all their utility slots for their attunments, and not have access to a weapon swap. This is exactly the kind of asinine crap that we have to deal with.

end rant

I like the OP’s suggestion, in fact I have seen this mentioned before on reddit and these forums.
Here is a counter suggestion:
6 classes share weapon swapping with a unique trait for each, Eles have Attunment swapping. Why not make the Engineer’s “attunments” our kits? Our traits will have to be reworked for this, but since most of our traits need to be reworked anyway, I fail to see any reason why this couldn’t be done.

Off topic but… combine turrets to make a turret kit.

kthxbye

I have stated this idea before too and so have numerous other engineers on numerous threads… never with any response. Yes the toolbelt skill missing for things like B.O.B is an issue with doing this. Maybe that’s a sacrifice the engi will have to choose when putting a kit there. That should be up to the individual engi. Bomb kit as utility and gain the tool belt skill or put it in the secondary slot and lose this skill. For flame thrower and tool kit its not a huge loss… but for bomb and grenade kit it is. I’d still love the option to have a kit in a weapon slot to allow a little more selection in builds such as turret and gadget builds.

Specterryu Quipter.8412:

Aether McLoud.1975:

You don’t lose a skill slot by using a kit. You have the toolbelt skills for that.

You are failing to get the point. We are sacrificing a utility slot for what should be a “secondary weapon.” Eles have 4 attunments and can freely select their utility skills; every other class (except us) has access to 2 weapons, and they do not have to sacrifice a utility slot for it. We are penalized for something that every class has access to in some way shape or form. The tool belt is not all it is cracked up to be. Yes we do have the tool belt, but we are not able to select those skills, they are based off the skill in the corresponding utility slot. This creates a lack of options, a lack of options creates a lack of builds.

This is why the Ele is so powerful in comparison, they have access to not only every attunment by default, but can freely select their utility skills at the same time. Could you imagine if the Ele had something similar to what we Engineers have to deal with? What if Eles had to equip their attunments on their utility slots? So if they wanted every attunment, they would have to use all their utility slots for their attunments, and not have access to a weapon swap. This is exactly the kind of asinine crap that we have to deal with.

end rant

I like the OP’s suggestion, in fact I have seen this mentioned before on reddit and these forums.
Here is a counter suggestion:
6 classes share weapon swapping with a unique trait for each, Eles have Attunment swapping. Why not make the Engineer’s “attunments” our kits? Our traits will have to be reworked for this, but since most of our traits need to be reworked anyway, I fail to see any reason why this couldn’t be done.

Off topic but… combine turrets to make a turret kit.

kthxbye

Counterpoint to countersuggestion: If they made the Engineer’s Class Mechanic the Kits instead of the Toolbelt, then we’d essentially be a tech-based Elementalist in heavier armor. Such a change might actually drive me, at least, from the Engineer – I don’t like using Kits to begin with, and if they were promoted to class mechanic, I’d have to. If I want that kind of gameplay, I have an Elementalist…who I already don’t play.

Instead, to make a comment about the class mechanic: I’d rather they let us choose our Toolbelt skills independently of our Utility skills. It would open up a lot of unexpected combinations – and build diversity, after all, is a pretty big concern. Relatively small change, with unpredictable results.

Also: Don’t combine turrets into a kit. That would be overpowered – five turrets, on top of two other Utility Skills (or three, if the OP’s suggestion was implemented), would just be nuts. If you really want Turrets to be linked to Bundles somehow, then have each Turret be able to be picked up and used as an improvised weapon.

NO! leave my kits alone thank you.

Evo Sapien.5298:

NO! leave my kits alone thank you.

…

This would not do anything to your kits except let you equip one in that unused secondary weapon slot that we don’t have a use for anyway with our current dearth of weapon choices, at least as far as I can tell.

Specterryu Quipter.8412:

Aether McLoud.1975:

You don’t lose a skill slot by using a kit. You have the toolbelt skills for that.

You are failing to get the point. We are sacrificing a utility slot for what should be a “secondary weapon.” Eles have 4 attunments and can freely select their utility skills; every other class (except us) has access to 2 weapons, and they do not have to sacrifice a utility slot for it. We are penalized for something that every class has access to in some way shape or form. The tool belt is not all it is cracked up to be. Yes we do have the tool belt, but we are not able to select those skills, they are based off the skill in the corresponding utility slot. This creates a lack of options, a lack of options creates a lack of builds.

This is why the Ele is so powerful in comparison, they have access to not only every attunment by default, but can freely select their utility skills at the same time. Could you imagine if the Ele had something similar to what we Engineers have to deal with? What if Eles had to equip their attunments on their utility slots? So if they wanted every attunment, they would have to use all their utility slots for their attunments, and not have access to a weapon swap. This is exactly the kind of asinine crap that we have to deal with.

end rant

I like the OP’s suggestion, in fact I have seen this mentioned before on reddit and these forums.
Here is a counter suggestion:
6 classes share weapon swapping with a unique trait for each, Eles have Attunment swapping. Why not make the Engineer’s “attunments” our kits? Our traits will have to be reworked for this, but since most of our traits need to be reworked anyway, I fail to see any reason why this couldn’t be done.

Off topic but… combine turrets to make a turret kit.

kthxbye

Don’t forget that the Engineer main weapons deal less damage per skill than those of other classes who also have two.

Aether McLoud.1975:

You don’t lose a skill slot by using a kit. You have the toolbelt skills for that.

So by that logic we lose our class mechanic. Not that this claim makes any sense anyway, as every utility skill has a toolbelt skill, not just kits. And kits in fact have some of the worst.

It amazes me that people are arguing that a skill that gives you access to five more skills is somehow a loss.

Anymras.5729:

Evo Sapien.5298:

NO! leave my kits alone thank you.

…

This would not do anything to your kits except let you equip one in that unused secondary weapon slot that we don’t have a use for anyway with our current dearth of weapon choices, at least as far as I can tell.

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn’t notice it the first time I saw this thread.

In that case, this is a terrible idea and will never happen. Allowing access to kits through two different mechanics would be confusing to new players, conceptually messy, and basically just be all-around bad game design.

Anymras.5729:

Counterpoint to countersuggestion: If they made the Engineer’s Class Mechanic the Kits instead of the Toolbelt, then we’d essentially be a tech-based Elementalist in heavier armor. Such a change might actually drive me, at least, from the Engineer – I don’t like using Kits to begin with, and if they were promoted to class mechanic, I’d have to. If I want that kind of gameplay, I have an Elementalist…who I already don’t play.

Instead, to make a comment about the class mechanic: I’d rather they let us choose our Toolbelt skills independently of our Utility skills. It would open up a lot of unexpected combinations – and build diversity, after all, is a pretty big concern. Relatively small change, with unpredictable results.

Also: Don’t combine turrets into a kit. That would be overpowered – five turrets, on top of two other Utility Skills (or three, if the OP’s suggestion was implemented), would just be nuts. If you really want Turrets to be linked to Bundles somehow, then have each Turret be able to be picked up and used as an improvised weapon.

Both the Engineer and the Ele are the only classes to not have weapon swap, Eles get a cooldown between their attunments, BUT they have access to all their attunments by default. I’m not saying that we need access to every one of our kits (which would impose a cool down on our kits, that’s a no no). I’m saying we need to be have access to SOME of our kits without getting penalized for it.

As far as my turret kit suggestion goes, that is the ONLY conceivable way to make them useful in PvE. Yes there will be balancing issues starting out but the turrets will be used and there would be much rejoicing. I agree that turrets are just fine in PvP however, in PvE they are just a step above useless. When it comes to doing a dungeon, having a turret Engineer is worse than a longbow bear Ranger. Skills and traits need to be spit entirely from PvE to PvP, similar to what happened in GW1. Anet looks at the turrets from the PvP perspective and sees that they are fine and are not checking the PvE perspective to see if they are good to go. That is the only reasonable explanation as to why 9-10 months in turrets are still a step above useless.

If what you’re suggesting is that we get our F-keys as Kit slots (whether they need to be unlocked with skill points, can be chosen, etcetera), then you’re pretty much suggesting that we get turned into tech-based Elementalists with a drinking problem and bad fashion sense. If not, I’d like to hear a more detailed explanation.

The balancing would likely need to consist of nerfing an already weak skill set – probably both in PvE and in PvP, due to having five out of six turrets on one skillbar. Turrets can work, even in PvE (and I should know, I stuck with the things almost exclusively from 5-80, still use at least a couple and rarely venture into PvP-type content), but need to scale properly to be on the same level as, say, Kits; their survivability and damage output could be improved pretty drastically if Power/Precision/Toughness/Vitality bonuses from gear (trait bonuses, oddly enough, already apply) applied to the kitten things.

This suggestion is too good to be true. What kind of dreamland are you in? If we can equip a weapon kit as a secondary weapon, A-net will probably nerf the weapon kits on the utility slots, possibly a cooldown.

No thank you, I like engis playstyle the way it is.

Leave kits alone is in response to the nerf that would happen to the skills if we got to equip an extra kit.

No, please leave the engineer design alone. Why does everyone not see that our kits are essentially our weapons? Swapping to my Elixir Gun is no different than a warrior swapping to his longbow, except he has to wait for a cooldown to swap back. We don’t. My kit gives me 5 new skills to use, just like a weapon. That’s awesome. And instead of being limited to 2 weapon sets like every other profession (‘cept ele) we can have up to 5!!! 5 weapons to swap between. And we don’t lose utility skills by equipping kits, cuz we get our toolbelt skills, which synergize pretty nicely. As a bonus, when we choose non-kit utilities, it’s like getting 2 skills in 1, cuz we sill get toolbelt skills. We have so many skill options to swap between in combat it’s silly.

If you want to use ` to swap from your rifle to your kit, assign ` as your key to use utility #7 and then put that kit there. Everytime you hit ` (or 7) it will either equip your kit or unequip it, which re-equips your gun.

Except toolbelts aren’t as good as utilities – and when they are even comparable, the utility get nerfed to being subpar instead (hi, elixir r), we don’t get a second weapon slot when not using kits and our main weapons damage is nerfed due to the mere existance of kits. So using a full turret/gadget/elixir build means shooting yourself on the foots, since you already paid a price for kits, even if you don’t actually want to use them.

I’m a Kits Engi. In my standard build, I have access to 30 skills while in (land) combat. My ele has access to 25 skills while in combat. My thief has access to 16 skills while in combat. I’m not sure how you’d justify giving Engineers access to even more skills without making the whole bunch of them less effective, and we surely do not need that on top of our weapon damage penalty.

What I would like to know is since we cannot swap to another weapon when we swap to our kits should we not be able to trigger sigils that have “on weapon swap” effects whenever we switch from weapon to kit or kit to weapon?