Guild Wars 2

-- Intro --

So a lot of folks are asking for a long range option for the engineer that doesn’t operate solely on ground targeted AoE. I keep seeing sniper rifle pop up, but the role of soldier or patient killer belongs to the Warrior / Thief respectively... the Engineer is more of a steampunk chemist than anything else, so I present to you the STEAM CANNON.

-- The Steam Cannon --

This will be a mannable, long range turret, similar to the mortar, except that only the engineer that places it will be able to operate it. Manning the turret will replace the 1-5 skills with Steam Cannon specific ones (listed below). Doing so will limit movement, but not entirely, via new controller mechanic (explained below); toolbelt and utility skills will remain usable.

-- Controller Mechanic --

I’m going with a turret because so many people seem to want a "sniper kit" of sorts, which causes your character to go prone or something when used, causing you to be immobile... so, even though I don’t like snipers, it seems to be preference that mobility be one of the weaknesses of the long range (non-grenade) engineer.

That said, complete immobility in this game is a death sentence; we need to be able to dodge and such, so here’s the happy middle-ground.

Attached to the Steam Cannon is cable (akin to the cables which control the breaks on your bicycle) and attached to the cable is a controller (consisting of hydraulics, pneumatics, and clockwork; not circuitry or LED’s etc). When the engineer is holding the controller, s/he will be limited to move within a radius of the Steam Cannon, dictated by the length of the cable. If the player strays too far, the controller will be dropped, and the turret unmanned. Dodging and such will function normally.

Rough visual of the Controller mechanic:
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/8308/controller.png

Rough concept of the Steam Cannon visual:
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/7647/steamcannon.png
**Pardon the Xbox controller. Googled "steampunk controller" and that was the best I could find. Also, the actual turret should probably look a bit more steampunk-y... like gears sticking out, guages scattered about the device, etc; again, the turret used in the image is simply the best I could find in a few minutes of browsing Google.

-- Skills --

Utility Skill:
• (If turret not built)
Build a Steam Cannon to fire at your target.

• (If turret built, but controller not equipped)
Pick up the Steam Cannon’s controller. Must be within interaction range of the
Controller (not the turret).

• (If turret built, but controller equipped)
Drop controller.

1-5 Skills:
#1: Fire - Direct damage; high damage, slow rate of fire. (auto attack)

#2: Aim for the knees - Medium Damage, knocks target down, followed by cripple.

#3: Rail Gun - Fires a high-velocity projectile at the target; damaging any non-friendly target in the line of fire.

#4: Panic Button - Fires a... who cares, just fire!!
-- Random chance to fire any of the following:
• Spare Parts (gears, scrap metal, etc) - Shower the area around your target with debris, causing direct damage and bleeding.
• Wasps Nest - AoE Poison and Fear
• Incendiary Glue - AoE Fire and Slow
• Tear Gas - AoE Blind
• (Low %) Asura Maintenance Worker - Fires an unfortunate, screaming / flailing asura at the target. Whoops; thought he was finished in there. Direct damage where the asura lands; AoE Confusion in proximity to where the asura lands. ...he’s not getting up, is he?
(combo fields apply where logical)

#5: Concussion Round - (Grount Targeted AoE) Fires a high-explosive at the target location, causing medium-low damage, and AoE Knockback.

Toolbelt Skill:
• (If turret not built)
Mini-Rail: Fires a (very small) high-velocity projectile at the target; damaging any non-friendly target in the line of fire.

• (If turret built)
Detonate Steam Cannon

Not Really A Skill, But... :
Right-Clicking / interacting with the Steam Cannon (not the controller) will pick it up, making it disappear and activating a CD for replacement; CD for picking it up is shorter than CD for detonating it, as is the case with all turrets.

-- Conclusion --

I believe that’s everything. Please note that none of the above lists any specific values such as "Range 1500" or "30 sec CD" or any of that jazz. Let’s keep it that way - focus on the Steam Cannon as a CONCEPT, and keep things like "so and so ability does too much/little damage" etc. to yourself.

USEFUL comments would be things like "Hey, Engineers can already do everything provided by the suggested Steam Cannon Ability X, using the existing ability Y, so I’d replace that one with my new idea: ability Z!"

...so criticism is, of course, welcome; but keep it constructive, and leave the number crunching to Anet - they do it better anyway.

...yar?

If I wasn’t about to leave for dinner, I’d give better feedback. I just saw “steam cannon” and wanted to say that I played Torchlight 2 recently, and hauling around an actual, big kitten cannon as a heavy ranged weapon is awesome and more games should do that.

This sounds like a little much for a utility skill, but it’s a real nice twist on the mortar. I’d be really happy to have something like this as an elite.

Haette.2701:

If I wasn’t about to leave for dinner, I’d give better feedback. I just saw “steam cannon” and wanted to say that I played Torchlight 2 recently, and hauling around an actual, big kitten cannon as a heavy ranged weapon is awesome and more games should do that.

This sounds like a little much for a utility skill, but it’s a real nice twist on the mortar. I’d be really happy to have something like this as an elite.

No worries, Haette!

Getting a lot out of utility skills is kind of a theme for engineers – could you not say the same about any of their kits? This would be kind of a kit/turret hybrid in that it’s placed like a turret, but when the controller is equipped, functions as a kit; I think it’d fit right in with the grenade kit, flame thrower, etc.

That said, I could see this as an elite skill, too – just keep the CD comparable to existing turrets. …for necromancers, isn’t their flesh golem elite more or less passive (like they can have it out indefinitely)? The Steam Cannon could be the engineer equivilent; takes an elite skill, but is used in a consistent fashion.

I laughed at the launching of the Asura. Sounds like an improved version of the Mortar, which I will always approve as Mortar is a bit lackluster.

Honestly I think you should just be able to dodge off a turret anyway. It’s not like you’re strapped in; you just stand there.

As for the actual function, it seems interesting but almost too useful, in a way. Maybe not to be balanced, but to be implemented. It seems a bit… more than the other kits, and from what I’ve seen so far I honestly think elite skills are mostly novelty (I’d take an extra utility instead any day).

I like the idea of a direct-fire cannon though. I just don’t think it would happen.

I would love to see the Mortar elite replaced with a small Steam Tank. Just juice up the mortar’s damage, range and make it fast moving. Of course let anyone ride it.

Update

I was having trouble finding a non-Games Workshop steam tank, but here is ones.
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/45/128582889_2f1b22ed53.jpg

Well i hate rng, so obviously i hated the one ability but it was amusing anyway. Definitly agree it sounds like a replacement for the mortar.

Upsides. Its unique and cooler than the mortar. remote is unique.

Downsides. Sounds like this would cause some issues though as targeting with something that has a max range from where its sitting but…your always moving so…this would end up being very complicated and frusterating for most.

Also, it suffers the problem of being stationary much like supply drop and mortar does currently. Netglent’s steamtank already sounds 100x cooler and he doesnt even have a nice write up.

Everything needs a weakness; if we’re going for a long range, high damage option, something needs to be sacrificed so that other players have a counter to the build.

In this case, mobility is sacrificed; but not completely, as you retain the ability to dodge, and move within a radius of the cannon.

If we want it to be fully mobile, we’d probably be looking at something more like the charrzooka. BUT, being fully mobile and able to crank out tons of sustained damage at long range would simply be overpowered; so perhaps the focus of that build could be control (stuns, snares, etc) instead of damage.

I could see a (probably charr) steam tank showing up at some point, but I would expect something like that to be a siege weapon; not something we could just whip up at any time and cruise around in.

I do like this idea and i commend the thought you have put into this, i would very much like to see something like this rather than (shudder) the mortar.

Visually within the game i think it should appear the same, or similiar to the flak cannons that shoot down the Claw of Jormag in Frostgorge Sound, they have a really nice cannon/railgun look to them.

I want it just to shoot unlucky (and probably very surprised) Asura mechanics at my enemies.

Sounds like a great alternative to the mortar, but I think what the majority of people had in mind is a long range kit that was actually mobile, not stationary.

Well, I’d be more than happy if this replaced the mortar.

Anywho, if this becomes more of a shoulder-mounted cannon that’s fully mobile, what should its downside be?

The grenade kit, for example, allows sustained high damage at long range; but only if the target is stationary. Predicting movement becomes exponentially more difficult the farther and farther you are from your target, to the point that at the 1500 range, it’s nigh impossible to hit mobile targets, especially in PvP. So, the grenade kit’s weakness is that it’s not always a reliable source of damage, cuz you’ll miss a lot.

I haven’t really dabbled into the other classes... like, at all... so I’m not really sure what the downsides of their long range options are; perhaps we should explore those a bit so that we can apply them to the currently nonexistent long range single target engineer.

Gruntcommander.9807:

I do like this idea and i commend the thought you have put into this, i would very much like to see something like this rather than (shudder) the mortar.

Visually within the game i think it should appear the same, or similiar to the flak cannons that shoot down the Claw of Jormag in Frostgorge Sound, they have a really nice cannon/railgun look to them.

Thanks!

Checked out those flak cannons, and while they do have a very rail-gun-y look to them, imo they look a bit too high tech with the blue energy buzzing around them and the whole gravity-defying thing. They’d look alright with Asura engineers, I guess, but very out of place with any other race.

The other engineer turrets have a rugged, steampunk look to them, so the steam cannon should fit that description as well (again, imo).

Found a turret in the Black Citadel that would be perfect – check it out:
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/8676/turretf.png

^are you sure that’s not a weird mortar itself? It does look pretty nice though. I wouldn’t mind having one of those as a kit or something, just as long as it wasn’t a weak ‘elite’ skill with a six year cooldown like the mortar (and most elites in general).

Now I do not know about you guys, but I got stuck in the OP when I read this.

Haltus Kain.4578:

I keep seeing sniper rifle pop up, but the role of soldier or patient killer belongs to the Warrior / Thief respectively… the Engineer is more of a steampunk chemist than anything else,

I am sorry, but I simply have to stop reading and believe anything you have to suggest is going to be a ridiculously horrible idea when one of the first things you do is attempt to tell us what role we have to play with our professions.

The point of this game is that any class should be able to fulfill any role and that you can play your class the way you like. Then the OP comes on and “claims” other wise in his first paragraph.

For some useful feedback OP. If you do not want to turn people off and put the wrong foot forward, by contradicting the ideology of the game developer themselves, it might be useful to not do that. People such as my self read your first paragraph and no longer care what you have to say because it feels like some high and mighty elitists
is pigeon holing the classes and trying to start discussions about how we should play them.

coglin.1496:

The point of this game is that any class should be able to fulfill any role and that you can play your class the way you like.

You’re misinterpreting ‘role’ if you think that. Apply the reasoning to some other things, and it’s pretty obvious the game wasn’t intended the way you think. For instance, there’s the entire concept of heavy/medium/light armour and weapon types being restricted by class. You can’t be a sniping engineer (very effectively) right now – but neither can you run around swinging axes left and right like a warrior. In fact you can only melee at all using a single kit. If you play an elementalist, you don’t get to plate up and tank like a guardian or warrior. And if you’re a warrior, no matter how much you want to cast lightning bolts at people – no.

Complaints that the engineer doesn’t have a viable sniper make about as much sense as wanting the grenade kit on a warrior. It’s not some sort of bug that you don’t have those things, it’s like that by design. Warriors will just have to make do with their shorter range longbow for ranged AoE, and engineers will have to make do with their mid-range rifle for single targets (if, for some reason, they don’t like to use the grenade kit which can be traited up to 1500 and does decent multi-target damage already).

We have explosive ranged attacks. On purpose. The OP isn’t doing anything wrong in keeping with this theme.

Misrepresenting? Not likely my friend. You appear ot misunderstand the meaning of the word “role”
Sorry, but armor has nothing to do with some clown telling my I can only be a patient killer as a thief. Hard to take anyone seriously who calls the most bursty fast killing class in the game the “patent killer” Last time I checked, spamming pistol whip and heart seeker on the initiative system isn’t patient at all. Honestly, I cannot even fathom what anyone would be thinking to make that claim, unless they had never played the class and had no idea about how it worked.

It appears your simply confused about the terms you are arguing with. Using axes, or lightning bolts has nothing to do with your role. If your a Damage dealer, then your a damage dealer, that is your role, regardless of the fact that it is as a melee with axes or a caster. If your a crowd control specialist, or a group conditions cleanser, or built heal heavy, no one gives a rats behind how heavy your armor is.

Feel free to allow that heavy armor clown to stand there and attempt to take hits, while I out perform him on my lesser Hp/def because I have the good sense to dodge, and can do so a great many times more then him because I can dodge twice as much with the ability to keep vigor up. If you think a tanky, high Hp/def build taking a hit, trumps any other Hp/def level dodging, well, your just crazy.

Um. I think you’ve totally missed the point he was making with that remark. Consider the basics of a sniper: there’s tons of preparation and waiting around and then bang! You take out your enemy. This is very much burst damage – hence it would be fitting on a thief. Of course a thief (currently) differs in that they can’t just wait around. Their attacks are pretty short-ranged. But they do specialize in setting up their attacks and doing a lot of damage all at once (stealth, attacks that do more damage from certain angles, using skills from a pool of points instead of cooldown).

A warrior is pretty self evident, as they actually have a ‘burst skill’. In the rifle’s case it actually functions in a way that requires careful setting up, as well, because with its cast time and one-shot nature it’s easily avoided.

He’s not saying warriors and thieves are ‘patient’ because killing someone takes them a long time.

No, umm, I think you have totally missed the point. You have yet to describe something I cannot do as well on the engineer. I am well aware of his point. I am just curious of how he and yourself for that matter can sit here and make claims that go against everyone in game experiences, and the game developer themselves, and try to falsly convince everyone they have restricting, pigeon holing roles, depending on the class.

If you like, I can link a nice burst damage grenade build in which folks set nice fast burst kills up with sneaky control and destroy players.

Yet you are attempting to argue that it is okay for the OP to “claim” we cannot do this because it is our role.

The point is, you cannot name a task that another profession can do, that we cannot thrive at as well. Yet your attempting to convince us that we should accept some claiming other wise.

His first paragraph is very specifically claiming we do not deserve that role because of some other class. Which is absolute hogwash.

Nobody said you couldn’t do burst damage on an engineer. I was correcting your assumption that ‘patient killer’ referred to dealing damage slowly. Read the OP again. Specifically, the first paragraph. It has nothing to do with ‘these guys kill slow/fast’. He’s talking about appearance.

You’re going on about being a ‘damage dealer’ or whatever and how it doesn’t matter if it’s melee or casting. This is precisely the point I was making by bringing up different weapon/armour types. A warrior can deal a lot of damage… but he can’t fire lightning. It’s a style difference. His effectiveness wouldn’t change if he had lightning instead of a rifle, but that’s not what a warrior was designed for. In the same way an engineer doesn’t have a sniper, but he has grenades. Mesmers wear light armour and survive with fancy tricks. It goes on like that.

The entire point the OP was making is that the ‘cannon’ skill would be cosmetically fitting to the engineer. You’re just determined to read it as somehow limiting whether or not the class is allowed to… well, something. Not attack at range, because that’s what a cannon does. Not burst damage, because that’s what a cannon does…

What exactly are you expecting him to take away from you?

What assumption? You must have made one yourself, because I have no idea how you jumped to that conclusion.

Secondly, You seem a little confused on some issues. For example, you appear to believe style is synonymous with role. that is not the case. The OP never mentioned style, and I never mentioned style. Your the only one who is doing this. Why does style have to do with the role in any way, shape, or form? Further more, what are you even talking about with this “designed for” stuff? A role is assigned or assumed position or pattern of action. I have no idea how you assumed to bring “style” into that.

As far as you weird and out of left field comment

What exactly are you expecting him to take away from you?

I will just ignore that all together, as it would appear to me that your asking this off the wall question based on the premise of some very strange and incorrect assumptions your making.
As far as your reference to the “entire point” the OP is trying to make, It is irrelevant. That was my entire point. My determination not to read it is my prerogative. I do not need your permission to have my opinion, thanks.
The Op very literally stated that specific roles belong to specific classes. That is not true in actual game play, it is not true in developer philosophy, and it is not true factually. Why you are so adamantly defending pigeon holing classes and pushing the idea that you have to play a certain class to do a certain job or fill a certain role in beyond me, as well it is beyond the ideology of the game itself.

coglin.1496:

What assumption? You must have made one yourself, because I have no idea how you jumped to that conclusion.

This one: Sorry, but armor has nothing to do with some clown telling my I can only be a patient killer as a thief. Hard to take anyone seriously who calls the most bursty fast killing class in the game the “patent killer” Last time I checked, spamming pistol whip and heart seeker on the initiative system isn’t patient at all.

You’ve assumed that the ‘patience’ in his description refers to something that is contrary to burst damage.

coglin.1496:

Secondly, You seem a little confused on some issues. For example, you appear to believe style is synonymous with role. that is not the case. The OP never mentioned style, and I never mentioned style. Your the only one who is doing this. Why does style have to do with the role in any way, shape, or form? Further more, what are you even talking about with this “designed for” stuff? A role is assigned or assumed position or pattern of action. I have no idea how you assumed to bring “style” into that.

I use the word ‘style’ because you’re acting as if ‘role’ is used solely with reference to some ideas you have about roles which you assume everyone else shares. ‘Damage dealer’ et al are what you mean when you say role. That doesn’t mean it’s what the OP is talking about. Engineer could itself be considered a role. ‘Steampunk chemist’ could be considered a role. That doesn’t mean a ‘steampunk chemist’ is set apart from ‘soldier’ and ‘patient killer’ in the same way as your ‘damage dealer’ role is set apart from ‘crowd control’ (or in the way ‘engineer’ is set apart from ‘warrior’ or ‘guardian’ as a role). Hence my initial comment that you are misinterpreting ‘role’. You’re arguing against something you think someone suggested, without realizing you’re talking about a completely different concept.

EDIT: and misinterpreting is not the same word as misrepresenting, by the way.

coglin.1496:

As far as you weird and out of left field comment
“What exactly are you expecting him to take away from you?”
Well I am not sure what what odd logic your using to even bring this question into play, so for the sake of common sense, I will by pass it all together.

It’s very simple: you’re complaining that the OP wants to limit the way you play. I want to know what about his suggestion you find limiting. Of course, to know that you’d have to read it.

coglin.1496:

As far as your reference to the “entire point” the OP is trying to make, It is irrelevant. That was my entire point. My determination not to read it is my prerogative. I do not need your permission to have my opinion, thanks.
The Op very literally stated that specific roles belong to specific classes. That is not true in actual game play, it is not true in developer philosophy, and it is not true factually. Why you are so adamantly defending pigeon holing classes and pushing the idea that you have to play a certain class to do a certain job or fill a certain role in beyond me, as well it is beyond the ideology of the game itself.

I’m not defending it, because it’s not happening. I’m pointing out to you that you’ve misunderstood what someone was talking about and decided based on your misunderstanding that they’re telling you what you can and can’t do. Which they’re not. Specific ‘roles’ in the stylistic sense that the OP gave examples of are absolutely given to different classes. Without that kind of role, there wouldn’t be any need for different classes. Think of it as being the character’s lore-based ‘function’ or something. A warrior’s role is a heavily armoured guy with lots of physical skills. An elementalist’s role is a more academic type who wears light protection and uses magic. Engineers have a lot of steampunk aesthetics and use a lot of chemistry for their skills (elixirs, explosives, etc), hence the OP’s description of their role.

This is honestly not a hard concept.

LameFox.6349:

I’m not defending it, because it’s not happening.

Yes you are, and yes it is. I quoted very specifically where it did. You seem to be completely confused as to what role even means, and have attempted, repeatedly to convince us that concept and style mean the same thing as “role”. it is factual inaccurate.

Themes and styles have nothing to do with roles. You very specifically mention the role of burst damage. Burst damage is a “role” any class can fulfill, that is a fact. How they fullfil that role is there theme or style.

Here is some of your issue right here. Your inaccurately claim:

You’ve assumed that the ‘patience’ in his description refers to something that is contrary to burst damage.

Which is oddly incorrect. I never assumed anything even close to that. I specifically clarified this multiple times to you. You must have misread something in an earlier post and you continue to push “what you assumed I meant” at me as my opinion.
Thanks but no thanks, You appear to be confused as to how this works, but I will tell you my opinion, that is how it works. You will not sit here and put words in my mouth and tell me what I meant. Especially when I quote it in very specific words to you, and you still claim the exact opposite.

No, I very well understood that your claiming that he meant burst damage. I will tell you for the third time, that if you think engineers cannot fill a burst damage role, that you are not very knowledgeable of the class to say that. Secondly, I very specifically quoted where he stated that was for thieves and warriors.

Let me break it down for you

He said “patient killer” can only belong to Warrior / Thief

You very specifically claim he means “burst damage” by saying “patient killer”

There fore you are claiming he is claiming that only warrior/thief can fill the role of burst damage, and you keep arguing for his point.

I am telling you, if anyone thinks only those 2 classes can fill the role of burst damage, that they are extremely ignorant of all the other classes abilities.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/role
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/role

This word is not nearly as narrow as you seem to think it is. There’s no reason at all that something like ‘soldier’ or ‘chemist’ can’t be called a role.

Anyway, this is clearly pointless. Trying to explain to someone who won’t read a post that the post isn’t making the argument they assumed it was based on their overly narrow understanding of a word is just doomed to endless repetition. Enjoy your whatever-it-is-you-do; I’m going to sleep sometime before the sun rises.

EDIT: you actually used ‘bursty’ in opposition to ‘patient killer’:

Hard to take anyone seriously who calls the most bursty fast killing class in the game the “patent killer”

…this is exactly why there’s no point going on.

LameFox.6349:

EDIT: you actually used ‘bursty’ in opposition to ‘patient killer’:

Again you show a massive issue in comprehension. At what point did I claim those two were contradictory meaning? Again you make weird and inaccurate assumption and attempt to tell me what I meant. I simply point out that I felt the term “patient” isn’t exactly a synonymous word to go with burst damage and fast kills. Just because I question his choice if adjectives you assume to tell me I meant something entirely different.

Especially when you have such difficulty grasping the meaning of the term “role”. Particularly in the context that it is used in MMOs.

coglin.1496:

Hard to take anyone seriously who calls the most bursty fast killing class in the game the “patent killer” Last time I checked, spamming pistol whip and heart seeker on the initiative system isn’t patient at all.

There it is (again). Insert the lost letter ‘i’ with your imagination.

*Facepalms to unconsciousness

Huh? Are you suggesting burning through initiative while spamming pistol whip and heart seeker is “patient” ?

Scope & Rope
Utility Skill
Recharge: 25s

Attach a spyglass to your rifle. For 10 seconds all of your rifle skills have double range.

coglin.1496:

Huh? Are you suggesting burning through initiative while spamming pistol whip and heart seeker is “patient” ?

Using a series of skills is neither patient nor impatient. Using burst damage effectively does benefit from patience, because if you mess it up you lose a lot more of your potential than someone with a fairly consistent damage output. Using evasion instead of tanking is much the same. If you’re over-eager with it, you’ll have issues when the time comes that you should be using it, but you already have (issues like death, for example).

Zonzai.2341:

Scope & Rope
Utility Skill
Recharge: 25s

Attach a spyglass to your rifle. For 10 seconds all of your rifle skills have double range.

I find this idea intriguing – but why ‘rope’?

Coglin, if you don’t like the into to this thread; fine. If it offends you to such a degree that you wish to stop reading and not contribute to the discussion; fine. But please don’t derail the thread with an off topic rant.

This thread is not about the role of the engineer. This thread is not about burst damage, or how burst damage applies to the concept of patience.

This thread is about the Steam Cannon. If you wish to discuss the Steam Cannon, please read the OP (feel free to skip the intro) and offer your input. If you don’t wish to discuss the Steam Cannon, please don’t make any more posts in this thread.

LameFox.6349:

^are you sure that’s not a weird mortar itself? It does look pretty nice though. I wouldn’t mind having one of those as a kit or something, just as long as it wasn’t a weak ‘elite’ skill with a six year cooldown like the mortar (and most elites in general).

Not sure if it’s a mortar… haven’t seen it in action.

Wouldn’t have to use that exact model, either, but a modified version would do just fine.