Suggestion: Turret Engineer Changes

Suggestion: Turret Engineer Changes

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Posted by: MiniEquine.6014

MiniEquine.6014

The community has spoken and Anet listened. Here are some suggestions I have that might positively affect the engineer turrets.

The primary thought process with what needs to be done with turrets is getting rid of the AI aspect of them and making them skillful to play and fair to play against. A turret, with these proposed changes, would act more like an extension of your weapon instead of like a pet. Engineers do not get a second weapon set because they have kits. When an engineer does not use any kits, they have significantly fewer options than any other class. The key with this post is to not only make the turret engineer build viable and fair in PvP, but also a build that functions well during PvE and WvW content.

1. Turrets will no longer have an auto-attack
a. Turret abilities will be treated as an additional weapon skill.
b. I will elaborate on potential turret abilities in the second section.

2. Turrets will detonate after the engineer moves 2000 units away
a. Turrets will no longer remotely detonate, but they can still be picked up and would still explode when destroyed (triggering APT)
b. I don’t believe the intent for turrets was to place them and immediately detonate them for a blast finisher. The idea is to make it that you wouldn’t want to do that.
c. The range is needed not only because being able to run across the world and have your turret fight is silly, but also because turrets will need your target to attack, and that is not possible if you are too far away.

3. Turret placement will be ground-targeting as a baseline
a. Ground-targeting is seen as both a pro and a con, but it is useful for strategic placement, which turret engineers always need to consider to be effective
b. This would fall in-line with the upcoming Necromancer well changes

4. Turret placement will be instant (Currently cast time is .5 sec)
a. The floating turrets need to be addressed and this should solve that issue. The alternative is making the cast time ~2 seconds (would this be better, constructing the turret? Please discuss this)

5. Turret damage will scale with the stats that the engineer currently has
a. This damage will adjust in real time as the stats change
b. Treating these new turrets as part of the weapon the engineer has means they are only activating when you tell them to and at what. That makes them like any other damaging utility skill, at least in that regard
c. This would include any food buffs, boons, etc. The numbers would need to be adjusted accordingly

6. Turrets will no longer receive conditions or critical hits, but now they can critically hit
a. This change would seem counter-intuitive to the whole rework, but only if you consider turrets as they are right now.
b. Since all turrets would be activated by the player (no auto-attacks) there would be less concern for having them survive while you get downed and the engineer is halfway across the map (even though they would be detonated by this point with these new changes)
c. Any reflects or retaliation effects triggered by the turrets will affect the turrets

Suggestion: Turret Engineer Changes

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Posted by: MiniEquine.6014

MiniEquine.6014

Individual Turret Changes

Above are the things that should be done to turrets in general. Here are some examples of changes that would make sense for individual turrets. Keep in mind, turrets would no longer have auto-attacks. All turrets would currently retain all of the health they have, as well as the tool belt skills when the turret is stowed or on CD.

1. Rifle Turret
a. Placement CD: 20 sec (same)
b. Activation: Remote Rifle Shot
i. CD: 6 sec (formerly 2 sec rate of fire at 476 damage per shot)
ii. Damage: 1000
iii. Attack Range: 1000
iv. Projectile Finisher (20% chance)
c. Tool Belt Activation: Remote Snipe
i. CD: 15 sec
ii. Cast Time: 1.5 sec
iii. Damage: 2000
iv. Attack Range: 1500
v. Projectile Finisher (100% chance)

2. Flame Turret
a. Placement CD: 25 sec (same)
b. Activation: Remote Flamethrower
i. CD: 7.5 sec
ii. Damage: 300
iii. Burning: 2 sec (650 damage)
iv. Attack Range: 500
c. Tool Belt Activation: Remote Smoke Screen (same)
i. CD: 30 sec
ii. Cast Time: Instant
iii. Damage: 0
iv. Attack Range: 240 radius
v. Duration: 5 sec
vi. Number of Targets: 5
vii. Combo Field: Smoke

3. Net Turret (largely unchanged)
a. Placement CD: 30 sec (same)
b. Activation: Remote Net Shot
i. CD: 10 sec (formerly 10 sec rate of fire)
ii. Attack Range: 600
iii. Immobilized: 2 sec
c. Tool Belt Activation: Remote Electrified Net (same)
i. CD: 30 sec
ii. Damage: 325 (formerly 318)
iii. Attack Range: 600
iv. Immobilized: 3 sec
v. Stun: 2 sec

4. Rocket Turret
a. Placement CD: 50 sec (same)
b. Activation: Remote Rocket
i. CD: 10 sec (formerly 4 sec rate of fire at 1429 damage per shot)
ii. Damage: 2000
iii. Attack Range: 1000
iv. Number of Targets: 5
v. Radius: 240
vi. Blast Finisher
c. Tool Belt Activation: Remote Missile (higher speed, no arc)
i. CD: 25 sec (formerly 20 sec)
ii. Damage: 2500
iii. Attack Range: 1500
iv. Number of Targets: 5
v. Radius: 360
vi. Blast Finisher

5. Thumper Turret (largely unchanged)
a. Placement CD: 20 sec (same)
b. Activation: Remote Rumble
i. CD: 5 sec (formerly 3 sec rate of fire at 635 damage per shot)
ii. Damage: 1000
iii. Crippled: 3 sec
iv. Number of Targets: 5
v. Radius: 240
c. Tool Belt Activation: Remote Thump
i. CD: 30 sec
ii. Damage: 1000
iii. Blowout: 400
iv. Number of Targets: 5
v. Radius: 240
vi. Blast Finisher

6. Healing Turret
a. Placement CD: 20 sec (same)
b. Activation: Remote Healing Burst
i. Ground-targeting
ii. CD: 5 sec
iii. Healing: 1000 (no initial heal)
iv. Regeneration: 2 sec (200 health)
v. Number of Targets: 5
vi. Radius: 240
c. Tool Belt Activation: Remote Cleansing Burst
i. CD: 15 sec
ii. Healing: 2500
iii. Regeneration: 5 sec (500 health)
iv. Conditions Removed: 2
v. Number of Targets: 5
vi. Radius: 480
vii. Combo Field: Water

7. Supply Crate (Gatling Gun, 6 Bandages, 1 Antidote, 1 Stimulant)
a. Placement CD: 180 sec (same)
i. Ground-targeting
ii. Cast Time: 1 sec
iii. Damage: 250 (formerly 246)
iv. Stun: 2 s
v. Number of Targets: 5
vi. Duration: 60 s
vii. Radius: 240
viii. Blast Finisher
ix. Range: 1200
b. Activation: Remote Rapid Fire
i. CD: 10 sec
ii. Channel Time: 5 sec (can move while channeling)
iii. Damage (25x): 200 (5000)
iv. Attacks per Second: 5
v. Projectile Finisher (5% chance)
c. Tool Belt Activation: Remote Vulcan Fire (We will have this soon!)
i. Channel Time: 5 sec (can move while channeling)
ii. Damage (50x): 150 (5000)
iii. Attacks per Second: 10
iv. Projectile Finisher (5% chance)
v. Gatling Gun explodes when the channel ends (does not do this when destroyed)
vi. Damage: 1000
vii. Blowout: 400
viii. Burning: 3 sec (750)
ix. Number of Targets: 5
x. Radius: 360
xi. Blast Finisher

TL;DR: Turrets have not been useable in PvE or WvW at all. People complain about them in PvP, which has led to them getting a nerf (even if they are still effective against poorly-skilled players). I’m just hoping to start a discussion about what needs to be done to make our primary heal, 5 of our utilities, and our primary elite somewhat reasonable.

Suggestion: Turret Engineer Changes

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Posted by: Arantheal.7396

Arantheal.7396

Your changes are horrible, and here is why:

You are trying to make skills “reasonalbe” that are already “beyond good”, by doing nothing but nerfing them into the ground.
Healing turret would be a joke of a heals since it’s nothing but a big KILL ME sign for anyone who wants to mess up our healing-option.
You also miss the fact that the bandages from supply-crate are 1 of the 3 main reasons to pick up this elite, which you simply deleted.
The 2nd are the 3 small low-health turrets which are meant to blow up for the cc’s they bring in that moment, so all that is left is the 2-second stun, since frankly your big rapid fire turret will die faster than 10sec it takes for it to get its dmg trough, epsecially if you face a mesmer or guardian who’d faceroll this elite with a big, satisfied smile.

And the change to the rifle turret would even costs it its last factor that made it decent: a low-cd belt-ability for s/d builds.

honestly, your changes do nothing for turreteers and kitten up the few remaining aspects that made skillful play possible with some turrets.

A big “NO, TY” from me.

Engineer is love, Engineer is life.

Suggestion: Turret Engineer Changes

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Posted by: Siks.1978

Siks.1978

I would to be able to pick a turret up, hold it on my hands and place it elsewhere to avoid triggering the cooldown

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Suggestion: Turret Engineer Changes

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

As I see it, there aren’t many places this conversation can go until we have some HoT betas to see how they are changing turrets. That would likely make this a different discussion entirely anyway.

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

Suggestion: Turret Engineer Changes

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Posted by: Gern.2978

Gern.2978

OP, your changes completely reverse course, and bring us right back to the overpowered state that turrets were in before. Actually more so, since you want turrets to be able to crit, but not be critted or affected by conditions. Wouldn’t a more logical fix be to just buff their base health a bit?

Hi, my name is Gern, and I’m an altoholic….

Suggestion: Turret Engineer Changes

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Posted by: MiniEquine.6014

MiniEquine.6014

Your changes are horrible, and here is why:

You are trying to make skills “reasonalbe” that are already “beyond good”, by doing nothing but nerfing them into the ground.
Healing turret would be a joke of a heals since it’s nothing but a big KILL ME sign for anyone who wants to mess up our healing-option.
You also miss the fact that the bandages from supply-crate are 1 of the 3 main reasons to pick up this elite, which you simply deleted.
The 2nd are the 3 small low-health turrets which are meant to blow up for the cc’s they bring in that moment, so all that is left is the 2-second stun, since frankly your big rapid fire turret will die faster than 10sec it takes for it to get its dmg trough, epsecially if you face a mesmer or guardian who’d faceroll this elite with a big, satisfied smile.

And the change to the rifle turret would even costs it its last factor that made it decent: a low-cd belt-ability for s/d builds.

honestly, your changes do nothing for turreteers and kitten up the few remaining aspects that made skillful play possible with some turrets.

A big “NO, TY” from me.

I kept the bandages in the supply crate. Honestly, I put 6 in there instead of 3, as well as an antidote and a stimulant pack.

The turret skills are not “beyond good” as they are right now, because they are literally worthless in a PvE and WvW context. They were only ever good in sPvP because of the game mode itself encouraging tanky bunker builds. In TDM, it was not wise to bring too many turrets because the enemy team could just stay away from them, unlike in Conquest.

Unfortunately, we’re still left with a less than desirable set of options for a good chunk of our utilities. There has got to be a change that would both make it reasonable to pick but also not be something that people can complain about.

Suggestion: Turret Engineer Changes

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Posted by: MiniEquine.6014

MiniEquine.6014

OP, your changes completely reverse course, and bring us right back to the overpowered state that turrets were in before. Actually more so, since you want turrets to be able to crit, but not be critted or affected by conditions. Wouldn’t a more logical fix be to just buff their base health a bit?

The responses to this post are interesting. The first person said that these changes would nerf turrets further into the ground, and you’re saying it would make them OP. :P

The only reason why turrets not being able to be crit on or have conditions applied to them was an issue was because they essentially had a mind of their own, like a pet. These changes I listed above wouldn’t make them like a pet at all; more like a part of your main-hand weapon that you drop on the ground somewhere and attacks from that location, but only when you tell it to attack and only what you are targeting at the time.

Suggestion: Turret Engineer Changes

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Posted by: runeblade.7514

runeblade.7514

How is this PvE/WvW friendly?

Your turret suggestion still have a healthbar and a range requirement.

5x Warrior, 5x Ranger, 4x Elementalist, 4x Engineer,
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant

Suggestion: Turret Engineer Changes

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Posted by: MiniEquine.6014

MiniEquine.6014

How is this PvE/WvW friendly?

Your turret suggestion still have a healthbar and a range requirement.

The numbers would need to be tweaked, but before the patch their health was hardly ever an issue in PvE. I could take on Champion creatures with a full set of turrets and win, sometimes without losing turrets. The only issue is that they provided little extra, since their damage did not scale with anything, so they were not very useful in dungeons and completely useless in WvW.

However, I saw your post. I actually like the concept you have of making them 5 sec duration invulnerable utility skills. That’s a change that I think many people can definitely get behind. I won’t get rid of this post though, for the sake of discussion, but I do like what you have in mind.

Suggestion: Turret Engineer Changes

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Posted by: Arantheal.7396

Arantheal.7396

Dude, when I said our turret skills were beyond good I meant the specific 2 that most engi-builds run:
supply-crate and healing turret.
What you wanna change about the other turrets is seriously none of my my interest since apart from s/d builds + rifle turret, no one really cared about turrets with the exception of people who were
a) new to the class and do not understand what options it actually delivers
b) people with bad connections who simply not had the ping to make use of said options. Designing a skill around lag is not a good idea.
c) people who are too lazy to learn the class, and rather jump on the hype-train of popular builds, instead of back-checking if their way to play the class were optimal or not.

Turrets are not fun since they leave you as tanky dud with a healthbar between them.
Turrets – by design – forbid skillful play because they have nothing but a on/off switch (including those of your changes) and leave you with less and less mobility / utility / dmg / survivability the more turrets you choose (exception: healing turret / supply-crate).
If anything, turrets have a troll factor in WvW when defenders arrive in a tagged tower to find nothing but a rifle / rocket-turret up on the wall and their siege gone. Beyond that, turrets only serve very specific niche-rolles in rather unpopular builds, which is totally ok for me.
Turrets are viable for their purpose. You didn’t redefine their purpose, you just changed their skills and pick-up mechanic a bit and took out the AA.

TL;DR:
- Turrets are viable in WvW to be thrown on walls and used as siege-clearer.
- Turrets are viable in PvE – especially fractals – as perma-reflect option and buff-beacon. It is indeed possible to circumvent a whole fractal instability by letting nothing but the turrets attack.
- Your changes did nothing to increase their range of viability
- Your changes are drive-by nerfs to healing turret and supply-crate, the only 2 “beyond good” turret skills we have
- Hence your changes are bad.

Engineer is love, Engineer is life.