Guild Wars 2

Taugrim has finally decided to check out the engineer finding what most of us have known for quite some time: the engineer is really only played right in the hands of an experienced player.

“My point here is that the design of the Engineer class creates a unique learning curve from a control perspective. This creates an unnecessary hurdle to player performance – it’s going to be harder for players to get comfortable with Engy compared to other classes. "

See: http://taugrim.com/category/game-title/guild-wars-2/

He also suggests the following, which I COMPLETELY agree with:

“However, for UI design consistency I would have preferred to see kits slotted on the profession bar, similar to attunements for Elementalists”

I made this suggestion back in BWE2, and unfortunately it fell on deaf ears. As for the toolbelt skills, add them to the utility selections.

I don’t know about any of you but it certainly would be nice to be able to have access to all of our kits, as every single one of them has at least one ability that would turn the tide, and give us the versatility would currently lack.

This one simple change would be a fantastic step in the right direction imo.

It’d be pretty wrong to ask to be exactly like elementalists but just better (lack of cooldown and sudden change in skill range) imo, but I’d surely find myself more comfortable if I was able to completely edit the skillbar’s layout and UI (even the numbered slot for easier access to kits at times), however after this much time playing the engineer I don’t think it’s a problem.

Not everyone would be happy. One example would be the famous elixir/HGH build. I personally would benefit from such a change. But as said not everyone is on the same boat, as not everyone uses kits.

Rfreak.6591:

It’d be pretty wrong to ask to be exactly like elementalists but just better (lack of cooldown and sudden change in skill range) imo, but I’d surely find myself more comfortable if I was able to completely edit the skillbar’s layout and UI (even the numbered slot for easier access to kits at times), however after this much time playing the engineer I don’t think it’s a problem.

I’d be fine with a cooldown on kits so long as you could spec to reduce it.

MrSilver.5269:

Rfreak.6591:

It’d be pretty wrong to ask to be exactly like elementalists but just better (lack of cooldown and sudden change in skill range) imo, but I’d surely find myself more comfortable if I was able to completely edit the skillbar’s layout and UI (even the numbered slot for easier access to kits at times), however after this much time playing the engineer I don’t think it’s a problem.

I’d be fine with a cooldown on kits so long as you could spec to reduce it.

The real issue is that Anet wouldn’t want 2 professions to have very similar playstyles.

MrSilver.5269:

Rfreak.6591:

It’d be pretty wrong to ask to be exactly like elementalists but just better (lack of cooldown and sudden change in skill range) imo, but I’d surely find myself more comfortable if I was able to completely edit the skillbar’s layout and UI (even the numbered slot for easier access to kits at times), however after this much time playing the engineer I don’t think it’s a problem.

I’d be fine with a cooldown on kits so long as you could spec to reduce it.

I wouldn’t be fine with that.
Instant swapping is the bread and butter of my engineer. With cooldowns my engineer wouldn’t be worth it in terms of fun.

And specc for it?
I don’t have enough trait points to specc for any versatile build as it is, I really don’t want any other feature limiting my trait choice even more.

Just to say we’re not all accepting the same changes, so be carefull what you ask for.
Others might have different views on what is needed.

As it stands now, tool kit is pretty much the only one that’s actually useful without speccing heavily into it. The change proposed by Taugrim would likely make the situation worse unless it’s accompanied by a substantial revamp of the kits themselves.

My only real problem is, I like the way kits and my tool belt work as is. The only problem I have with the Engineer is that some weapon skills, traits, and utilities are gunk and need to be fixed and/or boosted. Basically, I want there to be more viable stuff. This is an issue most professions have, even it the Engi may have it a little worse then most.

That said we have a lot more viable stuff then the general community seems to realize. We need work of course, but a lot of stuff is overstated as horrible when it’s not. I don’t want core mechanic changes, I like it how it plays already.

the whole point of the tool belt is to recover the lost utility slot taken by the kit. kit tool belt skills are on par (more or less) with other gadget utilities, while non-kit tool belt skills are less powerful to help maintain balance.

whether this is achieved in game or not, or whether the tool belt skills are working as untended or not is irrelevant because the tool belt and kit skills are the major framework of the class and are (for better or for worse) a well designed mechanic that makes engineers so fun and frenetic to play.

yes, certain skills and abilities perform below standard, certain combinations don’t work because of bugs in some skills, but this does not mean that our profession defining mechanic needs to change.

Taugrim is a very eloquent and soft spoken game critic who I respect for his ability to not sound like many of us on the forums (myself included at times), but that doesnt make him a clever or proficient game designer. Just because he said something doesnt validate anyone’s opinion but his own. that is the rub of being a critic.

i am quite comfortable with engineer having a steep learning curve, it is bug fixes which will make the class more accessible to new players, not a redesign of the class.

you dont have to like it, but IMO, if you dont like the mechanic, and want kits to be Fskills, go play an elementalist.

/2p

1) You say to make kits F1-F4. There are 5 kits (6 including the heal kit, but we can ignore that for this discussion I guess) 3 weapon kits (Flamethrower, Elixir Gun and Tool Kit) and 2 device kits (Bomb Kit and Grenade Kit)

2) I think at this point a lot of engineers are used to the extra utilities and the loss of the 2 heal abilities and 6 utility abilities would be devastating for a lot of builds.

3) Not having tool belt skills would require a brand new class stat (It’d probably be something like a reduced cooldown on kit swapping to be boring and even more wannabe elementalist)

4) A few builds rely heavily on the tool belt skills (I know the Engie build I have the most fun with uses tool belt skills more than my weapon skills) while others still utilize them (Even if the primary choice of utility is for the utility, the toolbelt skills can come in handy)

Making the Engineer an Elementalist clone will not fix the profession. I still think unlinking the toolbelt skills from the utilities is a better way to improve our versatility.

“Toolbelt” gives me a specific flavor of skill. It has to be something you can fluff as being small/portable within suspension of disbelief. If you were slotting them in standard utility slots, you wouldn’t be limited to something that can fit on your belt. I guess our toolbelt skills don’t always make sense in that context, though.

Unlinking means that, even if we take a kit, we still have a form of utility skill to call on, as opposed to now where each kit is effectively a 6 skill weapon.

Putting the kits on the F slot just makes us Elementalists of another color, especially if you start tossing around cooldowns and cooldown reduction. We already have a profession that gives us that playstyle (It’s the Elementalist). I prefer discussion of Engineer to be focused on its capability in comparison to all the other professions, instead of just the profession it would then imitate, the Elementalist. This way we can stay focused on the important issue, like why some classes are so common/perceived as so powerful in certain areas, and why we (the other professions) aren’t. While I admit to not being the most experienced player, Taugrim’s article gives me the impression he hasn’t got much experience with Engineer. Consistency between UIs is… a laudable desire in most areas, but, with all the varying ways that profession mechanics are utilized in this game, it’s not particularly useful in this application. Furthermore, tossing kits on F1 keys and moving toolbelt skills to additional utilities forces all Engineers to take 4 kits. This decreases the number of builds available and reduces our overall ability to specialize in certain tasks. It’s also much more likely to levy an additional hybrid tax on us while bottlenecking our playstyle.

engineer would be the strongest class by far if kits were placed on our tool-belt. We would have our weapon skills our kits skills and still all our utilities to place gadgets and elixirs…. It would not play like ele either unless u changed all weapon options because as it stands now the weapon choices for ele dictate what each attunement offers . I don’t want my weapon abilities messed with depending what kit we are attuned too.
Engineer just needs some minor tweaking from traits nothing more.
As for it feeling clunky an awkward……I don’t really get that feeling to be honest. It may be because i started out as engi before trying any other classes and i actually feel it plays rather smooth but perhaps that’s just me

I would rather have good, solid kits on F1 and F2 than a wreckage of mostly mediocre skills cluttering up F1-F4 and 7-9.

Having a normal skill like Oil boots give two skills makes them really hard to balance. Instead of giving a solid utility and a bonus toolkit skill it feels like they give out two mediocre abilities.

Kyon.9735:

The real issue is that Anet wouldn’t want 2 professions to have very similar playstyles.

Ding ding ding winner!

All professions are meant to have a unique mechanic. ArenaNet will NOT make Engineers F1-F4 work like Elementalists.

Mif.3471:

Kyon.9735:

The real issue is that Anet wouldn’t want 2 professions to have very similar playstyles.

Ding ding ding winner!

All professions are meant to have a unique mechanic. ArenaNet will NOT make Engineers F1-F4 work like Elementalists.

It wouldn’t be the same mechanic because it wouldn’t be dependent on the normal weapons you have equipped.

Besides, Necros already have a stance on F1 as well.

What an odd and useless request. An experienced player knows about hotkeys and can set up his kits where he wants.

It isn’t just about the binds.

Please read the thread more closely.

hmm… no, I think it is about the keybinds. I just read the critic’s blogpost and it seems like his only issue is with the layout, which is a non-issue because you have a different layout for each class. He never once mentioned the issue people have actually had problems with, which is missing out on utilities if you get kits.

I’ve actually been playing an elementalist recently, and I’m enjoying it greatly. I do find it overpowered in comparison to the engineer (look at all these useful skills! I don’t see any fluff like on my engi), but that may be the engineer being subpar at the moment. That being said, I don’t prefer the elementalist and I find my engineer to be much more fun and interesting.

Something I read on these forums comes to mind.

“The elementalist is versatile because one of it’s builds can do a lot of things, the engineer is versatile because it has many builds for the same thing”

The former is more useful for groups and effective when mastered. The novelty the later provides makes it much more fun.

The problem with putting kits into F1-F4, is that now your utilities will have the toolbet skills. If thats the proposed change, then the toolbelt skills for those kits would NEED to be beefed up, because frankly they are not utility worthy as they stand, not at all.

If I wanted to play an Elementalist, I would. In fact, I have one made for just such an occasion. If I want to play my Engineer, I play my Engineer.
I might not particularly like Kits, or think the current interpretation of the Toolbelt is what it should be, but I’m of the opinion that turning Kits into Toolbelt skills would be a bad idea, mostly as it would involve removing the Toolbelt entirely. With some builds revolving around it, some Toolbelt skills actually being worth using, and the aforementioned similarities to the Elementalist, I just don’t think this would be a good idea.

My thoughts on how to handle Kits and the Toolbelt: Give Engineers a secondary weapon slot, which can only have a kit put into it (while also leaving Kits as Utility skills), at level 7. (Perhaps grant an Engineer’s Kit as a placeholder/freebie, with a special example or two each of Gadget, Turret and Elixir skills, balanced along the lines of the other Kits.)
Unlink Toolbelt skills from Utility skills, allowing the Engineer to arrange whichever set of skills they felt optimal (with them still being overridden by Turret Detonation skills when turrets are deployed).

Suddenly, every Engineer (after level 7) will have a Kit, and the Toolbelt becomes interesting. No idea if these are particularly good ideas, but they’re at least not going to remove chunks of the class.

Maketso.5602:

The problem with putting kits into F1-F4, is that now your utilities will have the toolbet skills. If thats the proposed change, then the toolbelt skills for those kits would NEED to be beefed up, because frankly they are not utility worthy as they stand, not at all.

That is more of the point than the problem.

Right now most utilities are two mediocre abilities, or a kit and a mediocre ability.

If they remove the tool belt they could give us one good solid ability instead of two poor ones. It would also eliminate not wanting to take a kit because the the tool belt ability is poor, or wanting to have a kit just for the tool belt.

Or they could actually make all abilities solid and come up with a way to balance it regardless.

It is hard to balance a class with 8 solid at will abilities against most classes with 4.

One of the main limiting factors in this game is cooldowns. Having twice as many as people, usable at all times would wipe the floor with most classes.

what we need is for kits to be a F7-F9 system.

Why is no one thinking outside the box? Instead of making kits replacing weapon slot, they should replace the utility slot once equipped, and put them on our F1-F4. You can still get your hand picked utility skill once you unequip the kits.

Most of our kits belong to the “Utility” and “Unarmed” category anyway. The only exception is the Elixir Gun and Flamethrower.

I can already see the possibilities we could do with this change. For examples:
An engineer running 3 turret build, after putting them down on the field, he would equip the tool kit, using the kit to heal his turret while shooting his enemy with the rifle or pistol simultaneously.

Example kit:
Grenade Kit
- Utility 1: Shrapnel Grenade: Both bleed and cripples enemies. 25 Sec.
- Utility 2: Frostbite Grenade: A combination of Freeze and Flashbang grenade. 45 Sec.
- Utility 3: Grenade Barrage, 60 Sec.

Tool Kit
- Utility 1: Throw Wrench. 25 Sec
- Utility 2: Prybar. 35 Sec.
- Utility 3: Gear Shield: Block all attacks AND heal all nearby turrets for 4 seconds. 45 Sec.

tigirius.9014:

what we need is for kits to be a F7-F9 system.

QFT

I for one disagree with this, it would take a way a fun element of the Engi and force an aspect of gameplay that not everyone wants. There’s also significant balance issues as previous posters have said.

However, something does need to be done. I prefer the suggestion of having a kit-only weapon slot. We’d lose the toolbelt skill for the kit, but still have it’s main abilities. This would bring us up to par with most classes in number of weapon skills, without outdoing elementalist. To me it seem only fair. Right now we have to sacrifice a utility slot to gain a second weapon. Something no other class has to do and even then we still have few abilities at our dipsosal than elementalist and we’re the only class to have nerfed damage for the pleasure. Players who want to have several kits could still do so using utility slots as they do now, so it wouldn’t affect them, well it would, it would give them an extra slot to play with and people who refuse to use kits could ignore it, or use it to learn the advantage they offer.

Win/win situation.

MrSilver.5269:

Taugrim has finally decided to check out the engineer finding what most of us have known for quite some time: the engineer is really only played right in the hands of an experienced player.

“My point here is that the design of the Engineer class creates a unique learning curve from a control perspective. This creates an unnecessary hurdle to player performance – it’s going to be harder for players to get comfortable with Engy compared to other classes. "

See: http://taugrim.com/category/game-title/guild-wars-2/

He also suggests the following, which I COMPLETELY agree with:

“However, for UI design consistency I would have preferred to see kits slotted on the profession bar, similar to attunements for Elementalists”

I made this suggestion back in BWE2, and unfortunately it fell on deaf ears. As for the toolbelt skills, add them to the utility selections.

I don’t know about any of you but it certainly would be nice to be able to have access to all of our kits, as every single one of them has at least one ability that would turn the tide, and give us the versatility would currently lack.

This one simple change would be a fantastic step in the right direction imo.

Don’t wanna. I want Toolbelt to stay exactly where it is the way it is.

Kits just need to be more useful/skills revamped

especially since what keys they are bound to is irrelevant.

Not every engineer uses (nor wants to use) kits. This basically forces kits on everybody.

the engineer is about the kits. still, there are viable builds for pistols, turrets, and elixers you dont have to use kits, but (to maintain thread cohesion) why not play an ele without attunements? just use skills!

fun kitten

(edit, lol kitten is censored! thats kitten funny.)

It sounds like he just wants kits mapped to F1-F4, not actually a change in mechanic. He said he likes “the idea of having multiple kits to slot, but I don’t like the design of the controls.” As people have pointed out, automatically giving the engi four kits would make us exactly like the ele in terms of mechanics.

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. You could just reverse the keymapping—change the default 6-9 keybinds to F1-F4, and change the toolbelt skills to 6-9. That way, instead of having skills “hidden” in the utility buttons, they’d be “hidden” in the profession mechanic buttons.

Anet can not even staff enough coders to fix bugs. And let’s not even mention the tool tip errors across the game. How in hell would anyone ever think they could redo a class.