Guild Wars 2

coglin.1496:

Anymras.5729:

We could also use an option for fighting enemies with Reflects or Absorbs Projectiles that doesn’t involve the use of a kit. As it is, we’re the only class that doesn’t have an option in that regard without using a Utility slot just to get around it. (c’mooon, hammer)

Are you saying we do not have the option to reflect or absorb projectiles?

Or are you saying we do not have a counter for that?

Saying we don’t have a non-Utility counter for it. Every other class can equip a melee weapon, or has attacks that just don’t count as projectiles, while we have to use a Utility slot for the same effect.

Anymras.5729:

coglin.1496:

Anymras.5729:

We could also use an option for fighting enemies with Reflects or Absorbs Projectiles that doesn’t involve the use of a kit. As it is, we’re the only class that doesn’t have an option in that regard without using a Utility slot just to get around it. (c’mooon, hammer)

Are you saying we do not have the option to reflect or absorb projectiles?

Or are you saying we do not have a counter for that?

Saying we don’t have a non-Utility counter for it. Every other class can equip a melee weapon, or has attacks that just don’t count as projectiles, while we have to use a Utility slot for the same effect.

Don’t other classes (except elementalist) have to use a utility slot to have reflect projectiles? I’d call it even that we take a utility slot to avoid it

Thats not true at all. With my shield I can reflect or block attacks myself, while stuning any attack one me. You do realize if they attack me with a hammer, shield skill #5 stuns them right? and I can do an AoE knock back with shield skill #4.

With those two skills, there is literally nothing I cannot counter in this game.

coglin.1496:

Goloith.6349:

They need to make p/p damage more condition based. So increase condition, lower damage.

More condition based? How so? Every weapons skill except for Glue Shot is extremely condition based.

Yes they are, but the condition damage needs to be much higher. People running p/p are rolling condition damage to begin with (unless for just sigils). If this means giving up damage for condition damage that’s fine.

coglin.1496:

Thats not true at all. With my shield I can reflect or block attacks myself, while stuning any attack one me. You do realize if they attack me with a hammer, shield skill #5 stuns them right? and I can do an AoE knock back with shield skill #4.

With those two skills, there is literally nothing I cannot counter in this game.

I think you misunderstand the point. The point is, if something, or somebody, puts up a Reflect/Absorb/Destroy Projectiles bubble/field/etcetera, we have no non-Utility way to continue to deal damage to them like every other class can, due to having no dedicated melee weapon.

Any weapon skill we have that might possibly not count as a projectile (some of the Rifle’s skills, perhaps Blowtorch on P/P) also has a cooldown, leaving us incapable of continuing to deal damage after an initial rush of, at most, three attacks (Jump Shot, Blunderbuss, Overcharge, if the second two somehow don’t count as projectiles).

@JohnDied: I wouldn’t.

Goloith.6349:

coglin.1496:

Goloith.6349:

They need to make p/p damage more condition based. So increase condition, lower damage.

More condition based? How so? Every weapons skill except for Glue Shot is extremely condition based.

Yes they are, but the condition damage needs to be much higher. People running p/p are rolling condition damage to begin with (unless for just sigils). If this means giving up damage for condition damage that’s fine.

The pistol #1 already does half the damage of rifle. A better option would be to take the aoe away and replace it with another two seconds of bleed.

My thoughts on engineer changes:

I use to think that kits needed a rework with how they work in line with the toolbelt, however I have since changed my mind. The primary issues I have are with boons and damage. Some changes I would suggest:

• More finishers from our basic weapons, not a lot, just a few: Blunderbuss could be a blast finisher and poison dart volley could be a projectile finisher. ect.
• Slightly higher power scaling for the rifle and pistol basic attacks. Once again, not a lot, just a tweak.
• Better healing from Elixir infused bombs. i.e. Bigger heal, and add a cooldown.
• Toss Elixir H could do without swiftness, maybe replace it with stability?
• Working deployable turrets: Seems like fun with accelerant-packed turrets.
• Gadgets should have a lower cooldown, without having to trait for it.
• Some traits could be changed a bit: Acidic elixirs is a bad trait, in that same tier you have Sitting Duck which is a well designed, balanced trait. Acidic Elixirs could be whenever you use an elixir you deal damage in an AoE around you.

Overall I think we need some bug fixes and a few minor tweaks. I have a few big changes I would like to see, and I do think it could be fun to have another weapon option, but mostly little stuff.

coglin.1496:

Ayestes.1273:

• Formula 409 should create a splash heal (1000 – 1600) on thrown elixirs.

I completely disagree. This trait is really powerful by being such a solid condition removal. A splash heal on top of that is way OP.

I agree with Coglin, just seems to be too much, 409 is amazing as is. However I agree with most everything else Ayestes said.

Anymras.5729:

I think you misunderstand the point. The point is, if something, or somebody, puts up a Reflect/Absorb/Destroy Projectiles bubble/field/etcetera, we have no non-Utility way to continue to deal damage to them like every other class can, due to having no dedicated melee weapon.

Static shot does not function as a projectile. It hits them

Blunderbuss is not projectile damage, it hits them.

Overcharge shot is not projectile damage, it hits them.

Jump shot is not projectile damage, it hits them.

Blow torch is not projectile damage, it hits them. (Pistol #4)

Magnetic inversion.

Throw shield.

Both of the shield skills and overcharge shot will interrupt and stop whatever skill they are using to absorb, reflect, or what ever skill to stop projectiles.

Are you sure you actually play an engineer?

Their is no combination of weapons we have that does not accomplish what you are claiming we cannot do with are weapons.

coglin.1496:

Anymras.5729:

I think you misunderstand the point. The point is, if something, or somebody, puts up a Reflect/Absorb/Destroy Projectiles bubble/field/etcetera, we have no non-Utility way to continue to deal damage to them like every other class can, due to having no dedicated melee weapon.

Static shot does not function as a projectile. It hits them

Blunderbuss is not projectile damage, it hits them.

Overcharge shot is not projectile damage, it hits them.

Jump shot is not projectile damage, it hits them.

Blow torch is not projectile damage, it hits them. (Pistol #4)

Magnetic inversion.

Throw shield.

Both of which will interrupt and stop whatever skill they are using to absorb, reflect, or what ever skill to stop projectiles.

Are you sure you actually play an engineer?

Static Shot definitely functions as a projectile, unless there’s some kind of bug that’s causing it to zoom back and hit me in the face instead.

As I said, however, in the second part of that post – you know, the part you didn’t quote? – even the attacks we have that don’t count as projectiles have cooldowns, preventing us from being able to actually continue attacking after, at most, three hits. Also, funny story – I actually mentioned the three Rifle skills as examples of attacks that might possibly, by some oversight, not count as projectile attacks, and essentially said everything I’ve said in this paragraph in the second half of my previous post.

You know what, I’m just going to start ignoring you. You obviously don’t finish reading posts before trying to reply to them, which puts something of a damper on any possibility of you saying something intelligent or insightful, in my opinion.

Edit: As you edited the post I was responding to, I’m going to reply to the edit, and then ignore you. I’m just going to sloppy-quote this bit.

“Their is no combination of weapons we have that does not accomplish what you are claiming we cannot do with are weapons.

Anymras.5729:

Any weapon skill we have that might possibly not count as a projectile (some of the Rifle’s skills, perhaps Blowtorch on P/P) also has a cooldown, leaving us incapable of continuing to deal damage after an initial rush of, at most, three attacks (Jump Shot, Blunderbuss, Overcharge, if the second two somehow don’t count as projectiles).

“Talk about a crock of hooey. Name me one skill another profession has that dos the function your referring to that is not on a similar cool down as ours are? Name me one skill on any professions that is not a utility such as our kits are that can do what your suggesting.”

I’m going to go with “Any of their melee weapons. Any weapon they have with a melee auto-attack.”

And now I’m done.

coglin.1496:

Static shot does not function as a projectile. It hits them

pretty sure it does function as a projectile

Oh you mean this joke….sorry I thought you were kidding with it

Anymras.5729:

Any weapon skill we have that might possibly not count as a projectile (some of the Rifle’s skills, perhaps Blowtorch on P/P) also has a cooldown, leaving us incapable of continuing to deal damage after an initial rush of, at most, three attacks (Jump Shot, Blunderbuss, Overcharge, if the second two somehow don’t count as projectiles).

Talk about a crock of hooey. Name me one skill another profession have that do the function your referring to that is not on a similar cool down as ours are? Name me one skill on any professions that is not a utility such as our kits are that can do what your suggesting.

You have a miserably horrible habit of trying to make a issue out of something with the engineer that works exactly the same on all professions. I mean Come on, could this be more straw man. Your complaining that although we have skills to counter things in the game, that they have a cool down ? It is not my fault if you lack the ability to manage your skills and use your counters at proper times, instead of spamming them as if your using some skill rotation from another MMOs. Thats an issue with how your playing, not an issue with the profession. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Maskaganda.2043:

coglin.1496:

Static shot does not function as a projectile. It hits them

pretty sure it does function as a projectile

It hits thief’s while they are using Dagger Storm. that much I know. Based on that, I assumed it worked on other similar skills.

coglin.1496:

Thats not true at all. With my shield I can reflect or block attacks myself, while stuning any attack one me. You do realize if they attack me with a hammer, shield skill #5 stuns them right? and I can do an AoE knock back with shield skill #4.

With those two skills, there is literally nothing I cannot counter in this game.

Until someone pops stability and tears you apart.

ManCaptain.3154:

coglin.1496:

Thats not true at all. With my shield I can reflect or block attacks myself, while stuning any attack one me. You do realize if they attack me with a hammer, shield skill #5 stuns them right? and I can do an AoE knock back with shield skill #4.

With those two skills, there is literally nothing I cannot counter in this game.

Until someone pops stability and tears you apart.

Stability does not make you immune to stun. Shield #5 stuns if you attack me. So I not seeing how that would happen.

Stability is for blow backs, immobilizes, knock backs, and knockdowns . Pulls like Scorpion wire, magnetic grasp, into the void, and magnet also ignore stability as I understand it, but I have not personally tested all of those, so I am going off second hand information.

Goloith.6349:

Maketso.5602:

Im also extremely disappointed that the rifle has such little condition spec. The auto attack should have some kind of condition.

Absolutely not. They need to do the exact opposite. The need to remove all condition damage from rifle.

They need to make p/p damage more condition based. So increase condition, lower damage.

I lol’d……So a weapon with no conditions? Yea, lets just lessen the class. So we can all ignore this users post due to being mis-informed. The pistols are already condition based heavily.

As it is, the rifle could use some kind of condition on the auto attack, or better condition on #5. I dont know if you recall, but this thread is for constructive HELP for engineers.

@coglin: Look at our class , then at others. Why dont you count the projectile finishers and other finishers compared to us?
Also, all of your posts are heavily biased on using a shield. Since when should a class resort to one OFF-HAND weapon. Not to mention the insane cool-downs on the two shield skills. What are they, 30s and 40s respectively? Horrendous.

I’m pretty sure I’ve had Static Shot reflected back at me before as well. Or at least I’ve ended up being Blinded and Confused upon using it. My memory isn’t good enough to remember exactly what things caused the reflection, I’ve just assumed it’s been reflectable.

Please guys, try not to get heated here. I think discussion is good, but remember you are discussion opinions and it’s not likely you are going to change anyone’s mind via forums. So simply explain your opinion and be done with it if you disagree with other people’s feedback/suggestions.

For example, I don’t think the Rifle really needs any conditions either. MH Pistol for condition damage and Rifle for direct damage is an extremely easy split to deal with when a profession only has two mainhand choices. What the Rifle needs, is the ability to use the weakened damage value of #3 at full Rifle range and the self-crowd control sections of #4 and #5 removed. If the Rifle were to pickup a condition damage focus, then the direct damage focus would have to dialed back. Direct damage builds need a weapon to fall back on.

Maketso.5602:

@coglin: Look at our class , then at others. Why dont you count the projectile finishers and other finishers compared to us?
Also, all of your posts are heavily biased on using a shield. Since when should a class resort to one OFF-HAND weapon. Not to mention the insane cool-downs on the two shield skills. What are they, 30s and 40s respectively? Horrendous.

What does projectile finishers have to do with anything? We have 10. putting us at 4th out of 8. So the top 50% of all the professions. We have 3 more blast finishers then the next closest in that finisher. We can do all combo fields except “dark”. So, where are you going with this?

I am not currently using a shield, I use rifle. That is irreverent though. I am not biased toward the shield. I am biased against posters claiming our profession cannot do something that I know good and well it can. If it takes a shield to do that, it is just how it is. that does not mean Anyone has a right to claim we cannot do it.

He made a false claim. If I have no bias or a heavy one, that is irrelevant to someone claiming we cannot do something with out a kit, when in fact we can. I have to wonder why your bashing a poster for disproving misinformation though.

Ayestes.1273:

For example, I don’t think the Rifle really needs any conditions either. MH Pistol for condition damage and Rifle for direct damage is an extremely easy split to deal with when a profession only has two mainhand choices. What the Rifle needs, is the ability to use the weakened damage value of #3 at full Rifle range and the self-crowd control sections of #4 and #5 removed. If the Rifle were to pickup a condition damage focus, then the direct damage focus would have to dialed back. Direct damage builds need a weapon to fall back on.

I see it differently. Having only two main hand weapons, without the weapon swapping option, is even more the reason to have conditions on both weapons. Neither should be changed. These weapons need more balance than any other profession. As it stands the rifle is one of the most balanced weapon layouts in the game (my opinion lol). I run a direct damage rifle build, and find that the control aspects balance things nicely, and would be hard pressed to replace that with kits (Not to say that I couldn’t but one nice, neat package is ideal). The conditions (Vulnerability, Bleed and Immobilize) are minimal, but effective for what the rifle wants to do: control and apply damage. As I said before in my suggestions I think the auto attack needs a buff, other than that both weapons are fine.

Engineer should not be bound to kits as a requirement of play.

If they were expected to use kits, then it would be our F1-4 buttons, but they’re not.

I’d like to see some much needed buffs to our actual weapon sets, and i’d like to see elixir based builds able to stack boons like water based eles (we should be able to hover at 10 might, and when putting out effort stack it to 25 – WITHOUT using a kit – if we were to go p/p elixir)

here is my problem with the problem you all have with the kits,

the engineer is designed around the kits. the whole class revoles around the kits. the kits, in essense are a form of stance dancing. you dance between the kits that fit your groove, and supplement with your weapons and your devices.

i have total confidence in my surmising that the devs behind the engies said that weapons were the fallback tools when gimickery and technical wizardy failed at last.

that said, they made using weapons primary to several builds to allow a large field of veraatility beneath the profession so more people may enjoy it.

in a way, they may have spread the butter a little thin in some areas, but in others there is a nice thick dab of creamy dairy melting into the fresh toast that is the engineer.

every class has issues of some kind. go read their forums. even eles and warriors find things to mewl about. but at the end of the day the class is playable, there are many options, lots of fun to be had, and a rich and deep playstyle to master.

games used to be about beating the game and being better than the game, not crying for patches when the game beats you. im certain they still are.

if somethimg is really and fairlu busted, it’ll get fixed.

this thread is about discussing the rich playstyle and offering feedback, positive ad critical. opinions will differ. get over it.

soz for the typos, im on a kitty touchscreen.

I love the Engineer, but hot kitten if it doesn’t have a lot of problems!

Skills Delays
Some skills just take too long to fire or land. In PvE you can get away with it, but in PvP/WvW any reasonably skilled player will move out of the way.

Rifle Blunderbuss – takes way to long to fire. I don’t think it should have a cast time at all, since it has a fair cooldown.

Rifle Jump Shot – it always seems upon landing that you are hovering in mid air forever. People just move out of the way before you land, they have plenty of time and don’t even have to dodge roll.

Flame Thrower Flame Blast – Even in PvE, if mobs are moving towards you they miss the blast part of the skill.

Turrets
Turrets need help! Enough people in this thread have already pointed it out. Essentially, because most fights last less than 30 seconds, a traited Turret build should not have any Turret with a CD greater than 30 seconds. CDs should start when the Turret is used, not after it has been destroyed. Turrets also need a major health boost -or- have them immune to AoE.

Lack Luster Toolbelt Skills
Quite a few toolbelt skills just aren’t greater. Either their CDs are far too long, or the effect/damage is significant. Rocket skill, I’m looking at you!

Grenadier
I’ve recently just started playing as a Grenadier. These rock, but I hope after having a 30% nerf that we’ll find the up coming AoE nerf leaves these alone!

They really perform underwater, however on land they are more difficult. I personally wish that Grenade (Skill #1) was a targeted skill so that it would auto-attack. It’s very tiring to have to constantly spam a ground targeting skill like that.

It also feels like these have no collision detection, like they do underwater. If I am not properly leading the target, my grenades seem to go through them!

Elixir S and Asura
Can we please fix the camera issues already!

I have other gripes too, but I think people have already mentioned them. Here’s hoping to a better future for Engineers!

-Cowboy

coglin.1496:

ManCaptain.3154:

coglin.1496:

Thats not true at all. With my shield I can reflect or block attacks myself, while stuning any attack one me. You do realize if they attack me with a hammer, shield skill #5 stuns them right? and I can do an AoE knock back with shield skill #4.

With those two skills, there is literally nothing I cannot counter in this game.

Until someone pops stability and tears you apart.

Stability does not make you immune to stun. Shield #5 stuns if you attack me. So I not seeing how that would happen.

Stability is for blow backs, immobilizes, knock backs, and knockdowns . Pulls like Scorpion wire, magnetic grasp, into the void, and magnet also ignore stability as I understand it, but I have not personally tested all of those, so I am going off second hand information.

You haven’t tested this, if you did, you’d know you are wrong.

You seem to have this weird idea, that you can know which CCs are affected by it from its name “Stability”, and thus you came to the idea that it affects movement CCs only.

Stability:
Cannot be knocked down, pushed back, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, or feared.

Therefore, you can immobilize someone with stability (not like it matters since warriors lose immobilize when using jump skills if traited).
Pulls still work but this is considered a bug. Stability definitively stops stun and daze.

In any case when someone pops their swiftness and stability like Ranger’s Rampage as One, you as engineer will simply get killed. Can’t knock him back with rifle, can’t knock him back with shield, can’t stun him or daze him with shield. Can’t knock him back with flamethrower airblast, can’t knock him away with big ol bomb, can’t knock him away with hidden ram, can’t knock down with slick shoes, can’t knock him away with thumper turret, can’t knock down with rocket turret. All he needs now is some way to shake off immobilizies and he’s effectively unstoppable.

Engineer is much much too reliant on CC to defend himself.

coglin.1496:

Maketso.5602:

@coglin: Look at our class , then at others. Why dont you count the projectile finishers and other finishers compared to us?
Also, all of your posts are heavily biased on using a shield. Since when should a class resort to one OFF-HAND weapon. Not to mention the insane cool-downs on the two shield skills. What are they, 30s and 40s respectively? Horrendous.

What does projectile finishers have to do with anything? We have 10. putting us at 4th out of 8. So the top 50% of all the professions. We have 3 more blast finishers then the next closest in that finisher. We can do all combo fields except “dark”. So, where are you going with this?

I am not currently using a shield, I use rifle. That is irreverent though. I am not biased toward the shield. I am biased against posters claiming our profession cannot do something that I know good and well it can. If it takes a shield to do that, it is just how it is. that does not mean Anyone has a right to claim we cannot do it.

He made a false claim. If I have no bias or a heavy one, that is irrelevant to someone claiming we cannot do something with out a kit, when in fact we can. I have to wonder why your bashing a poster for disproving misinformation though.

Accessibility and recharges on those finishers matter! There’s a big difference between blast finisher on a weapon skill with 10 sec recharge like Warrior Longbow skill and blast finisher from detonating your Rocket Turret, a skill that destroys a valuable turret that has a LONG recharge.

Engineer has very few easy and accessible finishers. Most finishers come from specific utility skills and you can slot very few of those and they restrict your build a lot more than having finishers on your weapon skills which you will use anyway.

So just counting the finishers and saying we are 4th class of 8 is just intentionally misleading, when it’s super hard to slot even some of those finishers without massively screwing with our own builds.

Another example how you just love to count everything without ever thinking about practical side of things is how you claim we have all fields but dark.
Do we now?

Ethereal field is available on a single long recharge utility skill with 60 sec recharge, 33% of the time. Hardly comparable with actual mesmer’s access to ethereal fields.
IT DOESN’T COUNT.

Nor does having a Ice field on Mortar elite. Because nobody will jump on a mortar in the middle of fight to fire off ice mortar then jump off it and go in the middle of ice field and do a blast finisher. It’s just not practical or accessible.

Another nice example of how things are far more complicated that you’re trying to make them look is water field. We have a single source for water field. Healing turret, so using this field locks down your healing skill. Hardly a small thing.

So it’s ridiculous to run around saying “we have all these fields and all these finishers, we are so versatile” when in reality some engineer builds can utilize some of this and some engineer builds can utilize none of this. And pretty much every other gun/bow user can utilize combo fields naturally, without having to take specific utilities, without having to put a lick of thought into it.

Well, there’s a number of things that can be mentioned, but in the interests of keeping things short and sweet I’ll mention one:

Main hand pistol could use some love.

1. Explosive shot is very weak in both direct and condition damage. The pistol is generally considered a condition damage weapon, but it’s fairly poor at stacking bleed compared to many other weapons in the game (i.e. warrior sword and rifle, ranger shortbow, necro scepter). It does have an AoE blast, but it’s fairly small and the AoE will not apply bleeds to secondary targets. This is odd because it makes it seem like this attack would be better suited to direct damage so that the AoE would be more powerful, yet it’s very weak by default in that regard. I’m also not sure it conforms to the stated 1/2 second “cast time” listed on the tooltip… seems to be more like 3/4 like the rifle. You can do some cool things with it when you have certain traits and utilities, but ideally you wouldn’t have to take those things just to have an effective auto-attack.

IMO, it could use longer bleed duration and the ability to apply bleeds in its AoE. The main benefit of using this attack at the moment is that I can use the shield alongside it.

2. The scattering effect on poison dart volley serves little purpose. It seems like the idea was to have it work in some sort of pseudo-cone effect that you would fire into a crowd. However, in my experience this ability is generally fired at one particular target instead of a group, meaning you have to be well inside the range of the attack in order to accomplish this. Each individual dart is not very powerful, but they can do some decent damage and poison stacking if they all connect on a target.

This ability would be much better if it just shot all the darts straight at your target instead of firing in a spread fashion.

3. Static shot is actually in a pretty good place right now, but I get these weird “obstructed” occurrences with it sometimes even though they are clearly in line of sight. I think this is just an overall game engine bug that needs looking at though.

Leaving bugs aside.

- Many things need fast landing: toss elixir, grenades, FT#4, EG#5, pistol #5.

- About toss elixir I can understard the flavour of “mix this and that” to RNG, but it lack of effectiveness unless they grant 2 of 3 boon for example, and I’d really love the idea of the 1k heal on them, even as an implementation to cleansing formula 409 and not a base effect.

- I dream more ability to survive. I don’t want new skill, we already have enough, but heavy armor.
We are more close-range oriented than both warrior and guardian, because our only ranged option are rifle#1 and grenade kit (that’s tricky to use because of the slow landing+red circle warning), and as adventurer profession we lack the range of ranger or the ability to stealth away of thief because permaspeed+block or elixir S won’t save you from war-guardian who can leap forward(with speed), a thief that shadowstep to you, an ele ride the lightning/burning speed, or a mesmer blink+sword#3.

Yes, I have same survivability problems with engineer.

Engineer has great survivability against melee enemies unless they have CC immunity (players with stability or champions). So it’s great vs melee normal mobs.

Another great deal of survivability for engineer comes from Blinds (nades, static shot, smoke bomb).

And once again, this works great vs mobs (they attack slowly) but doesn’t work all that well vs players (attack fast and both smoke bomb and flame turret smoke have been nerfed).

Then comes the issue that against ranged enemies, survivability decreases significantly, especially against ranged enemies that don’t use projectiles (some necros, eles, some mesmers). Ability to avoid damage against these enemies is drastically lower for engineer.

Maybe I need to explain better the survivability.

I’m not saying we’re bad at tanking melee opponent, in fact we’re pretty good bunker against melee opponent and as a pointholder, but our effectiveness as a tank decreese in wide space because people will simple go out of our bomb field .

The problem is that our ranged choices, expecially in pvp/wvw are limited to rifle#1 because ppl will evade grenade(unless you throw them randomly inside a zerk), more so the farther you are more time enemies have to go out of the red circle(slow landing).

And the other skill of rifle require to be melee range.

I think we’re still good because if few people know how to use an engineer well, even less people know how to fight an engineer. Beacause we’re really easy to kite in open field.
I mean if someone immobilize you, if you use a build with elixir and have CF409 you can smash some glass under your feet and be free. But if you use medikit you’ve the n4, but wait it spawn in front of you and you’re immobilized so you can’t free yourself with that(it could be a nice idea have a stun breaker on 20-30 sec cd on kit refinement instead of the useless explosion), healing turret won’t help either.
So we have rocket boot that free us from immobilize but push us back(hey wait for me!), goggles that are fine, and elixir S that is fine but you can use any other skill for 3 seconds, but you still need to reach your target.

Let’s take a renown example, tankcat, it’s very hard to kill but it has 0 agressive power, its weapon are toolkit(melee) confusion from static shot(without any condition damage, because he’s wearing P/V/T gear) and the retaliation from elixir B.

I’m not say engi are bad, but if I should be a close combat fighter without a safe escape(like stealth) I’d like to have more iron on me.

BTW this is my dream I don’t think they will change a profession from medium to heavy armor months after the release.

Yes, that’s what I’m saying. We can tank melee, especially if they have to come to us, but outside that effectiveness decreases rapidly.

Judging from past experience with ANet it will take more than 2 years more before engineer is reworked into something with some actual gameplay synergy.

What we lack in terms of survival is disengage mechanics. Unless you animation cancel the Rifle #5, we have nothing and even that isn’t that great. We have access to perma-swiftness, but without a disengage you can’t get out of combat quickly enough.

Honestly I don’t know where it’d even be possible to put disengage into an Engineer though. So I’m looking at more brute force survival, such as possible sustain mechanics or the ability to actually support my allies with boons via Elixirs.

The whole “throwing elixirs to buff allies” isn’t effective. Elixirs have small aoe, require targetting, don’t do much (one random boon in most variants) and worst of all, have a cast time. They are far worse support than warrior shouts, which have large range, require no targetting, can do cond cleanse and heal, and most importantly, can be activated while attacking or doing other things.
I also prefer warhorn ranger/warrior and guardian shouts for support, than thrown elixirs.

The only really good support from engy in terms of buff/healing/removal is Heal turret and Super elixir. Those 2 abilities are really good.

I’ve posted this on another thread and i had some feedback saying it would be overpowered. But after seeing some videos of D/D eles i’ve come to see what versatility really is. I think that the solution to make the engineer look like the vision Anet has of it, is to turn all our utilities into kits. We are the “walking arsenals after all”.

After that they can start balancing it. The only utility that would bring problems if turned into a kit is the elixirs. The turrets would be balance if you turned them into a single turret and the gadgets could continue to be lackluster because you can carry all of them.

JohnDied.3476:

Goloith.6349:

coglin.1496:

Goloith.6349:

They need to make p/p damage more condition based. So increase condition, lower damage.

More condition based? How so? Every weapons skill except for Glue Shot is extremely condition based.

Yes they are, but the condition damage needs to be much higher. People running p/p are rolling condition damage to begin with (unless for just sigils). If this means giving up damage for condition damage that’s fine.

The pistol #1 already does half the damage of rifle. A better option would be to take the aoe away and replace it with another two seconds of bleed.

I’d be down for that if they fixed Poison dart to act like a fan-attack for AOE at max range and a single target when up close like Blowtorch.

Ayestes.1273:

What we lack in terms of survival is disengage mechanics. Unless you animation cancel the Rifle #5, we have nothing and even that isn’t that great. We have access to perma-swiftness, but without a disengage you can’t get out of combat quickly enough.

You mean such as hitting elixir s and getting away invulnerable? Hitting EG #4 then instantly rocket boots and in .5s being 1600 away from your previous location? Like hitting tool belt skill of slick shoes and moving double speed and our running anyone? Using kit refinement and swapping to tool kit and AoE crippling then hit #2 and do it again?

I have to disagree when you suggest we have issues disengaging. I use the box of nails alot. I use the EG#4+Rocket boots 5 times a day in WvW. Letely I have been using elixit infused bombs, using slick shoes to run into a zerg knocking down as I go, spam a line of bombs causing internal confusion. When I feel things are getting hairy, I doge twice (basically invincible for 3s+) hit super speed, and drop bombs as I run away from the zerg to safety. If I feel I need to dodge I can tap 9 on my keyboard for elixir R and have full endurance and dodge twice again if I need.

So again, I disagree with the statement that we have no exit strategy.

ManCaptain.3154:

The whole “throwing elixirs to buff allies” isn’t effective. Elixirs have small aoe, require targetting, don’t do much (one random boon in most variants) and worst of all, have a cast time. They are far worse support than warrior shouts, which have large range, require no targetting, can do cond cleanse and heal, and most importantly, can be activated while attacking or doing other things.
I also prefer warhorn ranger/warrior and guardian shouts for support, than thrown elixirs.

It really would make sense, if at least the tool belt skills worked AoE off of us similar to shouts. The tool tip could just say that you smash a elixir at your feet, granting such and such to those in range. I can see why either the tool belt skills or the utility slotted skills of elixirs need to be self only, but being able to do elixir b both slotted skill and tool belt similar to shouts ins over powered.

You are right Elixir Gun, Slick Shoes, and Rocket Boots is disengage. I’m completely in the wrong there. I had my mind stuck on 100 Nades and my own build in particular.

I would disagree that Elixir S is disengage though, but then it comes to whatever our definitions of disengage would be. I see it as getting quickly away from a fight to both get out of combat and reach another node quickly. Elixir S to me is simply an invuln and downed state tool, which is incredibly useful just not what I’d categorize as disengage.

coglin.1496:

It really would make sense, if at least the tool belt skills worked AoE off of us similar to shouts. The tool tip could just say that you smash a elixir at your feet, granting such and such to those in range. I can see why either the tool belt skills or the utility slotted skills of elixirs need to be self only, but being able to do elixir b both slotted skill and tool belt similar to shouts ins over powered.

Oh I love this idea. I pretty much only throw them at my feet now anyway.

Ayestes.1273:

I would disagree that Elixir S is disengage though, but then it comes to whatever our definitions of disengage would be. I see it as getting quickly away from a fight to both get out of combat and reach another node quickly. Elixir S to me is simply an invuln and downed state tool, which is incredibly useful just not what I’d categorize as disengage.

I assume by this, what your getting at, is that by disengaging, you mean the ability to put space between you and the enemy? Personally i feel any skill that allows me to run away without being slowed (IE crowd controlled) is a disengaging skill, but that is just me.

Yeah we’d be arguing definitions. Ride the Lightning and the Ranger Sword Leaps would be disengage to me. Swiftness walking away while invuln just is too slow for me to classify as disengage. My main reasons for not really classifying it as disengage revolves around chasing and the minimum combat exit distance, but as I said before it’s all in the definition of what we know as disengage in terms of GW2. Elixir S definitely works in dealing with disengaging from pressure for a few moments though.

No class is perfect but I have tons of fun with this class. Addicting sometimes, boring others.

nakoda.4213:

here is my problem with the problem you all have with the kits,

the engineer is designed around the kits. the whole class revoles around the kits. the kits, in essense are a form of stance dancing. you dance between the kits that fit your groove, and supplement with your weapons and your devices.

i have total confidence in my surmising that the devs behind the engies said that weapons were the fallback tools when gimickery and technical wizardy failed at last.

that said, they made using weapons primary to several builds to allow a large field of veraatility beneath the profession so more people may enjoy it.

in a way, they may have spread the butter a little thin in some areas, but in others there is a nice thick dab of creamy dairy melting into the fresh toast that is the engineer.

every class has issues of some kind. go read their forums. even eles and warriors find things to mewl about. but at the end of the day the class is playable, there are many options, lots of fun to be had, and a rich and deep playstyle to master.

games used to be about beating the game and being better than the game, not crying for patches when the game beats you. im certain they still are.

if somethimg is really and fairlu busted, it’ll get fixed.

this thread is about discussing the rich playstyle and offering feedback, positive ad critical. opinions will differ. get over it.

soz for the typos, im on a kitty touchscreen.

And here’re the problems with the Engineer being built around Kits:

1. It makes us too similar to the Elementalist, except we have to use Utility slots for our Kits.
2. They’re freakin’ Utility skills, so it’s entirely possible to just never use them, in favor of using Elixirs, Gadgets, or Turrets.
3. We’re penalized, at least in our ability to deal damage, based on the ‘versatility’ a specific set of our Utility skills offers us (despite, of course, the “King of Versatility” not having this penalty, besides the whole optional nature of Kits).

In my opinion, if a class is built around something, it should have no way to not have that available for use at all times (except when it’s on cooldown, or something similar). Building a class around something that is completely and totally optional for said class is ridiculous.

That said, I get the feeling that they did build the class around Kits, probably in the same style as the Elementalist’s Attunements, but then realized that they were basically making a tech-based Elementalist and threw together the Toolbelt instead. Must’ve gotten pretty close to release time, too.

Anymras.5729:

And here’re the problems with the Engineer being built around Kits:
1. It makes us too similar to the Elementalist, except we have to use Utility slots for our Kits.
2. They’re freakin’ Utility skills, so it’s entirely possible to just never use them, in favor of using Elixirs, Gadgets, or Turrets.
3. We’re penalized, at least in our ability to deal damage, based on the ‘versatility’ a specific set of our Utility skills offers us (despite, of course, the “King of Versatility” not having this penalty, besides the whole optional nature of Kits).

And here is the problem with your assessment.

1. I do not feel it makes us too similar to ele’s at all. Sure we may use a utility slot, but we get an actual skill of value on the F-keys, they do not. Bomb kit for example, I feel BoB with the AoE knock back and great damage is the equivalent of several utility skills out there.

2. I am not sure where you are even going with the second point

3. Penalized? I do not see how our mechanics penalize us, because they do not. What penalizes us, is how Anet gauges benefits and value. Such as, with Explosive shot, in a crowd, we spread out hearty damage. The issue is, they compensate that by keeping the damage coefficient low, and they cut the original bleeds in half. It doesn’t make it a penalized skill, it makes it a skill that excels in crowds and suffers single target.

coglin.1496:

Maketso.5602:

@coglin: Look at our class , then at others. Why dont you count the projectile finishers and other finishers compared to us?
Also, all of your posts are heavily biased on using a shield. Since when should a class resort to one OFF-HAND weapon. Not to mention the insane cool-downs on the two shield skills. What are they, 30s and 40s respectively? Horrendous.

What does projectile finishers have to do with anything? We have 10. putting us at 4th out of 8. So the top 50% of all the professions. We have 3 more blast finishers then the next closest in that finisher. We can do all combo fields except “dark”. So, where are you going with this?

I am not currently using a shield, I use rifle. That is irreverent though. I am not biased toward the shield. I am biased against posters claiming our profession cannot do something that I know good and well it can. If it takes a shield to do that, it is just how it is. that does not mean Anyone has a right to claim we cannot do it.

He made a false claim. If I have no bias or a heavy one, that is irrelevant to someone claiming we cannot do something with out a kit, when in fact we can. I have to wonder why your bashing a poster for disproving misinformation though.

We have the least amount of reliable combo fields in the game, out of the ones we do have. Forgot Elixir U fields are 33% chance to get? Or that our Bombs have the only reliable fire/smoke field? Who uses a bomb kit these days? Never see it.

Read back a page, if you want to be refreshed on combo finishers and how we have far less. There is a list.

Maketso.5602:

Or that our Bombs have the only reliable fire/smoke field? Who uses a bomb kit these days? Never see it.

Alot of engineers I see, and I see them used all over in WvW. Do you have any actual logical to support what your getting at here?

Skilled groups thrive on using combos, so I guess the answer to who uses bombs for combo fields could be skilled players.

We have the least amount of reliable combo fields in the game,

Mmmkkaaayy.

Ice field, shows up 100% of the time I cast the ability to create it.

Fire field shows up 100% of the time I drop fire bomb

Light field shows up 100% of the time I drop super elixir

poison fields pops 100% of the time that I drop poison grenade

Smoke field shows ip 100% of the time I drop smoke bomb

Water field shows up 100% of the time that I pop healing turret

That is 6 fields that we get 100% of the time we use the skill that causes them. One and only one has a 33% chance to occur and that is not among the 6 previously mentioned.

Thieves get 5
Mesmers get 2
Necros get 4
Warriors get 1
Rangers get 5
Guardians get 2
Elementalist get 5

We also have access to all finishers. The most blast finisher, and second most projectile finishers. So please stop trying to pretend we are weak in the combo area when we are clearly one of the best professions at utilizing combos.

Perhaps you should invest some time learning about the professions comb fields and finishers before you attempt to tell us how they work

Anymras.5729:

nakoda.4213:

here is my problem with the problem you all have with the kits,

the engineer is designed around the kits. the whole class revoles around the kits. the kits, in essense are a form of stance dancing. you dance between the kits that fit your groove, and supplement with your weapons and your devices.

i have total confidence in my surmising that the devs behind the engies said that weapons were the fallback tools when gimickery and technical wizardy failed at last.

that said, they made using weapons primary to several builds to allow a large field of veraatility beneath the profession so more people may enjoy it.

in a way, they may have spread the butter a little thin in some areas, but in others there is a nice thick dab of creamy dairy melting into the fresh toast that is the engineer.

every class has issues of some kind. go read their forums. even eles and warriors find things to mewl about. but at the end of the day the class is playable, there are many options, lots of fun to be had, and a rich and deep playstyle to master.

games used to be about beating the game and being better than the game, not crying for patches when the game beats you. im certain they still are.

if somethimg is really and fairlu busted, it’ll get fixed.

this thread is about discussing the rich playstyle and offering feedback, positive ad critical. opinions will differ. get over it.

soz for the typos, im on a kitty touchscreen.

And here’re the problems with the Engineer being built around Kits:

1. It makes us too similar to the Elementalist, except we have to use Utility slots for our Kits.
2. They’re freakin’ Utility skills, so it’s entirely possible to just never use them, in favor of using Elixirs, Gadgets, or Turrets.
3. We’re penalized, at least in our ability to deal damage, based on the ‘versatility’ a specific set of our Utility skills offers us (despite, of course, the “King of Versatility” not having this penalty, besides the whole optional nature of Kits).

In my opinion, if a class is built around something, it should have no way to not have that available for use at all times (except when it’s on cooldown, or something similar). Building a class around something that is completely and totally optional for said class is ridiculous.

That said, I get the feeling that they did build the class around Kits, probably in the same style as the Elementalist’s Attunements, but then realized that they were basically making a tech-based Elementalist and threw together the Toolbelt instead. Must’ve gotten pretty close to release time, too.

So, from a purely surface level argument, how does putting our kits (utilities) in utility slots hinder us? Ele attunements are similar yes, but a different beast, reminds me of the guy who was upset that thieves have more bleeds then engies. Well ya…

I’m at work, and struggling to find the words to explain more clearly, so I will reply when I get home again, but the brief answer is that kits give us up to 20 utilities on top of a weapon, by swapping out n1 through n5, while ele have up to 20 attacks with only 3utilities. Apples to oranges, engies have “more” available utility skills at any given time…swappable with no cool downs…while Ele’s have major offence on 10sec(shorter with traits, sure) cool downs.

The differences are subtle but create vastly different styles and capabilities.

I personally cannot see a vision of engies being front line offensive beasts like eles. and that is what eles are for. Sorcerer boom sticks.

coglin.1496:

Ayestes.1273:

• Formula 409 should create a splash heal (1000 – 1600) on thrown elixirs.

I completely disagree. This trait is really powerful by being such a solid condition removal. A splash heal on top of that is way OP.

Doesn’t a traited “Shake it Off” do that already? minus the range…

nakoda.4213:

Anymras.5729:

nakoda.4213:

This one’s chopped out due to message length restrictions.

And here’re the problems with the Engineer being built around Kits:

1. It makes us too similar to the Elementalist, except we have to use Utility slots for our Kits.
2. They’re freakin’ Utility skills, so it’s entirely possible to just never use them, in favor of using Elixirs, Gadgets, or Turrets.
3. We’re penalized, at least in our ability to deal damage, based on the ‘versatility’ a specific set of our Utility skills offers us (despite, of course, the “King of Versatility” not having this penalty, besides the whole optional nature of Kits).

In my opinion, if a class is built around something, it should have no way to not have that available for use at all times (except when it’s on cooldown, or something similar). Building a class around something that is completely and totally optional for said class is ridiculous.

That said, I get the feeling that they did build the class around Kits, probably in the same style as the Elementalist’s Attunements, but then realized that they were basically making a tech-based Elementalist and threw together the Toolbelt instead. Must’ve gotten pretty close to release time, too.

So, from a purely surface level argument, how does putting our kits (utilities) in utility slots hinder us? Ele attunements are similar yes, but a different beast, reminds me of the guy who was upset that thieves have more bleeds then engies. Well ya…

I’m at work, and struggling to find the words to explain more clearly, so I will reply when I get home again, but the brief answer is that kits give us up to 20 utilities on top of a weapon, by swapping out n1 through n5, while ele have up to 20 attacks with only 3utilities. Apples to oranges, engies have “more” available utility skills at any given time…swappable with no cool downs…while Ele’s have major offence on 10sec(shorter with traits, sure) cool downs.

The differences are subtle but create vastly different styles and capabilities.

I personally cannot see a vision of engies being front line offensive beasts like eles. and that is what eles are for. Sorcerer boom sticks.

…well, since apparently it’s not self-evident, by using a Utility slot for our Kits, we can’t use that slot for our other skills. If Engineers using nothing but kits was the intent of the designers (or so I’d guess from their citing our versatility as the reason for reducing our weapon damage in the Class Balance Philosophy, our lack of non-kit weapon choices, and our lack of weapon switching that doesn’t involve kits), why did they bother making the rest of the Engineer’s skills?

I suppose I should also have explained that ‘in the same style as the Elementalist’s Attunements’ meant ‘on keys F1-FX,’ which might also explain my comment about the Toolbelt for anyone who happened to be confused.

As for comparing Elementalist to Engineers: I was only even mentioning the Elementalist because, honestly, the Attunement mechanic and Kits seem very similar to me, except one is available to every example of a given profession, without fail, while the other is only available if the person using it doesn’t have anything else they’d rather have on their skill bar. One gets their damage reduced (by the developers’ own admission, due to the versatility afforded by this mechanic) and the other does not – and that’s not, strangely enough, going to be followed by a ‘respectively.’

I wasn’t intending to turn it into an Engineers Vs Elementalists debate, but rather to point out that if the Engineer was designed around Kits, then it would have to be similar to the way that Elementalist are designed around Attunements – but that, somehow, the Engineer had to spend Utility slots that could be used for other skills and had their damage reduced, which, to me, shows that they may have initially been designed in such a way…and that the developers hadn’t thought out making the kits into Utility skills instead enough to realize the various things they’d done to compensate for giving the class the things to begin with could or should be undone, whether they should have been done in the first place.

Anymras.5729:

nakoda.4213:

Anymras.5729:

nakoda.4213:

This one’s chopped out due to message length restrictions.

And here’re the problems with the Engineer being built around Kits:

1. It makes us too similar to the Elementalist, except we have to use Utility slots for our Kits.
2. They’re freakin’ Utility skills, so it’s entirely possible to just never use them, in favor of using Elixirs, Gadgets, or Turrets.
3. We’re penalized, at least in our ability to deal damage, based on the ‘versatility’ a specific set of our Utility skills offers us (despite, of course, the “King of Versatility” not having this penalty, besides the whole optional nature of Kits).

In my opinion, if a class is built around something, it should have no way to not have that available for use at all times (except when it’s on cooldown, or something similar). Building a class around something that is completely and totally optional for said class is ridiculous.

That said, I get the feeling that they did build the class around Kits, probably in the same style as the Elementalist’s Attunements, but then realized that they were basically making a tech-based Elementalist and threw together the Toolbelt instead. Must’ve gotten pretty close to release time, too.

So, from a purely surface level argument, how does putting our kits (utilities) in utility slots hinder us? Ele attunements are similar yes, but a different beast, reminds me of the guy who was upset that thieves have more bleeds then engies. Well ya…

I’m at work, and struggling to find the words to explain more clearly, so I will reply when I get home again, but the brief answer is that kits give us up to 20 utilities on top of a weapon, by swapping out n1 through n5, while ele have up to 20 attacks with only 3utilities. Apples to oranges, engies have “more” available utility skills at any given time…swappable with no cool downs…while Ele’s have major offence on 10sec(shorter with traits, sure) cool downs.

The differences are subtle but create vastly different styles and capabilities.

I personally cannot see a vision of engies being front line offensive beasts like eles. and that is what eles are for. Sorcerer boom sticks.

…well, since apparently it’s not self-evident, by using a Utility slot for our Kits, we can’t use that slot for our other skills. If Engineers using nothing but kits was the intent of the designers (or so I’d guess from their citing our versatility as the reason for reducing our weapon damage in the Class Balance Philosophy, our lack of non-kit weapon choices, and our lack of weapon switching that doesn’t involve kits), why did they bother making the rest of the Engineer’s skills?

I suppose I should also have explained that ‘in the same style as the Elementalist’s Attunements’ meant ‘on keys F1-FX,’ which might also explain my comment about the Toolbelt for anyone who happened to be confused.

As for comparing Elementalist to Engineers: I was only even mentioning the Elementalist because, honestly, the Attunement mechanic and Kits seem very similar to me, except one is available to every example of a given profession, without fail, while the other is only available if the person using it doesn’t have anything else they’d rather have on their skill bar. One gets their damage reduced (by the developers’ own admission, due to the versatility afforded by this mechanic) and the other does not – and that’s not, strangely enough, going to be followed by a ‘respectively.’

I wasn’t intending to turn it into an Engineers Vs Elementalists debate, but rather to point out that if the Engineer was designed around Kits, then it would have to be similar to the way that Elementalist are designed around Attunements – but that, somehow, the Engineer had to spend Utility slots that could be used for other skills and had their damage reduced, which, to me, shows that they may have initially been designed in such a way…and that the developers hadn’t thought out making the kits into Utility skills instead enough to realize the various things they’d done to compensate for giving the class the things to begin with could or should be undone, whether they should have been done in the first place.

Horrible design of the class is all it is. Engineers are punished if they want to be “versatile”. Let’s see, because of the current meta we are basically pidgeon holed into taking a minimum of 1 stun breaker (none of those kits have a stun breaker) there goes 1 utility slot already. Now we only have 2 slots left to work with, seeing as our kits are the only things with real damage we need to atleast take 1 kit if we plan on killing anybody.

Anybody see the issue here?

coglin.1496:

I have to disagree when you suggest we have issues disengaging. I use the box of nails alot. I use the EG#4+Rocket boots 5 times a day in WvW. Letely I have been using elixit infused bombs, using slick shoes to run into a zerg knocking down as I go, spam a line of bombs causing internal confusion. When I feel things are getting hairy, I doge twice (basically invincible for 3s+) hit super speed, and drop bombs as I run away from the zerg to safety. If I feel I need to dodge I can tap 9 on my keyboard for elixir R and have full endurance and dodge twice again if I need.

Elixir gun, bomb kit and toolkit with slick shoes and rocket boots.

In WvW.

“dropping bombs” and “creating confusion”.

That’s a great build for being carried. But you do have a point that we can run away if we specifically build our character for it.

And if we have 5 utility slots.

coglin.1496:

Maketso.5602:

Or that our Bombs have the only reliable fire/smoke field? Who uses a bomb kit these days? Never see it.

Alot of engineers I see, and I see them used all over in WvW. Do you have any actual logical to support what your getting at here?

Skilled groups thrive on using combos, so I guess the answer to who uses bombs for combo fields could be skilled players.

We have the least amount of reliable combo fields in the game,

Mmmkkaaayy.

Ice field, shows up 100% of the time I cast the ability to create it.

Fire field shows up 100% of the time I drop fire bomb

Light field shows up 100% of the time I drop super elixir

poison fields pops 100% of the time that I drop poison grenade

Smoke field shows ip 100% of the time I drop smoke bomb

Water field shows up 100% of the time that I pop healing turret

That is 6 fields that we get 100% of the time we use the skill that causes them. One and only one has a 33% chance to occur and that is not among the 6 previously mentioned.

Thieves get 5
Mesmers get 2
Necros get 4
Warriors get 1
Rangers get 5
Guardians get 2
Elementalist get 5

We also have access to all finishers. The most blast finisher, and second most projectile finishers. So please stop trying to pretend we are weak in the combo area when we are clearly one of the best professions at utilizing combos.

Perhaps you should invest some time learning about the professions comb fields and finishers before you attempt to tell us how they work

BOB: 30s, Blast. Toolbelt@Bomb kit.
Throw Mine/Detonate: 18s, Blast. Utility.

Heal Detonation: 20seconds.
Net Detonation: 30s.
Rifle: 20s
Rocket: 60s
Thumper: 50s

Magnetic Inversion. 30s, Shield Weapon skill.
Rocket Boots. 30s Utility.
Supply Crate. 180s Elite.

7 landbound Projectile finishers, 4 of which are 100%

Battering Ram: 25s
Surprise Shot: 10s
Throw Wrench: 20s
Throw Shield: 40s

20%s
Explosive Shot
Hip Shot
Tranquilizer Dart

Vs…

Warrior: 13 Projectile Finishers: 10 100% Projectiles (Land), with 3 20%

Aimed Shot: 10s Rifle
BladeTrail: 15s Greatsword
Brutal Shot: 15s Rifle
Impale: 20s Sword (OH)
Kill Shot: 10s Rifle (Burst)
Pin Down: 25s Longbow
Throw Axe: 10s Axe
Throw Bolas: 20s Utility
Throw Boulder: ~180s Elite
Tremor: 25s Mace (OH)

20%s
Bleeding Shot: Rifle
Dual Shot: Longbow
Volley: Rifle, 10s

Oh wait. Second most.

Ranger: 8 100% Projectile finishers (land)
Concussion Shot: 25s Shortbow
Crippling Shot: 12s Shortbow
Crippling Talon: 18s Dagger (OH)
Crippling Throw: 20s Greatsword
Hunter’s Shot: 12s Longbow
Path of Scars: 15s Axe (OH)
Point Blank Shot: 15s Longbow
Quick Shot: 9s Shortbow

20%s
Crossfire: Shortbow
Long Range Shot: Longbow
Rapid Fire: 10s Longbow
Richochet: Axe
Splitblade: 6s Axe

Well, a bronze medal would be fine, but we don’t have it.

Thief: 7 100% projectiles, 4 20% projectiles.
Black Powder: 6 Init Pistol (OH) <—- Combo field AND finisher.
Body Shot: 3 Init Pistol
Dancing Dagger: 4 Init Dagger (OH)
Headshot: 4 init Pistol (OH)
Shadow Shot: 4 Init Dagger/Pistol (Dual)
Scorpion Wire: 30s Utility
Sneak Attack: Pistol (Stealth)

20%:
Repeater: 5 Init Pistol/Nothing (Dual)
Trick Shot: Shortbow
Unload: 5 Init Pistol/Pistol (Dual)
Vital Shot: Pistol

Hrm.

At least the Mesmer and Elementalist classes have a worse time accessing Projectile finishers, right?

Elementalist:
Stoning: 100% Combo finisher .75s Staff (Earth)

Mesmer:
Mirror Blade: 100% Combo finisher: 8s Greatsword

Also, as a footnote: Water field is “up” for about 20% of the duration, and is pretty unreliable. Also, the only ice field we get comes from Mortar, but that’s quite unreliable due to Mortar’s minimum range and missile speed. 10s duration is nice, but the other ice fields seem to do better.

Manticore Five.9867:

coglin.1496:

I have to disagree when you suggest we have issues disengaging. I use the box of nails alot. I use the EG#4+Rocket boots 5 times a day in WvW. Letely I have been using elixit infused bombs, using slick shoes to run into a zerg knocking down as I go, spam a line of bombs causing internal confusion. When I feel things are getting hairy, I doge twice (basically invincible for 3s+) hit super speed, and drop bombs as I run away from the zerg to safety. If I feel I need to dodge I can tap 9 on my keyboard for elixir R and have full endurance and dodge twice again if I need.

Elixir gun, bomb kit and toolkit with slick shoes and rocket boots.

In WvW.

“dropping bombs” and “creating confusion”.

That’s a great build for being carried. But you do have a point that we can run away if we specifically build our character for it.

And if we have 5 utility slots.

If you take grenades you get one of the best chills in the game, go bomb kit and you get an immobilize and cripple. Both kits offer great damage, combos and utility. Add in any elixir for stun-break (I usually R for dungeon runs) and we have a few different ways of disengaging (and crowd controlling considering all of those CCs were AoE). The only place we could have problems disengaging is in PvP and we all recognize that the engineer is a little weak there at the moment.

i think we are starting to get a really good ball rolling here, but I would like to make one suggestion,

comparing *any* class to warrior will cause some major issues since warriors are the control class, and every one else is *meant* to be different from them. it follows then that every one else is *meant* to be even more varied from each other than they are from warriors.

as such, when we post our comparisons of x to y and y to x, we all ought to make the concerted effort to also look for and express why you think those differences (z) exist, and then begin the argument which deals with where the actual issues in the differences lie.

personally, i would hate to play a game with 8 professions that all do the same things the same way with the same functionality and capability. why have different professions otherwise?

if our feedback is to be beneficial to ANet, then it will have to be communicable in their terms as they see the game, not as we see it. this is a difficult exercise. imagine sitting at a table as developers designing classes, and how much work goes in to making things fair (not balanced) while still being varied.

balance comes later.

JohnDied.3476:

If you take grenades you get one of the best chills in the game, go bomb kit and you get an immobilize and cripple. Both kits offer great damage, combos and utility. Add in any elixir for stun-break (I usually R for dungeon runs) and we have a few different ways of disengaging (and crowd controlling considering all of those CCs were AoE). The only place we could have problems disengaging is in PvP and we all recognize that the engineer is a little weak there at the moment.

^ sound advice there. I don’t think it’s too healthy to “count” the number of a certain type of ability across professions—it’s just not an accurate reflection of potential. I self-combo constantly on the engineer, with 3 finishers (5 if you count rifle autoattack’s 20% and elite) and 3 fields. Thanks also for clarifying the aspect of the game we’re discussing, as dungeon builds are and should be VASTLY different from tournament builds.

Also, just for clarification, the grenade kit has no combo fields or finishers—trying to keep it accurate here. Seems a previous poster, who shall remain nameless, thought we had an ice field. That would be incorrect.

NevirSayDie.6235:

JohnDied.3476:

If you take grenades you get one of the best chills in the game, go bomb kit and you get an immobilize and cripple. Both kits offer great damage, combos and utility. Add in any elixir for stun-break (I usually R for dungeon runs) and we have a few different ways of disengaging (and crowd controlling considering all of those CCs were AoE). The only place we could have problems disengaging is in PvP and we all recognize that the engineer is a little weak there at the moment.

^ sound advice there. I don’t think it’s too healthy to “count” the number of a certain type of ability across professions—it’s just not an accurate reflection of potential. I self-combo constantly on the engineer, with 3 finishers (5 if you count rifle autoattack’s 20% and elite) and 3 fields. Thanks also for clarifying the aspect of the game we’re discussing, as dungeon builds are and should be VASTLY different from tournament builds.

Also, just for clarification, the grenade kit has no combo fields or finishers—trying to keep it accurate here. Seems a previous poster, who shall remain nameless, thought we had an ice field. That would be incorrect.

Grenade kit has a Poison field =D
Also, our only ice field is in fact, Mortar’s ability…

Also, I only put up the data to refute some claims that our wide access to fields and finishers stem mostly from our utilities, of which we can only carry 3. Going into detail may have been overkill =D