Guild Wars 2

There is 9 classes ingame and 10 players slots in a raid. Arena net should make everysingle class a slot inside that game content.

@Dirame.8521
Your ideas are great, with the same skills they could also ad more effect.

Such as important damage boost for the team, alacrit or reliable quickness team support.

Also increase the cooldown of the skills they made would be good. They have too big cooldown and low duration too be decent.
Hard Arena light skill buffs are very very bad for example. It should at least grant stability, more buffs and the duration of the arena is far too short to be a good skill.

“Photon Forge replaces the Holosmith’s fifth toolbelt skill” NO . no no no please no. let player be able to use whatever elite skill they want and still be able to use the holosmith.

@Chaith.8256
In raid or WvW you need to think " Is this class build bringing more than and other one "
Every class is decent and can be played. But when it comes to have a slot in the squad you need to compare yourself with other build.

And just from reading/watching vids of the holosmiths skills, this new elite spec don’t have anything that will be worth taking a holosmith in your wvw or pve raid instead of an other class.
We will again be the last wheel of the wagon.
They made an holosmith with a few mechanic and design but there is such tremedous lack of work on the skills buffgiven/duration and synergie with other engi skills that I’m wondering : Is engi the gimic class of gw2 ?

@I don’t remeber who

My main character in pve and wvw is engi healer build water field blaster and condi removal support. and I really enjoy playing my character.

I proved that I can heal as much even sometimes better than a druid in raid but I don’t find raid spot because at the end I’m told that I can’t bring as much damage support like a druid can ( even if we both healers.

I have very good damage mitigation and can be a good tank but I do not find a slot because chronomancer more appreciate than me because of the Alacrit buff.

In WvW with my char I try to do the best I can with removing my team condition and blasting my water fields but it’s without any doubte that leaders will prefer a good reliable meta build instead of me.
( Big thank you for all the poeple that play with me in wvw it’s thank you for taking me with you guys. )

When more than half of my specializations traits and skills have a support intend it seems to me normal to play engi support.

And belive me I will main an Invention/Alchemy/Holosmith build with full menestrel gear meta or not, shiet synergy or not.

Pablo.3259:

There is 9 classes ingame and 10 players slots in a raid. Arena net should make everysingle class a slot inside that game content.

@Dirame.8521
Your ideas are great, with the same skills they could also ad more effect.

Such as important damage boost for the team, alacrit or reliable quickness team support.

Also increase the cooldown of the skills they made would be good. They have too big cooldown and low duration too be decent.
Hard Arena light skill buffs are very very bad for example. It should at least grant stability, more buffs and the duration of the arena is far too short to be a good skill.

“Photon Forge replaces the Holosmith’s fifth toolbelt skill” NO . no no no please no. let player be able to use whatever elite skill they want and still be able to use the holosmith.

@Chaith.8256
In raid or WvW you need to think " Is this class build bringing more than and other one "
Every class is decent and can be played. But when it comes to have a slot in the squad you need to compare yourself with other build.

And just from reading/watching vids of the holosmiths skills, this new elite spec don’t have anything that will be worth taking a holosmith in your wvw or pve raid instead of an other class.
We will again be the last wheel of the wagon.
They made an holosmith with a few mechanic and design but there is such tremedous lack of work on the skills buffgiven/duration and synergie with other engi skills that I’m wondering : Is engi the gimic class of gw2 ?

@I don’t remeber who

My main character in pve and wvw is engi healer build water field blaster and condi removal support. and I really enjoy playing my character.

I proved that I can heal as much even sometimes better than a druid in raid but I don’t find raid spot because at the end I’m told that I can’t bring as much damage support like a druid can ( even if we both healers.

I have very good damage mitigation and can be a good tank but I do not find a slot because chronomancer more appreciate than me because of the Alacrit buff.

In WvW with my char I try to do the best I can with removing my team condition and blasting my water fields but it’s without any doubte that leaders will prefer a good reliable meta build instead of me.
( Big thank you for all the poeple that play with me in wvw it’s thank you for taking me with you guys. )

When more than half of my specializations traits and skills have a support intend it seems to me normal to play engi support.

And belive me I will main an Invention/Alchemy/Holosmith build with full menestrel gear meta or not, shiet synergy or not.

Buff every Holosmith skill better than other professions, i want my F5 skill AND my Photon Forge at the same time and I want all of this now, Anet

Just 1 feature that would make engis comptetitive would do the job.
Just one stuff would slove this.

At least now we will be able to choose defensive utility skills and still do damage like every other class does…PH looks kitten good.

Chaith.8256:

Stacking group utility buffs isn’t the only way to provide value. If you are talking about some kind of min-maxed, highly discriminatory, fixed number GvG squad, I think giving up on equal representation of professions is a good starting point.

Group buffs are, actually, the only way to provide value in a WvW zerg. It’s the only real differentiating factor between the professions and their ranking in the hierarchy. Guardians are brought because of their AoE stability. Revenants are brought because of their increased boon duration and resistance. Elementalists are brought for might and water fields. Mesmers are brought for veils and alacrity. And so on. Whoever does “best” DPS is completely irrelevant, as dead DPS does no DPS. It’s all about what provides the greatest sustain while still having killing power. And the simple fact is, all nine professions are capable of putting out damage while only three to four of them provide boons/buffs necessary for survival.

And because boon/buff sharing is such an integral component to WvW success, and because most boons/buffs only have a 5-player limit, raid groups are generally structured with these professions in mind. This is why pretty much every raid group worth their salt has at least 2 guardians in every raid group, generally supported by a rev, necro, and mesmer/elementalist.

What results is a situation in which the professions that don’t provide much group utility, like thieves and engineers, end up in the “gutter” of the raid group, who don’t get very much if any of the boon support the main groups are getting—really only the proverbial scraps from the table. This only exacerbates the situation further, as it’s not a very fun experience being tossed around in WvW zerg fights because there’s no guardians in your group, nor is it when you’re going down to conditions because you have no necros, elementalists, or revs in your group either.

Just look at Holosmith vs. Spellbreaker. In what situation is a Holosmith preferred? Boon stripping is the single-most important offensive utility a class can provide, and they gave it to a class that already has shouts, banner res, and boons. The longer I look at it the more baffling it becomes. The gap in utility between engineer and other professions has only widened with Path of Fire.

Chaith.8256:

Holosmith will add on to PvE builds, yes, highly min-maxed raids will take a Holosmith because of the core Engineer’s Pinpoint Precision raid wide buff, but they will also take a Holosmith because the Holosmith traitline improves the core Engineer’s DPS! Here you give no credit, as if Holosmith would be not even be used in PvE.

I think I misrepresented myself or you misunderstood me; let me explain.

Holosmith will certainly be used in PvE. It will be fun to play. It will provide (hopefully) a new play style that finally gets us away from 4-kit builds in fractals and raids. None of these statements are in dispute.

What is in dispute is the fact that Holosmith as a tree does not add any layers to the profession with regard to its role—a profession that ostensibly is supposed to be a jack-of-all-trades. I know you don’t play PvE much and granted I don’t much these days either; but a big reason behind my exodus is the literal gutting of our utility over the past 3 years, shifting us away from being a jack-of-all-trades to a bland, run of the mill DPS profession.

I am not refusing to acknowledge that personal damage is a tangibly useful addition. I think you’re just refusing to acknowledge that personal damage is already something engineer is quite good at. The purpose of elite specializations is to introduce new roles for each profession, or at least build on preexisting setups. Is giving us a kit-less DPS elite specialization really nice? Absolutely.

Is it what this class truly needs right now? Absolutely not.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Chaith.8256:

Stacking group utility buffs isn’t the only way to provide value. If you are talking about some kind of min-maxed, highly discriminatory, fixed number GvG squad, I think giving up on equal representation of professions is a good starting point.

Group buffs are, actually, the only way to provide value in a WvW zerg. It’s the only real differentiating factor between the professions and their ranking in the hierarchy. Guardians are brought because of their AoE stability. Revenants are brought because of their increased boon duration and resistance. Elementalists are brought for might and water fields. Mesmers are brought for veils and alacrity. And so on.

And because boon/buff sharing is such an integral component to WvW success, and because most boons/buffs only have a 5-player limit, raid groups are generally structured with these professions in mind. This is why pretty much every raid group worth their salt has at least 2 guardians in every raid group, generally supported by a rev, necro, and mesmer/elementalist.

What results is a situation in which the professions that don’t provide much group utility, like thieves and engineers, end up in the “gutter” of the raid group, who don’t get very much if any of the boon support the main groups are getting—really only the proverbial scraps from the table. This only exacerbates the situation further, as it’s not a very fun experience being tossed around in WvW zerg fights because there’s no guardians in your group, nor is it when you’re going down to conditions because you have no necros, elementalists, or revs in your group either.

Chaith.8256:

Holosmith will add on to PvE builds, yes, highly min-maxed raids will take a Holosmith because of the core Engineer’s Pinpoint Precision raid wide buff, but they will also take a Holosmith because the Holosmith traitline improves the core Engineer’s DPS! Here you give no credit, as if Holosmith would be not even be used in PvE.

I think I misrepresented myself or you misunderstood me; let me explain.

Holosmith will certainly be used in PvE. It will be fun to play. It will provide (hopefully) a new play style that finally gets us away from 4-kit builds in fractals and raids. None of these statements are in dispute.

What is in dispute is the fact that Holosmith as a tree does not add any layers to the profession with regard to its role—a profession that ostensibly is supposed to be a jack-of-all-trades. I know you don’t play PvE much and granted I don’t much these days either; but a big reason behind my exodus is the literal gutting of our utility over the past 3 years, shifting us away from being a jack-of-all-trades to a bland, run of the mill DPS profession.

I am not refusing to acknowledge that personal damage is a tangibly useful addition. I think you’re just refusing to acknowledge that personal damage is already something engineer is quite good at. The purpose of elite specializations is to introduce new roles for each profession, or at least build on preexisting setups. Is giving us a kit-less DPS elite specialization really nice? Absolutely.

Is it what this class truly needs right now? Absolutely not.

So many elite specs added a dps spec to already DPS focused professions, how is the rule definition that elite specs add a new role?

Specs like Daredevil don’t do any change to a thief’s role in any mode nor get them out of the gutter in WvW boonshare squads – still objectively a great spec, viable, great flavor and fun. ArenaNet doesn’t conform to a rigid agenda of role diversity and certainly not trying to pump a new role out with each spec. Sorry it’s not suited to your ideals

Chaith.8256:

So many elite specs added a dps spec to already DPS focused professions, how is the rule definition that elite specs add a new role?

Elite specs don’t have to add new roles. I said they have to add new roles or at least build on a preexisting setup. The new guard and mesmer specializations are very good examples of elite specializations that don’t push the class in a new direction necessarily but at the very least enhance existing build setups (healway guard and illusion mesmer). It’s also why they’ll likely be two of the strongest elite specializations in Path of Fire, since ArenaNet has several points of inspiration to build off of, with traits and a play style that is natural to their given professions.

Chaith.8256:

Specs like Daredevil don’t do any change to a thief’s role in any mode nor get them out of the gutter in WvW boonshare squads – still objectively a great spec, viable, great flavor and fun. ArenaNet doesn’t conform to a rigid agenda of role diversity and certainly not trying to pump a new role out with each spec. Sorry it’s not suited to your ideals.

“Sorry it’s not suited to my ideals?” Why are you being so antagonistic?

The biggest issue with thief pre-Heart of Thorns was that they had almost zero cleave damage and very little sustain. They’ve always had exceptional single-target DPS, which made them quite effective duelists in PvP and roamers in WvW, but they never had a build that reasonably let them fight in the thick of battle or effectively cleave in team fights. The Daredevil trait line was like a straight injection of iron for a sustainability boost, and the staff gave them a significant, spammable PBAoE skill in Vault.

Daredevil addressed an obvious hole in the profession and effectively filled it. That thief is now getting a rifle to address their lack of ranged ability came as a surprise to nobody, as it was the obvious next hole to be filled for the profession. What holes is Holosmith filling, do you think? DPS, whether condi or power, AoE or single target, is not an issue for us. Team utility is a current issue for us, and they gave us an elite specialization that is purely selfish and offers zero utility.

To put it more bluntly, why it is okay that thief gets a DPS spec and why it’s not okay that engineer does is really simple: thief doesn’t have “support allies” in its job description.

Outside of venom share, thief just isn’t a support class and has no vague intentions of being seen as one. Their primary utility outside of dealing DPS is providing stackable stealth fields and blinds, which is why they were a dominant force of the dungeon speed-clear meta for three years. Do I need to review once again why engineer what made a contributing factor in dungeons and fractals too for years on end?

Personally I’m happy that Holosmith addresses the problem of lack of gap closers for close range builds and lack of elite spec dps roles. In my view that addresses the engineers current needs equally or better than the daredevil addressed the thief’s lack of down cleave and survivability.

Chaith.8256:

Personally I’m happy that Holosmith addresses the problem of lack of gap closers for close range builds and lack of elite spec dps roles. In my view that addresses the engineers current needs equally or better than the daredevil addressed the thief’s lack of down cleave and survivability.

Really Chaith… ‘lack of gap closers’? Really?

And you and I know very well that an Elite Spec can be a dps spec whilst also having a bit of support. Dragonhunter, prime example of that with it’s version Shield of Courage and Wings of Resolve.

The worst part is i suck at pvp and pve now so my argument isnt that strong but from what we know right now holo smith is far to good, it makes condi and power engi alot better for pve, for WvW we might not be number one on the list for GvGs but for solo and small group pvp we are so much better, for spvp holosmith will tank like a scrapper and do far more damage then a scrapper.

with the amount of buffs holosmith will give engi your title should be “why does the rest of engi suck”

Dirame.8521:

Really Chaith… ‘lack of gap closers’? Really?

And you and I know very well that an Elite Spec can be a dps spec whilst also having a bit of support. Dragonhunter, prime example of that with it’s version Shield of Courage and Wings of Resolve.

What do you mean: “really? really?” It’s been Scrapper for 2yrs and you can’t hit moving enemies with a Hammer, so yeah, new role as DPS will fix an infuriating problem in PvP. Can’t have a melee without targeted leaps or teleports and expect to do anything meaningful except kite and stall.

ukuni.8745:

The worst part is i suck at pvp and pve now so my argument isnt that strong but from what we know right now holo smith is far to good, it makes condi and power engi alot better for pve, for WvW we might not be number one on the list for GvGs but for solo and small group pvp we are so much better, for spvp holosmith will tank like a scrapper and do far more damage then a scrapper.

with the amount of buffs holosmith will give engi your title should be “why does the rest of engi suck”

It does look extremely strong, will be bringing huge added personal DPS to PvE and add the only Engi damage build on par with others to PvP, needless to say, it looks flavorful and fun. One of the coolest Elite specs other than Weaver, in my honest opinion.

(But muh GvG spot)

ITT:
People failing to understand that everyone has their favored playstyle(s), therefore imagine others to be stupid for not agreeing with them, and ending at each others throats.
Quit the vitriol and go back on topic, this is not the wvw forum^^

I don’t think we lack any gap-closers anymore. With the recent rocketboots changes, this hole seems filled for me.
And when it comes to lacking group support for gvg’s: how about you run something like this?
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqelUUh+sY9VwdLw6FLpF1XNEAjY4O0R3m4Idj9IA-T1xHABNpE0P1f8SPxPK/OZ/haPBAA8AAIFATKjA-w

Anyways, what I gathered from holosmith after reading the wiki entry on it, is that it will bring great mobility, dmg and given that we sacrifice other utilities, even decent cc.
So the pve crowd can celebrate that they now finally can provide the hams, too (without playing piano that is), but the strengths of this spec are to be found around the skill ceiling in spvp and roaming (as well as afk map completion, I guess).

Yea, it feels actually a bit hollow, since it doesn’t really provide much fields to blast it seems. In general it doesn’t really interact with the engineer. In fact, I wouldn’t notice any glaring issues if this were a stand-alone new class…
Scrapper came with some nice synergy to certain traits of our core spec, which made it interesting to play around with. Even tho the meta soon came to a grinding halt with a single spec, you actually could run the scrapper in several different ways, synergyzing with other lines in most cases…

But this?
Well… Dunno.
If this traitline were a person, I imagine it to be the loudmouth 1st-grader in gym-lessons that is always eager to be picked first because he thinks he can do everything best. And if you ask him about his team-mates (other traitlines), what they should do in the next match, he would be as confused as me. Holosmith seems to scream “I don’t care what you pick, at long as it doesn’t stand in my way”…

Whoever designed this… well did a great job at designing a traitline for a class. In fact he did such a great job that you could slap this traitline on top of any class (seriously, I don’t think mesmer would look to shabby with this).

Anyways, now we have it, so lets see how it performs in conjunction with the rest of our stuff.

Arantheal.7396:

I don’t think we lack any gap-closers anymore. With the recent rocketboots changes, this hole seems filled for me.

Using Rocket Boots to stick to running targets simply doesn’t work with Hammer or melee due to it’s lack of targeting, but I’ve have enjoying it to keep up with Pistol/Pistol builds. More talking about melee uptime than raw movement ability.

Arantheal.7396:

ITT:
People failing to understand that everyone has their favored playstyle(s), therefore imagine others to be stupid for not agreeing with them, and ending at each others throats.
Quit the vitriol and go back on topic, this is not the wvw forum^^

Yes clearly you’re correct in that there are different levels of excitement around Holosmith whether you were looking to GvG vs. PvP or PvE or WvW roam, but the point is slightly deeper than that:

Half ITT believe that Holosmith is a subpar design where the expectation is every elite spec promotes equal inclusiveness and diversity in all environments, and instead in this case, providing new ways of accentuating roles and modes where Engineer is already good at.

The fact is that multiple elite specs accentuate existing roles and already strong presence in certain modes for professions, and Holosmith isn’t crap because it does just that.

Chaith.8256:

Arantheal.7396:

ITT:
People failing to understand that everyone has their favored playstyle(s), therefore imagine others to be stupid for not agreeing with them, and ending at each others throats.
Quit the vitriol and go back on topic, this is not the wvw forum^^

Yes clearly you’re correct in that there are different levels of excitement around Holosmith whether you were looking to GvG vs. PvP or PvE or WvW roam, but the point is slightly deeper than that:

Half ITT believe that Holosmith is a subpar design where the expectation is every elite spec promotes equal inclusiveness and diversity in all environments, and instead in this case, providing new ways of accentuating roles and modes where Engineer is already good at.

The fact is that multiple elite specs accentuate existing roles and already strong presence in certain modes for professions, and Holosmith isn’t crap because it does just that.

No. It’s crap because it does JUST that AND what Arantheal said; Ignoring that the other trait lines even exist.

Chaith.8256:

Personally I’m happy that Holosmith addresses the problem of lack of gap closers for close range builds and lack of elite spec dps roles. In my view that addresses the engineers current needs equally or better than the daredevil addressed the thief’s lack of down cleave and survivability.

Dude, what? I think you owe to yourself to play the game a little bit longer before you make these kinds of statements. You’ve been gone a while and the game has changed a lot in your absence.

Not only does engineer not really need gap closures in the current state of the game, especially after the change made to Rocket Boots having 2 uses, but we’re also actually an effective roper/kiter.

Scrapper is actually used on certain raid bosses just on the basis of our significant access to super speed. But just to speak in terms I know you understand, Scrapper’s only real role in PvP currently is deliberately forcing 1v2s on side points. We have no role in team fights beyond power resses nor are we a traditional duelist. It’s not our job to chase anyone because we do not legitimately counter a single class in the current meta.

Just jump into WvW for a bit and see what it’s like while roaming. Between chained cripples with Box of Nails and Glob Shot, between our permanent swiftness and sizable super speed access, and between our stealth access, Scrapper is one of the most formidable roamers in 2017 and can just run away from any fights they’re losing so long as it’s not a thief.

I literally spend hours in WvW each week getting into 1v1s and then promptly kiting people so far away from me that I can even drop out of combat to teleport away when it turns into a 1v2 or 1v3.

a few of these traits have to be jokes that your seriously suggesting them. plasma penetration would be useless because you can get vulnerability from pretty much everywhere nowadays. blind does not stack so idk how you think that trait is going to work. if you have 20 stacks of burning it doesn’t matter what kind of skills are automatically triggering cause your going down and that’s not even considering the fact that the chrona burst would have a chance of over heating you

Phineas Poe.3018:

Chaith.8256:

Personally I’m happy that Holosmith addresses the problem of lack of gap closers for close range builds and lack of elite spec dps roles. In my view that addresses the engineers current needs equally or better than the daredevil addressed the thief’s lack of down cleave and survivability.

Dude, what? I think you owe to yourself to play the game a little bit longer before you make these kinds of statements. You’ve been gone a while and the game has changed a lot in your absence.

Not only does engineer not really need gap closures in the current state of the game, especially after the change made to Rocket Boots having 2 uses, but we’re also actually an effective roper/kiter.

Scrapper is actually used on certain raid bosses just on the basis of our significant access to super speed. But just to speak in terms I know you understand, Scrapper’s only real role in PvP currently is deliberately forcing 1v2s on side points. We have no role in team fights beyond power resses nor are we a traditional duelist. It’s not our job to chase anyone because we do not legitimately counter a single class in the current meta.

Just jump into WvW for a bit and see what it’s like while roaming. Between chained cripples with Box of Nails and Glob Shot, between our permanent swiftness and sizable super speed access, and between our stealth access, Scrapper is one of the most formidable roamers in 2017 and can just run away from any fights they’re losing so long as it’s not a thief.

I literally spend hours in WvW each week getting into 1v1s and then promptly kiting people so far away from me that I can even drop out of combat to teleport away when it turns into a 1v2 or 1v3.

You’re taking this so off topic but just to address some comments, I have played the latest Rocket Boots patch extensively, nothing you’re saying applies to me. Perhaps I should have worded it: “Holosmith fills the gap in that Engineer has no DPS builds that are on par outside of PvE” I mention gap closers because Rocket Boots is not quite translating into melee uptime for Scrapper, as I’ve stated in previous responses. It’s also more beneficial to save half or more charges for running due to the loss of another defensive utility.

Also lol @ Glob shot comment and Roaming with Scrapper. So you roam with E-Gun, Tool Kit, and Rocket Boots, Sneak Gyro. Glob Shot is obstructed 75% of the time, Scrapper is the most frustrating spec in PvP/WvW roaming, it’s rendered harmless and only useful in running from 1vX encounters. Scrapper can only kill those who refuse to run and impale themselves on Hammer #1-#2.

I know Engineer’s current role in PvP, and it’s shifted even further away from teamwork/reviving and towards 1vX. It’s not a great role, and core Engineer condi builds are becoming more useful than Scrapper half the time. The Scrapper is great for slow PvP metas where reviving and sustained point pressure are key, but the Engineer class could use a DPS spec for fast, off-point metas to actually contribute instead of being marginalized.

There’s so many reasons why Engineer needs to ditch the Scrapper tank in PvP and WvW roaming for one with actual killing power.

The question ITT is whether Holosmith is poorly designed or not without more integrated traits, and added GvG utility, I didn’t think we’d argue the need for a functioning DPS spec with gap closers among other DPS tools.

Chaith.8256:

Perhaps I should have worded it: “Holosmith fills the gap in that Engineer has no DPS builds that are on par outside of PvE” I mention gap closers because Rocket Boots is not quite translating into melee uptime for Scrapper, as I’ve stated in previous responses. It’s also more beneficial to save half or more charges for running due to the loss of another defensive utility.

I mean, you have the right of it with regard to gap closers and what the Holosmith will do for us. I’m not disagreeing that it’ll offer a nice change of pace either. I just don’t think what you’re describing is necessarily “big enough.”

Dragonhunter added damage to the guardian, but it also added AoE boons through traps, a group heal in the F2, and a literal projectile wall in the F3. While Dragonhunter isn’t commonly taken in WvW, it does work effectively under certain GvG compositions and it is used in PvP and PvE quite extensively.

The treatment we’re getting with Holosmith is very similar to what warriors got with the Berserker line. You can look at the current WvW meta and where warrior stands in it and figure out very quickly how much “more damage” means to a profession in the long run. Its usefulness in PvP is incredibly fragile, and while it’s taken in PvE, warriors are still generally seen only as a buff bot with no feasible change in status with Berserker.

Selfish, damage-oriented builds just aren’t very useful or game-changing in the grand scheme, and the engineer doesn’t have the benefit of being the best might stacker in the game to overlook it like the warrior does.

Chaith.8256:

Also lol @ Glob shot comment and Roaming with Scrapper. So you roam with E-Gun, Tool Kit, and Rocket Boots, Sneak Gyro. Glob Shot is obstructed 75% of the time, Scrapper is the most frustrating spec in PvP/WvW roaming, it’s rendered harmless and only useful in running from 1vX encounters. Scrapper can only kill those who refuse to run and impale themselves on Hammer #1-#2.

Glob Shot has gotten much better pathing over the past couple years and I personally have no problems landing it. But just because you asked, no, my setup is not generally running the Elixir Gun and Tool Kit in tandem. I usually run one or the other with either double gyros with Final Salvo or double elixirs with Adaptive Armor.

Scrapper has no issues chasing down targets, Chaith. With Streamlined Kits you get super speed literally just dropping into your Tool Kit, which makes you move very, very quickly when also blasting gyros for additional super speed. Rocket Charge isn’t a great gap closer outside of combat, but in combat it is much faster than normal run speed, even when they have swiftness.

And what is this absurd implication that we’re harmless, or that “the engineer needs to ditch the Scrapper tank in PvP and WvW roaming for one with actual killing power?” A full Marauder Scrapper can straight 100-0 somebody with two Toss Elixir Xs through Kinetic Battery. Now that they’ve changed the trait I’ll have to readjust my build, but Tools/Alchemy/Scrapper has no issue chasing or killing targets while roaming. The only class/build that consistently is hard to kill is the condition mesmer. Everyone else, including necros, just gets absolutely trashed within the timespan of a moa or two.

WvW isn’t PvP where players are limited to 1K power. A full Marauder Scrapper demolishes people, and has the sustain/escapes necessary to bail out of bad situations. It’s one of the best roamers in WvW for that reason currently, which is why many of us scratch our heads at the fact that we’re getting yet another roaming specialization.

redwing.9580:

a few of these traits have to be jokes that your seriously suggesting them. plasma penetration would be useless because you can get vulnerability from pretty much everywhere nowadays.

The vulnerability stacking is mainly for PvP and solo PvE.

redwing.9580:

blind does not stack so idk how you think that trait is going to work.

I’m sure you remember that Burning also did not stack once upon a time? So blind becoming stackable (only for Holosmith) is not impossible.

redwing.9580:

if you have 20 stacks of burning it doesn’t matter what kind of skills are automatically triggering cause your going down and that’s not even considering the fact that the chrona burst would have a chance of over heating you

20 stacks of burning never kills anyone instantly. They have a chance to cleanse it, so having conditions that can help protect the 20 stacks or add to it’s damage helps keep the burns ticking and the target’s end comes faster.
And If Corona burst has a chance of overheating you, then that’s the risk you take for choosing that trait. It’s not like there isn’t another trait that allows you to vent heat when you dodge.

Chaith.8256:

The question ITT is whether Holosmith is poorly designed or not without more integrated traits, and added GvG utility, I didn’t think we’d argue the need for a functioning DPS spec with gap closers among other DPS tools.

Would you agree that a “functioning” DPS spec needs to actually be able to counter one of the other professions in order to be effective as a dps spec in PvP?

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

The question ITT is whether Holosmith is poorly designed or not without more integrated traits, and added GvG utility, I didn’t think we’d argue the need for a functioning DPS spec with gap closers among other DPS tools.

Would you agree that a “functioning” DPS spec needs to actually be able to counter one of the other professions in order to be effective as a dps spec in PvP?

Yeah, but I’m sure Holosmith will counter lots of professions – Weaver, Spellbreaker, Scourge, these all look very fragile against power spike

Phineas Poe.3018:

First we agreed earlier that it’s not the Scrapper’s role to land the killing blow on anything, it’s a tank. This creates the need for an updated DPS role who’s job is to do that, like the Holosmith. Now you’re claiming Scrapper is a tank that can chase down and murder things without any trouble.. needless to say you’re greatly exaggerating the Scrapper’s killing power or have gotten too used to killing up-levels in WvW. Contradicting your past posts just to act like Holosmith is redundant lol

Holosmith’s killing power seems a bit over the line TBH… Been theorycrafting for a while now, both power and condi capabilities are very high. You can choose 3 defensive utility skills and still be a murder machine by the power of Photon Forge.

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

The question ITT is whether Holosmith is poorly designed or not without more integrated traits, and added GvG utility, I didn’t think we’d argue the need for a functioning DPS spec with gap closers among other DPS tools.

Would you agree that a “functioning” DPS spec needs to actually be able to counter one of the other professions in order to be effective as a dps spec in PvP?

Yeah, but I’m sure Holosmith will counter lots of professions – Weaver, Spellbreaker, Scourge, these all look very fragile against power spike

I sincerely doubt we’d be able to take on Spellbreakers and Scourge due to their boon hate and condi hate, of which we are currently packing ALOT of boons and condis. Arguments could be made for Weaver but Holosmith is definitely not a direct counter to it when comparing skills, traits and potential combos one might use on each class.

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

The question ITT is whether Holosmith is poorly designed or not without more integrated traits, and added GvG utility, I didn’t think we’d argue the need for a functioning DPS spec with gap closers among other DPS tools.

Would you agree that a “functioning” DPS spec needs to actually be able to counter one of the other professions in order to be effective as a dps spec in PvP?

Yeah, but I’m sure Holosmith will counter lots of professions – Weaver, Spellbreaker, Scourge, these all look very fragile against power spike

I sincerely doubt we’d be able to take on Spellbreakers and Scourge due to their boon hate and condi hate, of which we are currently packing ALOT of boons and condis. Arguments could be made for Weaver but Holosmith is definitely not a direct counter to it when comparing skills, traits and potential combos one might use on each class.

On the contrary i see the counters to scourge spellbreaker and weaver being pure power with not a reliance on boons and holo can certainly do that

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

The question ITT is whether Holosmith is poorly designed or not without more integrated traits, and added GvG utility, I didn’t think we’d argue the need for a functioning DPS spec with gap closers among other DPS tools.

Would you agree that a “functioning” DPS spec needs to actually be able to counter one of the other professions in order to be effective as a dps spec in PvP?

Yeah, but I’m sure Holosmith will counter lots of professions – Weaver, Spellbreaker, Scourge, these all look very fragile against power spike

I sincerely doubt we’d be able to take on Spellbreakers and Scourge due to their boon hate and condi hate, of which we are currently packing ALOT of boons and condis. Arguments could be made for Weaver but Holosmith is definitely not a direct counter to it when comparing skills, traits and potential combos one might use on each class.

On the contrary i see the counters to scourge spellbreaker and weaver being pure power with not a reliance on boons and holo can certainly do that

Exactly, holosmith is undoubtedly strong.

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

The question ITT is whether Holosmith is poorly designed or not without more integrated traits, and added GvG utility, I didn’t think we’d argue the need for a functioning DPS spec with gap closers among other DPS tools.

Would you agree that a “functioning” DPS spec needs to actually be able to counter one of the other professions in order to be effective as a dps spec in PvP?

Yeah, but I’m sure Holosmith will counter lots of professions – Weaver, Spellbreaker, Scourge, these all look very fragile against power spike

I sincerely doubt we’d be able to take on Spellbreakers and Scourge due to their boon hate and condi hate, of which we are currently packing ALOT of boons and condis. Arguments could be made for Weaver but Holosmith is definitely not a direct counter to it when comparing skills, traits and potential combos one might use on each class.

On the contrary i see the counters to scourge spellbreaker and weaver being pure power with not a reliance on boons and holo can certainly do that

Even if you go pure power, you’re going to need stability to fight any of those professions. Scourge and Spellbreaker will definitely take advantage of that, Scourge especially. Spellbreaker doesn’t even need you to have boons, in fact they thrive both when you have boons AND when you don’t. Not to mention their F2 ability which counters all things and will definitely be something for any melee character to avoid getting hit by.

When it comes to going up against other classes, the Holosmith has no immediately apparent advantage. It has no boon strip, no blocks, just CC and a 2 types of condis, burning and vulnerability. If it had any immediately apparent counters, I would concede that it could take down any of these professions.

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

The question ITT is whether Holosmith is poorly designed or not without more integrated traits, and added GvG utility, I didn’t think we’d argue the need for a functioning DPS spec with gap closers among other DPS tools.

Would you agree that a “functioning” DPS spec needs to actually be able to counter one of the other professions in order to be effective as a dps spec in PvP?

Yeah, but I’m sure Holosmith will counter lots of professions – Weaver, Spellbreaker, Scourge, these all look very fragile against power spike

I sincerely doubt we’d be able to take on Spellbreakers and Scourge due to their boon hate and condi hate, of which we are currently packing ALOT of boons and condis. Arguments could be made for Weaver but Holosmith is definitely not a direct counter to it when comparing skills, traits and potential combos one might use on each class.

On the contrary i see the counters to scourge spellbreaker and weaver being pure power with not a reliance on boons and holo can certainly do that

Even if you go pure power, you’re going to need stability to fight any of those professions. Scourge and Spellbreaker will definitely take advantage of that, Scourge especially. Spellbreaker doesn’t even need you to have boons, in fact they thrive both when you have boons AND when you don’t. Not to mention their F2 ability which counters all things and will definitely be something for any melee character to avoid getting hit by.

When it comes to going up against other classes, the Holosmith has no immediately apparent advantage. It has no boon strip, no blocks, just CC and a 2 types of condis, burning and vulnerability. If it had any immediately apparent counters, I would concede that it could take down any of these professions.

You don’t need stability to fight things that hard counter boons, that’s contradictory.

Look no farther for mechanics where Holosmith will counter other professions, it’s called persistent high sustained power dmg and a few good bursts on top.

Think of it like Invo Rev in its prime

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

The question ITT is whether Holosmith is poorly designed or not without more integrated traits, and added GvG utility, I didn’t think we’d argue the need for a functioning DPS spec with gap closers among other DPS tools.

Would you agree that a “functioning” DPS spec needs to actually be able to counter one of the other professions in order to be effective as a dps spec in PvP?

Yeah, but I’m sure Holosmith will counter lots of professions – Weaver, Spellbreaker, Scourge, these all look very fragile against power spike

I sincerely doubt we’d be able to take on Spellbreakers and Scourge due to their boon hate and condi hate, of which we are currently packing ALOT of boons and condis. Arguments could be made for Weaver but Holosmith is definitely not a direct counter to it when comparing skills, traits and potential combos one might use on each class.

On the contrary i see the counters to scourge spellbreaker and weaver being pure power with not a reliance on boons and holo can certainly do that

Even if you go pure power, you’re going to need stability to fight any of those professions. Scourge and Spellbreaker will definitely take advantage of that, Scourge especially. Spellbreaker doesn’t even need you to have boons, in fact they thrive both when you have boons AND when you don’t. Not to mention their F2 ability which counters all things and will definitely be something for any melee character to avoid getting hit by.

When it comes to going up against other classes, the Holosmith has no immediately apparent advantage. It has no boon strip, no blocks, just CC and a 2 types of condis, burning and vulnerability. If it had any immediately apparent counters, I would concede that it could take down any of these professions.

You don’t need stability to fight things that hard counter boons, that’s contradictory.

I guess you forgot all the stuns that can come out of a Spellbreaker?

Then again, like Kaizo said, if you run 3 defensive utilities then maybe.

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

The question ITT is whether Holosmith is poorly designed or not without more integrated traits, and added GvG utility, I didn’t think we’d argue the need for a functioning DPS spec with gap closers among other DPS tools.

Would you agree that a “functioning” DPS spec needs to actually be able to counter one of the other professions in order to be effective as a dps spec in PvP?

Yeah, but I’m sure Holosmith will counter lots of professions – Weaver, Spellbreaker, Scourge, these all look very fragile against power spike

I sincerely doubt we’d be able to take on Spellbreakers and Scourge due to their boon hate and condi hate, of which we are currently packing ALOT of boons and condis. Arguments could be made for Weaver but Holosmith is definitely not a direct counter to it when comparing skills, traits and potential combos one might use on each class.

On the contrary i see the counters to scourge spellbreaker and weaver being pure power with not a reliance on boons and holo can certainly do that

Even if you go pure power, you’re going to need stability to fight any of those professions. Scourge and Spellbreaker will definitely take advantage of that, Scourge especially. Spellbreaker doesn’t even need you to have boons, in fact they thrive both when you have boons AND when you don’t. Not to mention their F2 ability which counters all things and will definitely be something for any melee character to avoid getting hit by.

When it comes to going up against other classes, the Holosmith has no immediately apparent advantage. It has no boon strip, no blocks, just CC and a 2 types of condis, burning and vulnerability. If it had any immediately apparent counters, I would concede that it could take down any of these professions.

You don’t need stability to fight things that hard counter boons, that’s contradictory.

I guess you forgot all the stuns that can come out of a Spellbreaker?

Then again, like Kaizo said, if you run 3 defensive utilities then maybe.

I’m confident power holosmith is going to do fine with 2-3 defensive skills. Obviously core engi won’t since it won’t be able to deal any damage with just the main weapon, but holosmith has PF which from what we’ve seen, is hella strong.
But let’s all just wait 4 more days and decide shall we?

Chaith.8256:

First we agreed earlier that it’s not the Scrapper’s role to land the killing blow on anything, it’s a tank. This creates the need for an updated DPS role who’s job is to do that, like the Holosmith. Now you’re claiming Scrapper is a tank that can chase down and murder things without any trouble.. needless to say you’re greatly exaggerating the Scrapper’s killing power or have gotten too used to killing up-levels in WvW. Contradicting your past posts just to act like Holosmith is redundant lol

Chaith, I am not contradicting myself. WvW and PvP are played very differently and have very different metas. Scrapper in WvW is not a tank. It’s a frontline DPS. It’s not uncommon to see people wear full Marauder or a mix of Marauder armor with Berserker jewelry/weapons. How glassy you get depends greatly on how much condi damage the other servers are running, the quality of your guardians and elementalists, and your own personal ability as a player.

I’m sure you were being tongue-in-cheek with regard to “killing up-levels,” but we are years removed from the GWEN/hammer-train meta where everyone ran PVT armor. Celestial is just about as tanky as builds get these days. Like I said, man. You’ve been gone a while and a lot has changed. We don’t need a melee DPS spec in WvW and we don’t need a roaming spec. We don’t need a selfish DPS spec for PvE either.

We need something that we can call our own.

It doesn’t have to be a unique boon anything, but it’s kind of pathetic that Druid, a support spec, gets Grace of the Land and we get jack. The only thing we contribute to a raid group is Pinpoint Precision, which is barely useful and is no where near as big a raid buff as other classes contribute.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Chaith.8256:

First we agreed earlier that it’s not the Scrapper’s role to land the killing blow on anything, it’s a tank. This creates the need for an updated DPS role who’s job is to do that, like the Holosmith. Now you’re claiming Scrapper is a tank that can chase down and murder things without any trouble.. needless to say you’re greatly exaggerating the Scrapper’s killing power or have gotten too used to killing up-levels in WvW. Contradicting your past posts just to act like Holosmith is redundant lol

Chaith, I am not contradicting myself. WvW and PvP are played very differently and have very different metas. Scrapper in WvW is not a tank. It’s a frontline DPS. It’s not uncommon to see people wear full Marauder or a mix of Marauder armor with Berserker jewelry/weapons. How glassy you get depends greatly on how much condi damage the other servers are running, the quality of your guardians and elementalists, and your own personal ability as a player.

I’m sure you were being tongue-in-cheek with regard to “killing up-levels,” but we are years removed from the GWEN/hammer-train meta where everyone ran PVT armor. Celestial is just about as tanky as builds get these days. Like I said, man. You’ve been gone a while and a lot has changed. We don’t need a melee DPS spec in WvW and we don’t need a roaming spec. We don’t need a selfish DPS spec for PvE either.

We need something that we can call our own.

It doesn’t have to be a unique boon anything, but it’s kind of pathetic that Druid, a support spec, gets Grace of the Land and we get jack. The only thing we contribute to a raid group is Pinpoint Precision, which is barely useful and is no where near as big a raid buff as other classes contribute.

You keep going back to WvW group content, I’m just talking about Scrapper’s limitations in a small scale environment like roaming or PvP. But just to entertain the idea, if Scrapper is such a great frontline DPS that can murder people in WvW group content, why do you also claim Holosmith needs to fix the problem of no WvW groups want a Scrapper?

So about: We need something that we can call our own. Holosmiths can still bring Pinpoint Distribution.

Holosmith in my prediction will be already more viable in more game modes than Scrapper, personally I think having a sick group buff on top of Pinpoint will make Holosmith highly sought after in every game mode.

Upgraded an already competitive PvE raid performance, check,
Upgrade for PvP, check,
Upgrade for roaming encounters in WvW, check,
WvW raids, holy hell we need Holosmiths in here?

Holosmith looks OP already

Edit: Maybe ArenaNet will make Scrapper into a master of WvW group content as it’s much more suited to doing so in it’s concept. Honestly I’m not sure why otherwise anyone would play a Scrapper after Holosmith comes out, except if you like really drawn out fights in PvP

I agree with Chaith… Core engi/scrapper loses considerable damage if you choose defensive skills, holosmith doesn’t lose much. Holo will definitely be tankier, stronger, and just better at everything. Look at the arena skill… a few good seconds of fury and protection and on top of that AOE CC toolbelt skill. The burn damage capabilities, the spike damage, the survivability, they’re just too good.

The Photon Forge mode is simply worth 2 offensive kits/skills. And that isn’t something you can just ignore.

Kaizoku.1298:

I agree with Chaith… Core engi/scrapper loses considerable damage if you choose defensive skills, holosmith doesn’t lose much. Holo will definitely be tankier, stronger, and just better at everything. Look at the arena skill… a few good seconds of fury and protection and on top of that AOE CC toolbelt skill. The burn damage capabilities, the spike damage, the survivability, they’re just too good.

The Photon Forge mode is simply worth 2 offensive kits/skills. And that isn’t something you can just ignore.

I think we’ve gotten away from what the topic actually is about; THE TRAITS. The skills could be the best thing in the world, but the traits are a disservice to those skills.

All you need to do is take anyone of the builds you’ve apparently theorycrafted and ask yourself whether those builds would really be significantly different depending on the traits you selected in the Holosmith line. The answer I’m predicting would be; no.

What you will end up wishing is that you could use the Holosmith with a different trait line other than the Holosmith’s own trait line.

We’ve talked about this long enough. The preview weekend is on Friday. I will revisit this topic after that.

Dirame.8521:

Kaizoku.1298:

I agree with Chaith… Core engi/scrapper loses considerable damage if you choose defensive skills, holosmith doesn’t lose much. Holo will definitely be tankier, stronger, and just better at everything. Look at the arena skill… a few good seconds of fury and protection and on top of that AOE CC toolbelt skill. The burn damage capabilities, the spike damage, the survivability, they’re just too good.

The Photon Forge mode is simply worth 2 offensive kits/skills. And that isn’t something you can just ignore.

I think we’ve gotten away from what the topic actually is about; THE TRAITS. The skills could be the best thing in the world, but the traits are a disservice to those skills.

All you need to do is take anyone of the builds you’ve apparently theorycrafted and ask yourself whether those builds would really be significantly different depending on the traits you selected in the Holosmith line. The answer I’m predicting would be; no.

What you will end up wishing is that you could use the Holosmith with a different trait line other than the Holosmith’s own trait line.

We’ve talked about this long enough. The preview weekend is on Friday. I will revisit this topic after that.

Actually I’m liking the holosmith traits. It looks like you can choose different playstyles too.

Dirame.8521:

I think we’ve gotten away from what the topic actually is about; THE TRAITS. The skills could be the best thing in the world, but the traits are a disservice to those skills.

All you need to do is take anyone of the builds you’ve apparently theorycrafted and ask yourself whether those builds would really be significantly different depending on the traits you selected in the Holosmith line. The answer I’m predicting would be; no.

What you will end up wishing is that you could use the Holosmith with a different trait line other than the Holosmith’s own trait line.

We’ve talked about this long enough. The preview weekend is on Friday. I will revisit this topic after that.

Literally dont have to take alchemy to deal with conditions anymore unless you really want to overkill it on condition removal

Dirame.8521:

I think we’ve gotten away from what the topic actually is about; THE TRAITS. The skills could be the best thing in the world, but the traits are a disservice to those skills.

All you need to do is take anyone of the builds you’ve apparently theorycrafted and ask yourself whether those builds would really be significantly different depending on the traits you selected in the Holosmith line. The answer I’m predicting would be; no.

What you will end up wishing is that you could use the Holosmith with a different trait line other than the Holosmith’s own trait line.

No, originally it was a problem you had with too little interaction between Holosmith and core spec traits. The Holosmith traits are VERY good, you would never hypothetically wish to just have photon forge separate from Holosmith traits in any game mode.

Holosmith builds will play so differently based on trait choices, especially the master and grandmaster choices.

Your original complaint was the one that subjectively had a basis for argument

ukuni.8745:

Dirame.8521:

I think we’ve gotten away from what the topic actually is about; THE TRAITS. The skills could be the best thing in the world, but the traits are a disservice to those skills.

All you need to do is take anyone of the builds you’ve apparently theorycrafted and ask yourself whether those builds would really be significantly different depending on the traits you selected in the Holosmith line. The answer I’m predicting would be; no.

What you will end up wishing is that you could use the Holosmith with a different trait line other than the Holosmith’s own trait line.

We’ve talked about this long enough. The preview weekend is on Friday. I will revisit this topic after that.

Literally dont have to take alchemy to deal with conditions anymore unless you really want to overkill it on condition removal

You can do that right now. Holosmith doesn’t need to be in the game for you to do without Alchemy.

Chaith.8256:

No, originally it was a problem you had with too little interaction between Holosmith and core spec traits. The Holosmith traits are VERY good, you would never hypothetically wish to just have photon forge separate from Holosmith traits in any game mode.

Holosmith builds will play so differently based on trait choices, especially the master and grandmaster choices.

Your original complaint was the one that subjectively had a basis for argument

My original complaint was, the traits are bad because they fail to synergize with the core profession, they only focus on using one mechanic and they don’t add much variety to the specialization it’s focusing on anyway. If the playstyles only focus on using one mechanic and they still manage to vary wildly when you start to go through the minutiae of how to play them, then I’ll gladly eat my words with a bacon sandwich.

Chaith.8256:

You keep going back to WvW group content, I’m just talking about Scrapper’s limitations in a small scale environment like roaming or PvP.

I do apologize that I keep going all over the place. But understand that WvW is a bit of a dynamic game mode and has shifting party sizes that greatly adjust the viability of certain builds. When talking about WvW it’s important to denote a class’s ability to perform in large-scale, small-scale, AND roaming. A staff guardian, for example, isn’t very useful in small-scale or solo roaming, but it’s a stalwart to every WvW raid group. That said, guard does have plenty of options for small-scale and solo roaming in both the Dragonhunter and core Meditations builds.

It’s important that when gauging the health of a profession, at least as far as it pertains to WvW, you grade it on the basis of all situations. I don’t mean to be so slippery with my argument, it’s just that the engineer as a profession has always been strong in small-scale and solo roaming and has almost always been relatively weak in WvW raid groups. This is the point I am (poorly) trying to deliver.

Chaith.8256:

But just to entertain the idea, if Scrapper is such a great frontline DPS that can murder people in WvW group content, why do you also claim Holosmith needs to fix the problem of no WvW groups want a Scrapper?

Because DPS is abundant in WvW and most professions have ample access to it while providing some kind of utility upside. Look at burn guardian, for example. It does a punishing amount of DPS while also providing AoE stability for their raid group, reduced condi damage and duration from the opposing zerg through Purging Flames, and easy might stacks through Empower.

Necromancer and revenant are really the bread-and-butter DPS classes of Heart of Thorns WvW though, and both of them offer great damage output while providing significant utility through boon stripping and resistance, respectively.

While the Scrapper does offer some team utility through Sneak Gyro’s reveal, a “big” water field through the Medic Gyro’s toolbelt skill, or the Elixir Gun/Elixir R, its skills never feel as impactful/useful as what other professions bring to the table, or its skills are crippled behind arduous gameplay mechanics.

Take, for example, Elixir R over Warbanner. Warbanner has 300 radius, immediately resurrects its targets, and even pulses boons on drop (including regen when traited). Elixir R, on the other hand, is a projectile that can be blocked/reflected, isn’t instant and pulses over time, and only has 180 radius. While this discrepancy is made up in their cooldown differences, Warbanner is a far more more impactful and effective skill, and warriors are now getting boon strip ability in the Spellbreaker. As such, when you come up with statements like this…

Chaith.8256:

Holosmiths can still bring Pinpoint Distribution.

…It almost, no offense, comes across as almost a joke.

Pinpoint Precision is, at best, a 2-3% damage increase for a single raid group. Compare this to Grace of the Land, a trait that the Druid, a healer specialization gets, which increases both power and condi damage by 2% per stack, for a total of 10% … to ten players.

No Druid obviously maintains 5 stacks, but they maintain more than enough to be competitive with Pinpoint Precision—on a profession specialization that also provides real, genuine boon support.

This class is going to be in pretty dire straits come the expansion unless Holosmith sees some radical changes. Heck, after last week’s patch condi engi does barely more DPS than a condi PS warrior does. In fact, condi PS warriors now do over 30K DPS.

Dirame.8521:

ukuni.8745:

Dirame.8521:

I think we’ve gotten away from what the topic actually is about; THE TRAITS. The skills could be the best thing in the world, but the traits are a disservice to those skills.

All you need to do is take anyone of the builds you’ve apparently theorycrafted and ask yourself whether those builds would really be significantly different depending on the traits you selected in the Holosmith line. The answer I’m predicting would be; no.

What you will end up wishing is that you could use the Holosmith with a different trait line other than the Holosmith’s own trait line.

We’ve talked about this long enough. The preview weekend is on Friday. I will revisit this topic after that.

Literally dont have to take alchemy to deal with conditions anymore unless you really want to overkill it on condition removal

You can do that right now. Holosmith doesn’t need to be in the game for you to do without Alchemy.

lemme guess you doit by taking scrapper and purge gyro and this build still uses alchemy and inventions.

Kaizoku.1298:

Holosmith’s killing power seems a bit over the line TBH… Been theorycrafting for a while now, both power and condi capabilities are very high. You can choose 3 defensive utility skills and still be a murder machine by the power of Photon Forge.

That is kind of the point of Holosmith design. It is a High DPS but sacrifice Utility type of Elite Spec.

While it does lack utility for group buffs and benefits, it intensionally sacrifice it for having very high DPS.

Not a very popular choice of design for a class/job/elite spec in games since it is most often called a “Selfish Class/Job” but it returns with High DPS that can surpass other Jobs that normally would require buffs to reach the DPS Numbers for the other class/job/elite spec.

ukuni.8745:

Dirame.8521:

ukuni.8745:

Dirame.8521:

I think we’ve gotten away from what the topic actually is about; THE TRAITS. The skills could be the best thing in the world, but the traits are a disservice to those skills.

All you need to do is take anyone of the builds you’ve apparently theorycrafted and ask yourself whether those builds would really be significantly different depending on the traits you selected in the Holosmith line. The answer I’m predicting would be; no.

What you will end up wishing is that you could use the Holosmith with a different trait line other than the Holosmith’s own trait line.

We’ve talked about this long enough. The preview weekend is on Friday. I will revisit this topic after that.

Literally dont have to take alchemy to deal with conditions anymore unless you really want to overkill it on condition removal

You can do that right now. Holosmith doesn’t need to be in the game for you to do without Alchemy.

lemme guess you doit by taking scrapper and purge gyro and this build still uses alchemy and inventions.

Scrapper runs literally zero elixirs most of the time. You get very little condi cleanse from Alchemy as a trait line outside of Transmute.

You run Alchemy primarily for HGH to reduce the cooldown on your Elixir Gun skills, and for the obvious defensive advantages of Self-Regulating Defenses and Protection Injection.

Condi cleanse in PvP is almost entirely covered by the Purge Gyro and the Healing Turret. I don’t see why Holosmith would be any different with the Purge Gyro replaced by the Photon Forge (with traits).

Whether we take Alchemy will depend entirely on whether or not we need survivability traits or if the spec depends on the Elixir Gun as much as the Scrapper does. Condi cleanse has very little to do with it.

eg 5 and toolbelt cleanse a condi too since they are elixirs

insanemaniac.2456:

eg 5 and toolbelt cleanse a condi too since they are elixirs

That’s still not very much in the grand scheme, especially with the Heart of Thorns condi spam.

Alchemy ultimately has much more identity than a “condi cleanse” tree, and it’s currently taken for much more than that.

Whether Holosmith can survive without it remains to be seen. But it won’t be explicitly because of a lack of condition cleanse without it.

Phineas Poe.3018:

insanemaniac.2456:

eg 5 and toolbelt cleanse a condi too since they are elixirs

That’s still not very much in the grand scheme, especially with the Heart of Thorns condi spam.

Alchemy ultimately has much more identity than a “condi cleanse” tree, and it’s currently taken for much more than that.

Whether Holosmith can survive without it remains to be seen. But it won’t be explicitly because of a lack of condition cleanse without it.

Passive Elixir B, S, Healing Mist, Super Elixir, all equate to around 9 conditions removed a minute if spammed on cooldown, it amounts to something

Edit: Like 3 instant condi removals if you get jumped by 3 people and can’t get a cast off as you get bursted down.

ukuni.8745:

Dirame.8521:

ukuni.8745:

Dirame.8521:

I think we’ve gotten away from what the topic actually is about; THE TRAITS. The skills could be the best thing in the world, but the traits are a disservice to those skills.

All you need to do is take anyone of the builds you’ve apparently theorycrafted and ask yourself whether those builds would really be significantly different depending on the traits you selected in the Holosmith line. The answer I’m predicting would be; no.

What you will end up wishing is that you could use the Holosmith with a different trait line other than the Holosmith’s own trait line.

We’ve talked about this long enough. The preview weekend is on Friday. I will revisit this topic after that.

Literally dont have to take alchemy to deal with conditions anymore unless you really want to overkill it on condition removal

You can do that right now. Holosmith doesn’t need to be in the game for you to do without Alchemy.

lemme guess you doit by taking scrapper and purge gyro and this build still uses alchemy and inventions.

Actually I just run tools with Gadgeteer or Kinetic Battery, gaining superspeed from either Rocket Boots or using toolbelts, combine that with 100% swiftness uptime, and with Adaptive Armour, and Rapid Regeneration and you get good passive regen. The toolbelt skill from your Crate Elite gives you a full condi wipe and voila! you can manage condis relatively well. Also Rocket boots allows you to run away and come back which also helps.

Dirame.8521:

ukuni.8745:

Dirame.8521:

ukuni.8745:

Dirame.8521:

I think we’ve gotten away from what the topic actually is about; THE TRAITS. The skills could be the best thing in the world, but the traits are a disservice to those skills.

All you need to do is take anyone of the builds you’ve apparently theorycrafted and ask yourself whether those builds would really be significantly different depending on the traits you selected in the Holosmith line. The answer I’m predicting would be; no.

What you will end up wishing is that you could use the Holosmith with a different trait line other than the Holosmith’s own trait line.

We’ve talked about this long enough. The preview weekend is on Friday. I will revisit this topic after that.

Literally dont have to take alchemy to deal with conditions anymore unless you really want to overkill it on condition removal

You can do that right now. Holosmith doesn’t need to be in the game for you to do without Alchemy.

lemme guess you doit by taking scrapper and purge gyro and this build still uses alchemy and inventions.

Actually I just run tools with Gadgeteer or Kinetic Battery, gaining superspeed from either Rocket Boots or using toolbelts, combine that with 100% swiftness uptime, and with Adaptive Armour, and Rapid Regeneration and you get good passive regen. The toolbelt skill from your Crate Elite gives you a full condi wipe and voila! you can manage condis relatively well. Also Rocket boots allows you to run away and come back which also helps.

so have you beaten many equally skilled players that are using condis with that build befor?

Phineas Poe.3018:

ukuni.8745:

Dirame.8521:

ukuni.8745:

Dirame.8521:

I think we’ve gotten away from what the topic actually is about; THE TRAITS. The skills could be the best thing in the world, but the traits are a disservice to those skills.

All you need to do is take anyone of the builds you’ve apparently theorycrafted and ask yourself whether those builds would really be significantly different depending on the traits you selected in the Holosmith line. The answer I’m predicting would be; no.

What you will end up wishing is that you could use the Holosmith with a different trait line other than the Holosmith’s own trait line.

We’ve talked about this long enough. The preview weekend is on Friday. I will revisit this topic after that.

Literally dont have to take alchemy to deal with conditions anymore unless you really want to overkill it on condition removal

You can do that right now. Holosmith doesn’t need to be in the game for you to do without Alchemy.

lemme guess you doit by taking scrapper and purge gyro and this build still uses alchemy and inventions.

Scrapper runs literally zero elixirs most of the time. You get very little condi cleanse from Alchemy as a trait line outside of Transmute.

You run Alchemy primarily for HGH to reduce the cooldown on your Elixir Gun skills, and for the obvious defensive advantages of Self-Regulating Defenses and Protection Injection.

Condi cleanse in PvP is almost entirely covered by the Purge Gyro and the Healing Turret. I don’t see why Holosmith would be any different with the Purge Gyro replaced by the Photon Forge (with traits).

Whether we take Alchemy will depend entirely on whether or not we need survivability traits or if the spec depends on the Elixir Gun as much as the Scrapper does. Condi cleanse has very little to do with it.

actually every build outside of running a bunker scrapper requires alchemy and elixir gun to deal with conditions, bunker scrapper might require the boon stacking for its offensive capability’s but other builds that dont try to stack boons for offensive capability use it so they can clear a few condis, unless your like dirame over here trying to use a single 44 second cd full clear to deal with condition based enemys, so yes if your not running a bunker scrapper build your literally going to need to take either alchemy or that one holosmith trait to deal with conditions and id say thats a pritty big deal for a single trait.

and to add, ive played glass cannon scrapper more then anyone else in this thread and you absolutely need alchemy not only for the auto elixir S but for that small amount of passive condi clear to ensure i just dont outright die from a condi burst befor getting a second chance to burst on my target, with the amount of save me skills and traits going around its just way to risky to assume your going to be able to wipe your enemy off the field in one go befor they can retaliate