Guild Wars 2

Fellow Engineers,
Our class has been the subject of debate over power, utility and general usefulness. There is a great concern that our peer classes have a much higher team potential but at the same time a growing support has sprouted withing the community. My goal is to strengthen this support and increase our ranks. With that being said I’d like to address one of the major issues concerning our role in the game.
Engineers are unique. We have an array of tools that help with team support, DPS, and even front line aggro holders. The term “Jack of all Trades” comes to mind, however this is not entirely true. We have flaws, big flaws even which limit our capabilities. Do not take this as a bad thing. If the game wasn’t balanced it would be no fun. Our true potential however, comes from the creativity of our own minds.
I cannot express enough to experiment with every nook and cranny of this class. You never know what niche you may find for yourself. For an example; one of my favorite builds is a support bomb build that stacks might and vulnerability while simultaneously healing harder than any guardian I’ve ever encountered. This is just one example, and there are many many more builds that work well. That’s the beauty of this class. I could spend hours explaining the ins and outs of every trait, ability, synergies or play style but, this is not my major point.
The only drawback to this class is that it does have a bit of a learning curve. It takes time and most of all patience to figure out what you like best and how to play it. Fear not, as the rewards are far greater than the investment.
In conclusion, I offer a challenge to beginners and veterans alike to show their support for possibly one of the most fun classes in the game. Please feel free to message me here or in game if you are looking for help, or hold concerns. I have done extensive research and would love to share my resources with you.

the biggest drawback is that no matter how good an engineer player is, he has to try really, really hard to beat a new player playing condi necro for the first time. hard counters. anet tactics.

I fail to see a problem with that. In every MMO that I’ve played, there will be a class that has natural advantages over other classes, or is just a bit unbalanced. I never said engineers are easy to play. In fact they are probably one of the hardest to play. I did say that once you learn how to, you will enjoy it. I wouldn’t recommend engineers to people who just want to play an easy character.

it’s ok for a necro to have an advantage over an engi. that’s fine, but this is not the case. necros literally ALWAYS poop on engineers. there’s no room to outplay the necro. none. it’s just done. necro wins 100% of the time assuming skill level of both players are the same or similar. now compare it with something like thieves vs guardians. guardians have the advantage but a good thief can still win.

ellesee.8297:

it’s ok for a necro to have an advantage over an engi. that’s fine, but this is not the case. necros literally ALWAYS poop on engineers. there’s no room to outplay the necro. none. it’s just done. necro wins 100% of the time assuming skill level of both players are the same or similar. now compare it with something like thieves vs guardians. guardians have the advantage but a good thief can still win.

I think you are picking the wrong characters with thief v guardian I don’t see those 2 as natural counters this is also very very build dependent.

Put your guardian v mesmer and you will find that the mesmer should always win that fight running the popular builds on both classes. You go to the guardian forums and mesmer is probably the top class they have trouble with if you polled.

If you are fighting a wellomancer power necro I don’t see why you can’t win on a engi v necro. Right now wellomancer power necro isn’t popular but if there is a shift in builds then it could return.

Warrior v engi shouldn’t be much of a problem for engi. You can usually go to any of the subforums to get a idea of what class give another class troubles.

You post on the mesmer forums that you are losing to guardians and need help and you will probably get l2p.

engineers easily loose to condi necros because we have terrible condi removal. that isnt ltp, thats bad balance

am i the only one who knows about automated response? condi necros cant do kitten against that.

DrMatt.9408:

that isnt ltp, thats bad balance

why do you say this?

because no matter how good the engi is, if a condi necro has the slighest knowledge on how to play his class, he wins 100% of the time. no room for counterplay at all. none.

Automated response only kicks in at 25% health, and even then it only affects NEW conditions, so if you already have bleed/burning stacks you are screwed. And guess what, despite this massive drawback, devs are nerfing AR to the ground anyway in next patch! If you think things are bad atm, they are gonna get a lot worse.

ellesee.8297:

because no matter how good the engi is, if a condi necro has the slighest knowledge on how to play his class, he wins 100% of the time. no room for counterplay at all. none.

ok so automated response or diamond skin type hard counters need to be eliminated because theyre too much of a blanket counter. take gen 1 pokemon for example. the psychic type was blatantly OP because only ghost moves could hit it hard, but ghost moves sucked and there was only gengar. in gen 2-5 gamefreak added dark and steel and a bunch of ghosts/moves (dark is bad as a hard counter, but only affected ~20% of types and has some bad weaknesses to check it from becoming op).

so basically if every build is checked by a few things out of many, then we can have reasonable diversity. it doesnt really matter if its a hard counter or a combination of soft counters that give a distinct advantage, as long as there are multiple ways around it. and in part, thats why ar/ds is bad… it hard counters 1 of 2 ways to deal damage. just straight up. no exceptions. not 1 of 15. not with the caveat that bleeds can still be applied (or similar).

i think actually a perversion of the typical smogon technical terms (competitive pokemon website) is applicable here and we ought to be making our own definitions of “check” and “counter” and “hard counter.” as an example, condi necro hard counters engi because all engi builds have weak condi removal while condi necro has strong condi spam and strong condi manipulation. but engi counters power warrior due to prot injection and superior gap manipulation (among other things). warriors can still win, but its an uphill battle (as opposed to face → wall like condi necro). and finally, d/x + x(/x) thief checks engi and vice versa, its a very volatile match and highly skill dependent… neither wants to face the other -- engi dont wanna be backstabbed and thief cant take condi spam or direct burst — but neither can mitigate the other’s damage effectively enough to be a counter. (idk check is harder to really put into words).

but anyways, since condi necro is basically our only hard counter (of 8 classes and at least 15 build + class combos… condi/power of anything, excepting condi guardian), i dont really think its that big of an issue that engi has to run from condi necros, and pretty much only from condi necros. in fact, i think we need to be forced to run from a couple more builds.

tl dr
if engi doesnt need to run from any matchup, engi is op because engi also has matchups where he can force the enemy to flee or die.

and then you have something like a thief who has hard matchups against like engis or guardians and they are able to come out on top if they play well. bad matchups are fine. that’s rock paper scissors balance. 100% hard counters like condi necros vs engis is essentially the same as diamond skin or automated response. bad design.

Get where you are coming from but automated response is not a hard counter to a condition build, it is a hard counter to bad players. Here is how you beat automated response if you are playing a condition build:

Overwhelm engineer with multiple different conditions. Engineer has terrible condition cleanse options, so he will rarely be able to cleanse all of them. Therefore if you apply burning/bleeding first and then cover that with other conditions like torment/poison/weakness/chill/cripple, all of which the condition necro has easy access to, the engineer is unlikely to survive. If the engineer somehow manages to cleanse all damaging conditions in time when he gets below 25% health and AR kicks in, as soon as he heals above 25%, condition spam him again, he will have no condition cleanse left and you will kill him. You might even consider holding back some condition burst e.g. burning for this very reason, rather than facerolling all your skills at the beginning and expecting the engineer to melt.

And on the subject of hard-counters, how about the warrior, who has access to:

Endure Pain: Immunity to ALL damage for 4 secs. Add on the defy pain grandmaster trait and you get endure pain twice: 8 secs of GODMODE (10 secs when traited).

Berserker Stance: Immunity to ALL new conditions for 8 secs (10 secs when traited). This is arguably far superior to AR, as you can use it before you hit 25% health. Yet this is ok but AR is OP? ROFL

Add on healing signet, adrenal health, cleansing ire, melandru runes, – 40% food etc etc and you really do get a hard counter to condition builds.

There are obviously ways in which good players can work around these warrior skills/traits, but the same can be said for AR, arguably more so in fact, which is the point I am making here.

So many double standards and inconsistencies in this game when it comes to class balance. I rarely post on the forum but when the engineer gets nerfed just because bad players can’t accept loosing to us I get really annoyed.

Look, every class has some other class or build that is tough for it (save warrior but don’t get me started on warrior).

I have zero problem with the fact that a condition based necromancer is tough for an engineer, anymore than I have a problem treating thieves as easy kills.

Our condition cleansing is meh. Though, in fairness, it isn’t horrible. HT, E-Gun. light field projectile finishers (shield really) etc. The problem tends to be that each has a timing element. There is no fast removal and we have too few projectile finishers really to use that light field effectively.

The engineer does VERY well removing other people’s conditions with light fields and fumigate but it’s our weakness.

Don’t blow your condition removal on things which you can regenerate out of.

sure Engineers are fun and have a variety of imaginative builds, but the mindset of the community ruin any imaginative ability we have.
Even on this thread most people are saying that strong condi. built necromancers beating engineers is ‘completely unfair’, but it’s just the one flaw of our profession being taken advantage of. It’s completely fair, it’s just that GW2 is a team game where you have to find the counter to every build/spec in order to win.

Engineers have a huge advantage over Thieves. Condi necromancers have a huge advantage over us, and so it continues. The playerbase just need to change the way they think about balance a bit, and then we will be appreciated as much as our profession should be by everyone.

Also (from an sPvPers perspective) i’m not ‘allowed’ to be any build that isn’t the FOTM in high rated pvp, because it’s not the most famous and supposedly ‘best’ build out there. This instantly stops me from being able to make imaginative builds in competitive play. always has to go back to the power stacking rifle buid.

Bombsaway.7198:

Look, every class has some other class or build that is tough for it (save warrior but don’t get me started on warrior).

gets you started
make any power warrior run away (just beware eviscerate)
make any condi warrior run lolololol

insanemaniac.2456:

Bombsaway.7198:

Look, every class has some other class or build that is tough for it (save warrior but don’t get me started on warrior).

gets you started
make any power warrior run away (just beware eviscerate)
make any condi warrior run lolololol

A warrior with hammer/ axe+shield will eat you. Or any warrior with hammer, for that matter.

Uhtameit.2413:

insanemaniac.2456:

Bombsaway.7198:

Look, every class has some other class or build that is tough for it (save warrior but don’t get me started on warrior).

gets you started
make any power warrior run away (just beware eviscerate)
make any condi warrior run lolololol

A warrior with hammer/ axe+shield will eat you. Or any warrior with hammer, for that matter.

false
i have fought against exactly this matchup and it was a skill match. we fought for about 5 mins until i took a bad evisc. the axe autos hurt but the engi has the cc to kite effectively so you dont end up taking too many. as i said, beware eviscerate.

you eat any hammer wielder alive with the 53% cc’d damage reduction, warriors just cant stay on that weapon. if they do, they lose. seriously.

That warrior must not have been using Endure Pain and Balanced Stance/Rune of Lyssa properly then. Otherwise he can just nullify your burst and keep you from cc-ing him.

In the end you’ll take eviscerate or earthquaker and you will die.

as i said, a weapon swap to hammer and doing anything but autoing is a mistake. youre falling into a trap because hammer almost always works for you. you literally cant use it against prot injection + stab armor and expect to win. the cc you depend on makes it hit like a wet noodle.

endure pain only lasts a really short time and has a long cd, it isnt dependable in a fight based on sustained damage. the best you can do is nullify a jump shot and a couple autos, but jump shot has 1/3 the cd. lyssa runes arent that great against a power build.

youre right, i eventually took an evisc and died. but i had him at a sliver of health multiple times in the fight, and vice versa as well.

a/s+ham just doesnt have the gap closing the warrior needs to stick to a rifle engi and make it an easy fight.

So you’re running both protection and stabilized armor. Yeah, it probably helps a good deal. Still, you’re glass so you’re bound to take some damage.

If not with that build, then I challenge you to have fun with rifle/ axe+shield build. Eventually you’ll eat kill shot or eviscerate for 11k. Tons of fun.

1800+ toughness isnt glass…

lets see someone here said engi have terrible condi thats your built not engi its self. something about condi nerco .
If ur a nader yeah ur going to have problems vs nerco. First nerco are way stronger in condi then engi .
I beat nerco 95% of the time only really expert nerco’s will bet me . Even if there an expert nerco comes down too who gets first hit .
Nerco has two big weakness 1 there slow 2 CC .

Nerco arnt meant to be out condi . best way too bet them is to control them as much as you can . They have a much larger health pool then engi . There able to do alot more with condi then a nader engi. As a CC engi I have no problem facing a condi nerco . Hell if a nerco was saying who wants to face me I would first in line jumping up and down waving my arms crazy.

I can see that the fotm built has problems vs nerco . Yet the CC builts shouldnt have any problem at all vs them thats there weakness after all.
Just like a CC engi has problems with mesmers a nader doesnt .

I take it you guys agree with devs decision to destroy the efficacy of AR then? May I ask what alternative anti-condition defense people use? Seriously I’d love to know. Surely as a class that is supposed to be the master of elixirs and medicines, we should have many options for condi-removal right? I mean a war can cleanse 3 conditions every 10 secs just by hitting you with a hammer…

insanemaniac.2456:

1800+ toughness isnt glass…

I thought we were talking about sPvP. In PvP you won’t do near enough damage to kill a warrior without berserker amulet.

DrMatt.9408:

I take it you guys agree with devs decision to destroy the efficacy of AR then? May I ask what alternative anti-condition defense people use? Seriously I’d love to know. Surely as a class that is supposed to be the master of elixirs and medicines, we should have many options for condi-removal right? I mean a war can cleanse 3 conditions every 10 secs just by hitting you with a hammer…

Dodge the hammer then. Seriously though, I saw this as a buff. Why is it that some people think only warriors can use runes of melandru or runes of hoelbrak? Also food for -40% condi duration for wvw. Now engineers can have -65% wvw (-25% pvp) condi duration above 33% life and -100% wvw (-75% PvP) below 33% life. For WvW, the immunity kicks in earlier and is 100% a buff to me.

Necros also can’t counter it by bursting conditions right before since you are resistant from the beginning. It’s not perfect for PvP but at the same time you have a bit more health to dance around the condi resistance before a power build ganks you. Keep in mind that condis round down so -75% is greater than 75% reduction in condi dmg.
As others have stated, the healing turret/elixir gun are still there. The anti stun duration also helps since I usually run with 1 or 0 stun breaks on my engi. Compared to dogged march or geomancers freedom, those only give the classes 98% immunity to cripple/chill/immob not 100% to ALL conditions. I like the change.

Uhtameit.2413:

insanemaniac.2456:

1800+ toughness isnt glass…

I thought we were talking about sPvP. In PvP you won’t do near enough damage to kill a warrior without berserker amulet.

i only talk wvw :P
c build
no pvp amulet

build doesnt exist in spvp. no knight amulet and i dont think cavalier would make it possible, has to be knight cuz the crit rate is much more important when all your crit comes from the amulet.

DrMatt.9408:

engineers easily loose to condi necros because we have terrible condi removal. that isnt ltp, thats bad balance

Even with the new heal skills it doesn’t help. I blame medkit and EG considering those heal skills don’t remove conditions and aren’t considered elixirs even tho they are based on the same principle. (not talking about that 1 removal on the medkit)

insanemaniac.2456:

1800+ toughness isnt glass…

when compared to what it would be had they left us a soldier class in betas yeah it’s glass.