Guild Wars 2

Greetings to everyone!

I wish to keep the foreword short, trough its hard, this topic has a lot of background thoughts, R.P.G. philosophy. A lot of personal taste and experiance also matters.

In short, i wish to talk about the way Guild Wars 2 is handling technology .
- I am asking your opinions
-Expressing my own
- Interested in between solutions, that benefit players that wish to keep, all that is generally good, but also advances the game.

How Guild Wars 2 handles technology (in my opinion) :
Good. Its hard to hit the balance to introduce “high tech” in any fantasy R.P.G. But Gw2 did it well. Asura and Charr made a good background for the world that is visible in Gw2.
By that i mean the *weapon skins, items you are interacting with in the world, some maps, even part of story, and a whole class dedicated to this. This is a lot of content, so its not in moderation, but it still fitting, and that means good design in my book.
Not to mention not only a lot but also a bit advanced, but even that feels all right. In fact, i think Asura technology, should be more accessible on player side.

1, Since the world is so full of technology and so “common”, that even Warriors and common soldiers can use rifles, asura gates ect… i think “technology” should be more accessible. I mean, it is, but then its not detailed very well.
Before you jump me (for some reason you might feel, you have to “defend” your game), let me explain why did i think this.

We have a class dedicated to this. In fact the whole class was put in to support the right of technology to be in the game. But when i think about the fact, that it only has 2 weapons (plus shield) i realize, they did not gave him more, because they did not want to make (for example) flamethrower weapons, that would only be usable by 1 class. And they probably did not wanted to give a weapon like that, to a mesmer -_- i guess….and it was a right decision. So he only has them as kit, whits is ok, but it still could have more “normal” weapons, that maybe other classes could use to, if they went in a bit, and think things trough on this topic.

I mean, why do engineers only have a “stick and stones” feeling rifle turret, and use an asura lightning plasma rifle. Why cant it have (another skin maybe?) a floating cube shape laser floating turret? No joke…that would actually be kind of normal in Gw2 if you only make a blink at Asura main city. Or why cant they use golems? Or Panoptic chainguns? Or a bit more “spinal blades” looking hobo sack?
So i came to this question….why is the player side usability of technology only limited to “stone age” tech , that is like represented as charr technology.
I dont think the player side interaction should be limited to Charr tech, it should also let players use Asura technology, even if it is at least in visual.

I am sure many of you could came up with a lot of answers…but if you truly look deep inside, it feels a bit like an excuse.

So what is your opinion on this? What are your ideas?

lorewise, all engineers are specializing in charr technology. it isn’t stone age tech. Charr technology is a very new technology and it is a very effective technology. Though, they are just now starting to branch out. we see this with the racials and the newest engi heal.

A common mistake I see made is to assume that asura tech is “modern” tech. it isn’t. It is completely based in magic. It is magi-tech. Golems are closer to being charr effigies than they are to being robots.

Even the newer charr developments are getting close to magi-tech though, most commonly in relation to the ghosts of the foefire. Ghostfire, the ghostbore musket, the ghost containment unit in Ashford, the ghost taming device on Diessa, these are using magic as part of the technology because mainly it must effect subjects of magical nature.

Also, and quite sadly in my opinion, technology is getting close to magic in the story-telling aspect as well. You need something impossible done? Be sure that there is an asura working on it already, and they just so happen to have a working prototype for it. Its really the same as an ancient ritual found in a dusty old tome (except that you may at least have to search for said tome in a gloomy place with some nice lore explanation). There are little to no lore explanations on how and why the technology works, its intentionally techno-babble, and the closest you get to additional background is getting x seeminlgy unrelated ingredient from z place.

The containment units work because of alchemical properties of the iron that they are made of. We have no confirmation that I’m aware of of how the other devices work but we do know that natural objects do effect ghosts. Like being able to destroy their physical forms with normal weapons making them take time to reform.

Dustfinger.9510:

lorewise, all engineers are specializing in charr technology. it isn’t stone age tech. Charr technology is a very new technology and it is a very effective technology. Though, they are just now starting to branch out. we see this with the racials and the newest engi heal.

A common mistake I see made is to assume that asura tech is “modern” tech. it isn’t. It is completely based in magic. It is magi-tech. Golems are closer to being charr effigies than they are to being robots.

I prefer to think of Charr tech as post WWII technology which is actually quite modern comparitively to stone age tech. It included research like rockets, bombs, incendiary chemicals, chemical warfare.

Altho I do agree they limited the heck out of this class not with it’s early designs mind you but with their attempts at PVP balance they have broken many a useful thing in PVE.

Dustfinger.9510:

A common mistake I see made is to assume that asura tech is “modern” tech. it isn’t. It is completely based in magic. It is magi-tech. Golems are closer to being charr effigies than they are to being robots.

Easily proven false. Asura do use magi-tech, and many of their designs utilize magick to high degree. However, saying that their inventions are just fancy use of magick is simply blindness trying to keep the charr on a level playing field with them.

Computer terminals with holographic displays litter every corner of Rata Sum. Golems have advanced AI routines and directives and their program logic is referenced constantly. These aren’t feats of magic beyond the power components. It’s computer and robotic technology on par and in many cases beyond what we have in the real world.

Charr technology’s main benefit is that it’s cheap and easy to mass produce to send to the battlefield. Asura technology in comparison is expensive and often impossible to produce on any kind of large scale, but it isn’t sent to the battlefield, it changes it completely.

For some time, I’ve wanted to see more “options” in how player-character technology appears. Considering how many Engineers are Asura (or in the case of Scarlet, and one would assume others) trained by Asura, how is it that most Engineer equipment has a more Charr-esque appearance? If nothing else, there should be skin options floating around to modify how each character’s Kits and Gadgets look.

As for the overall “tech-levels,” let’s be honest, here. The only thing the Charr are lacking, in comparison to “standard” Earth technology, would be be computers,
high-order physics equipment, and aerospace technology. Which is pretty frigging impressive, considering that they’ve gone effectively from pre-Columbian to roughly WW2-era in ~250 years. At this rate, it wouldn’t take them long to get to where our own sciences are at.

By comparison, the Asura have hit Clarke’s law, groped its naughty bits, and ran off snickering. Even though they definitely utilize Magick, one can also make a fair argument that they’ve got actual scientific principles alongside its use. The only problem, is that they’re also fractious and arrogant as a species. If this weren’t the case, I could see their experiments becoming a lot more codified, and thus more predictable in use.

One advantage I can see, for Engineers in general, is that the Pact unites these differing
technologies for its purpose. As such, it’s not terribly impossible to predict that we’ll eventually start seeing both “sides” of the tech divide beginning to cross-pollinate ideas between one another.

Rynn.1324:

Dustfinger.9510:

A common mistake I see made is to assume that asura tech is “modern” tech. it isn’t. It is completely based in magic. It is magi-tech. Golems are closer to being charr effigies than they are to being robots.

Easily proven false. Asura do use magi-tech, and many of their designs utilize magick to high degree. However, saying that their inventions are just fancy use of magick is simply blindness trying to keep the charr on a level playing field with them.

Computer terminals with holographic displays litter every corner of Rata Sum. Golems have advanced AI routines and directives and their program logic is referenced constantly. These aren’t feats of magic beyond the power components. It’s computer and robotic technology on par and in many cases beyond what we have in the real world.

Charr technology’s main benefit is that it’s cheap and easy to mass produce to send to the battlefield. Asura technology in comparison is expensive and often impossible to produce on any kind of large scale, but it isn’t sent to the battlefield, it changes it completely.

Please explain the difference between a golem and an effigy. You’ll see that most of these pseudo scientific terms that require a golem to operate are also necessary for an effigy to function effectively. looking at the cubist golem in the beginning of the asura storyline, we see how much magic is really involved. Without the magic it is a giant pile of rubble. Magic runes are inscribed throughout asura architecture. What part of asura technology isn’t magitech? Those computers, AI routines and directives? magic based. The same as the effigies would require to function. How are they not magic based?

In fact, if you go to the black citadel around the tanks you see an asura asking how the charr technology can possibly work without the use of magic. Nothing in lore says the asura society uses any high level of technology that isn’t based in magic. asura simply take a scientific approach to magic. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t magic.

asura tech is often reproduced on a large scale. just not by the asura proper. because that level of organization isn’t their strong suit. it is reproduced by the Pact.

Just look around the world in game. Asura primary school is pre-metamystics and advanced metamystics. before they get to their colleges. Which each focus on a specific aspect of the Eternal Alchemy which deals with how magic in the world is part of a greater function.

Individual asura will dedicate an entire lifespan to building a portfolio of successful projects or becoming the foremost expert of some tiny aspect of the arcane.

Asura magical technology is second to none. Their experiments with magic are evident through the impressive floating structures found around and within their cities. Many asura study the difficult art of golemancy

Asura believe in the Eternal Alchemy – the idea that all beings and magic in the world are a part or function of a greater purpose or “machine”. Asuran life is built around the research of the Eternal Alchemy
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Asura

tigirius.9014:

I prefer to think of Charr tech as post WWII technology which is actually quite modern comparitively to stone age tech. It included research like rockets, bombs, incendiary chemicals, chemical warfare.

Altho I do agree they limited the heck out of this class not with it’s early designs mind you but with their attempts at PVP balance they have broken many a useful thing in PVE.

I definitely agree that it is post WWII tech. When I said ‘new’ there referring to charr tech it was new for Tyria. As we have confirmation that charr tech is the height of technology in tyria that doesn’t utilize magic.

“We didn’t feel like we could ship the game without the engineer for so many reasons. His playstyle, his tie to the lore, guns, technology and charr and generally everything about the world advancing.While all the other professions are important, there were two professions we didn’t feel we could ship the game without: the guardian and engineer. The guardian is the tie back to where we were, and the engineer is forward-looking. The other professions are our ‘constant’. These two classes really tell the story of our 250 year transition.” http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

“Engineer profession has spread to the other races from there. The People of Tyria have seen it in combat over the past few years and have seen the effectiveness of an engineer. //So it all started with the Charr and their technological development.”

“Guild Wars 2 will be taking place 250 years after Guild Wars 1. So a lot of the technology has advanced and the Engineer is the profession that embraces this the most.”
http://www.wartower.de/artikel/artikel.php?id=562

Advent.6193:

One advantage I can see, for Engineers in general, is that the Pact unites these differing
technologies for its purpose. As such, it’s not terribly impossible to predict that we’ll eventually start seeing both “sides” of the tech divide beginning to cross-pollinate ideas between one another.

This. And it is actually starting to with that newest engi heal.

Dustfinger.9510:

Please explain the difference between a golem and an effigy. You’ll see that most of these pseudo scientific terms that require a golem to operate are also necessary for an effigy to function effectively. looking at the cubist golem in the beginning of the asura storyline, we see how much magic is really involved. Without the magic it is a giant pile of rubble. Magic runes are inscribed throughout asura architecture. What part of asura technology isn’t magitech? Those computers, AI routines and directives? magic based. The same as the effigies would require to function. How are they not magic based?

Effigies are not golems. Effigies are structures imbued with either spirts or elementals that provide both the intelligence and power behind the creation. Golems specifically use AI and/or a golem/asura mindlink interface (first pioneered by Snaff) to provide their intelligence, while the structure is powered by either magick or a generator (often utilizing magical components at the very least) of some kind.

All you have to do is wonder around the asura areas to see this. There are countless conversation pieces about gyroscopes, servos, motors, circuits, generators, networks, AI, and more.

Dustfinger.9510:

Individual asura will dedicate an entire lifespan to building a portfolio of successful projects or becoming the foremost expert of some tiny aspect of the arcane.

Asura magical technology is second to none. Their experiments with magic are evident through the impressive floating structures found around and within their cities. Many asura study the difficult art of golemancy

Asura believe in the Eternal Alchemy – the idea that all beings and magic in the world are a part or function of a greater purpose or “machine”. Asuran life is built around the research of the Eternal Alchemy
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Asura

And here is where the crux of the issue is. You seem to have this idea that magic is the standard fare “a wizard did it” plot glue that is used in other settings. In this setting magic IS a science. There are countless areas in the game where magic is shown augmenting traditional technology. Magic does indeed augment just about everything the asura do. But it doesn’t preclude their usage and research of technologies don’t utilize it.

The main difference that can be seen with asura technology is that they more or less skipped the iron/steam age of traditional technological development (which is basically where the Charr are currently). Or if they didn’t, it was so long ago no asura even really remembers it. After all, why power your golem with a bulky steam engine when a sufficiently charged power crystal will provide a more reliable source at 1/10th the mass and a fraction of the cost?

Rynn.1324:

Effigies are not golems. Effigies are structures imbued with either spirts or elementals that provide both the intelligence and power behind the creation. Golems specifically use AI and/or a golem/asura mindlink interface (first pioneered by Snaff) to provide their intelligence, while the structure is powered by either magick or a generator (often utilizing magical components at the very least) of some kind.

All you have to do is wonder around the asura areas to see this. There are countless conversation pieces about gyroscopes, servos, motors, circuits, generators, networks, AI, and more.

check the fun house. inquest are infusing their golems with souls. The physical aspects of a golem like servos and gyroscopes are simply more complicated versions of the sticks that effigies are made of. That AI… is magic. That asura golem interface was invented by a master Mesmer.becasue it is based on magic principles. Check out who snaff actually was. “Snaff was a highly regarded magical theorist” http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Snaff Golems aren’t simply powered by magic, otherwise they wouldn’t fall apart when the magic departs upon defeating them. That means that their internal operations are intrinsically tied to magic beyond simple power supply.

And here is where the crux of the issue is. You seem to have this idea that magic is the standard fare “a wizard did it” plot glue that is used in other settings. In this setting magic IS a science. There are countless areas in the game where magic is shown augmenting traditional technology. Magic does indeed augment just about everything the asura do. But it doesn’t preclude their usage and research of technologies don’t utilize it.

The main difference that can be seen with asura technology is that they more or less skipped the iron/steam age of traditional technological development (which is basically where the Charr are currently). Or if they didn’t, it was so long ago no asura even really remembers it. After all, why power your golem with a bulky steam engine when a sufficiently charged power crystal will provide a more reliable source at 1/10th the mass and a fraction of the cost?

I’m not sure where you get that assumption of my motivation. I’m simply going where the lore takes me. I’ve already stated that asura take a scientific approach to magic. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t still magic. and in no way does that mean “a wizard did it”. In lore, the asura specialize in magi tech. Not future tech that has moved past charr tech. I’ve already posted where dev interview has specifixcally stated that charr tech is the best representation of technological advancement in tyria. Obviously they are separating magic based technology from non-magic technology. How would the charr be that representation if the asura have far surpassed them?

again, the asura in the black citadel can’t comprehend how charr tech works without incorporating magic. What specific technologies do the asura have that don’t use magic? because their entire society and all three colleges revolve around the idea that magic is infused with everything. You’re entire argument seems to consist of the idea that asura magitech doesn’t need to be the height of their advancement. While it doesn’t exactly need to be, it actually is. That’s the lore.

your view of the asura simply doesn’t line up with the stated lore.

edit:

Or if they didn’t, it was so long ago no asura even really remembers it. After all, why power your golem with a bulky steam engine when a sufficiently charged power crystal will provide a more reliable source at 1/10th the mass and a fraction of the cost?

have you played the infinity ball story line?

Dustfinger.9510:

check the fun house. inquest are infusing their golems with souls. The physical aspects of a golem like servos and gyroscopes are simply more complicated versions of the sticks that effigies are made of. That AI… is magic. That asura golem interface was invented by a master Mesmer.becasue it is based on magic principles. Check out who snaff actually was. “Snaff was a highly regarded magical theorist” http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Snaff Golems aren’t simply powered by magic, otherwise they wouldn’t fall apart when the magic departs upon defeating them. That means that their internal operations are intrinsically tied to magic beyond simple power supply.

Inquest experiments are just that. The golems seen throughout Rata Sum operate off of programmed AI decision trees, as can be seen through at least two different events that happen frequently in the city. Asura golem mind interface I was referring to was the one built by Snaff.

The AI is not magic. The Dynamics storyline specifically details your golem’s programming being tampered with.

Also, they fall apart because magic is indeed what holds the various pieces together.

Dustfinger.9510:

I’m not sure where you get that assumption of my motivation. I’m simply going where the lore takes me. I’ve already stated that asura take a scientific approach to magic. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t still magic. and in no way does that mean “a wizard did it”. In lore, the asura specialize in magi tech. Not future tech that has moved past charr tech. I’ve already posted where dev interview has specifixcally stated that charr tech is the best representation of technological advancement in tyria. Obviously they are separating magic based technology from non-magic technology. How would the charr be that representation if the asura have far surpassed them?

That’s the problem. It isn’t where the lore is taking you – you’re retro-fitting the lore to meet your preconceived notions. The dev interview you keep mentioning is with two systems programmers. Not storyline editors, not lore or world leads, systems programmers. This is like basing canon Middle Earth facts on something said by Tolkien’s typesetter. If you’re looking for actual support for such things, in-game events and conversations are a much better source.

Dustfinger.9510:

again, the asura in the black citadel can’t comprehend how charr tech works without incorporating magic. What specific technologies do the asura have that don’t use magic? because their entire society and all three colleges revolve around the idea that magic is infused with everything. You’re entire argument seems to consist of the idea that asura magitech doesn’t need to be the height of their advancement. While it doesn’t exactly need to be, it actually is. That’s the lore.

your view of the asura simply doesn’t line up with the stated lore.

I’m not sure where the disagreement is for this portion is, really – magic does indeed permeate everything the Asura do. My assertion is that there is simply so much non-magical technology referenced by asura throughout the game it seems silly to assume that they’re incapable of building anything that doesn’t use it.

Dustfinger.9510:

have you played the infinity ball story line?

You mean the story where the winner of the Snaff prize looses his marbles and goes on to create a steam machine army? Yes, but that seems about as relevant as the fractal where the asura makes a protection platoon of kitty golems…

Rynn.1324:

Inquest experiments are just that. The golems seen throughout Rata Sum operate off of programmed AI decision trees, as can be seen through at least two different events that happen frequently in the city. Asura golem mind interface I was referring to was the one built by Snaff.

You’re specifically dismissing the golems that are infused with souls. To prove that golems differ from effigies because effigies are infused with spirits. That means that it isn’t actually a doffrence in that reguard. Experiment ot not since they are golems and the experiment was successful.

The AI is not magic. The Dynamics storyline specifically details your golem’s programming being tampered with.

The entire college of dynamics (as well as every other college)is based on principles of magic. being able to tamper with magic programming doesn’t negate it from being magic. The watchnights were also tampered with. where they also not magical?

Also, they fall apart because magic is indeed what holds the various pieces together.

proving that magic serves greater purpose than just a power supply.

That’s the problem. It isn’t where the lore is taking you – you’re retro-fitting the lore to meet your preconceived notions. The dev interview you keep mentioning is with two systems programmers. Not storyline editors, not lore or world leads, systems programmers. This is like basing canon Middle Earth facts on something said by Tolkien’s typesetter. If you’re looking for actual support for such things, in-game events and conversations are a much better source.

The diffrence here is that going by my interpretation, the in game sources and the interviews don’t disagree.

I’m not sure where the disagreement is for this portion is, really – magic does indeed permeate everything the Asura do. My assertion is that there is simply so much non-magical technology referenced by asura throughout the game it seems silly to assume that they’re incapable of building anything that doesn’t use it.

The fact that they can become engineers is proof that they are capable. but they simply don’t do it on any large scale as a society. please specify which of their tech has nothing to do with magic.

You mean the story where the winner of the Snaff prize looses his marbles and goes on to create a steam machine army? Yes, but that seems about as relevant as the fractal where the asura makes a protection platoon of kitty golems…

Yes, the story line where one asura combines charr and asura tech to become powerful enough to take over the world. I’d say the relevance here is that your asserions that steam tech is not used by asura due to it’s inferiority is contradicted by this very story line.

edit: I know which interface you were referencing. Snaff was that master Mesmer. He was the famed magical theorist that came up with the asura golem mind interface. The greatest mind wizard of a race that specializes in magitech invented the mind interface. You really don’t think it’s based on magic?

I’ll interject one thing, here.
Namely that Engineers had to have picked up Alchemy from somewhere. And unlike “real-world” Alchemy, which can at least be argued to have been something of an early Chemistry (in certain regards), Tyrian Alchemy creates some decidedly non-technological effects. Elixir S, anyone?
With this in mind, the tech cross-over my earlier post mentions can be said to have happened for the class from the start. (Although Elixirs that don’t create changes which completely crap on Conservation of Mass can still be argued as Charr combat-drugs …)
As for the Snaff arguement; let’s be honest, here. If Mesmers weren’t effectively “Denial Magic” users by the GW lore, their abilities could easily be argued as ESP and holographic manipulation, rather than codified Sorcery. /shrug

From a race of inventors, we do know that many of Snaffs smaller inventions did focus on telepathic controle. So there may well be something to be said for that argument. At least when it comes to some individual asura mesmers.

“many of his smaller inventions focused on using telepathic control” http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Snaff

edit: Though, on the elixir part, I don’t see why the charr couldn’t have had elixers that create mass change. We know the Ash Legion confirms that charr thieves use “thief magic”. And a-net confirmed that all individuals have some level of inherent magic ability. So the charr don’t completely shun any and all magic. Especially that which would be seen as natural and found in the natural world around them. e.g.: They have no problem using a type of iron alloy that has the alchemical properties that prevent ghosts from passing through it. they just seem adverse to the institutions of studied magic due to the Flame Legion. And even then, a-net has said that charr problems with the Flame Legion is more about the worship of gods and longtime oppression than their preference to shoot fireballs.

Why are you setting up “magic” and “technology” as polar opposites?

“Science” is observing nature and deducing laws and models that describe it. We have Newton’s laws, but a single glance at Morgan’s Spiral would make anyone rethink them, or postulate a force that counteracts gravity (e.g. a “levitation field” or whatever). Real-life scientists would actually do that, if they found a stable formation of floating rocks out in the open.

“Technology”, for our purposes, is using these laws to run the universe for personal gain. If a world has natural “magic” (loosely defined as anything that doesn’t match up with real-life science); then that magic is a valid component of “technology”.

If levitation enchantments worked in real life we’d long have replaced most if not all wheeled constructs. In fact levitation is entirely possible IRL, but the energy costs are prohibitive hence we’re stuck with bicycles instead of flying broomsticks/hovercars.

Asuran technology isn’t “way above and beyond” Charr tech, they simply focus on entirely different aspects of nature. With all the references to “aether”, “flux”, “oscillation/frequency” as well as circuits, lasers and electric arcs most of it actually seems to be based on electromagnetism, only with a much higher production and storage capacity.

Imagine if we had access to a naturally occurring crystal, where 1kg would yield enough electric energy to power a microwave oven for hours. Suddenly inventing computers before combustion engines doesn’t sound that far-fetched, right?

On the original topic, I would like some more tech options too. Actually “golemancer” seems to be a valid, combat-capable profession in-universe (based on certain Inquest and the CoE runes). I’d also like to see more Sylvari “tech”. While most people think it’s only good for primitive imitations, remember that seed turrets and (improved magic-imbued) bramble walls are in use throughout Orr, so some of it actually is “viable”.

magic and technology are in no way polar opposites. The fact that asura technolgy is based on mogic principles is evidence of this. but there is a necessity to distinguish the idea of technology that is not based in magic from technology that is. What ever terms we choose to make that distinction isn’t important, so long as they convey the ideals that allow communication to compare and contrast the two very diffrent ideals.

Anet has simplified the process by just refering to charr tech as ‘technology". So this is what I tend to go with. But in no way does it preclude magitech from also being a form of technology. It just isn’t the same technology. As you’ve stated, it isn’t even in the same technological family.

There is priory event dialog that says magic is indeed a natural law. And that ritual is used becasue those laws aren’t fully understood. We know asura are as close to understanding and quantifying the magical laws as anybody is. Their (pseudo)scientific terms are applicable when quantifying mgical laws. Look at the term “aether”. it doesn’t signify electro magnetism. Aether is a terms that refers to a magical fifth element or spiritual substance through wich alchemical properties traveled. Magical and magitech lazers are really no diffrent than magical and magitech fireballs.

So i definitly agree with you photoloss that the two technolgies are just diffrent paths. But the magical laws that asura base their technolgy on is not something we have access to here in RL. This is why they study metamystics and advanced metamystics. meta means the “aboutness” of something. They study the underlying principles of mystics before they ever apply them to their technology in the Colleges.

By the lore of this game, magic is supernatural and defies the laws of nature and physics.

That sounds like polar opposites to me.

Personally I do not feel harassing power outside the scope of science, nature, and physics, is actual technology. As I see it, the powers of magic in a scientific setting are to unreliable. It strikes me as comparing an ghost operating a bicycle to that of a combustion or electric engine powering one. To me, they are not comparable.

it’s not just magic. It’s magi-tech. it’s technology that is based on solid and constant principles of magic. in GW lore, these magic principles are consistant enough to be quantifiable. we see the asura doing it. We also know that magic is naturally occuring. So we don’t need to call this naturally occuring force that is bound by laws a “natural law”, per se but we also can’t deny the lore qualities of it.

Magic seems to be something that needs to be learned and practiced to be used efficiently, just like most technological and scientific developments. And while using a force might be easy, understanding it and using it in a more complex system is complicated.

Take gravity. Everyone is familiar with it without fully understanding it. Lifting pushing dropping, shooting, we did these things with high efficiency before Newton. In comparison to this, whatever force lets people conjure up a lightning bolt from ones fingers. Be it incantation that sets up a state of mind, arcane patterns that somehow manipulate the flow of unseen magic in the air or anything else, anyone can use it because “magic” like this is an integral part of Tyria.

And as understanding gravity eventually let us go to outer space, understanding the force that lets tyrians shoot lightning bolts out of their fingers let asuras build golems that can conjure up static fields without a state of mind or specific arcane patterns.

Its hard to see what exactly divides the ‘natural’-like science and technology of the charr from the ‘magic’-bases science and technology of the asura in a world where magic is part of the natural world.

The easy answer is that the charr tech is based on real life natural laws and asura tech is based on something we would experience as magic. However for Tyria itself where both forces are there from the very beginning, it just might be a strange divide between the races and their ways of thinking, as they adapt to the aspects of the world that is most familiar and natural for them to manipulate. Charr with fire and steam, asura with “magic” or aether, sylvari with plants and bio-engineering, humans with clockwork, and norn with… (alright, im stuck on how norn technology would look like if they developed their own).

lakdav.3694:

The easy answer is that the charr tech is based on real life natural laws and asura tech is based on something we would experience as magic.

(and others):

The problem with that is, some Charr tech defies real life laws just as much. Mortars that launch 6x their total volume in explosive shells every few seconds, vehicles that should collapse under their own weight, muzzle-loaded flintlocks reaching a higher fire rate than WWI machine gun prototypes…

Meanwhile, Asuran tech could mostly be exlained with real-life electromagnetism, though I agree their terminology probably was inserted as thematically consistent technobabble. Still, a high-efficiency generator/battery, room temperature superconductors and a few ambient fields and you’re set. It’s supposed to be of alien origin, but it kinda falls short.

Especially compared to the “traditional” magic in the game: elementalists, necromancers and mesmers don’t lend themselves to easy analogies in real life. Asura gates and Waypoint tech also counts, especially since electromagnetic “teleporters” would be of the rather unpleasant “kill and revive at the other end” variety. I don’t know of any “hard studies” on human gods, and Oola specifically states that necromancy and golemancy are different concepts, by trying to combine them.

I’d personally categorize things like high rate of fire with flintlocks as game mechanics. The only thing that makes a flintlock a flintlock is the flintlock mechanism. so either they aren’t flintlocks or they are.

We also know that the different studies of magical knowledge are different very different areas of study. A-net likened them to forgetting everything you know after earning a degree and then going on to earn another. So it may be like learning rocket science and geology an psychology. They are RL areas of study subject to the same RL natural laws (as everything in RL is) but they focus on very different aspects of it.