Guild Wars 2

Is that in PvP/WvW few know what the hell we can do

Most notably those “sarcastic patch notes” that are famous on Reddit, many of the overarching posts on forums tend to forget that Engineer is even a class.

Many Engineers don’t even know what the hell they can do.

If we knew, other classes would know, too.

probably 1v1s. get the right build and you simply won’t lose.

mifbifgiggle.6713:

probably 1v1s. get the right build and you simply won’t lose.

Funny, thats what some Eles say. And Necro’s. And Mesmers. And Guardians. And Thieves. And Rangers. And Warriors.

We cant all not lose. And with the distinct lack of proper damage, weaker support, lack of Stability, i dont think its the Engineer.
A necro would tear you a few new ones without a doubt. Making your damage even worst, and denying you all your boons.

Terrahero.9358:

mifbifgiggle.6713:

probably 1v1s. get the right build and you simply won’t lose.

Funny, thats what some Eles say. And Necro’s. And Mesmers. And Guardians. And Thieves. And Rangers. And Warriors.

We cant all not lose. And with the distinct lack of proper damage, weaker support, lack of Stability, i dont think its the Engineer.
A necro would tear you a few new ones without a doubt. Making your damage even worst, and denying you all your boons.

We have just as much “do not die” ability than any other profession. 2 second reflect + 3 second block + 3 second block +3 second invulnerable + 3 second invulnerable at 25% life + utility heal off of CD at 25% life + 4-6 dodges in a row if spec’d the right way, Elixir R to rez yourself even if you don’t make it through the first two minutes of fighting.

Now say, vs. 1v2 and 1v3, other professions do better at us weathering several attackers, but 1v1, we’re in the same boat as anyone else.

aydenunited.5729:

Terrahero.9358:

mifbifgiggle.6713:

probably 1v1s. get the right build and you simply won’t lose.

Funny, thats what some Eles say. And Necro’s. And Mesmers. And Guardians. And Thieves. And Rangers. And Warriors.

We cant all not lose. And with the distinct lack of proper damage, weaker support, lack of Stability, i dont think its the Engineer.
A necro would tear you a few new ones without a doubt. Making your damage even worst, and denying you all your boons.

We have just as much “do not die” ability than any other profession. 2 second reflect + 3 second block + 3 second block +3 second invulnerable + 3 second invulnerable at 25% life + utility heal off of CD at 25% life + 4-6 dodges in a row if spec’d the right way, Elixir R to rez yourself even if you don’t make it through the first two minutes of fighting.

Now say, vs. 1v2 and 1v3, other professions do better at us weathering several attackers, but 1v1, we’re in the same boat as anyone else.

so we have:
-shield and pistol
- tool kit
- traits in alchemy
- traits in tools
- traits in inventions
- elixir S
- elixir R

sure, you’ll live.
But what are you killing in this imaginary build?
1 v 1 is still about killing the other too…

This touches upon the real issue with engineers: we can not be versatile, we always build for one thing or another. In your example it’s a build for bunkering, tanking. It has no damage left that is competetive at all. Not with what you are listing.

Kimbald.2697:

aydenunited.5729:

Terrahero.9358:

mifbifgiggle.6713:

probably 1v1s. get the right build and you simply won’t lose.

Funny, thats what some Eles say. And Necro’s. And Mesmers. And Guardians. And Thieves. And Rangers. And Warriors.

We cant all not lose. And with the distinct lack of proper damage, weaker support, lack of Stability, i dont think its the Engineer.
A necro would tear you a few new ones without a doubt. Making your damage even worst, and denying you all your boons.

We have just as much “do not die” ability than any other profession. 2 second reflect + 3 second block + 3 second block +3 second invulnerable + 3 second invulnerable at 25% life + utility heal off of CD at 25% life + 4-6 dodges in a row if spec’d the right way, Elixir R to rez yourself even if you don’t make it through the first two minutes of fighting.

Now say, vs. 1v2 and 1v3, other professions do better at us weathering several attackers, but 1v1, we’re in the same boat as anyone else.

so we have:
-shield and pistol
- tool kit
- traits in alchemy
- traits in tools
- traits in inventions
- elixir S
- elixir R

sure, you’ll live.
But what are you killing in this imaginary build?
1 v 1 is still about killing the other too…

This touches upon the real issue with engineers: we can not be versatile, we always build for one thing or another. In your example it’s a build for bunkering, tanking. It has no damage left that is competetive at all. Not with what you are listing.

No, for WINNING just about any 1v1, I use my current build which is nothing like this. I was merely showing our tools in which we could never die 1v1, just like the other professions have.

We absolutely can be versatile, and the fact that so many Engineers try to stack all of one thing is one of the main reasons so many struggle. Taking all turrets, all potions, all gadgets, all condition damage, all might stacking… are usually horrible ideas that peter out and don’t offer enough bang for the buck, and I think that’s the first wall most Engineers face when they are playing this class.

Then once you start experimenting you find there are a lot of really good builds, particularly 1v1 builds. My current build being able to bunker 1v1 and 1v2 for a while, permanent swiftness for running between nodes, power damage + condition damage output at melee range, and a tossable rez for yourself or a team-mate, is pretty “versatile” to me, though that buzzword is really getting tiresome and losing it’s meaning by now.

That’s still the problem: too many people say they never lose a 1v1.

redslion.9675:

That’s still the problem: too many people say they never lose a 1v1.

It’s true, though, and that’s a problem on the sPvP forums… “bunkers” in general, can make builds that will never die 1v1. Now if people are saying they always defeat everyone 1v1, that’s a little different.

Too bad 1v1 doesnt mean a thing in WvW. You can scream and roll in happiness of beating someone but in reality all that matter is what u give to the 39 others of 40 men zerg. tanky engi gets so badly out dps by enemy that its useless many times. whats the point of staying alive when battle is lost? Personally i find zapper engi most usefull now. The aoe attack is so good. Also i add in attackin golem and roll with rifle: jumpshot+blunder to enter net shot to seal enemy and overcharge when ally is downed and someone is trying to finish him off. Then next to downed and if get growded prypar and shield and if lucky ppl start killin themselves and pull off and u can save the downed. After that cooldown of F-bar done and zapp zapp.. Get alot drops too when touch all enemy :P

ikiturso.4026:

whats the point of staying alive when battle is lost?

The point is, you (running your glass cannon) rally the 20 downed enemy when they kill you and the character specced for survivability doesn’t. I have watched countless battles our team should have won fail because half a downed enemy force gets rallied.

Well, if we talk about people who never die in 1v1, then I agree.

However, remember there is also spvp. There, the situation is reversed: most glass cannons don’t live long enough to kill anyone, unless they are packed in groups, which may lead to defeat in tourneys.

aydenunited.5729:

Terrahero.9358:

mifbifgiggle.6713:

probably 1v1s. get the right build and you simply won’t lose.

Funny, thats what some Eles say. And Necro’s. And Mesmers. And Guardians. And Thieves. And Rangers. And Warriors.

We cant all not lose. And with the distinct lack of proper damage, weaker support, lack of Stability, i dont think its the Engineer.
A necro would tear you a few new ones without a doubt. Making your damage even worst, and denying you all your boons.

We have just as much “do not die” ability than any other profession. 2 second reflect + 3 second block + 3 second block +3 second invulnerable + 3 second invulnerable at 25% life + utility heal off of CD at 25% life + 4-6 dodges in a row if spec’d the right way, Elixir R to rez yourself even if you don’t make it through the first two minutes of fighting.

Now say, vs. 1v2 and 1v3, other professions do better at us weathering several attackers, but 1v1, we’re in the same boat as anyone else.

As a scepter+dagger Necro specializing in conditions, I could just wait for your blocks to end, my attacks have zero projectiles to reflect, and I’ll just slap you with Blood is Power on top of my other bleeds and oh what’s that? You slapped a bunch of conditions on me and I’m losing health? One sec while I pop my 20 second CD heal and get rid of all those conditions that will fuel the strength of such an awesome heal. Boons on you? I’ll hold off on Consume Conditions and slap you with Corrupt Boon and then use my heal to get rid of all my self-inflicted conditions on top of whatever you gave me.

Your invulnerability skills? I can wait them out. Oh I see you got me nice and low on hp, but you’re bleeding out like a protagonist in Gantz, Death Shroud for long invulnerability, a quick fear, a strong life-steal that auto-hits, a half-decent auto-attack nuke and an entirely separate lifebar for you to chew through.

Whatever you can do, I can do better, sad but true.

Rhinzual.7861:

aydenunited.5729:

Terrahero.9358:

mifbifgiggle.6713:

probably 1v1s. get the right build and you simply won’t lose.

Funny, thats what some Eles say. And Necro’s. And Mesmers. And Guardians. And Thieves. And Rangers. And Warriors.

We cant all not lose. And with the distinct lack of proper damage, weaker support, lack of Stability, i dont think its the Engineer.
A necro would tear you a few new ones without a doubt. Making your damage even worst, and denying you all your boons.

We have just as much “do not die” ability than any other profession. 2 second reflect + 3 second block + 3 second block +3 second invulnerable + 3 second invulnerable at 25% life + utility heal off of CD at 25% life + 4-6 dodges in a row if spec’d the right way, Elixir R to rez yourself even if you don’t make it through the first two minutes of fighting.

Now say, vs. 1v2 and 1v3, other professions do better at us weathering several attackers, but 1v1, we’re in the same boat as anyone else.

As a scepter+dagger Necro specializing in conditions, I could just wait for your blocks to end, my attacks have zero projectiles to reflect, and I’ll just slap you with Blood is Power on top of my other bleeds and oh what’s that? You slapped a bunch of conditions on me and I’m losing health? One sec while I pop my 20 second CD heal and get rid of all those conditions that will fuel the strength of such an awesome heal. Boons on you? I’ll hold off on Consume Conditions and slap you with Corrupt Boon and then use my heal to get rid of all my self-inflicted conditions on top of whatever you gave me.

Your invulnerability skills? I can wait them out. Oh I see you got me nice and low on hp, but you’re bleeding out like a protagonist in Gantz, Death Shroud for long invulnerability, a quick fear, a strong life-steal that auto-hits, a half-decent auto-attack nuke and an entirely separate lifebar for you to chew through.

Whatever you can do, I can do better, sad but true.

Except that you’re nice and low on HP, and your condition damage goes limp at 25% with Automated Response. And even if you kill me the first time, I’ve already got Elixir R thrown on the ground and rez myself to continue the fight.

Hypothetical duels don’t really mean much, we could go back and forth all day countering what the other can do in words. I would love to face more tough Necros to work on my build, look me up in game and we’ll have a go sometime, should be fun.

aydenunited.5729:

Rhinzual.7861:

aydenunited.5729:

Terrahero.9358:

mifbifgiggle.6713:

probably 1v1s. get the right build and you simply won’t lose.

Funny, thats what some Eles say. And Necro’s. And Mesmers. And Guardians. And Thieves. And Rangers. And Warriors.

We cant all not lose. And with the distinct lack of proper damage, weaker support, lack of Stability, i dont think its the Engineer.
A necro would tear you a few new ones without a doubt. Making your damage even worst, and denying you all your boons.

We have just as much “do not die” ability than any other profession. 2 second reflect + 3 second block + 3 second block +3 second invulnerable + 3 second invulnerable at 25% life + utility heal off of CD at 25% life + 4-6 dodges in a row if spec’d the right way, Elixir R to rez yourself even if you don’t make it through the first two minutes of fighting.

Now say, vs. 1v2 and 1v3, other professions do better at us weathering several attackers, but 1v1, we’re in the same boat as anyone else.

As a scepter+dagger Necro specializing in conditions, I could just wait for your blocks to end, my attacks have zero projectiles to reflect, and I’ll just slap you with Blood is Power on top of my other bleeds and oh what’s that? You slapped a bunch of conditions on me and I’m losing health? One sec while I pop my 20 second CD heal and get rid of all those conditions that will fuel the strength of such an awesome heal. Boons on you? I’ll hold off on Consume Conditions and slap you with Corrupt Boon and then use my heal to get rid of all my self-inflicted conditions on top of whatever you gave me.

Your invulnerability skills? I can wait them out. Oh I see you got me nice and low on hp, but you’re bleeding out like a protagonist in Gantz, Death Shroud for long invulnerability, a quick fear, a strong life-steal that auto-hits, a half-decent auto-attack nuke and an entirely separate lifebar for you to chew through.

Whatever you can do, I can do better, sad but true.

Except that you’re nice and low on HP, and your condition damage goes limp at 25% with Automated Response. And even if you kill me the first time, I’ve already got Elixir R thrown on the ground and rez myself to continue the fight.

Hypothetical duels don’t really mean much, we could go back and forth all day countering what the other can do in words. I would love to face more tough Necros to work on my build, look me up in game and we’ll have a go sometime, should be fun.

I guess I should have just kept it simple: Engineers have versatility as their strength, but it’s a weakness. You wanna go condition spec? Fine, but when you run into a profession designed almost entirely around conditions/attrition that specs nice and deep into condition damage and stripping boons and such, you’re going to lose. A generalist dabbling in a specialized field will fall flat against a specialist of that field.

Wanna tank? Go right ahead and go for a bunker build or TANKCAT build, but a guardian will make a better bunker than you. Wanna go for ranged damage? Nothing stopping you, but a rifle warrior can beat you out in that category.

I love Engineers, I really do, but ANet has yet to fix a bunch of glaring issues and the design philosophy more or less says that they’re Robin to the Batman (other professions). It’s a bad spot to be in, and I hate it. I honestly want my Flamethrower-wielding Charr Engineer to work. Get some good looking armor on him, whip out the Flamethrower and hell yeah, look like something out of Killzone 2 or -possibly- Warhammer 40K.

As it stands though, Engineers need a lot of work and the design philosophy absolutely has to change in order for the class to truly shine.

aydenunited.5729:

We have just as much “do not die” ability than any other profession. 2 second reflect + 3 second block + 3 second block +3 second invulnerable + 3 second invulnerable at 25% life + utility heal off of CD at 25% life + 4-6 dodges in a row if spec’d the right way, Elixir R to rez yourself even if you don’t make it through the first two minutes of fighting.

The only things that stand out about engineer survivability are elixir R (which was nerfed) and dodges (but a couple of other classes can also do that and with less traits).

Incidentally for a fine example of how bad engys traits are, we have a 30 pt “grandmaster” trait – Adrenal Implant, that is exactly the same as 5 pt minor trait for Rangers – Natural Vigor.

As for the rest of it, let’s take elixir s and the three secs of invurn every 60 secs (or 90 secs, no control over it and dealing with it not triggering some of the time for the trait) and compare that to say my mesmer where I can avoid all attacks for 2 secs every 8 secs (whilst putting out decent damage), there is no comparision. Now add the survability that illusions, stealth, shatter skills, blinks and more damage provide and you have why engys are weak in comparision (without even going into how much more key utility a mesmer has).

You know another area lacking when it comes to survivability for an alleged versitile / jack of all trades class – condition removal, engineer has crappy condition removal unless you are going for some sort of elixir build. Now I expect my necro to have good condition removal, after all manipulating conditions is its thing, but my thief? For 10 points in shadow arts I get to remove conditions whilst in stealth, this is on top of a heal that removes bleeding, burning and poision, which surpasses any non-elixir build on an engineer and even an elixir build requires more trait points.

The other issue of course is the trade off between damage and survivabiity, and how that lack of damge also effects your survivability, you start off with the lowest damage as an engy, if you trait / use utlity slots to increase that, you end up with less survivabilty than other classes with equal (or at times even more damage). If you opt for more surviability then you end up doing so little damage that you won’t be able to pressure other players, whcih in turn reduces your survivability.

A versitile / jack of all trades class simply does not fit into a trait system that works on the basis of specilization, a game with no diminishing returns and being crowbarred into the same interface (hint – some of the engys problems would be alleviated by giving engys an extra utility slot)

aydenunited.5729:

Except that you’re nice and low on HP, and your condition damage goes limp at 25% with Automated Response. And even if you kill me the first time, I’ve already got Elixir R thrown on the ground and rez myself to continue the fight.

Hypothetical duels don’t really mean much, we could go back and forth all day countering what the other can do in words. I would love to face more tough Necros to work on my build, look me up in game and we’ll have a go sometime, should be fun.

I sort of agree with the sentiment that mind duels are only cool in Kungkittenmovies, but Necros are a very nasty class for engineer bunkers to deal with. I think it’s worth talking about because it highlights some of the weak points of TANKCAT.

Probably the hardest part about being an engineer is dealing with condition builds. Engineers simply lack good condition clearing, and they’ve very vulnerable to having their limited access to buffs stolen. TANKCAT’s primary damage output is Retaliation, but they actually have limited access to it. If you take it away or don’t do the bulk of your damage via direct hits, TANKCAT has basically no way to do anything but slowly lumber away dropping easily avoidable nail fields.

Necros are a particularly bad type of condition build to deal with for tanky engineers. Unless they’re spec’d heavily AoE, they will keep conditions on you always, corrupt your boons, ignore your burst, wait out your blocks. And if you are one of the rare engineers that spec’s to ignore conditions at 25% hp, the Necro can pop death shroud and actually hit shockingly hard with life blast. And that’s assuming they haven’t been banking their ultimate.

The main reason Necros are not an absolute terror in small groups in WvW is because they tend to roll with utilities that give them the best AoE condition damage options in the game. Swapping out Epidemic for Corrupt Boon changes that equation, as does trading in a staff for a dagger/dagger or dagger/focus. Occasionally you see users like Sheobix make roamer power builds and they’re pretty frightening to watch (necro’s melee damage is shockingly strong). I’ve never seen an engineer build has a chance in hell of beating a well melee necro. The easy access to Stability (from DS), Chill, and Corrupt Boon just ruins Engineers of all kinds.

Anyways, the greatest strength of an Engineer is supposed to be mid-fight versatility. It is currently not the case that engineers have that (and Rangers do it better with pet swapping, not that it’s great). For now, Engineer’s actual greatest strength is that if you want you can rock so many knockbacks that you can keep melee players on the ground for quite some time, and stability becomes a must-have. Of course, Engineers have no real ways to capitalize on this power because their direct damage options are so lackluster, but if you’re rolling with a team you can make the fight much easier for the team by keeping enemies on the floor.

KirinDave.6451:

aydenunited.5729:

Except that you’re nice and low on HP, and your condition damage goes limp at 25% with Automated Response. And even if you kill me the first time, I’ve already got Elixir R thrown on the ground and rez myself to continue the fight.

Hypothetical duels don’t really mean much, we could go back and forth all day countering what the other can do in words. I would love to face more tough Necros to work on my build, look me up in game and we’ll have a go sometime, should be fun.

I sort of agree with the sentiment that mind duels are only cool in Kungkittenmovies, but Necros are a very nasty class for engineer bunkers to deal with. I think it’s worth talking about because it highlights some of the weak points of TANKCAT.

Probably the hardest part about being an engineer is dealing with condition builds. Engineers simply lack good condition clearing, and they’ve very vulnerable to having their limited access to buffs stolen. TANKCAT’s primary damage output is Retaliation, but they actually have limited access to it. If you take it away or don’t do the bulk of your damage via direct hits, TANKCAT has basically no way to do anything but slowly lumber away dropping easily avoidable nail fields.

Necros are a particularly bad type of condition build to deal with for tanky engineers. Unless they’re spec’d heavily AoE, they will keep conditions on you always, corrupt your boons, ignore your burst, wait out your blocks. And if you are one of the rare engineers that spec’s to ignore conditions at 25% hp, the Necro can pop death shroud and actually hit shockingly hard with life blast. And that’s assuming they haven’t been banking their ultimate.

The main reason Necros are not an absolute terror in small groups in WvW is because they tend to roll with utilities that give them the best AoE condition damage options in the game. Swapping out Epidemic for Corrupt Boon changes that equation, as does trading in a staff for a dagger/dagger or dagger/focus. Occasionally you see users like Sheobix make roamer power builds and they’re pretty frightening to watch (necro’s melee damage is shockingly strong). I’ve never seen an engineer build has a chance in hell of beating a well melee necro. The easy access to Stability (from DS), Chill, and Corrupt Boon just ruins Engineers of all kinds.

Anyways, the greatest strength of an Engineer is supposed to be mid-fight versatility. It is currently not the case that engineers have that (and Rangers do it better with pet swapping, not that it’s great). For now, Engineer’s actual greatest strength is that if you want you can rock so many knockbacks that you can keep melee players on the ground for quite some time, and stability becomes a must-have. Of course, Engineers have no real ways to capitalize on this power because their direct damage options are so lackluster, but if you’re rolling with a team you can make the fight much easier for the team by keeping enemies on the floor.

I completely agree with the last paragraph. Engineers are the banana peel class of GW2

ShaunZ.1098:

I completely agree with the last paragraph. Engineers are the banana peel class of GW2

It’s too bad deployable turrets doesn’t work in WvW. I think you’d see jugglers a lot more if it did.

And also Forceful Explosives is still bugged and doesn’t seem to interact with Accelerant-Packed Turrets, which is likewise too bad because that’d make turret builds much better.

ShaunZ.1098:

KirinDave.6451:

aydenunited.5729:

Except that you’re nice and low on HP, and your condition damage goes limp at 25% with Automated Response. And even if you kill me the first time, I’ve already got Elixir R thrown on the ground and rez myself to continue the fight.

Hypothetical duels don’t really mean much, we could go back and forth all day countering what the other can do in words. I would love to face more tough Necros to work on my build, look me up in game and we’ll have a go sometime, should be fun.

I sort of agree with the sentiment that mind duels are only cool in Kungkittenmovies, but Necros are a very nasty class for engineer bunkers to deal with. I think it’s worth talking about because it highlights some of the weak points of TANKCAT.

Probably the hardest part about being an engineer is dealing with condition builds. Engineers simply lack good condition clearing, and they’ve very vulnerable to having their limited access to buffs stolen. TANKCAT’s primary damage output is Retaliation, but they actually have limited access to it. If you take it away or don’t do the bulk of your damage via direct hits, TANKCAT has basically no way to do anything but slowly lumber away dropping easily avoidable nail fields.

Necros are a particularly bad type of condition build to deal with for tanky engineers. Unless they’re spec’d heavily AoE, they will keep conditions on you always, corrupt your boons, ignore your burst, wait out your blocks. And if you are one of the rare engineers that spec’s to ignore conditions at 25% hp, the Necro can pop death shroud and actually hit shockingly hard with life blast. And that’s assuming they haven’t been banking their ultimate.

The main reason Necros are not an absolute terror in small groups in WvW is because they tend to roll with utilities that give them the best AoE condition damage options in the game. Swapping out Epidemic for Corrupt Boon changes that equation, as does trading in a staff for a dagger/dagger or dagger/focus. Occasionally you see users like Sheobix make roamer power builds and they’re pretty frightening to watch (necro’s melee damage is shockingly strong). I’ve never seen an engineer build has a chance in hell of beating a well melee necro. The easy access to Stability (from DS), Chill, and Corrupt Boon just ruins Engineers of all kinds.

Anyways, the greatest strength of an Engineer is supposed to be mid-fight versatility. It is currently not the case that engineers have that (and Rangers do it better with pet swapping, not that it’s great). For now, Engineer’s actual greatest strength is that if you want you can rock so many knockbacks that you can keep melee players on the ground for quite some time, and stability becomes a must-have. Of course, Engineers have no real ways to capitalize on this power because their direct damage options are so lackluster, but if you’re rolling with a team you can make the fight much easier for the team by keeping enemies on the floor.

I completely agree with the last paragraph. Engineers are the banana peel class of GW2

I can’t debate WvW, but just to clarify on the post about us removing conditions:

We can remove them via:

1) A trait that makes every potion use remove a condition, giving 2 removals per potion (considering the toolbelt skills)

2) Elixir C, removes all and the toolbelt removes 1

3) Elixir R, toolbelt skill

4) 15 points into Tools line means that at 25% life, you get all of those toolbelt Elixirs back

5) Automated Response gives immunity to any new conditions applied after 25% health

6) Kit Refinement + swap to Flamethrower = 1 condition removal every 10 seconds.

7) Medikit Drop Antidote every 15 seconds + the ability to stack 2-3 on the node itself if you are playing bunker.

8) Traits in Alchemy line mean 8% of all conditions are not affecting us to begin with

How much more condition removal do we need?

aydenunited.5729

We can remove them via:

1) A trait that makes every potion use remove a condition, giving 2 removals per potion (considering the toolbelt skills)

This is the primary way they do it. So it’s on long cooldowns, and you have to use a skill you would otherwise use to help yourself or your team for condition removal.

aydenunited.5729

2) Elixir C, removes all and the toolbelt removes 1

No one carries this, mostly because there is so little room in the Engineer utility slots for this. But yes, this is the Best Option.

aydenunited.5729

3) Elixir R, toolbelt skill

Using Elixir R for this is terrible, and we both know you shouldn’t use it that way.

aydenunited.5729

4) 15 points into Tools line means that at 25% life, you get all of those toolbelt Elixirs back

It’s way too late at this point in the fight.

aydenunited.5729

5) Automated Response gives immunity to any new conditions applied after 25% health

But at 25% you’re probably already well dotted up by most Necromancers, who stack very persistent bleeds. Necromancers can actually break the +100% condition duration cap for bleeds and poison. So at that point they’re going to start spike damaging anyways, and probably fearing you.

aydenunited.5729

6) Kit Refinement + swap to Flamethrower = 1 condition removal every 10 seconds.

I assume you meant Elixir Gun? Yes. But this is another utility slot. Doesn’t fit in many builds.

aydenunited.5729

7) Medikit Drop Antidote every 15 seconds + the ability to stack 2-3 on the node itself if you are playing bunker.

An awkward mechanic that only gets worse if you trait it.

aydenunited.5729

8) Traits in Alchemy line mean 8% of all conditions are not affecting us to begin with

This doesn’t inhibit condition stackers in the slightest. It’s really a rare out out for cripples and immobilizes.

How much more condition removal do we need?

For a bunker? You need both passive and active condition cures that fit in your build.

Most good bunkers have a variety of ways to do this. Most engineer builds do not have room for more that Formula 409. Very very few WvW builds can take the Elixir Gun. Where does Elixir C fit in Tankcat? What happens when you blow your Toss R to clear a single random condition (or maybe 2 if traited?). Besides, Elixir S has greatly eclipsed Elixir R in popularity, because it’s such a better defensive skill.

Necros don’t care about one or two clears every 30 seconds or so. Guardians can barely keep up with them on condition application. And necros counter-clear conditions very well too (their most-used heal actually clears all conditions and gets stronger for every condition, in their heal slot!).

It is, uh, not a mark of shame to have counter builds. They exist. It’s also not a mark of shame to admit the Engineer needs a lot of work and most popular builds don’t handle condition stackers very well.

aydenunited.5729:

I can’t debate WvW, but just to clarify on the post about us removing conditions:

We can remove them via:

1) A trait that makes every potion use remove a condition, giving 2 removals per potion (considering the toolbelt skills)

2) Elixir C, removes all and the toolbelt removes 1

3) Elixir R, toolbelt skill

4) 15 points into Tools line means that at 25% life, you get all of those toolbelt Elixirs back

5) Automated Response gives immunity to any new conditions applied after 25% health

6) Kit Refinement + swap to Flamethrower = 1 condition removal every 10 seconds.

7) Medikit Drop Antidote every 15 seconds + the ability to stack 2-3 on the node itself if you are playing bunker.

8) Traits in Alchemy line mean 8% of all conditions are not affecting us to begin with

How much more condition removal do we need?

If you mean my post, I specifically stated outside of an elixir build, so going 20 pts in to what is the elixir line and being forced to use elixirs is not the answer, the point being other classes do better conditon removal for less investment and allow greater build versitility. My thief for example does not have to be a hugely stealth heavy thief to have better removal than non-elixir build engies.

As for the rest:

- 15 pts again into the elxir line to have an 8% chance of removing one stack of say a zillion bleeds is weak.

- Elixir R toolbelt can indeed remove conditions, it is also far too important a survival skill to waste simply on removing conditions 90% of the time.

- Elxir C is never going in a utlity slot outside of an elixir build and even then rarely, there is too much competition for utlity slot spaces to use a skill that will be borderline useless aginst many builds.

- Toolbelt skills restore at 25%, will not have “all those elixirs” outside of an elixir build, it is very useful for stacking teh elixir R res. (thankyou Teldo)

- Automated response, 30 pts into the elixir line, again this a class that supposedly sacrifices damage for versitility / jack-of-all trades, having to go elixir build to get better than poor condition removal is the opposite of the alleged class design.

- If you are defending a point then yes, assuming you have the time you can stick a load of the 4 skill down if you use medkit, but it is a bit of niche situation and you will defend much better on your guardian, especially if you have more than 1 person to face.

You can also remove them by overcharging the healing turret, but it is on a 60 second cooldown.

There are indeed many condition removals on an engineer, however as I stated previously, outside of being pidgeon holed into an elixir build your options are weaker than many other classes for the same (or sometimes even greater) level of trait investment, that just seem entirely wrong that the alleged all-round / versatile class that gives up damage should have weaker baselevel condi removal than classes that have huge levels of damage by comparision (warrior /thief), it is simply ridiculous unbalanced design, hence why we have so many engineers playing.

KirinDave.6451:

aydenunited.5729

We can remove them via:

1) A trait that makes every potion use remove a condition, giving 2 removals per potion (considering the toolbelt skills)

This is the primary way they do it. So it’s on long cooldowns, and you have to use a skill you would otherwise use to help yourself or your team for condition removal.

aydenunited.5729

2) Elixir C, removes all and the toolbelt removes 1

No one carries this, mostly because there is so little room in the Engineer utility slots for this. But yes, this is the Best Option.

aydenunited.5729

3) Elixir R, toolbelt skill

Using Elixir R for this is terrible, and we both know you shouldn’t use it that way.

aydenunited.5729

4) 15 points into Tools line means that at 25% life, you get all of those toolbelt Elixirs back

It’s way too late at this point in the fight.

aydenunited.5729

5) Automated Response gives immunity to any new conditions applied after 25% health

But at 25% you’re probably already well dotted up by most Necromancers, who stack very persistent bleeds. Necromancers can actually break the +100% condition duration cap for bleeds and poison. So at that point they’re going to start spike damaging anyways, and probably fearing you.

aydenunited.5729

6) Kit Refinement + swap to Flamethrower = 1 condition removal every 10 seconds.

I assume you meant Elixir Gun? Yes. But this is another utility slot. Doesn’t fit in many builds.

aydenunited.5729

7) Medikit Drop Antidote every 15 seconds + the ability to stack 2-3 on the node itself if you are playing bunker.

An awkward mechanic that only gets worse if you trait it.

aydenunited.5729

8) Traits in Alchemy line mean 8% of all conditions are not affecting us to begin with

This doesn’t inhibit condition stackers in the slightest. It’s really a rare out out for cripples and immobilizes.

How much more condition removal do we need?

For a bunker? You need both passive and active condition cures that fit in your build.

Most good bunkers have a variety of ways to do this. Most engineer builds do not have room for more that Formula 409. Very very few WvW builds can take the Elixir Gun. Where does Elixir C fit in Tankcat? What happens when you blow your Toss R to clear a single random condition (or maybe 2 if traited?). Besides, Elixir S has greatly eclipsed Elixir R in popularity, because it’s such a better defensive skill.

Necros don’t care about one or two clears every 30 seconds or so. Guardians can barely keep up with them on condition application. And necros counter-clear conditions very well too (their most-used heal actually clears all conditions and gets stronger for every condition, in their heal slot!).

It is, uh, not a mark of shame to have counter builds. They exist. It’s also not a mark of shame to admit the Engineer needs a lot of work and most popular builds don’t handle condition stackers very well.

2 clears every 10 seconds. Both FT and EG with Kit Refinement clears a condition with kit swap every 10 seconds (roughly, it’s actually about 10 seconds from the moment the heal circle ends). Elixir R comes off of CD at 25% life, as well as our heal. If you think the fight is over at 25% for any bunker or medium build, I don’t believe you’ve tried out a lot of the things I’ve mentioned.

The only thing that counters an Engineer directly is based on the build, not the fact that it’s an Engineer. Necros are not a counter for Engies on the whole, they are just a counter for several popular builds that Engies tend to use. But when you have a board full of people saying we only have 1 viable build, no wonder. Nobody tries anything new, they just go with what everyone else is saying.

P.S. Sol, I wasn’t referring to your post, just the one I quoted in the original text.

Rhinzual.7861:

aydenunited.5729:

Terrahero.9358:

mifbifgiggle.6713:

probably 1v1s. get the right build and you simply won’t lose.

Funny, thats what some Eles say. And Necro’s. And Mesmers. And Guardians. And Thieves. And Rangers. And Warriors.

We cant all not lose. And with the distinct lack of proper damage, weaker support, lack of Stability, i dont think its the Engineer.
A necro would tear you a few new ones without a doubt. Making your damage even worst, and denying you all your boons.

We have just as much “do not die” ability than any other profession. 2 second reflect + 3 second block + 3 second block +3 second invulnerable + 3 second invulnerable at 25% life + utility heal off of CD at 25% life + 4-6 dodges in a row if spec’d the right way, Elixir R to rez yourself even if you don’t make it through the first two minutes of fighting.

Now say, vs. 1v2 and 1v3, other professions do better at us weathering several attackers, but 1v1, we’re in the same boat as anyone else.

As a scepter+dagger Necro specializing in conditions, I could just wait for your blocks to end, my attacks have zero projectiles to reflect, and I’ll just slap you with Blood is Power on top of my other bleeds and oh what’s that? You slapped a bunch of conditions on me and I’m losing health? One sec while I pop my 20 second CD heal and get rid of all those conditions that will fuel the strength of such an awesome heal. Boons on you? I’ll hold off on Consume Conditions and slap you with Corrupt Boon and then use my heal to get rid of all my self-inflicted conditions on top of whatever you gave me.

Your invulnerability skills? I can wait them out. Oh I see you got me nice and low on hp, but you’re bleeding out like a protagonist in Gantz, Death Shroud for long invulnerability, a quick fear, a strong life-steal that auto-hits, a half-decent auto-attack nuke and an entirely separate lifebar for you to chew through.

Whatever you can do, I can do better, sad but true.

I’m sure against most builds, while Necro’s are definitely one of my tougher fights one even lasted a full 2 mins in a 1v1 but it ended with me stomping him.

Without med kit and full 30 pts into Alchemy it’s impossible but with Antidote every 15 secs removing conditions. 3x 1500 heals every 12 secs and 6 k heal every 20 secs, plus elixir C which turns all conditions on me to boons every 32 secs it’s really hard to even dent me.

Not to mention that if you get me down to 25% life I become immune to all conditions and all my heals go off CD lol and I still have some pretty descent condition dmg to boot.

Pretty much the reason why I’ve never been beaten by a necro.

Why all the condition removal debate? The only dangerous condition is cripple.

Are we seriously going to say that engis are weak in 1v1s now? I thought it was just the lack of large-scale wvw power that people were complaining about.

I win, literally, statistically, 95%+ of the 1v1s I do. the only player i ever met who could consistently beat me was this thief who used the leap-back heal, a trap that summons a thief, and some other stuff that you barely ever see thieves use (first for me). I can beat ANY glass cannon (nothing to gloat about, they’re horrible), and i only lost to 1 guardian, a few mesmers (also good at 1v1s), no eles, no warriors, no thieves besides the one aforementioned, 1 REALLY GOOD ranger, who i later beat twice, and no necros (surprised? not difficult if you have 2-3 condition removals (i have 8+) and can keep up the pressure).

The important point of this post is that I’m not even good at the game. I click all my skills, i dodge at all the wrong times, i always end up with the enemy behind me, and i just generally suck. The build does all the work. Engineers may be bad at some things, but 1v1s are not one of them.

I’d like to mention that as i type this i am encountering 1v1s. The game sound is on, and i am “afk” in the EB JP. twice during this post i killed people.

I’ve been doing this every day for a few weeks, and i just keep racking up the kills. i think i might have spent 15s on repairs (1.3s each?) so far. Engis are meant for 1v1s. Stop arguing that engis are weak with your unsupported claims. There are a few builds that are completely viable in this game.

mifbifgiggle.6713:

Are we seriously going to say that engis are weak in 1v1s now? I win, literally, statistically, 95%+ of the 1v1s I do. .

I have a lvl 80 eng my first true love but meh, on my mesmer as an eng your just free badges. Im on Sea of Sorrows and would gladly hand you a lesson in the short falls of eng. To be fair I did get killed in a 1v1 by a cond eng a month or two ago. I love engies and in larger scale skirmishs if I ignore (some) of them then I am hitting the release button. Other than that.. your shield.. your tool kit shield.. your invis when your still standing right there.. its just stuff till you die anyway.

Kabooky.8071:

mifbifgiggle.6713:

Are we seriously going to say that engis are weak in 1v1s now? I win, literally, statistically, 95%+ of the 1v1s I do. .

I have a lvl 80 eng my first true love but meh, on my mesmer as an eng your just free badges. Im on Sea of Sorrows and would gladly hand you a lesson in the short falls of eng. To be fair I did get killed in a 1v1 by a cond eng a month or two ago. I love engies and in larger scale skirmishs if I ignore (some) of them then I am hitting the release button. Other than that.. your shield.. your tool kit shield.. your invis when your still standing right there.. its just stuff till you die anyway.

I don’t rock shield because I Iose too much dmg without blowtorch, don’t need it to survive at all.

If a mesmer is built shatter spec they can’t survive long enough to down me, if there condition spec I have too much removal.

The key to making your engineer survive is Protection it’s the one thing engineers lack but you can make up for it with skill traits, runes, and Elixir C.

mifbifgiggle.6713:

Are we seriously going to say that engis are weak in 1v1s now? I thought it was just the lack of large-scale wvw power that people were complaining about.

I win, literally, statistically, 95%+ of the 1v1s I do. the only player i ever met who could consistently beat mhe was this thief who used the leap-back heal, a trap that summons a thief, and some other stuff that you barely ever see thieves use (first for me). I can beat ANY glass cannon (nothing to gloat about, they’re horrible), and i only lost to 1 guardian, a few mesmers (also good at 1v1s), no eles, no warriors, no thieves besides the one aforementioned, 1 REALLY GOOD ranger, who i later beat twice, and no necros (surprised? not difficult if you have 2-3 condition removals (i have 8+) and can keep up the pressure).

The important point of this post is that I’m not even good at the game. I click all my skills, i dodge at all the wrong times, i always end up with the enemy behind me, and i just generally suck. The build does all the work. Engineers may be bad at some things, but 1v1s are not one of them.

I’d like to mention that as i type this i am encountering 1v1s. The game sound is on, and i am “afk” in the EB JP. twice during this post i killed people.

I’ve been doing this every day for a few weeks, and i just keep racking up the kills. i think i might have spent 15s on repairs (1.3s each?) so far. Engis are meant for 1v1s. Stop arguing that engis are weak with your unsupported claims. There are a few builds that are completely viable in this game.

Mind sharing the build and gear setup you run in WvW?

…is rerolling.

Kabooky.8071:

mifbifgiggle.6713:

Are we seriously going to say that engis are weak in 1v1s now? I win, literally, statistically, 95%+ of the 1v1s I do. .

I have a lvl 80 eng my first true love but meh, on my mesmer as an eng your just free badges. Im on Sea of Sorrows and would gladly hand you a lesson in the short falls of eng. To be fair I did get killed in a 1v1 by a cond eng a month or two ago. I love engies and in larger scale skirmishs if I ignore (some) of them then I am hitting the release button. Other than that.. your shield.. your tool kit shield.. your invis when your still standing right there.. its just stuff till you die anyway.

I don’t use any of the three things you mentioned, but i do have to say that i lose to mesmers more than any other class. They are the only real counter for me. So if you have skill, you probably would win. Play on any other class besides that thief build i mentioned and i will win most of the time.

EDIT: you may have seen me and beaten me if you go in the EB JP. I’m the JQ engi who sits there at least a few hours every other day, sometimes every day, waiting for 1v1s. In a thief hood, wearing dark red, bright yellow and white

Liquid.9672:

mifbifgiggle.6713:

Are we seriously going to say that engis are weak in 1v1s now? I thought it was just the lack of large-scale wvw power that people were complaining about.

I win, literally, statistically, 95%+ of the 1v1s I do. the only player i ever met who could consistently beat mhe was this thief who used the leap-back heal, a trap that summons a thief, and some other stuff that you barely ever see thieves use (first for me). I can beat ANY glass cannon (nothing to gloat about, they’re horrible), and i only lost to 1 guardian, a few mesmers (also good at 1v1s), no eles, no warriors, no thieves besides the one aforementioned, 1 REALLY GOOD ranger, who i later beat twice, and no necros (surprised? not difficult if you have 2-3 condition removals (i have 8+) and can keep up the pressure).

The important point of this post is that I’m not even good at the game. I click all my skills, i dodge at all the wrong times, i always end up with the enemy behind me, and i just generally suck. The build does all the work. Engineers may be bad at some things, but 1v1s are not one of them.

I’d like to mention that as i type this i am encountering 1v1s. The game sound is on, and i am “afk” in the EB JP. twice during this post i killed people.

I’ve been doing this every day for a few weeks, and i just keep racking up the kills. i think i might have spent 15s on repairs (1.3s each?) so far. Engis are meant for 1v1s. Stop arguing that engis are weak with your unsupported claims. There are a few builds that are completely viable in this game.

Mind sharing the build and gear setup you run in WvW?

Don’t want it to get nerfed, but i’ll just say it is a full elixir build, supply drop, p/p, running a very disorganized mesh of prec/power/tough/cond damage gear.

I’m almost positive that the build still has lots of room for improvement, because no careful planning went into the gear besides general guidelines, and i am constantly changing traits.

mifbifgiggle.6713:

I’m almost positive that the build still has lots of room for improvement, because no careful planning went into the gear besides general guidelines, and i am constantly changing traits.

Ahh gotcha thanks. It was already nerfed back in BWE 3, so I kinda doubt it would get nerfed again. Then again, knowing Anet, anything is on the table at all times.

I handle myself well enough as Engineer, so, poo poo on all of you who say that we can’t compete with the other classes.

That “easy access to stability” is via a grandmaster trait in a trait line few people use… at least ones wishing to deal damage. All 3 seconds of it – you have to be in DS to use it so no chaining, no quickness so you can’t use it for burst…