Guild Wars 2

Finished my first round of numbers with the grenade engi using berzerkers gear, I’m going to throw together the numbers for rampagers and rabid soon.

Build

As you can see the grenade engineer does plenty of DPS on it’s own, while covering all 3 condition damage bases and giving regeneration to our party.

For the purpose of enduring Damage, I assumed that because your at range, you prob, don’t have to dodge roll as often, so I cut the number of dodges in half and gave half up-time on it.

Other vulnerability builds I’ve tried don’t get anywhere near 6000 dps, and usually have much more unreliable vulnerability up-time. This does not bode well for necros :<

Numbers for rampagers and rabid are in.

Just over 5000 DPS, even with a condition build that applies full up-time on burning poison and bleed, it just cant recover from how much more powerful crit-damage is.

I know it will be a dps loss, but can you see how effective a full trinket set of the ascended celestial gear is?

Dethmonger.3274:

I know it will be a dps loss, but can you see how effective a full trinket set of the ascended celestial gear is?

I’m guessing between 5000-6000, i actually broke my spreadsheet so… :<

Honestly, the amount of defense your gonna get from that, isn’t going to save you often enough to make the loss in DPS worth it.

258% critdmg – gg.

Forestnator.6298:

258% critdmg – gg.

It’s actually only 108% crit damage, but since crits original give you 150% damage, the damage modifier comes out to 2.58 or 258%.

Isn’t Scope still broken? Also, i feel like target the maimed would be a more reliable damage increase in terms of actual fighting since unless you are not targeted, your endurance will not be at 100%. Lastly, what would the dps of suprise shot with SD instead of trying to use rocket turret?

Scope is broken, and grandes are powerful, but… i wouldn’t recomnd a build fully based around grenades, your wrist will thank you! :] and it is really not worth it unless you don’t plan on doing anything with your hands for the rest of your life!

Would you mind explaining how you calculated these? It looks as if you added up the damage of each skill and say that’s the DPS.

Also 25 stacks vulnerability and 20 stacks bleed are not possible in usual cases without condition duration. Even with that: in wvw u must try hard to get those stacks. Just be a bit more realistic and berserker dps ends up at below 4k – while rampager does 6k dps. cheers.

Adamantium.3682:

Would you mind explaining how you calculated these? It looks as if you added up the damage of each skill and say that’s the DPS.

[Damage] * [Damage Modifer] / Casttime * [Skill % Uptime] = DPS

Skill % Uptime is [Castime]/[Castime+Cooldown]

This is the most accurate way of calculating the DPS of a certain skill over a long period of time.

[Damage] * [Damage Modifer] / Casttime = How much DPS a skill does
[Castime]/[Castime+Cooldown] = What % of the fight your apply that DPS

Forestnator.6298:

Also 25 stacks vulnerability and 20 stacks bleed are not possible in usual cases without condition duration. Even with that: in wvw u must try hard to get those stacks. Just be a bit more realistic and berserker dps ends up at below 4k – while rampager does 6k dps. cheers.

Remember you get 30% condition duration from traits. And you can easily pick up 10% more from 2 runes of lyssa, but the 30% from traits is enough.

25 vuln and 20 stacks of bleed were mathematically calculated, not estimated. That’s why I had to calculate attacks per second and those fun numbers at the bottom.

My issue with it is that it looks like you added up all the skills for DPS, even though you can’t use them all at once or even the instant each one is available. This is what a rotation is for. Also you do not take into account flight time, and you’re assuming all 3 grenades are hitting every time. Any grenadier can tell you this is not realistic.

I never understood using spreadsheet work to figure out DPS. It’s usually not something you can calculate easily, it’s something you go and test. I don’t mean to devalue anything you’ve done and I am not even saying I could do better, maybe I just don’t fully understand what you’ve done here.

You have told us that you calculated it using the damage formula, but nothing further than that so it leaves me with a lot more questions than answers. What rotation were you using? Against what armor level is this? What does “4” mean for cooldown of rocket turret and how on earth is it contributing 200 DPS by itself?

I’m not saying hitting every single grenade is realistic, and I’m not saying engineers do more damage then warriors. We have 1 engineer, and ONLY 1 engineer, in the party, because the numbers you see above only account for the vulnerability on the engineers OWN attack. Realistically the engineer does MUCH more damage, because of the bonus all 4 other party members get from the vuln.

That being said it only takes 3 warriors to generate the same amount of vuln. Warriors have low BASE DPS though, so 1 engineers 1 warrior and 1 hunter > 3 Warriors.

The big problem is that, although engis have a great vuln build that is one of the most desired party slots in high-end PvE, if you have 2 engis in the party, the engi doesn’t have any way of bringing competitive DPS, offensive buffs, or defensive buffs to the table.

These numbers are to be taken with a merit of what they entail, standing still, dodging once every 20 seconds, not dying, hitting every grenade. Yes, it is unrealistic, but because I use the SAME “unrealistic” notions across each of my builds, you can get an idea of how the classes compare to each other, and then say, well even though hunter sword does a lot of DPS, it’s requirements are 10x harder then the warriors, so something needs to be done.

Scootabuser.4915:

The big problem is that, although engis have a great vuln build that is one of the most desired party slots in high-end PvE, if you have 2 engis in the party, the engi doesn’t have any way of bringing competitive DPS, offensive buffs, or defensive buffs to the table.

This perpetuates the negative stereotypes of Engineers. This suggests that the only viable build is a Grenadier and that no other build can bring anything the Grenadier can’t. That’s silly.

Adamantium.3682:

Scootabuser.4915:

The big problem is that, although engis have a great vuln build that is one of the most desired party slots in high-end PvE, if you have 2 engis in the party, the engi doesn’t have any way of bringing competitive DPS, offensive buffs, or defensive buffs to the table.

This perpetuates the negative stereotypes of Engineers. This suggests that the only viable build is a Grenadier and that no other build can bring anything the Grenadier can’t. That’s silly.

Prove me wrong, you don’t have to SHOW me, just TELL me a build that does 6000 dps (without vuln) and I will do the numbers for you.

It sure as hell isn’t a condition build, because nade engineer can get 25 bleed, burning, and poison, 100% up time, and it still doesn’t hit 6000 DPS with rampagers, carrion, or rabid.

Adamantium.3682:

My issue with it is that it looks like you added up all the skills for DPS, even though you can’t use them all at once or even the instant each one is available. This is what a rotation is for. Also you do not take into account flight time, and you’re assuming all 3 grenades are hitting every time. Any grenadier can tell you this is not realistic.

I never understood using spreadsheet work to figure out DPS. It’s usually not something you can calculate easily, it’s something you go and test. I don’t mean to devalue anything you’ve done and I am not even saying I could do better, maybe I just don’t fully understand what you’ve done here.

You have told us that you calculated it using the damage formula, but nothing further than that so it leaves me with a lot more questions than answers. What rotation were you using? Against what armor level is this? What does “4” mean for cooldown of rocket turret and how on earth is it contributing 200 DPS by itself?

Flight time, is not applicable, at most, you lose 1-2 seconds before you start applying damage every 1 second. (you arn’t limited to 3 grenades in the air at once, just 1 throw every 3 seconds). So if the fight was say, 10 seconds long (CoF P1) it might be a problem (10% dps loss)… BUT the longer the flight drags on, the less it effects the numbers (1% dps loss at 100 seconds ect…) It’s not like flight time is decreasing the number of grenades you throw per second, it just means that your FIRST grenades take a second longer to land, the second set of grenades will hit 1 second after the first set and ect… ect…

The purpose again, is not to say “this class does this much damage” its about the journey, not the destination. S/W hunters do 7000 DPS on paper, Warriors only do 5000, so why is the general consensus that rangers are broken? Well rangers have to keep the pet alive and have to deal with being immobilized every half second. So you can assume that, buffing a damage coefficient on the ranger, isn’t going to fix the underlying problem of the classs. But were off topic back to engineer.

Rocket turret shoots 1 shot every 4 seconds, for the damage shown, Damage/Cast Time = DPS since its a separate entity, note that with the 30% condition duration (which the turret does get) it does provide 100% uptime on burning, which is why I have it listed. 500 DPS for 1 utility slot is pretty strong, but utilities are flexible, and you don’t always have to take the extra 500 DPS if something else would be more useful for a particular fight.

This build this pretty fun…. could it be easily modified to rabid armor/rampage/soldier gear? and how often does the turret cleanse proc for ya? my biggest issue is condition removal

Adamantium.3682:

Scootabuser.4915:

The big problem is that, although engis have a great vuln build that is one of the most desired party slots in high-end PvE, if you have 2 engis in the party, the engi doesn’t have any way of bringing competitive DPS, offensive buffs, or defensive buffs to the table.

This perpetuates the negative stereotypes of Engineers. This suggests that the only viable build is a Grenadier and that no other build can bring anything the Grenadier can’t. That’s silly.

No it’s no, it doesn’t matter if you like it or not, grenades are our only viable PvE build for high lvl fractals and speed-runs.

Spiuk.8421:

Adamantium.3682:

Scootabuser.4915:

The big problem is that, although engis have a great vuln build that is one of the most desired party slots in high-end PvE, if you have 2 engis in the party, the engi doesn’t have any way of bringing competitive DPS, offensive buffs, or defensive buffs to the table.

This perpetuates the negative stereotypes of Engineers. This suggests that the only viable build is a Grenadier and that no other build can bring anything the Grenadier can’t. That’s silly.

No it’s no, it doesn’t matter if you like it or not, grenades are our only viable PvE build for high lvl fractals and speed-runs.

Viable and “The Best” are two very different, things, especially in a game that sets the bar SO LOW.

The purpose of this post wasn’t even to say that this was “the best” build. It was just to show that, engineers have at least 1 build, that are on par with other classes, giving you a reason to bring them. Maybe one day I’ll run the DPS for a bomb/Rifle build and it will pull off 7000 DPS :O who knows.

Vlerden.4182:

This build this pretty fun…. could it be easily modified to rabid armor/rampage/soldier gear? and how often does the turret cleanse proc for ya? my biggest issue is condition removal

Rampager I wouldn’t do, because you have less DPS (even against heavily armored bosses kitten condition damage kitten .

Rabid still does ~5000 DPS and you get some extra toughness.

You wouldn’t want to go soldiers because it has no crit chance, a lot of your vuln and bonus DPS from bleeds is based on crit.

And the heal turret is optional, I think I just put that there for a placeholder because it has some decent party support. Engineers don’t have the best condition removals, so you would either have to drop Elixer S or flame turret, or work out some party composition with a necro or guardian.

well i was condition nades multi kit b4 the patch… and ive been doing a hgh-Esq build since and i dont like it…. not that fun… i like grenades and this seemed like a good build to try…. im rocking rabid gear …. and i was starting to grab soldier back, rampager amulet and trinks, and rabid rings…. i didnnt even realize turret had removal on overcharge… what if i added elixir c to healing turret?

Vlerden.4182:

well i was condition nades multi kit b4 the patch… and ive been doing a hgh-Esq build since and i dont like it…. not that fun… i like grenades and this seemed like a good build to try…. im rocking rabid gear …. and i was starting to grab soldier back, rampager amulet and trinks, and rabid rings…. i didnnt even realize turret had removal on overcharge… what if i added elixir c to healing turret?

If it keeps you alive better, go for it.