Guild Wars 2

Didn’t really see a thread like this around and I’m actually pretty excited about what they’ve shown us. Would be sort of interesting to get a idea of what the community thinks of the Scrapper ^^. Remember, dont get hurt over someone elses opinions!
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My Thoughts
Ok, so! This PoI literally made me buy HoT! I have been a Altoholic since Beta and could never really find a main that i could just be happy with. Mostly juggling back between Mesmer and Engineer or Ele. As i watched this Live stream, I could literally picture over 3 builds that id actually enjoy playing with, which is more then any other class for me at the moment. The Things that particularly caught my attention more then anything was of course the Gyros! The freaking adorable critters. Hammer Skills! Build Diversity and Synergy with the Engineer! And last, the amount of team play the scrapper can provide!

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Gyros- Ahhh the Gyros~
The goods ~ What im loving most about the Gyros is the fact that they arent all directed around dealing damage in a bland way. These seem to be designed in a simple yet complex way to provide more then one use without being a summon and forget type of playstyle. Team based, Solo play, both were nailed perfectly giving us a wide range of playstyles. They are also aesthetically amazing!

The Bads ~ While i do love the Gyros. I feel like they should have been a tad bit larger (Atleast the Bulwark). I can see the reason for the size since they can be used as shields, but it kind of takes away from the appearance of them.

Also im still a bit…dissapointed that they only last 15 seconds. Ik I said that not having a summon and forget type of playstyle was good, but i just feel like the duration of them is pretty short at 15 seconds. ( I really wanted to run around from fight to fight with these on in pve)
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Hammer!
Ok, I honestly wasnt really expecting the hammer to be good, its my least favorite weapon in this game. I was thinking this was just going to be some slow weapon that got dumped onto the engineer. But what they showed was just amazing! It was completely opposite of what I was expecting which caught me by surprise.

Rocket Charge ~ Rocket boots is one of my favorite engineer utilities so i just fell in love with our leap skill. Pistol/Shield is my main set up for PvP, basically Hammer #2 replaced it and then some with a whirl finisher (My favorite Finisher! ^^).

ThunderClap ~ I was also believing that a static field wouldn’t be that amazing. Having played Staff Ele for so long, i know how static fields work. But this was a Staff Mesmer + Staff Ele #5 Skill both in one!
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Basically, I love what they have done with the Elite spec! Not only have they made me purchase a 100$ Expansion pack, but they also cured my 3 year altism. Cant wait to play scrapper in Beta testing ^^

I could go on with the feedback, but its thundering really bad in my area and a power surge would seriously be the death of me right now lol.

Hammer looks great, if they don’t drop the attack power it could be really solid.

First two minor’s ie the function gyro are almost completely worthless in PvE, I don’t understand why the engineer has so many really bad Traits. Two terribad traits in GM slots on core engineer, a minor which is overidden in use entirely by Adrenal Implant and the Scrapper’s second minor will barely see any use at all. It’s a really bad trait.

Whoever is organising Engi traits, has either a very poor understanding of the class, a very limited knowledge of traits or a lack of imagination and planning.

Gyro’s are looking a mixed bag. They’re very powerful in someways, but again, lacking in imagination. Just a bunch of effects we’ve seen before but exaggerated. Heal gyro, grants a water field and straight up pulsing heals…..like umpteen other heals in the game. Purge drone is basically a temporary version of rangers Signet of renewal, but with a poison field active. The whirl finisher one could be quite intersting to use if you can find room for it, given the total lack of stun-breakers and the fact that we’ll still need to slot kits.
Stealth Drone could be really useful, except for the toolbelt which is completely worthless in PvE. Excellent tho in PvP/WvW.

wolfyrik.2017:

Hammer looks great, if they don’t drop the attack power it could be really solid.

First two minor’s ie the function gyro are almost completely worthless in PvE, I don’t understand why the engineer has so many really bad Traits. Two terribad traits in GM slots on core engineer, a minor which is overidden in use entirely by Adrenal Implant and the Scrapper’s second minor will barely see any use at all. It’s a really bad trait.

Whoever is organising Engi traits, has either a very poor understanding of the class, a very limited knowledge of traits or a lack of imagination and planning.

Gyro’s are looking a mixed bag. They’re very powerful in someways, but again, lacking in imagination. Just a bunch of effects we’ve seen before but exaggerated. Heal gyro, grants a water field and straight up pulsing heals…..like umpteen other heals in the game. Purge drone is basically a temporary version of rangers Signet of renewal, but with a poison field active. The whirl finisher one could be quite intersting to use if you can find room for it, given the total lack of stun-breakers and the fact that we’ll still need to slot kits.
Stealth Drone could be really useful, except for the toolbelt which is completely worthless in PvE. Excellent tho in PvP/WvW.

I actually feel as though the 2 minors are in a good place. I see potential in the function gyro in all forms of play. It is basically a killer or a reviver which ontop of being a ranged revive, gives boon benefits which inturn can heal you if you take Rapid regneration. Which is giving you more survivability or giving whoever you revived the option to retreat at super speed which matters if the attacker is using melee.

So… that would be my personal opinion on things so far, i reserve my judgement for the traits till i actually worked with them and tested em proper in the next beta…

….well for a melee setup the gyros are pretty darn…weird. Is like you would go into battle with a sledgehammer and ming vases. One or two strong cleave attacks or a well placed aoe and the gyros are shot to the moon.

Also the stealth one is pretty darn useless in pve like it is right now. Stealth sorta should do the opposide of drawing aggro and with a gyro..especially a squishy one its the opposide of viable. Imagine you stealth yourself to rez a teammate in peace or want to escape melee for a moment to heal up and stealth to do so…guess what the enemie will do. They showed the issue pretty perfect on the pvp battles against the…i believe its a jotun…eh whatever back to the point. The dude made a bee line for the drone and hit the stealthed engi pretty darn hard right away too. If id use a stealth gyro in battle then this is the opposide of what id want to happen…specially on an engi who does not use the thief thingy where you attack out of stealth for extra damage or whatever that does.. not a thief player myself. Imo the stealth drone should atleast have a few seconds of self stealth if you deploy it. The toolbelt is really nasty (in a good way) and this surely can be very VERY usefull…more in wvw and pvp then pve..but yea good enough for my taste, thiefes and mesmers surely gonna hate that gyro a lot.
Yea i understand that something like this gyro needs a counterplay with its 30 second of stealth…so its imo fair the gyro got a life bar…but atleast squeeze in a few seconds of self stealth to make it count to either retreat from melee for a moment, just heal up in peace or revive an ally or something 6 secs or so maybe to have a buffer.

The bulwark one.. oh boy. Well if it NEEDS to have a life bar then it needs a LOT more health then that, wouldnt say twice… but close to twice the health. Specially in team related activities where enemies can hit like trucks this poor fella would be reduced to a pile of dust within a blink of an eye. I mean sure.. it takes half your abuse and your teams abuse…but still, it needs more life points then this. The toolbelt is usefull…if you need an extra reflect and 5 seconds duration is good too and it moves with you too. I maybe would add a light field to it..ya know some retailiation never hurt anybody…HA!

The blast gyro…heh the knockback is nasty and its unblockable too, i personally gonna have a lot of fun with that one. The health bar is understandable on this one…cause this is something you might want to not get in your face and its not blockable so you atleast got the chance to destroy it before it knocks your teeth out, a blast finish would be nice on it though. I mean its 25 secs recharge so a blast finish should be in the budget. Toolbelt skill with insta super speed? Sure…but maybe 4 secs instead of 3?
Also was it me or did this one take its sweet time to actually explode? Might be something to take a look at too..

Master shredder gyro… the yellow menace, clearly my personal favourite…this nutcase goes crazy on combofields and gets put on the field with ground target…love it…but this one shouldnt have a health bar at all. This is a gyro you would want to get away from rather then just quickly use a cleave or two to get rid of it. The toolbelt is solid…but the life bar is out of place at this one. Maybe a small defiance bar that makes it explode once its empty would do the trick? Just tossing out ideas.

The purger…ehhhh… not really all that helpfull imo. It should clear 3 condies per pulse and spawn behind the scrapper, out of melee range….basically using the scrapper as a “meat shield” and doing its darn hardest to stay away from anything that could possible harm it, even when flying to allies it should play VERY save. The toolbelt is a “ehhh i guess it can be usefull” sort of deal to me…but not really sure where to put it atm. Prolly would be the best for me to do field tests before i really judge it.

The medic…boy oh boy healing turret you can ease up and go to bed…you wont get replaced that quick, not if the medic doesnt eat its plate of spinach in the next time. The little fella´s heal is not really that strong…well the toolbelt is wonderfull but i rather use a healing turret´s overcharge together with some hammer leaps and blast it at the same time for 1 or 2 leap heals and the usual detonation heal then to slot the medic in its current state. Maybe if the field would pulse some condi clear the thing would look a bit different…

Hammer… YES PLEASE, all of it over my body. Oil me up with this thing. No objections whatsoever. Love it so far, at the beta we will see how the numbers are then damage wise.

Also the art team coughed up a pretty darn epic skin for the hammer that looks like it hurts a lot..and the drone fellas are adorable so lets not leave that point out. Also no excuses anymore for crappy looking engi tech\armor skins..you showed you can do these visuals pretty darn good..so lets keep it on that. We good?

Basaltface.2786:

….well for a melee setup the gyros are pretty darn…weird. Is like you would go into battle with a sledgehammer and ming vases.

This quote is the best way I’ve seen so far to describe the contradiction of Scrapper being a melee playstyle!

will rival/surpass ele in terms of group support in pve….

As a roamer, I’m pretty excited. The scrapper might have some great disengage ability with its access to superspeed and the hammer’s leap (1k range on the tooltip) + block.

The trait line also seems quite solid and brings enough to actually be a replacement for a core trait (unlike -cough- Berserker).

Stealth bot needs to not pull agro in PVE. It’s literally the only thing outside the hammer that makes me at all interested in this specialization, the ability to sit in stealth for a duration is the only reason thief outplays Engi in the stealth game for PVE content as it is now. That’s what I was hoping for, “ok at least I got something that can let me replicate some of my thief tricks”

The Icon for the Shredder gyro’s toolbelt skill is the same as BoB, I’m perfectly fine with reusing icons, BUT I’d see using these two skills together, having identical icons in the same build kind of sucks. I’d suggest just using http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Field_ should work fine but really anything that won’t leave us with 2 skills in one build being the same.

And last… PLEASE ohh lord PLEASE let me use hammer without having to use Scrapper!!!!

I love the hammer, it’s amazing, it’s great. But, the trait tree is completely PVP oriented, at this point I’ve accepted that (yeah going through the 5 stages of grief), and the 2 things that look nice for PVE is the hammer and the stealth gyro (maybe shredder?) anyways, I feel like i’m stuck taking a bunch of “junk” (don’t mean to be rude but it’s just not made for PVE, maybe raids but the more I hear the more I’m thinking raids won’t be all that fun for me as it sounds like they’re far more of the PVP style of play than the PVE style). I hate that I have to take a bunch of things that I won’t be using just to get something new and fun. I feel it’s quite a silly restriction.

I understand that you may want to lock it behind HoT and that may be the only way you currently have to do it, but ohh god it’s so limiting. It annoys the hell out of me. Please give us freedom, please make me happy. What do I have to do to change your mind? name it and I’ll do it!

Lastly I’ll just say, it seems like this will be amazingly fun in WvW something I do some of, I simply hate the style of play in typical PVP (sPVP/Roaming) but the team play in WvW is fun to me, and I’ll enjoy it there. But for PVE… this is just not a specialization we’ll use unfortunately. No offense is intended just like, that’s my opinion man. (ok I feel it’s more a fact but I couldn’t help it, Big Lebowski is the kitten).

I hope I was constructive, I hope no one takes offense, but it’s how I see the current status of this specialization. Irenio you did an awesome job, truly you did, but it’s just not very conducive to my style of play

Agreed. Getting aggroed in PvE makes this drone literally useless. Could have been such a great skill, but right now – nope, not gonna happen

I really like this class, or to be more clear: I like this class’s potential.

There are two big issues that first need to be addressed before overall balanced is addressed.

Problem: Class Mechanic – Look, I love the ability to stomp and revive from afar, but this by itself is a bit lacking. Whats worst, it is useless in way too many circumstances.

Solution: – Merge Decisive renown into Functional Gyro and add a heavily PvE-centric trait in its place. Also consider providing aegis instead of might.

Problem: Gyros In Melee – The role Gyros play in melee combat MUST be addressed. I know that some amount of counter play is required, but we need to be able to gain SOME use out of the Gyros before they are inevitably cleaved to death.

Solution: – Block for X secs every Y interval. Unblockable skills as well as dedicated pressure are the counters. These values changed base on Gyro.

Otherwise, I think the class is in a very healthy pre-BWE position. Much better than many other classes so far.

I am pretty excited about Scrapper. Previously Engie was my #2 (behind ele) but I hated that it didn’t have melee options. Now I can have it all!

Hammer – great melee damage, good defensive capabilties, excellent mobility (I miss my 15s RtL…no LONGER!!). Even more, if healing turret wasn’t strong enough already, using 3x leap finisher with the 2x blast should be a…full heal every time!! This is going to be OP.

Free shadow refuge++, Yes please!! Of course, there are other good elites, but I can def. see this getting use if I want to build more glassy, even just using it to engage or prevent stomps.

Ranged res/stomp – You will see the BEST engies successfully 1v2 with this. Engie is the future youtube-darling 1v2 class with this capability.

All the super-speed is amazing… love it.

Add all that ontop of normal engie capabilities, and I even think we’ll be able to make a build that gets away from the “condition problem” too.

I really like the new tools these bring to the class. Sure, the mechanics didn’t change that much, but getting a true melee option changes the playstyle way more than something crappy like tempest ever will.

Hammer skills are the real star of Scrapper being great in defensive and offensive combat. Heck their defensive skills are even offensive skills if used properly.

Gyros have some issues they may need to work on after beta because they appear to be mixing Gyros between Range and Melee combat styles.

Certain Gyros you don’t want to have for melee combat due to being too close to AoE hits by melee attacks and certain Gyros are not as effective in long range due to time it takes for them to reach their target (ally or enemy).

However, it certainly brings on the frontline in your face combat style that was expect thanks to the Hammer skill and in a rich Combo field environment Scrapper can go crazy even with Super Speed.

I’m going to provide a little pre BWE3 feedback since we won’t have any environment to test out changes before HOT launches.

Hammer:
Awesome! Great job Irenio, seriously. The hammer looks fun and worth using. For an Engineer having a weapon that doesn’t take a back seat to our utilities is a new concept. I hope that I am not wrong, but I see myself using hammer a lot and not just for the big skills before I switch back to a kit like we all do with rifle/pistols. Kudos.

Traits:
I think these look good overall. There are some meaningful choices to be made, and they really seem to change how your build works depending on which way you go. There are 3 pretty distinct and consistent themes in the traits that you can choose, stability, super speed, or tank. I would have prefered to see something a little more varied than stability and tank, something that you could choose for more damage maybe. Before I get my hands on it to play that’s a minor complaint because I do think the trait line is set up well.

Specific thoughts on some traits:
Minors are okay but I am strongly against the 30s cooldown on the function gyro right now. It’s the change to the profession mechanic (and by far the most niche of all the elite specs IMO) and if we have to revive 2 allies we can only use it on one of them? I really would like to see this play in BWE3 with no cooldown and see how that feels. I believe Decisive Renown should be an Adept or merged with the first minor trait, it is a very niche trait. I am currently buying into the whole functional gyro thing right now (even though we haven’t seen it… -.-) but additional effects on revives should be a choice, I don’t want that to take up a slot for something else that should be baseline instead. Like… Shocking Speed. Maybe just swap the two. OH! Super Speed duration should totally be a minor. Totally. 33% or something. This is the solution Irenio. Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

Adepts are great, I like the choice here and I like that you’re starting on the path of some consistently themed choices. Aside from the swap between Decisive Renown and Shocking Speed I have no issues with the Adepts.

Masters look great as well Rapid Regeneration and Mass Momentum are some serious competitors. Expert Examination would be great for a tank.

Grandmasters that are meaningful! Big kudos for that Irenio, I feel that some of the elite specs have really dropped the ball on this one but not the Scrapper. I have one thing that I think needs to change here, and it’s a cooldown reduction to the hammer trait. That’s not just because there’s a hammer trait anyways, or that most weapons have them. It’s because we can’t weapon swap and kits are already so invasive to every Engineer build that if we’re going into Scrapper and choosing the GM trait just for the hammer, it should make us much less reliant on kits by letting us use hammer skills more often. That’s my $.02 on the matter. I’ve seen a lot of suggestions to add a cooldown here, but I think there’s a really good reason for it not just “well it’s the hammer trait”. Let us use the hammer and not be forced back into kits.

Gyros:
Okay Irenio I’ve given you a lot of props so far and I’m going to continue to be honest… I’m willing to give the Gyros a fair try in BWE3 but I am really skeptical on the health bar. I feel that nothing has been learned from turrets which is very disappointing. You said in the POI they had large health pools, but judging from the numbers they were taking and how far their health was going down that’s just not true. Start with doubling the health pools, but even then they’re toast in WvW or boss level PvE. Ideally they would be invulnerable and we could test how that looks, and I really would like to try that direction, but with only one BWE to test in I’m not sure you want to do something that drastic. As the next best thing I think they should receive all control effects and conditions but be immune to direct damage, basically Endure Pain. Sure in PvP that’s an advantage to condi users, but it’s not spike damage which is the real issue with turrets and it looks like it will be with these as well. With this approach instead enemies can still CC them, blind them, slow them, even kill them with the damaging conditions, but they won’t be smashed to bits in 1 second from Hundred Blades or something like that. This proposed change may not even need an increase to their health pool depending on how it tested in BWE3. Also recharge should start on skill use! We’re really right back into turret territory with these effective 30-50s cooldowns. Not cool man, not cool.

Medic Gyro. There’s already a ton of feedback about how this skill just isn’t going to work. A utility that pulses a heal every 3 seconds would be great. A heal skill that pulses every 3s is terrible. Up the initial heal to at least 4k, up the pulse to 1 second intervals. Lower pulse to ~500 if necessary. Maybe just turn it into a Troll Unguent like effect in AOE, stronger for us though of course since it’s our actual heal skill. Maybe add retaliation. I like the toolbelt, good job there.

Bulwark Gyro. Honestly provided gyros don’t die instantly to direct damage like turrets this one looks like the best of the bunch. Love the effect, love the toolbelt. From the POI we’re guessing about 12-15k health? That’s not even close to enough even if they could be made immune to direct damage. Let’s say 15k, using it in a party where everyone is taking damage means each player has 3k damage reduced before this thing dies. That doesn’t seem very meaningful to me. That’s a crit of an auto attack.

Blast Gyro. Maybe the worst one. Maybe. We guess that you had Rabid gear in the POI if so I’m willing to at least see the damage this guy does, but it seems incredibly underwhelming. The toolbelt seems boring. I would like this to be our source of “long” Super Speed (I know due to the nature of the effect it can’t be like Swiftness). 3s is what we’re getting from blast and leap finishers through traits plus all the cool stuff those blasts and leaps do. If we have this as a 30s cooldown that only works in bomb radius for our allies with no other effects, I want to see at least 5s here.

Shredder Gyro I will again have to go with the caveat of “If This Thing Doesn’t Die Immediately Like Turrets”… (ITTDDILT might become my new short hand). Even more applicable to this guy than any other Gyro because you’re always dropping him right on the enemy. Lots of people are excited for this guy. If I’m understanding right he does a whirl finisher every 1/2 second? If so then I can see how he’s worth using, because it sure as heck isn’t for the damage… that’s laughable! I’m not even sure why the damage is there at that amount, maybe it can proc our on hit effects? Toolbelt damage looks really bad and cooldown a bit long, these are things I want to try before suggesting anything though.

Purge Gyro Okay so ITTDDILT… this one had me the most excited and honestly you delivered with the condition removal part of it (I was worried for something like 1 removed every 20s). But that’s all it does you say? Exactly! This is not worthy of standing on its own. I don’t really want to see it attached to the Medic Gyro though because then we just have another Healing Turret situation. If the heal with purge gyro capability out healed and out cleansed the turret, everyone uses it. If not, no one uses it. Let’s not go down that road, let’s make this skill stand on its own. I would rather see this little guy buffed. I’m not sure how to be honest. How about a 3s Resistance boon on the Engi if there are no valid targets with conditions when the pulse comes? Still would be underwhelming though. Retaliation? Super Speed!? I don’t know but this guy really needs something. Maybe he feeds you an elixir to cure those conditions, so you can get all the benefits of those traits? Meh. I don’t know this is a tough one. Toolbelt? Meh. It’s alright I guess, I’m not that excited about it.

Sneak Gyro. Alright so yeah you can see the Sneak Gyro when it stealths us. I want to play with it to provide more accurate feedback. It’s a neat idea. I can see it being really balanced because of this, or just not worth using. I’m thinking the place where I’m going to land is that the gyro should not aggro NPCs. I get the whole visible cloak thing for counterplay, and I get we have to stay close for stealth, but I’m not sure I’m going to like getting into combat when I try to run by stuff. The Thief can already SR + blast through any dungeon mobs that people want to skip so it’s not like we’re breaking things there. The toolbelt rocks, good job there.

Thanks Irenio! By and large you’ve delivered on this elite spec. Let’s whip these Gyros into shape so we don’t have to say “yeah but…. the gyros”. Scrapper hammer is darn near perfect and the traits are really fun looking. Can’t wait to play BWE3 and for you to start interacting with us here!

Adamantium.3682:

I have one thing that I think needs to change here, and it’s a cooldown reduction to the hammer trait. That’s not just because there’s a hammer trait anyways, or that most weapons have them. It’s because we can’t weapon swap and kits are already so invasive to every Engineer build that if we’re going into Scrapper and choosing the GM trait just for the hammer, it should make us much less reliant on kits by letting us use hammer skills more often. That’s my $.02 on the matter. I’ve seen a lot of suggestions to add a cooldown here, but I think there’s a really good reason for it not just “well it’s the hammer trait”. Let us use the hammer and not be forced back into kits.

Again, +1 to this suggestion. Please add 20% cool down reduction for hammer skills to this trait. It will bring it in line with Adaptive Armor.

The master traits are great. All useful in their own way which gives the engineer even more versatility and options.

I’m right with Adamantium. Although I’d add that what I think what the purge gyro really needs is a stun break. I believe that would really make it a tempting skill to slot.

“Search your feelings. You know it to be true.” Lol so right.

Adamantium.3682:

I’m going to provide a little pre BWE3 feedback since we won’t have any environment to test out changes before HOT launches.

Hammer:
Awesome! Great job Irenio, seriously. The hammer looks fun and worth using. For an Engineer having a weapon that doesn’t take a back seat to our utilities is a new concept. I hope that I am not wrong, but I see myself using hammer a lot and not just for the big skills before I switch back to a kit like we all do with rifle/pistols. Kudos.

Traits:
I think these look good overall. There are some meaningful choices to be made, and they really seem to change how your build works depending on which way you go. There are 3 pretty distinct and consistent themes in the traits that you can choose, stability, super speed, or tank. I would have prefered to see something a little more varied than stability and tank, something that you could choose for more damage maybe. Before I get my hands on it to play that’s a minor complaint because I do think the trait line is set up well.

Specific thoughts on some traits:
Minors are okay but I am strongly against the 30s cooldown on the function gyro right now. It’s the change to the profession mechanic (and by far the most niche of all the elite specs IMO) and if we have to revive 2 allies we can only use it on one of them? I really would like to see this play in BWE3 with no cooldown and see how that feels. I believe Decisive Renown should be an Adept or merged with the first minor trait, it is a very niche trait. I am currently buying into the whole functional gyro thing right now (even though we haven’t seen it… -.-) but additional effects on revives should be a choice, I don’t want that to take up a slot for something else that should be baseline instead. Like… Shocking Speed. Maybe just swap the two. OH! Super Speed duration should totally be a minor. Totally. 33% or something. This is the solution Irenio. Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

Adepts are great, I like the choice here and I like that you’re starting on the path of some consistently themed choices. Aside from the swap between Decisive Renown and Shocking Speed I have no issues with the Adepts.

Masters look great as well Rapid Regeneration and Mass Momentum are some serious competitors. Expert Examination would be great for a tank.

Grandmasters that are meaningful! Big kudos for that Irenio, I feel that some of the elite specs have really dropped the ball on this one but not the Scrapper. I have one thing that I think needs to change here, and it’s a cooldown reduction to the hammer trait. That’s not just because there’s a hammer trait anyways, or that most weapons have them. It’s because we can’t weapon swap and kits are already so invasive to every Engineer build that if we’re going into Scrapper and choosing the GM trait just for the hammer, it should make us much less reliant on kits by letting us use hammer skills more often. That’s my $.02 on the matter. I’ve seen a lot of suggestions to add a cooldown here, but I think there’s a really good reason for it not just “well it’s the hammer trait”. Let us use the hammer and not be forced back into kits.

Gyros:
Okay Irenio I’ve given you a lot of props so far and I’m going to continue to be honest… I’m willing to give the Gyros a fair try in BWE3 but I am really skeptical on the health bar. I feel that nothing has been learned from turrets which is very disappointing. You said in the POI they had large health pools, but judging from the numbers they were taking and how far their health was going down that’s just not true. Start with doubling the health pools, but even then they’re toast in WvW or boss level PvE. Ideally they would be invulnerable and we could test how that looks, and I really would like to try that direction, but with only one BWE to test in I’m not sure you want to do something that drastic. As the next best thing I think they should receive all control effects and conditions but be immune to direct damage, basically Endure Pain. Sure in PvP that’s an advantage to condi users, but it’s not spike damage which is the real issue with turrets and it looks like it will be with these as well. With this approach instead enemies can still CC them, blind them, slow them, even kill them with the damaging conditions, but they won’t be smashed to bits in 1 second from Hundred Blades or something like that. This proposed change may not even need an increase to their health pool depending on how it tested in BWE3. Also recharge should start on skill use! We’re really right back into turret territory with these effective 30-50s cooldowns. Not cool man, not cool.

Medic Gyro. There’s already a ton of feedback about how this skill just isn’t going to work. A utility that pulses a heal every 3 seconds would be great. A heal skill that pulses every 3s is terrible. Up the initial heal to at least 4k, up the pulse to 1 second intervals. Lower pulse to ~500 if necessary. Maybe just turn it into a Troll Unguent like effect in AOE, stronger for us though of course since it’s our actual heal skill. Maybe add retaliation. I like the toolbelt, good job there.

Bulwark Gyro. Honestly provided gyros don’t die instantly to direct damage like turrets this one looks like the best of the bunch. Love the effect, love the toolbelt. From the POI we’re guessing about 12-15k health? That’s not even close to enough even if they could be made immune to direct damage. Let’s say 15k, using it in a party where everyone is taking damage means each player has 3k damage reduced before this thing dies. That doesn’t seem very meaningful to me. That’s a crit of an auto attack.

Blast Gyro. Maybe the worst one. Maybe. We guess that you had Rabid gear in the POI if so I’m willing to at least see the damage this guy does, but it seems incredibly underwhelming. The toolbelt seems boring. I would like this to be our source of “long” Super Speed (I know due to the nature of the effect it can’t be like Swiftness). 3s is what we’re getting from blast and leap finishers through traits plus all the cool stuff those blasts and leaps do. If we have this as a 30s cooldown that only works in bomb radius for our allies with no other effects, I want to see at least 5s here.

Shredder Gyro I will again have to go with the caveat of “If This Thing Doesn’t Die Immediately Like Turrets”… (ITTDDILT might become my new short hand). Even more applicable to this guy than any other Gyro because you’re always dropping him right on the enemy. Lots of people are excited for this guy. If I’m understanding right he does a whirl finisher every 1/2 second? If so then I can see how he’s worth using, because it sure as heck isn’t for the damage… that’s laughable! I’m not even sure why the damage is there at that amount, maybe it can proc our on hit effects? Toolbelt damage looks really bad and cooldown a bit long, these are things I want to try before suggesting anything though.

Purge Gyro Okay so ITTDDILT… this one had me the most excited and honestly you delivered with the condition removal part of it (I was worried for something like 1 removed every 20s). But that’s all it does you say? Exactly! This is not worthy of standing on its own. I don’t really want to see it attached to the Medic Gyro though because then we just have another Healing Turret situation. If the heal with purge gyro capability out healed and out cleansed the turret, everyone uses it. If not, no one uses it. Let’s not go down that road, let’s make this skill stand on its own. I would rather see this little guy buffed. I’m not sure how to be honest. How about a 3s Resistance boon on the Engi if there are no valid targets with conditions when the pulse comes? Still would be underwhelming though. Retaliation? Super Speed!? I don’t know but this guy really needs something. Maybe he feeds you an elixir to cure those conditions, so you can get all the benefits of those traits? Meh. I don’t know this is a tough one. Toolbelt? Meh. It’s alright I guess, I’m not that excited about it.

Sneak Gyro. Alright so yeah you can see the Sneak Gyro when it stealths us. I want to play with it to provide more accurate feedback. It’s a neat idea. I can see it being really balanced because of this, or just not worth using. I’m thinking the place where I’m going to land is that the gyro should not aggro NPCs. I get the whole visible cloak thing for counterplay, and I get we have to stay close for stealth, but I’m not sure I’m going to like getting into combat when I try to run by stuff. The Thief can already SR + blast through any dungeon mobs that people want to skip so it’s not like we’re breaking things there. The toolbelt rocks, good job there.

Thanks Irenio! By and large you’ve delivered on this elite spec. Let’s whip these Gyros into shape so we don’t have to say “yeah but…. the gyros”. Scrapper hammer is darn near perfect and the traits are really fun looking. Can’t wait to play BWE3 and for you to start interacting with us here!

I initially felt the same about the Medic Gyro, but my impression now, after having more time to think about it, is that the functionality might not be too bad. It’s just the numbers that need to be changed. I would like to see it turn into a sustained heal mechanism (e.g. keep the initial heal where it is but maybe double the pulse heal). This sounds sort of extreme (1.6k party ally healing every 3 sec?), but it’s cooldown is long, doesn’t start until it’s destroyed, and it rewards you for keeping it alive for a long time (the opposite functionality of healing turret). And if it’s destroyed early, you get very little out of it. So the reward would be proportional to the risk.

I do agree with you regarding Purge Gyro. Engi’s were already not taking Elixir C because it wasn’t worth the utility slot, so I don’t think an Elixir C in gyro form is going to be very popular either. The toolbelt poison field is probably okay, but not enough to warrant spending a utility slot on a Purge Bot when we could slot a kit or a stunbreak.

Goosekilla.2796:

I’m right with Adamantium. Although I’d add that what I think what the purge gyro really needs is a stun break. I believe that would really make it a tempting skill to slot.

“Search your feelings. You know it to be true.” Lol so right.

Good call with the stun break, I said the same over in the Gyro thread. I think that’s the perfect thing to add to Purge Gyro that may help make it more of a competitive choice. Make it break only the first CC you (the Scrapper) receive while it’s active. Easily identified counterplay as well, when you see it you know your next CC won’t work.

iKeostuKen.2738:

I actually feel as though the 2 minors are in a good place. I see potential in the function gyro in all forms of play. It is basically a killer or a reviver which ontop of being a ranged revive, gives boon benefits which inturn can heal you if you take Rapid regneration. Which is giving you more survivability or giving whoever you revived the option to retreat at super speed which matters if the attacker is using melee.

Yeah, which is great inPvP and WvW, but PvE it’ll see use maybe once or twice every ,what 15 minutes or so unless your reviving npcs, in which case the battle is already over and so the buffs are useless.

Don’t forget the gyro is only usable once every 30 seconds, which means you can revive one person, then for 22-26 seconds (depending on traits and boon duration, loose calculation, I’m not doing precise numbers at this time of morning) the minor does precisely nothing unless you stop fighting to continue rez on your own. If you’ve got time to do that, then the buff is probably worthless anyway.

Then there’s all the time that you’re not needing to res, in PvE you’re very unlikely to be using finishers, so the amount of time that the buffs are used is extremely limited. For the majority of your time in game, the second minor does precisely nothing.

Chaba.5410:

Basaltface.2786:

….well for a melee setup the gyros are pretty darn…weird. Is like you would go into battle with a sledgehammer and ming vases.

This quote is the best way I’ve seen so far to describe the contradiction of Scrapper being a melee playstyle!

Pretty much this, Basaltface hit the proverbial nail.

I think the development of the Engineer/Scrapper is summed up best by Irenio himself:

“when you’re working with a bunch of junk, you can make some pretty cool stuff”

The trait lines have synergy and a common theme/purpose and true to one of the original Engineer strengths (combo field king) it looks interesting to play and not a poorly thought out hodge podge of misc. stuff that the engineer was guilty of originally.

The fact that the trait line synergizes with a kit (flame thrower), but isn’t built around kits (technically built with hammer/ gyro’s in mind) is a welcome change…
Addressing the class weaknesses (conditions, easily focused down) has a lot potential (I would expect as a melee class that the engy would have to have his survive factor beefed up and it looks like they’ve done that)

One of the things about the engineer that always bugged me was the overemphasis on having to context switch to stay alive that some classes had completely passively…. (i.e want a decent heal?… better stop what you’re doing, stand still, drop a turret, overcharge a turret, blast the turret while that healing signet warrior is wailing away on you….. or stay put inside that shield field while that zerg wails away on you… that gives you an extra 3 seconds to contemplate the life choices that let you end up in this miserable predicament before you die….)

I like that gyro’s attempt to reduce the context switch load of the class in areas of control/survivability but allow for some cool multitasking. For example the function gyro allows you to multi task ressing/stomping while you can either keep doing what you’re doing or work on another target, you get rewarded for splitting that focus a little bit, as opposed to having to split all your energy just to get a stomp off.

Healing needs a little work, I like the concept of a passive gyro healer, but I’m not sure it’s going to be enough.

The hammer implementation looks awesome with the mixture of offense/defense to the weapon, I’d be interested to see how it plays out in PVP however since it looks like there’s a lot of powercreep in the other classes that might leave the implementation weak/flat.