Guild Wars 2

Hello, Engineer community.

The first and foremost thing I would like to say in response to the patch of February 26th is to not despair, or lament over what you perceive as the loss of kit refinement.

While at the current time, I do not understand the direction that Arenanet has envisioned for the kit refinement trait – I’ll explain why.

“Kit Refinement: This trait now has an internal cooldown of 10 seconds globally for Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Grenade Kit, and Tool Kit.”

In the current live build, only Elixir Gun and Flamethrower kits induce the documented 10 second global. Every kit refinement proc respects ie, won’t activate, when the cooldown is induced, even Medkit.

Now what this means for Engineers is that a price is being paid for using any other kits along with FT or EG. Why?

Rationalization #1: This change could be put in place to bring multi-kit builds that include the FT and EG in line after the buffs.

Rationalization #2: This change could be put in place to limit the condi cleansing potential of using EG and FT together (both kit refinements cure 1 condition).

Rationalization #3: This change could be put in place to provide an incentive to take only ONE kit (if those kits were EG or FT.)

Rationalization #4: This change is totally unintended! Changes to come to either the live build, or a revision of the patch notes.

I feel the Engineer community as a whole would very much interested in some insight to the direction this trait is taking, and when corrections to either the documentation or the live build will happen, if at all. Developer clarification would be greatly appreciated.

-Five Gauge Chaith

what the f…? Sry i rather continue playing my alts.
I dont care why they overnerfed this class so much in every patch but this time theyve gone to far. They complete took away any reliable way to remove conditions.
I used FT/E-Gun in my build and this patch literally destroyed it. Tried it today, its unplayable now.

Well, the kit refinement buff was expected and it was also expected that the patch would be bugged. A lot of engineer stuff has been bugged since day #1, reported here or using the inbuilt tool. Yet this “big” update didn’t fix most of those issues. What was unexpected the overpowered builds or traits of some other professions were not addressed at all. And what was expected: no explanations or reasoning.

Reroll as a thief, mesmer, guardian or elementalist. That is what the Anet skill “balancers” are playing!

there will be another path in 1h where the correct nerf is probably going to take place

so yea, multi tool kits are not either gonna be random or the player is gonna have to change their play style and limit the number of kits or numbers of times that they switch in order to get the buffs, which tbh asides from GK not overpower by a long kitten, they were just reliable, i was nice to know you could have a short snare with tool kit or that you could clean a condition with EG or FT

Chaith.8256:

Hello, Engineer community.

The first and foremost thing I would like to say in response to the patch of February 26th is to not despair, or lament over what you perceive as the loss of kit refinement.

While at the current time, I do not understand the direction that Arenanet has envisioned for the kit refinement trait – I’ll explain why.

“Kit Refinement: This trait now has an internal cooldown of 10 seconds globally for Flamethrower, Elixir Gun, Grenade Kit, and Tool Kit.”

In the current live build, only Elixir Gun and Flamethrower kits induce the documented 10 second global. Every kit refinement proc respects ie, won’t activate, when the cooldown is induced, even Medkit.

Now what this means for Engineers is that a price is being paid for using any other kits along with FT or EG. Why?

Rationalization #1: This change could be put in place to bring multi-kit builds that include the FT and EG in line after the buffs.

Rationalization #2: This change could be put in place to limit the condi cleansing potential of using EG and FT together (both kit refinements cure 1 condition).

Rationalization #3: This change could be put in place to provide an incentive to take only ONE kit (if those kits were EG or FT.)

Rationalization #4: This change is totally unintended! Changes to come to either the live build, or a revision of the patch notes.

I feel the Engineer community as a whole would very much interested in some insight to the direction this trait is taking, and when corrections to either the documentation or the live build will happen, if at all. Developer clarification would be greatly appreciated.

-Five Gauge Chaith

Thanks for as always being accurate and levelheaded. I wish I had read this full explanation before piecing together the actual changes from information on multiple other threads.

It’s good to know that dropping a (usually) useless box of nails won’t hinder my ability to cleanse a condition, which was the main thing I was concerned about. To my knowledge, the only refinement effects anyone actually wants are condition cleanse and grenade barrage. Since those are rarely in the same build, effectiveness shouldn’t change too much.

It’s too bad the elixir gun/flamethrower build took a hit, though. I didn’t personally use it much but it was fun to have near complete, instant control over conditions. I suppose with the decent buffs to each individual kit it’s possible Anet decided to preemptively nerf the combination.

you’re completely right and love the post

the traits is currently broken so as long as you avoid FT or EG you’re good, it was most likely broken intentionally so they could nerf in the future date and claim it as a bug fix, right now all they want to encourage people to stay longer in kits or make builds around them and discourage kit swamping, they are trying to kill our creativity but lets not let them

i really dislike that they spend hours writing code to break one of our best and most reliable traits, instead of fixing current bugs or finding ways to make turrets, gadgets more appealing to the player

To be honest; I like how it works now.

It is a Condition Removal fix. (EG / FT being used to clear conditions)

if it stays like this I can live with the change. My problem is I sometimes switch to Grenade kit to start doing damage, and don’t want that to impact my ability to use EG for the condition removal + heals. Now; I just need to pay attention to cooldowns if I am using it for dps (grenade kit AFTER eg).

Honestly; I wasn’t really a 100nades’er even though I run a build very similar to it, and just didn’t want to lose the on demand nature of the EG condition removal.

But; its a bug. Just wait. The patch notes didn’t say: “Added a global cooldown triggered by some kits, that effects all kits”, it said: “Added a global cooldown for kits”. Until we get clarification, its a bug, and they are going to nerf it properly next patch. (probably the one after since they are having so much trouble with this patch re guild missions).

The reason they did it was because kids cried about people instantly swapping to toolkip, magneting them into a 100nades burst. Now it will be more difficult and you will have to wait 10 secs after going into tool kit to use 100nades build.

Dante Dragonhand.2538:

The reason they did it was because kids cried about people instantly swapping to toolkip, magneting them into a 100nades burst. Now it will be more difficult and you will have to wait 10 secs after going into tool kit to use 100nades build.

From what I understand since toolkit and grenade barrage global cd are bugged ATM you can still do hundred nades

Its not as bad as it looks. This change affect only 4 kits not all. Imo now you just must choose first kit swap more wisely instead mindlesly slide on kit buttons. Its simply again increase engi learning curve witch is good because I dont want see every 2 button noob play engi:-)

IMHO it’s not a huge nerf. It mainly affects builds that try to get all their procs at the same time. One condition removal less isn’t a big deal either between switching to EG, casting Super Elixir, comboing off of it, and using other skills such as exploding our healing turret (remove all conditions). If you’re not trying to proc everything at the same time, it’s mostly more annoying now but not less powerful. Yes, that’s not a good thing, but also not really cause for despair.

I still hate how this makes multi kit builds less useful. Engineers were in a good spot in that regard before, being able to choose how many kits, elixirs or gadgets to use, and this change removes some of that flexibility. Not as bad as elementalists where 30 Arcana is pretty much mandatory, but I’d hate to see engineers go down that route. (Also, hidden cooldowns are just bad usability, we didn’t really need the least played class to be even less transparent…)

Everything else in this update was a buff, so I’m definitely not despairing. I have multiple 80s and I liked my engineer before. Although I have to admit that some of that is because I like the idea of it, not so much the implementation, but if it was impossible to play as an engineer I wouldn’t play that character in the first place…

Rozbuska.5263:

Its not as bad as it looks. This change affect only 4 kits not all. Imo now you just must choose first kit swap more wisely instead mindlesly slide on kit buttons. Its simply again increase engi learning curve witch is good because I dont want see every 2 button noob play engi:-)

I’m sorry, but the only “noobs” are those who are so bad they don’t realize how this affects every multi kit build. In PvP I have no choice much of the time when I have to use a kit, for instance if I get immobilized and am about to get bursted, then I need to combat that, so if I have toolkit I swap to tool kit and use the gear shield, or if I have FT I swap to FT and use teh knockback or blind, etc.

If you are playnig a multi kit engi build and not constantly swapping kits, you are doing it wrong.

Rozbuska.5263:

Its not as bad as it looks. This change affect only 4 kits not all. Imo now you just must choose first kit swap more wisely instead mindlesly slide on kit buttons. Its simply again increase engi learning curve witch is good because I dont want see every 2 button noob play engi:-)

I just found out that we have kinda only one viable anti condition thing now, elixir. Before kit refiniment nerf it was also this trait, flamethrower and elixir gun gave us cool condition removal, now? I have problem with that. So my build is basicaly dead against heavy conditions again. No wonder everyone tends to spam conditions in this game, its like take skill on it or you die. I tried my ranger on conditions, amazing stuff.

EDIT: I mean, it probably still could work, just with more focus on fight, more focus on precise use of skills etc. I don’t think I have seen anything like that on other classes. With my mesmer I had to focus, but not crazy like this.

damny.9342:

IMHO it’s not a huge nerf. It mainly affects builds that try to get all their procs at the same time. One condition removal less isn’t a big deal either between switching to EG, casting Super Elixir, comboing off of it, and using other skills such as exploding our healing turret (remove all conditions). If you’re not trying to proc everything at the same time, it’s mostly more annoying now but not less powerful. Yes, that’s not a good thing, but also not really cause for despair.

Wrong, it affects every single build with multiple kits (at least when they get round to properly implementing it. If you PvP much of the time you have no choice when to switch to kits because you need them for defensive purposes (gear shield, FT knockback/blind, smoke bomb, etc).

In PvP 10 secs is a very long time, people regularly switch between multiple kits in that time, the change is beyond moronic, it is as simple as that.

The only redeeming feature is they appear to have Frank Spencer as their lead programmer so as per usual they have failed to implement it properly. (no you will probably not have a clue who this or the reference unless you are British and probably of a certain age)

Sylosi.6503:

I’m sorry, but the only “noobs” are those who are so bad they don’t realize how this affects every multi kit build. In PvP I have no choice much of the time when I have to use a kit, for instance if I get immobilized and am about to get bursted, then I need to combat that, so if I have toolkit I swap to tool kit and use the gear shield, or if I have FT I swap to FT and use teh knockback or blind, etc.

Or you just hit the weapon swap key and use the block on your shield. Ohh, you mean you wanted to block on demand without a shield and no other drawbacks?

damny.9342:

Sylosi.6503:

I’m sorry, but the only “noobs” are those who are so bad they don’t realize how this affects every multi kit build. In PvP I have no choice much of the time when I have to use a kit, for instance if I get immobilized and am about to get bursted, then I need to combat that, so if I have toolkit I swap to tool kit and use the gear shield, or if I have FT I swap to FT and use teh knockback or blind, etc.

Or you just hit the weapon swap key and use the block on your shield. Ohh, you mean you wanted to block on demand without a shield and no other drawbacks?

What are you on about? There is no block on demand, there is a cooldown (20 secs) on gearshield, just like most other skills in the game.

The kit refinement change (when they implement it correctly) affects every single multi kit build (if you use KR), unless you are a “noob” as the guy I quoted so nicely put it, that stands there spamming the same kit and takes longer than 10 secs to switch between kits.

Rozbuska.5263:

Its simply again increase engi learning curve witch is good because I dont want see every 2 button noob play engi:-)

Just say it. THIEVES.

I respect the OP a lot, but I don’t read the rationalisation that I think is the real one for this change. Maybe I’m wrong of course.

Basically they did this, if my view is correct:

to nerf a high burst build 100nades, they nerfed kit refinement for all other engineer builds as well.

I used 3 or 4 kits mostly.
Kit refinement was a core trait to that gameplay.
Now I will ‘waste’ the kit refinement proc on stuff I don’t need, while not being able to rely on the procs I actually need on the spot.

To tone down 100nades, they nerfed a LOT of other engineer builds with it.

Kit refinement was not overpowered because of the cripple, or not even because of the condition removal.
It was only an issue in the 100nades build.

And now the funny part: if the 100 nades build doesn’t use a tool kit or med kit… they won’t even notice the shared cooldown!
They will mostly miss the magnet pull if they drop Tool kit of course, but if they replace tool kit with a deployable net turet for example, it ‘could’ work too.
100nades build can probably work around this nerf, while the multi-kit builds can not.

Kit refinement was the most VERSATILE trait engineers had.
Guess we’re not supposed to be versatile with kits after all.
Not with turrets either, or gadgets.
Just a little with elixirs…

It has been said in a differnt thread, but, first they buff two kits that have a good synergy via traits and then they punish using it by adjusting Kit Refinement.
I am beginning to wonder if ANet have this unwritten rule somewhere that they are not allowed to buff the engineer. If they are about to buff it, they have to think hard how to diminish this buff again in the same patch.
Oh wait, we are the Jesters of Versatility and, in contrast to the Elementalist, we have to pay the price for our versatility.
Basically: master a hard to play class>as a reward you get punished by lower damage output

Seriously though: Kit Refinement effects already had a recharge time. To nerf 100nades they should have used a different means. Instead they disable the effectiveness of KR across the board, most of all disabling the good synergy betwen FT an EG (which they would like to synergise according to traits and the recent buffs).
As much as I like to put this on the 100nade (ab-)users, it was ANets call, and they went on with it in a very unimaginitive way to be honest.

They can utterly destroy the 100nades build wtih a simple little change, that doesn’t involve any change to any trait at all.
While still keeping it as effective as aoe as ever…

Don’t let the 8 grenades from barrage overlap when standing in a character model.

I sincerely believe they nerfed kit refinement because of 100nades.
Ironically they left it untouched because Tool kit doesn’t proc the internal cooldown apparantly. But I assume that’s a bug.

I don’t want 100nades to be nerfed, even though I don’t use it.
But if the devs think it is too strong, there were more logical ways to adress it, without touching on other builds, or even reducing aoe.
It would only reduce the usage of aoe versus a single target. Which is something the dev’s stated they want to do.

I can not see a single other use of kit refinement that was percievable as too strong.
The condition removal? Come on, we’re talking a multi kit build here with no elixirs or anything.
The swapping and KR procs when stunned? Again we’re talking about kits with no inherent stun breaker.
The noisy bomb on med kit? Seriously: what the heck was so strong about kit refinement aside double grenade barrage on 100nades???

Add to that the Kit Refinement effects already had a recharge time of 10-20 seconds, so it is not like you had op condition removal.
Basically they levered out multi-kit usage for me, cause of the lack of reliable condition removal now.

Kimbald.2697:

I sincerely believe they nerfed kit refinement because of 100nades.

Why? In sPvP which is where is is mainly used, it is not the highest burst, is not the hardest burst to avoid / counter and is not the easiest burst to deliver.

And as inept as the balancing & bug fixing has been, it would not be difficult to just target 100nades if that was the intent.

Sylosi.6503:

Kimbald.2697:

I sincerely believe they nerfed kit refinement because of 100nades.

Why? In sPvP which is where is is mainly used, it is not the highest burst, is not the hardest burst to avoid / counter and is not the easiest burst to deliver.

And as inept as the balancing & bug fixing has been, it would not be difficult to just target 100nades if that was the intent.

I agree with you on both points, 100%
Just stating why I think they did it. Not why they ‘should’ do it.

Nerfing 100nades is easy as pie: just don’t let all 8 grenades overlap in a single central spot… that completely would ruin the burst it has, without touching upon anything else, not even it’s aoe potential.
Not a good thing, don’t get me wrong. But it would be a simple soltution without touchng anything else… like kit refinement.

Kontrolle.3514:

what the f…? Sry i rather continue playing my alts.
I dont care why they overnerfed this class so much in every patch but this time theyve gone to far. They complete took away any reliable way to remove conditions.
I used FT/E-Gun in my build and this patch literally destroyed it. Tried it today, its unplayable now.

Err, what? Super Elixir has a 10-second duration. It has an untraited 20-second cooldown, the same as the Kit Refinement version.

1. Swap to the Elixir Gun for Super Elixir (Kit Refinement Proc)—10 second duration
2. Swap back to the Flamethrower
3. Swap to the Elixir Gun for Super Elixir (#5 skill)—10 second duration
4. Swap back to the Flamethrower

Rinse and repeat. 100% upkeep of Super Elixir’s Light field. If you time it properly it’s just as effective as it always was.

Let me reiterate: Super Elixirs viability in 100% upkeep has been left literally unaffected, and actually got buffed to be even stronger.

Try it yourself.

Pannonica.5378:

I am beginning to wonder if ANet have this unwritten rule somewhere that they are not allowed to buff the engineer.

Except the Flamethrower got a flat 10% damage increase to burning targets and can now detonate Flame Blast as a PBAoE?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Kontrolle.3514:

what the f…? Sry i rather continue playing my alts.
I dont care why they overnerfed this class so much in every patch but this time theyve gone to far. They complete took away any reliable way to remove conditions.
I used FT/E-Gun in my build and this patch literally destroyed it. Tried it today, its unplayable now.

Err, what? Super Elixir has a 10-second duration. It has an untraited 20-second cooldown, the same as the Kit Refinement version.

1. Swap to the Elixir Gun for Super Elixir (Kit Refinement Proc)—10 second duration
2. Swap back to the Flamethrower
3. Swap to the Elixir Gun for Super Elixir (#5 skill)—10 second duration
4. Swap back to the Flamethrower

Rinse and repeat. 100% upkeep of Super Elixir’s Light field. If you time it properly it’s just as effective as it always was.

Let me reiterate: Super Elixirs viability in 100% upkeep has been left literally unaffected, and actually got buffed to be even stronger.

Try it yourself.

Pannonica.5378:

I am beginning to wonder if ANet have this unwritten rule somewhere that they are not allowed to buff the engineer.

Except the Flamethrower got a flat 10% damage increase to burning targets and can now detonate Flame Blast as a PBAoE?

Let me quote myself in context:

Pannonica.5378:

I am beginning to wonder if ANet have this unwritten rule somewhere that they are not allowed to buff the engineer. If they are about to buff it, they have to think hard how to diminish this buff again in the same patch.

Regarding the Super Elixir portion of you post:

If you throw in an odd kit equip in there (multi kit builds, situations where you have to take out another kit again after using your main weapon), you completely mess up KR’s Super Elixirs proc, because that Super Elixir proc has now been occupied by another kit’s proc. Before the patch you would have the accordings kit’s recharge time on each kit seperately. Now we effectively have a general cooldown on kit’s KR proc on top of the individual KR’s effect recharge rate.

This is of course a non issue in single kit builds, because no other kit’s KR proc can occupy another kit’s proc. But it gets more messy the more kits you use. Hence my deduction that they don’t want us to use KR with a multi kit build.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Except the Flamethrower got a flat 10% damage increase to burning targets and can now detonate Flame Blast as a PBAoE?

A 10% increase of damage to burning targets isn’t strictly a ‘flat’ increase, since it is highly situational.
If the burn would start on the first hit of the FT then this buff would be flat, but like it is implemented now, it is a marginal damage increase at beast.

Flame Blast manual detonation is nice and was long overdue, but isn’t worth sacrificing one tool slot for. For me personally this changes hardly anything though, since I usually was able to hit enemies with Flame Blast’s end detonation, because I would Air Blast them back, dodge back and fire Flame Blast.
Using this technique would make even more sense now that Air Blast refreshes burning to 2 seconds, so that detonating Flame Blast manually would make less sense after the patch, which negates the ‘buff’ to Flame Blast.

But for Air Blast to refresh burning on enemies to 2 seconds, they must be burning first and the burning from Flame Jet is too short basically.

The whole change looks like a buff, but it is clunky in reality at best.

Except what it used to be:

1. Swap to Super Elixir (KR Proc) Remove 1 condition
2. Swap to Flamethrower. Remove another condition.
3. Wait 10 seconds. Super Elixir(EG5) Remove another.
4. Swap back to Flamethrower. Remove Another condition.

That’s 10 seconds to remove 4 conditions, with only the last one having any real cooldown.

The version you are describing removes 3, after 10 seconds.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Kontrolle.3514:

what the f…? Sry i rather continue playing my alts.
I dont care why they overnerfed this class so much in every patch but this time theyve gone to far. They complete took away any reliable way to remove conditions.
I used FT/E-Gun in my build and this patch literally destroyed it. Tried it today, its unplayable now.

Err, what? Super Elixir has a 10-second duration. It has an untraited 20-second cooldown, the same as the Kit Refinement version.

1. Swap to the Elixir Gun for Super Elixir (Kit Refinement Proc)—10 second duration
2. Swap back to the Flamethrower
3. Swap to the Elixir Gun for Super Elixir (#5 skill)—10 second duration
4. Swap back to the Flamethrower

Rinse and repeat. 100% upkeep of Super Elixir’s Light field. If you time it properly it’s just as effective as it always was.

Let me reiterate: Super Elixirs viability in 100% upkeep has been left literally unaffected, and actually got buffed to be even stronger.

Try it yourself.

Pannonica.5378:

I am beginning to wonder if ANet have this unwritten rule somewhere that they are not allowed to buff the engineer.

Except the Flamethrower got a flat 10% damage increase to burning targets and can now detonate Flame Blast as a PBAoE?