Guild Wars 2

Most of the engi group heals available are regeneration boons. For instance, the elixir gun and healing turret toolbelt skills, and the healing turret deployment skill, and healing elixir thrown effect. Aside from the medpack heals, which are quite nice but also exceedingly difficult to use effectively in most situtations(especially pvp), the only direct heals I can think of are the one-minute healing turret heal and the elixir gun 5, both of which are pretty small compared to guardian heals or even warrior shouts. As a comparison, between the healing turret and the super elixir from the elixir gun, it’s something like 2500 worth of base burst healing every minute(Although it’s closer to 5500 if you consider the super elixir’s ground heal, which, like medpacks, almost never sees a fraction of it’s full heal number), while traited warrior shouts are closer to 3300 base burst healing every 20 seconds, which is superior to engi heals even if your allies are somehow able to stand still in your ground heals and turret radius.. Those shouts also grant fury, might, and vulnerability while, if specced and runed for it, also offer comparable condition removal to what the engineer has in a much easier-to-deploy format. The same goes for the guardian.

Given that regeneration is a very slow heal, and when considered in combination with the engi’s overall lack of buffing skills, it leads to the engi being extremely subpar in the support role compared to an elementalist or warrior or especially a guardian. It’s cool that I can throw out a minute’s worth of aoe regen in a short period of time, but the majority of that is going to waste when both pve and pvp in this game are very spiky.

While I think it’s okay for the engi to not be the best support class, it seems counter-intuitive to be so terrible at it when we have so many different support abilities available.

What do you guys think? Are engineer support options sub-par? Do we even need better support abilities? Most engis I’ve seen are either bombs or condition elixir spec’d.

if we do it right we can dish out 6, area regens (healing turrent toolbelt, healing turret, elexir gun autospell, and elixir gun #5 skill, elexir gun toolbelt, and healing bombs) at once and those heal allot if you have enough healing power. while they dont all seem to stack, some of them do.
i was able to keep up plenty of people in WvW while beeing constantly attacked by AOE damage.

honestly, area healing rocks with the engie.

One-Minute healing turret heal? WHAT? You heal with the turret when you put it down, if you pick it right back up when it applies the regen boon to you it goes on CD for FOURTEEN seconds and is ready to repeat again. Or you can wait until it puts up mist field and explode it for a heal when you place it, Regen boon, and a heal when it explodes. Also, if you have shield offhand you can use the Regen boon giving toolbelt from the turret and your 4 skill for more healing. All off of the Turret alone, add the Elixir Gun that I use and the trait to make it drop the healing field on equip and I do pretty good as a support, granted it takes more work than a Warrior or Guardian, but I do well. The Regen taking longer to heal is a good and bad thing, good in that it sustains everyone over a longer fight making everyone tankier overall and this means that fewer direct heals are required, bad because Regen doesn’t work so well at bringing someone’s HP back up after it’s been knocked down really hard. Moral of the story, apply Regen early and save actual heals for later. You have to play engineer very tactically no matter what you’re trying to do with it, that includes support. You are not a burst healer, though you have a few bursts at your disposal, you are a preventative healer. Your job is to keep up the regens so that less healing is required and then burst selectively. Hope this helps. Have a nice night!

consider yourself the druid, agent, fixer,<insert random HoT healing class from different games here> of GW2. ^^
poor instaheal, great HoT heal.

Except its not Achmed, its not. Regeneration is a terrible boon, and having 5000 regeneration buffs means nothing since it stacks in duration, not in intensity.

There are other classes that don’t have as much regeneration, that do a much better job at support, and their regeneration is just as good as ours. A ranger can simply lay down his healing spring heal, for AoE regeneration, that’s it. One simple, effective source.

I honestly think the boon should be redesigned to stack in intensity, because it ticks for such low amounts, and in the end, what ends up happening is huge durations, that do nothing for you.

I agree about making it stack in intensity. Bleeding stacks in intensity and can cause you to take over 3000 dps. Regen can make you heal for… what, 150hps? With that, you can almost recover from a single 8k warrior axe burst in, what, a minute? Big whoop.

Oh, and the turret aoe heal is absolutely on a one minute cooldown. The regen is on a 20 second cooldown, but I made it very explicit I was talking about instant heals. Reading comprehension is awesome!

@lyuben
we can lay down super elixir (no regen) , a hot on top and bomb heal (which may also blind and in theory remove all damage). with a propper build and timing you can do this every 15-20 secs. and i didnt even started talking about combos here.

@instant healing
i dont realy see a need for instant heals since we have the upper hand if it comes to cc.

Daemer.1605:

Oh, and the turret aoe heal is absolutely on a one minute cooldown. The regen is on a 20 second cooldown, but I made it very explicit I was talking about instant heals. Reading comprehension is awesome!

I comprehend just fine, thank you. I was pointing out that the combo finisher blasts that it makes available add a LOT more burst healing to the skill especially when you utilize them. Either blow it up for a 20 sec CD blast finisher or use the shield skill and pick it up for 14 Sec CD Blast finisher, or use any other blast finisher with it’s toolbelt. You get healing on less than a minute cooldown and you get regen all the while. Not saying it trumps other classes, just saying it’s more than you give it credit for in your posts.

I know you can lay down a super elixir, mister Achmed. I covered that in my original post, remember? Also, 1400 of that elixir is a HoT which requires you to stand still. Go ahead, stand still for 10 seconds in any fight in PvP. Tell me how that works out for you. It won’t heal you for one tenth of the damage you took by standing still, at any rate.

And the AoE heal combos are nice, I’ll give you that. Is it enough to catch up with the burst heal deficit engineers have on warriors, guardians, and probably even elementalists? I am genuinely interested as I do not have hard numbers on combo heals.

Also, if it does surpass other classes in healing, does it surpass it enough to justify requiring all the effort? Warriors can heal for over 3k(with a .8 +healing coefficient) in a large aoe just by mashing their utility skills, and this is on a 20 second cooldown. I’m pretty sure the guardian heal is even better and only requires one button. Both these classes also capable of instantly removing 3-4 conditions in an AoE while healing, and again, I believe both these classes have access to blast abilities that can also heal – although warriors can’t heal blast combo with themselves, they can drop quite a few blast abilities between the bow, the hammer, and banners.

but i doubt the warriors are as versatile as engies. actualy i dont know at all, but what i know is that we can offer loads of CC, Combo fields and condition removals without even choosing a trait at all. just take the smoke bomb for example. even if it misses some people, if you or allies shoot through it, it will still blind people. with a blast finisher from anyone, it will all make you invisible. the elixir gun reduces healing and endurance regen, adding bleeds removes boons and condiotions, cripples and buffs players …
so if it comes to raw healing values, then yes, they others might heal better. but as a plain supporter char, I’d think we have more to offer.

As I said, I doubt it makes up the missing burst healing between say a Guardian and an Engineer, but using blast finishers I am able to reliably play a support/condition damage build in PvE Dungeons, PvP, and WvW. I can’t heal as much as some other classes, but I am able to notice my burst healing rather than simply waiting on Regen all day, lol. I run the Elixir gun and the Healing turret as my only heal skills, but the blast finishers make up a large amount of my heal potential. I do agree with you though, I wish the Toolbelt on Elixir gun for example was a burst heal rather than more regen. Particularly because it doesn’t combo. And the Toss Elixir H skill is pathetic, it doesn’t heal and you’re not even guaranteed a Regen buff. Regen isn’t the best, but I don’t think intensity stacking would help it. Mostly because it would change Regens’ entire purpose, preventative healing. It would be a burst heal over time and would probably be preferable to true burst heals if you could stack it like the Engineer can because I can drop 4-5 Regens in under 2 seconds if I like… That’s healing for more than the Guardian if I trait for duration increase and build healing. Not the way to fix it IMO.

achmed.6542:

but i doubt the warriors are as versatile as engies. actualy i dont know at all

No, you don’t. A healing shout warrior can remove 4 conditions in an aoe every 20 seconds. So can guardians. Warriors can apply something like 7-9 stacks of might along with some fury to a group using self-combos and shouts and if they’re hammer/rifle they have a myriad of stuns and snares and knockbacks. The guardian is hands-down the best support and can lay down impassable walls and have a huge number of AoE buffs and heals and cleanses that probably dwarfs anyone else in the game.

I’m not saying engineers are completely insufficient, I am saying that they are inferior to other classes when they try to go support. I agree with Sin – making just one or two of their aoe heals more powerful and instant would make them much more competetive.

seriously, you can’t just look at a few skills and say they are better, because numberwhise they probably will be. Numberhwise Warriors and thiefs will eat me allive and yet im still able to kill them. Numbers mean nothing!

achmed.6542:

seriously, you can’t just look at a few skills and say they are better, because numberwhise they probably will be. Numberhwise Warriors and thiefs will eat me allive and yet im still able to kill them. Numbers mean nothing!

Numbers mean everything, assuming two players of equal skill.

Anecdotes mean nothing.

numbers would only mean anything if those two players have equal skill and more important, an equal class…

Regen is supposed to counter conditions and give you a little extra healing on the side while blocking or dodging. It’s appropriate that a player who does not have a lot of healing stats be unable to regen versus an opponent with high condition damage.

If you complain that regen isn’t doing enough, then buff your healing.

Regen is designed to help you out against conditions more than anything else. It’s designed to help you outlast the damage they do.

Regen has a higher damage ratio than poison or 2 stacks of bleed, so if your healing matches another player’s condition you will wipe poison out, or you can last against the short duration bleeds (a stack usually doesn’t last more than 5 or so seconds).

Regen isn’t made to protect against hard-hitting direct damage. That’s what your direct heals are for. And you can protect yourself against direct damage further by blocking or dodging.

You can’t complain about regen if you don’t stack +Healing for it. It’s as simple as that.

Sporadicus, have you tested how inefficient +healing is? Losing one of your stats that could be power, precision, toughness or vitality, in favour of healing is simply bad. The amount of healing you get from +healing, is extremely insignificant.

And honestly, warriors with the shout build are extremely useful.

With the rune of the soldier, and the right traits, every shout removes a condition, heals for a very significant amount 2000-3000 and has an additional effect. Shake it off removes a further condition, for great justice adds might and fury and fear me/on my target help your team by controlling your foe.

Then, you can even trait the warhorn, so that it converts a condition on 2, 16s cooldown AoE buffs.

Nothing an engineer does can rival this… and this a warrior does while being supremely mobile and without silly restrictions or relying on regeneration. The amount of healing from 3 shouts, can rival a self heal.

+Healing is more efficient than power or condition damage. If you want to do damage with both, you have to split your stats up between them. However, if you want to boost your regen and direct healing, you only have to buff one stat.

Removing conditions? Tossed Elixir R, Boosted Healing Turret, Elixir C, the combo field from Elixir Guns Super Elixir, Med Kit’s Antidote, and also the Elixir Gun’s Fumigate cure conditions. Not to mention you can talent into Alchemy to have every elixir used (excluding elixir gun) remove conditions when you use them.

Regen? Elixir R’s Super Elixir and the toolbelt skill, Elixir H both tossed and drunk (randomly – yes, that’s a big pain), Healing Turret both set down and toolbelt, and many traits provide regen. Supply crate drops a healing turret out, too for regen.

Healing? Elixir H, Healing turret (to yourself and the boosted ability, which gives everyone a small heal), med kits healing packages and the toolbelt skill (toolbelt for yourself), supply crate drops healing kits, and then you have . . . . uhm . . that’s it. If you use the healing turret strategically (Drop it for the heal and a regen, then pick it up), then you have a heal every 15-20 seconds.

We have ways to heal, and we have regens. And we have combos that do both or can be traited to do either or both. We also have dodges, blocks, blinds, and stealths ti help us mitigate damages.

We have plenty of both healing and regen, and we have ways to remove conditions.

“+Healing is more efficient than power or condition damage. If you want to do damage with both, you have to split your stats up between them”

Oh god, I should stop reading here. Bring +1000 healing to a fight with an anything with +1000 power or +1000 condition damage and watch as you die almost as fast as you would have if you had no +healing at all. Even if you get a whole lot of +healing, that +120 health regen is going to jump up to an amazing(!!!) 250 regen. 1000 power, on the other hand, is going to turn a 1.5-2.5k hammer swing every second into a 3-5k hammer swing every second. Likewise, 1000 condition damage will turn 600 dps in bleeds and burning into 1200 dps. +healing is not very desirable, and that’s entirely okay, because this game isn’t supposed to have healing that can overwhelm anybody’s dps. That’s not the problem and it has absolutely nothing to do with anything anyway because we’re talking about how the engi does relative to other classes. If a warrior or guardian or ele stacked +healing like an engi stacked +healing they’d still laugh an engi out of any group in terms of both numbers and usefulness.

Everything you just listed is a way of doing something any of the other already discussed classes do only with lower numbers, more difficulty, and less overall effectiveness. Throwing potions? Tiny AoE, delay time, negligible buffs. Let’s compare throwing elixir B. You can give 1 stack of might OR a few seconds of retaliation OR a few seconds of swiftness or fury. “For Great Justice” on the other hand hits a 5x larger area, is instant, gives 3 stacks of might and fury, heals for 1.3k, and removes a condition – oh and, it doesn’t interrupt your attack. No contest.

Throwing elixir R? Turns one condition into a boon in a tiny area. “Shake it off!”? 5x the area, 1.3k healing, removes two conditions, breaks stun. All of this can be used instantly(unlike just about any of the abilities and combos you just listed), in a wide area(unlike 90% of the things you just listed) and does the same thing while not even forcing the caster to stop DPSing. I don’t even want to bring up what the guardian can do with their tools in comparison.

The engineer has a lot of tools, yes, I’m not debating that, I’ve never even tried to infer otherwise. However, other classes have these same tools and they’re much better.

The problem is with regen itself not being very effective.

It should increase in magnitude the longer it ticks without a player getting hit. If a player gets hit, then the regen would intensity goes back to square one and starts over again.

But right now regen isn’t promoting any thoughtful strategy like that. It is more a placebo effect.