Guild Wars 2

Whether they can move or not does not determine if they are NPCs, its whether they are an entity or not. From there you can add tags such as structure that come with a set of rules that determines how it functions.
so the structure tag for example would make it immune to crits and having dots applied to it. Another tag might be “useable” this would be part of say the elite motor or the other siege weapons.
While NPC is usually associated with an entity that appears “alive” such as a villager or a firefly it actually covers just about anything that is an entity. For example, if there are boulders that you have to destroy to clear a cave entrance, them boulders are NPCs. Thoes resource nodes that you chop/mine/gather are NPCs.
That tower you just climbed to get that vista point, not an NPC but the vista is.

I like how this gets 50 post but the feedback thread I made on turrets got squat: “https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Turret-feedback/first#post2035401” clearly I need to be more inflammatory.

For those too lazy to click the link I’ll quote myself (warning, you may need to read):

Numot.3965:

As the title states, feedback on turrets.

Turrets don’t quite seem up to par with other utilities at the moment. This doesn’t mean that they are weak or useless, just they don’t feel as good as they could be due to a number of reasons:

• Turrets are static – As stationary placed objects turrets seem somewhat out of place in GW2 combat, were movement is very important in how encounters play out. This has its advantages in static defensive situations, but if you’re in an encounter when the combat is mobile (i.e., pve exploration, escorting, etc.) turrets fall behind. This by far is probably the biggest issue holding them back in my eyes.

• They feel awkward to manage at times – Having the ability to pick up your turret is great as it shortens cool down time and returns it’s stowed tool-belt skill. The draw back is you need to be by your turret to pick it up. While that’s fine, makes sense and works, it means you may be slowed down after encounters because you’re picking up your turrets. Especially if you set them out of the way. That’s not even getting into the effort of doing things like overcharging and then blowing them up like healing turret for maximum effectiveness.

• Semi prohibitive cool downs make them unattractive – I love rocket turret, but seldom use it because of how often I can make use of it and have it be useful. Turret cool downs, both on their tool belt skills and utility are the length they are because you can spend points in tools (to lower tool belt skills) and pick them up (shortening the utility skill itself). Even still some seem to fall behind, such as the thumper turret with shockwave. Now granted shockwave’s cool down reduction as of late it is a step in the right direction but it’s a great example of something having a cool down so high for whakitten does thakitten isn’t worth taking.

How can we improve turrets? I think turrets would be better if they were:

Short duration but potent – The turret you plop down doesn’t last long, maybe only 5s, using its skill, but then falling apart afterwards. Rifle turret fires a piercing volley of 5 shots, rocket turret fires 3 rockets (first 2 burn, last knocks down), so on so forth. The point is you use a turret like you use any other skill. This solves a number of issues at the same time. It makes them easier to manage for starters (helping new players), makes them more attractive for splashing into builds, as well as more suitable for mobile combat. Turrets only really feel like they pull their worth if they stick around for awhile (save healing turret), even then seem underwhelming at times.

edit: go go censor being weird.

Imagine if it was possible to have more than 1 of the same type of turret slotted…

A different setup than any other skill in the game but the options get interesting while keeping every other aspect of the turrets the same.

Rezzet.3614:

Mesmer Clone:

some advantages:

Mobile
Applies conditions
Buffs Allies
Absorb 50% damage player would take
low cooldowns
long range
Damages Foes when killed
have permanent retaliation when traited
some clones deal massive damage
can be sacrificed in exchange for various effects= F- skills

I think you need to play a Mesmer, you listed pretty much all Phantasm skills in there. At once. And as a clone.

Don’t get me wrong, I love turrets but this video is what turrets feel like when you are trying to use them sometime x)

(deploying a turret and activating the overcharge)

Numot.3965:

Short duration but potent – The turret you plop down doesn’t last long, maybe only 5s, using its skill, but then falling apart afterwards. Rifle turret fires a piercing volley of 5 shots, rocket turret fires 3 rockets (first 2 burn, last knocks down), so on so forth. The point is you use a turret like you use any other skill. This solves a number of issues at the same time. It makes them easier to manage for starters (helping new players), makes them more attractive for splashing into builds, as well as more suitable for mobile combat. Turrets only really feel like they pull their worth if they stick around for awhile (save healing turret), even then seem underwhelming at times.

Hmm…Interesting idea. For this to work I think they would have to be ground targeted deployable as baseline. No point in dropping something that does 1-and-done actions right on top of you. I’d like to have them deployable with no timer, but a charge. That means you can pre-drop turrets for point defense and they’ll stay (5 min max) until they do their action, then die. Then we can trait em for an extra charge: 2 actions (with ICD of x seconds), then crumble. Won’t be any more powerful than they are now, but they’ll have reduced cooldowns that will let us drop them more often, not have to worry about picking them up just so we can use them in a reasonable amount of time, and will make them more “mobile” by design.

I will say though that I don’t see this change being beneficial for Healing Turret. HT’s mechanics would have to remain as-is, but I think that’s doable.

Thumper turret is just about useless actually. the cooldown is extremely unacceptable on them all but most especially the thumper that’s almost a whole minute.

Then they’re really going to tell me that they can’t reduce the cooldowns from picking them up to 10 seconds across the board? really? So apparently engineers are too stupid now to turn one off pick it up put it back down and hit the on switch. yeah that’s believeable right? sigh.

And don’t get me started on the pets dying in two seconds when there’s an AOE thing. Why is it they can’t see beyond their pride and actually implement the single best fix in any game in mmo history for pets dying without nerfing AOE’s? Pets just need an 90% immunity to AOE across the board. That would fix the pet classes right now instantly.

I hate to bring this up but people who migrated from WoW know what I’m talking about and just because Blizz did it they aren’t going to do it here but they’re going to further break skills by nerfing AOE’s. yeah that’ll work, not.

tigirius.9014:

Why is it they can’t see beyond their pride and actually implement the single best fix in any game in mmo history for pets dying without nerfing AOE’s? Pets just need an 90% immunity to AOE across the board. That would fix the pet classes right now instantly.

You know, the same company which did that did actually originally want players to babysit their pets 110% of the time. However they – for a very very long time – could not get a “Move over there”-command working, so they eventually dropped the idea and just made pets another form of a DoT.

Sure, it “fixed” the problem. The issue was that a pet-class plays no different from a non-pet class, except that one of their dots uses a separate model as a graphical effect.

It works, but it isn’t exactly smart design. Ofc for turrets the problem is quite different. I guess my rambling mostly goes for the Ranger and partially for the Mesmer.

Turrets should probably have an AE reduction, yes. Something around 40%-50%. 90% is much too high btw, because it ultimately makes them immune to AEs, which means any enemy which has no chain- or cleave-attacks cannot really destroy them at all any more. More so, some attacks are AE but have to be used in single-target situations (Pistol #1 is a good example). How would an Engineer with a Pistol viably destroy Turrets in PvP?

The issue is… complex. The WoW-answer was a cop out because they could not get their original design goal to work due to a lack of programming, but it wasn’t a smart implementation either.

(edit)
Also, considering the whining already happening, I don’t think -90% AE damage is the answer for Mesmer pets.

I think the problem a lot of people have with turrets are that they expect them to be the cake walk that rangers and necroes seem to have with their pets and minions.

Turrets are stationary attack utilities. and no they don’t target the “wrong thing”. They will only attack odd things when you aren’t fighting something so just pick them up. For instance, they will attack any red label enemy that’s within range. Other than that, they do attack things like centaur supplies and other turrets. but they won’t attack a yellow label enemy unless you attack it, so they won’t hit a moa unless it’s been aggroed. When you are skirmishing with an enemy, turrets will attack that enemy. When you are engaging multiple enemies, the turrets will choose the best/nearest enemy of that group.

I don’t know why people think devs aren’t paying attention to turrets or like they are a major issue. The issue is how you play with the turrets. I started off as a turret engi and I graduated to using kits and elixirs for smart opponents. When I came back to turrets later on, I found out they own in low level PvE and against melee only opponents in PvP. Yeah they take damage and no they don’t outlast mobs, but if you use them right and don’t rely on them to fight for you but to augment your DPS then you will be okay.

For instance, if you’re blowing up a gate in PvP, being a turret engineer rocks because of all the blast finishers. If you’re stacking might on a FT napalm strip, again detonating turrets rocks. If you’re trying to knock a mob off their feet, Thumper Turret overcharge knockdown is great! If you’re kiting a meat tank in PvE, flame turret’s overcharge smoke field is awesome. I use net turret for 3 successive immobilizations when I’m kiting something. And yes, rocket turret’s attack and overcharge attacks both rock which is why the cooldown is so high on it. But I don’t set out my turrets and expect them to just own for me, I use them smartly and with full utility to keep me alive, give me and my team heals and combo someone to death. Also they are a great “early warning system” in WvW. if you set a turret up in a key location and it’s destroyed, you’ll see the cooldown in your skill bar and know where an enemy is. Do I wish they could crit? Sure. Do i wish they did more damage? Double sure. But in a game where people set up bots to farm, having turrets any stronger/durable would mean an influx of bot engineers or just jerks.

If you want a game where engineers own fully, try Torchlight 2. They have golems, chaser mines, heal bots that follow you, giant wrenches for melee weapons, and handheld cannons. The amount of control, movement ability and options though is no match for guild wars 2.

Carighan.6758:

Turrets should probably have an AE reduction, yes. Something around 40%-50%. 90% is much too high btw, because it ultimately makes them immune to AEs, which means any enemy which has no chain- or cleave-attacks cannot really destroy them at all any more.

Exactly WHY would that be a problem? you do realize there’s a cap on condi damage, that turrets don’t really do much themselves, AND that placing them in a stationary position already makes them vulnerable, and finally that they are affected by the bounce skills because those aren’t considered AOE’s like the ranger axe for instance.

Giving the other classes a better chance for killing pets isn’t the answer, and neither is nerfing AOE’s but they want to nerf them because players use them exclusively.

Now, if they nerfed AOEs, made turrets mobile, and gave them a 60-70% immunity that would solve the problem probably.

you are aware that with deployable turrets you can place then out of harms way, right?
which forces your opponents to directly target them, right?
which means that they aren’t targetting you for that moment, right?
which means that you, as a skilled player, can turn that in to an advantage, right?

turrets are not pets, and just because you want them to be will not make them so.

turrets are stationary structured utilities. wrap your head around this, and you will become much less stressed and fretful over everything, and actually understand what Anet is trying to do with them.

nakoda.4213:

you are aware that with deployable turrets you can place then out of harms way, right?
which forces your opponents to directly target them, right?
which means that they aren’t targetting you for that moment, right?
which means that you, as a skilled player, can turn that in to an advantage, right?

turrets are not pets, and just because you want them to be will not make them so.

turrets are stationary structured utilities. wrap your head around this, and you will become much less stressed and fretful over everything, and actually understand what Anet is trying to do with them.

the big catch 22 with your example is that a turret placed out of harm’s way with deployable turrets… will attack the nearest target, be that a pet, a door, an add.
Hardly ever that nearest target is your target.

The only way to make sure the turret is targeting your target, is by putting the turret right on top of your target and you.

The AI works directly opposite the benefit of deployable turrets.
Their squishyness forces you to not put them where your target hits, cleaves and aoe’s.

You can’t win.

Fix one of these factors: the squishyness and/or the AI and turrets are actually very good damage and great utility.
I love them. But when fighting anything else than a singled out target dummy, they fail in some way.

Right, and no one has argued that the AI is where it needs to be. I certainly haven’t.

But, that does not discount the fact that you can use turrets intelligently on the play field and work them to your advantage.

The place where turrets are most beneficial, by theory/design, is point defense in TPVP.

In most scenarios, you start in a 1v1 fight as a turret bunker, so your turret rarely has problems targetting.

Oh, but a mesmer or a minion necro showed up first, mew mew! My turrets can’t pick a target!
- You don’t suppose .. just maybe .. maaayyyyybe … that that is (at the very least) a small part of the point/benefit of being a mesmer or pet class?

things that everyone has agreed on:
- low HP pool [problematized by large hitbox]
- inefficient AI [problematized by lack of direct turret control]
- long cooldowns [problematized by lack of mobility]

But I stand by my assertion that part of the usability problem with Turrets is that people think they should be pets, and that is a completely different frame of mind for using them than if you were to (correctly, in my opinion) understand that turrets are not pets, and thus function differently.

I’ve given my feedback on how I think turrets would be improved as utilities. Y’all skimmed over it crying about lack of mechanical legs to let your turrets follow you.

/shrug.

I never said turrets should move. Not once, ever.

Point defending pvp is probaby the closest turrets get to an optimal setting.
It’s almost a clear arena with hardly any other diversion than your enemies themselves.

In any other part of the game, turret targeting is much more an issue than in point defending.

You described how it is not entirely optimal in their best setting, point defense. Now consider how it is an issue anywhere else in the game.
From pvp roaming, over WvW anything, to pve questing or dungeons…

Turrets have very low health, toolbelt skills suck, and they can’t break stuns. Even if you deploy them out of harms way, it takes less effort to destroy them than it does to put them in safe places. Clones and phantasms have utility that offsets their defense, Pets have more defense/are easier to control.

Thumper Turret should have the same health/toughness as an ursine pets so that it is actually tough to kill, the toolbelt skill should break stuns (it already has a long enough cool down and all turret builds have no way to cleanse disables).

Flame Turret should have hp/tough of drake pets since they need to be closer to the enemy but are not as tanky as the thumper, the toolbelt skill needs to have a shorter cooldown or have some utility to justify it like condition transfer.

Healing, Rifle and Rocket turrets need to have hp/tough of cat pets that way they last longer than a few seconds but are still easier to kill than the flame or thumper turret.
Rocket can knockdown for 1 sec or have a cooldown of 15 sec.

Kimbald.2697:

Point defending pvp is probaby the closest turrets get to an optimal setting.
It’s almost a clear arena with hardly any other diversion than your enemies themselves.

In any other part of the game, turret targeting is much more an issue than in point defending.

You described how it is not entirely optimal in their best setting, point defense. Now consider how it is an issue anywhere else in the game.
From pvp roaming, over WvW anything, to pve questing or dungeons…

and in what scenario has pvp and pve ever worked the same?

nakoda.4213:

Kimbald.2697:

Point defending pvp is probaby the closest turrets get to an optimal setting.
It’s almost a clear arena with hardly any other diversion than your enemies themselves.

In any other part of the game, turret targeting is much more an issue than in point defending.

You described how it is not entirely optimal in their best setting, point defense. Now consider how it is an issue anywhere else in the game.
From pvp roaming, over WvW anything, to pve questing or dungeons…

and in what scenario has pvp and pve ever worked the same?

your flamethrower works in both, doesn’t it?
Pistols work in both.
etc etc

what are you saying? That turrets are fine because they are decent in a single role of a single form of half the game?

You keep saying things like “Turrets are not pets” and “Turrets are utilities” Could you maybe explain what you think these words mean and why you think they are mutually exclusive?
Really seems like your arguing over semantics.

I thought I explained that when I described turrets as structures like seize weapons, did I not?

pets are controllable companions.
utilities are skills on cool downs.

whether you like it or not, a turret is just an extra auto attack utility.
- a net every 10 seconds.
- a rocket every 4
- a thump every 3
- regen every 3
- flame every (what? I don’t know, I never use it, tbh) 3 or 4.

it’s like ctrl+clicking your utility slot to fire on auto. that’s it, that’s all

I am done here. you want this thread to be a qq turrets sick thread, and not a source of information about turrets that can lead to improvement.
you want pets.

go play a pet class.

nakoda.4213:

I thought I explained that when I described turrets as structures like seize weapons, did I not?

pets are controllable companions.
utilities are skills on cool downs.

whether you like it or not, a turret is just an extra auto attack utility.
- a net every 10 seconds.
- a rocket every 4
- a thump every 3
- regen every 3
- flame every (what? I don’t know, I never use it, tbh) 3 or 4.

it’s like ctrl+clicking your utility slot to fire on auto. that’s it, that’s all

I am done here. you want this thread to be a qq turrets sick thread, and not a source of information about turrets that can lead to improvement.
you want pets.

go play a pet class.

I don’t want pets.
I do want turrets to be smart enough to be usefull outside of point defending.
Or I want them to be resilient enough to have the time to make up for their own AI mistakes.

I did suggestions to their improvement. None of them said ‘give them wheels’.

You can call them how you wish to. But since they’re controlled by the AI, they are basically pets. Like the guardians’ spirit weapons or necromancers’ minions and rangers’ spirits (that can’t even move unless you’ve got a trait; albeit, our turrets don’t get destroyed if we go too far). And all of them have got sequence skills – exactly like our overcharge.
And despite what you say, you can’t simply “place them out of harms way”. 2 out of 5 have got to stay in close range to properly attack. The healing turret requires you and allies to stay quite near to benefit from its effects. And even our elite place them all together (and as such, they get destroyed like immediatly) and since it stuns on hit, it is a given that you should use it ON the enemy (especially since the only turret with a proper attack there is the flame one, unless you’ve got the elite supplies trait).