Guild Wars 2

Xyonon.3987:

Artaz.3819:

Vulnerability applied by Engineer now does break bar damage. (It needs to be a “special” debuff to accommodate for Vulnerability being overwritten) Done.

Still wouldn’t give us a solid spot :/ It’s definityl not cc we lack.

My suggestion is meant to give Engineer the preferred spot for break bar boss mechanics but not completely kill any other class from contributing. It’s an additional break bar “DoT”. Added side effect, it also doesn’t screw with PvP balance. But also, if other classes (in the raid) don’t need to slot a break bar utility, that contributes much more to the raid as a whole.

Question. Why do you guys want such a buff when condi engie has been meta in fractals/dungeon/raids for a long time now?
And is it what you want?
Edit:
To avoid overbuff as engie is top condi dps they would probably exchange https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pinpoint_Distribution with a trait that gives the party 150 condition damage. So your meta build gets nerfed by 100 condi damage and the two other condi builds get 150 more.

I’m not so great at math. How far is the gap between
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Druid_-_A/T_Condition
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Reaper_-_Viper_Horror

And http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Engineer_-_Condition_Raids

How many condi builds need to be in the raid so that giving 150 to the party is more dps than you losing 100?

Daniel Handler.4816:

Question. Why do you guys want such a buff when condi engie has been meta in fractals/dungeon/raids for a long time now?

Simple, no one wants to play a 20+ button rotation for DPS (condi meta Engineer is 4 kits) that is still less DPS than Elementalist and Thief that anyone can do with a 3rd as many button pushes and timer rotation memorizes and still lacks the unique"r" flavor that other classes bring via unique offensive buffs.

Engineers don’t get asked to be invited to raids by default. You need to prove your value and practice like crazy to get to a peak performance level since the DPS is not top tier (without a ton of practice) and even then it is handicapped behind at least two other classes. Add to the lack of class-specific offensive/defensive utility, well, you now see.

DPS Charts: Link

Daniel Handler.4816:

Edit:
To avoid overbuff as engie is top condi dps they would probably exchange https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pinpoint_Distribution with a trait that gives the party 150 condition damage. So your meta build gets nerfed by 100 condi damage and the two other condi builds get 150 more.

Honestly, like the idea but that trait should belong to Necro. If I mained a Necro, I would be totally offended that the Engineer got it.

Artaz.3819:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Question. Why do you guys want such a buff when condi engie has been meta in fractals/dungeon/raids for a long time now?

Simple, no one wants to play a 20+ button rotation for DPS (condi meta Engineer is 4 kits) that is still less DPS than Elementalist and Thief that anyone can do with a 3rd as many button pushes and timer rotation memorizes and still lacks the unique"r" flavor that other classes bring via unique offensive buffs.

Engineers don’t get asked to be invited to raids by default. You need to prove your value and practice like crazy to get to a peak performance level since the DPS is not top tier (without a ton of practice) and even then it is handicapped behind at least two other classes. Add to the lack of class-specific offensive/defensive utility, well, you now see.

DPS Charts: Link

Your link confirms the worry I had in my edit. The condi dps for necro and Druid is noticeably less than engineer.

Given that the buff needs to be unique, the only offensive stat left is condition damage.

As I said. To avoid overbuff, engie would not be able to keep https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pinpoint_Distribution or the trait would replace a different master in firearms.

Either the buff is useless, becaue everyone would still take pinpoint (given that your dps exceeds all other condi builds). Or the buff is harmful, because you lose 100 condi damage to give 150 condi damage to builds with much less condi dps.

Edit: you can also gain healing power, vitality, or condi duration but a unique buff is still useless for high dps. I would recommend getting over the concept, after all Chronomancer has a unique buff but is still bound to a specific build and rotation.

Artaz.3819:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Question. Why do you guys want such a buff when condi engie has been meta in fractals/dungeon/raids for a long time now?

Simple, no one wants to play a 20+ button rotation for DPS (condi meta Engineer is 4 kits) that is still less DPS than Elementalist and Thief that anyone can do with a 3rd as many button pushes and timer rotation memorizes and still lacks the unique"r" flavor that other classes bring via unique offensive buffs.

Engineers don’t get asked to be invited to raids by default. You need to prove your value and practice like crazy to get to a peak performance level since the DPS is not top tier (without a ton of practice) and even then it is handicapped behind at least two other classes. Add to the lack of class-specific offensive/defensive utility, well, you now see.

DPS Charts: Link

Agreed

J envy.5270:

Artaz.3819:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Question. Why do you guys want such a buff when condi engie has been meta in fractals/dungeon/raids for a long time now?

Simple, no one wants to play a 20+ button rotation for DPS (condi meta Engineer is 4 kits) that is still less DPS than Elementalist and Thief that anyone can do with a 3rd as many button pushes and timer rotation memorizes and still lacks the unique"r" flavor that other classes bring via unique offensive buffs.

Engineers don’t get asked to be invited to raids by default. You need to prove your value and practice like crazy to get to a peak performance level since the DPS is not top tier (without a ton of practice) and even then it is handicapped behind at least two other classes. Add to the lack of class-specific offensive/defensive utility, well, you now see.

DPS Charts: Link

Agreed

REALLY? This is what I thought from the beginning. I asked you several times if a unique buff was what you wanted. And now you have just proven how useless this discussion was.

A unique buff does not equal changing the mechanics behind your class so they are less unique. Alacrity didn’t get rid of Illusions, your class will always have kits and no weapon swap. I now realize this entire discussion was just to brainstorm a way for you to play a build that is not as intensive as quadruple kit. So here are some classes you could play instead.

How about necro?

The only difference between the rotation in
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Engineer_-_Condition_Raids

Vs
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Reaper_-_Viper is that the Necromancer has a set order. Both have too many buttons.

Engies who can master their toolbox have the highest condi dps in the game, those who can’t do less than a condi necro . You might not like this class because they have less power dps than a thief or elementalist.

So option one is to play Necro for less rewards than people with the skill to play engie.

How about mesmer?
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Chronomancer_-_Utility_DPS_
Their meta build has lots of button presses too. Fortunately the number of skills is far less though (they go for a chain of fast recharging skills).

Now I must warn you, they don’t have top tier condi dps like engie. In fact they have the lowest condi and power dps. But that’s okay because they make up for it by boosting everyone else’s. They also have a unique party buff called alacrity.

Now what is alacrity for?

Well when ANET saw that engie was top condi dps, and ele was top power dps they decided to widen the gap even more. How? Well alacrity speeds up rotations of skills with cooldown. So Chronomancers are asymmetrically beneficial to classes with a “20+ button rotation” and longer cooldowns like, you guessed it, engie and ele.

But isn’t that useful?

Well it is if you like playing support. By heavily boosting those at the top they now can’t have a viable power OR condi build in the dps war because an ele/engie/raid under alacrity/perma quickness puts out the dps of four extra players. And they won’t build a spec for mesmer that has that kinda damage.

Mesmer is option two if you want to use even less skills and have top tier condi/dps by boosting the classes that have always been better than you. (you are going to want to click the squad participation button. As your personal dps will be way under anyone else in the raid)

If you still want to be an engie and the issue is specifically beating the skill ceiling of condi necro in raids then I actually do have a solution for that.

For vale guardian and moving targets elementalists uses a fresh air d/wh build over staff. You need a change on that level because the dps from your rotation is largely due to fields. You need an elite spec that strongly buffs static discharge and/or makes all ground effects hover around the engie rather than being applied to the area. party buffs will not boost condi engie over condi necro on mobile targets.

I personally prefer a hard to play profession, but it also has to be rewarding.

To simply boost the dps over other professions is the wrong solution, since you would just start stacking really good engis then. And that’s what lead to the Ele nerfs in the first place. It’s unhealthy for the game.

Party wide buffs are exactly what we need and yes it would indeed help power and condi Engi. I don’t see any problem about condi Engi vs mobile targets – the only skill that trule loses dps is Napalm and that one is only 1400-1800 of our total dps. If you swap it for Rocket Boots and spam Rocket Kick instead of Napalm and Incendiary Ammo, it’s even just a 700-900 dps loss.

i have mentioned countless times in this thread that i play all 9 classes, I may have not raided since december since i’ve been busy playing other games(Legion atm), and been busy doing other game modes when i do login, but the whole reason i made this thread to begin with is to bring attention to engineers and thiefs, by giving them a reason to be added into hardcore pve content.
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I have full ascended gear for raiding on my viper engi, zerk ele, zerk rev, and zealots druid….i have no need to play neither a necro or a mesmer, but that is not the point of this post. If i do indeed wanted to start raiding again(eventually, when i get bored),i will find a group of people that i can agree with, and i am sure that i won’t have any problems, but i am speaking for other players who only play, or only has geared 1 class(engineer/thief), and have trouble looking for groups.

You are so against my idea of a condition dmg/duration party wide buff….why idk….its just a suggestion, i am not here to fight you about your opinions, you are entitled to say whatever you want, i am only here to bring attention(like many other threads in this engineer forum)that engineers(& thiefs) need to be improved for raids and other hardcore group pve content. All i ask is 1 small party wide buff…

I am very capable of playing my engineer, a class that i have played as a main for 4 years, and experimented with all the possible builds in pve,pvp,wvw…..i have no problems running 4 kits, honestly i enjoy it(playing other mmos with 3x more skilbars than gw1/gw2…i am very used to it), the only small request i ask(which is not a useless discussion – though you won’t agree), is to have that 1 small buff unique to the class. I never said it will be all that the engi need to be UBER META or top tier, i just wanted 1 small buff, just to get a fair nod. Hoping this would help alleviate some of the problems that engi/thief-only players have been having since raids came out. Lets fix problems 1 at a time.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————-

TL’DR: i never meant to fix all engineer problems, so please stop fighting me about it, i just find it silly. Its been 2 weeks since i posted this, i check it everytime i got free time from work, and reading posts where people point out tiny details gets really tiring.

Xyonon.3987:

I personally prefer a hard to play profession, but it also has to be rewarding.

To simply boost the dps over other professions is the wrong solution, since you would just start stacking really good engis then. And that’s what lead to the Ele nerfs in the first place. It’s unhealthy for the game.

Party wide buffs are exactly what we need and yes it would indeed help power and condi Engi. I don’t see any problem about condi Engi vs mobile targets – the only skill that trule loses dps is Napalm and that one is only 1400-1800 of our total dps. If you swap it for Rocket Boots and spam Rocket Kick instead of Napalm and Incendiary Ammo, it’s even just a 700-900 dps loss.

I thought I recognized your name.

I based my claim in this thread off of your work.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/All-Skills-Damage-for-Power-and-Condi-3/first

Specifically this table.
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/221474/Condition_Engineer.png

“The DpiSCT including Quickness shows the true strength of a skill. This is the most important value of them all and shows how mighty a skill really is. You should always priorize your skills according to this to achieve max DpS.”

You said that, and that is why I said condi engi has problems vs mobile targets. You took Grenadier over Glass Canon, giving up 5% dps to make the Grenades more useful against moving enemies. But there is no Grenadier like trait to make it easier for skills to land all of their pulses.

Raid inclusion is based on maximizing DpS. Because of mobile targets you lose

• DpiSCT on napalm (which is double rocket kick)
• the dps of IA
• the lost ticks on skills that pulse
• 5% dps to trait Grenadier

J envy.5270:

[snip]

Okay. Here is my last ditch attempt to help. My frustration stems from you underselling or overselling party bufffs. But first I assume you have heart of thorns so here is a tool you can use to brainstorm something truly unique https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Special_Forces_Training_Area

I am going to post a clearer explanation of the oversell/undersell later, till then have fun testing out ideas in the training area.

Something related to burning or inventions/tools flavorwise would be nice.

Maybe -20% burning duration on allies and/or +10% burning damage with melee attacks.

It’d likely have to be in the Explosives traitline (Therobaric Detonation?) or Firearms (High Caliber?). Tools is iffy, but something like Static Discharge could have such things tacked on.

Definitely not Scrapper,Inventions,Alchemy

edit: reasoning is elementalist , Mesmer staff , condi Reaper with Dhuumfire , Berserker , Guardian (Virtues, etc) , Ranger torch, Revenants with mace all have burning plus any physical projectile with fire fields

It’s also be a buff to pistols on engineers , flamethrower, as well as flame turret

Daniel Handler.4816:

Xyonon.3987:

-snip-

I thought I recognized your name.

I based my claim in this thread off of your work.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/All-Skills-Damage-for-Power-and-Condi-3/first

Specifically this table.
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/221474/Condition_Engineer.png

“The DpiSCT including Quickness shows the true strength of a skill. This is the most important value of them all and shows how mighty a skill really is. You should always priorize your skills according to this to achieve max DpS.”

You said that, and that is why I said condi engi has problems vs mobile targets. You took Grenadier over Glass Canon, giving up 5% dps to make the Grenades more useful against moving enemies. But there is no Grenadier like trait to make it easier for skills to land all of their pulses.

Heya,

I’m honored you took my work as a reference! Semi-recently I released a newer updated variant, that fits the current patch notes. Afaik Rocket Boots have been buffed too. Power Engi and Condi Scrapper are on their way, probably after the next big patch.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4vzplt/engineerscrapper_updated_skill_priority_list_for/

If you look at the condi sheet (http://i.imgur.com/cBxeWM4.png) you can see there are new interesting datas. For example “DpS over AA” tells you exactly how much each skill contributes to your total DpS, if you use it on CD.

On the top you see how much of a DpS increase each kit is, considered Grenade Kit as the baseline due to it’s auto attack.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Raid inclusion is based on maximizing DpS. Because of mobile targets you lose

• DpiSCT on napalm (which is double rocket kick)
• the dps of IA
• the lost ticks on skills that pulse
• 5% dps to trait Grenadier

I agree you lose a big junk of damage from Napalm, but only in the last phase though. You don’t have to break VG at all in the 3rd phase and in the 1st, 2nd and 4th phase your target stands completly still.

You only lose the dps if IA (wich can be quite high if you use KB right, wich I don’t use at VG in the first place though) if you replace the whole kit with the FT.

The lost ticks on skills that pulse? The only massive DpS from a pulsing field comes from Fire Bomb, wich is fairly short and can be placed where your target is heading to. There is also poison Gas Shell – same threatment here.

The 5% damage from the Glass Cannon trait does only affect power damage, same as the neighbor trait Explosive Powder or Modified Ammunation in Firearms. The Condi Engi DpS is pretty precisely 20% power and 80% condi. Against VG with it’s low armor it’s 21.4%. So GC only improves the condi Engi DpS by 1 lousy % … above 90% HP. :P

Wahoo!

@xyonon
Then if dps isn’t reduced by moving targets, lack of use is because of complicated rotations.

An average engie will put out the condi damage of an average necro. A superior engie surpasses a superior necro. Gaining the ability to buff team dps will result in them nerfing engie’s personal dps to compensate/satisfy QQ. Underdog classes hate when optimal damage dealers are buffed. Necro would complain the same way power specs complain about staff ele.

This is what I didn’t explain well enough in previous posts. The current offensive party buffs are power, precision, ferocity, life steal. Condition damage and condition duration are the only unique ones left that affect dps. But these stats directly benefit your optimal build, so you won’t get them without nerfs.

It’s a defensive buff or no buff at all. And defensive party buffs are never meta regardless of spec (as op requested for this buff). I could see them making adrenal implant aoe. I could see them putting some sort of vitality enhancement in invention. Either way its unlikely to go in the meta raid build and if it does it will also come with subsequent nerfs to prevent creeping further over necro.

Moreover, as you joined the discussion in the mesmer forums, you know party buffs increase viability but not personal enjoyment. Mesmers wanted more personal dps, but ended up enhancing the group. You want to get out of quadruple kit, but the buff probably won’t change that.

If this is just about symmetry and enhancing non meta lines that go for it. But small party buffs come with consequences.

Daniel Handler.4816:

It’s a defensive buff or no buff at all. And defensive party buffs are never meta regardless of spec (as op requested for this buff). I could see them making adrenal implant aoe. I could see them putting some sort of vitality enhancement in invention. Either way its unlikely to go in the meta raid build and if it does it will also come with subsequent nerfs to prevent creeping further over necro.

Defensive buffs are not good even if they were raid meta simply because of how they bleed into the other game modes of PvP and WvW (creating far more disruption).

Hence, the suggestion I made earlier this thread to give Engineer a break bar damage enhancement. It’s “offensive” to boss mechanics and unique. Instead of Vulnerability now doing break bar damage, make it a general trait +50% (?) break bar damage increase to 5 allies.

i don’t have any problems with defensive buff…..although i’d rather get an offensive buff, but i will settle for anything as long as we get one(and the thief as well) just for the sake of equality among classes.

@Artaz – i’m looking for a buff that appears with a unique trait icon like the ones i mentioned in the original post, what your suggesting looks good but imagine that changes the devs would have to make just to put your idea in place. Other buffs from other classes like Empower Allies: +150 power, Spotter: 150 precision….these are easy to plug in the game, thats why i am pushing for the devs to put one in place for engis with little effort to them.

J envy.5270:

i don’t have any problems with defensive buff…..although i’d rather get an offensive buff, but i will settle for anything as long as we get one(and the thief as well) just for the sake of equality among classes.

@Artaz – i’m looking for a buff that appears with a unique trait icon like the ones i mentioned in the original post, what your suggesting looks good but imagine that changes the devs would have to make just to put your idea in place. Other buffs from other classes like Empower Allies: +150 power, Spotter: 150 precision….these are easy to plug in the game, thats why i am pushing for the devs to put one in place for engis with little effort to them.

His and your idea are not incompatible.

Honestly I don’t if they would do it, and it seems OP but why not CC duration?

Concussive force:

• 9s duration that is recharged every 3s
• Increase the duration of allied cc by 25% (soft and hard)

Basically each knockdown from slick shoes would do 250 damage to the breakbar rather than 200. Which is quite a lot for you, and even more when you add in the cc of the team.

I now think giving Engineer a unique group buff might be the wrong way to go. I’d rather go back to an old suggestion Xyonon made before and have Engineer provide a unique debuff instead.

Maybe not in the Scrapper traitline as he noted for Expert Examination. Perhaps in an already universal traitline like Explosives. Have Thermobaric Detonation replace Glass Cannon, then place a new GM trait there that will be competitive with the others.

Possibly give Engineers a unique role in vulnerability as they were known for before vulnerability was spread out more, but as a unique debuff with an active upkeep. Something like:

Cracked Armor: Explosives apply Cracked Armor (5s) on foes.
Cracked Armor: 1% incoming damage. Stacks up to 5 times.

Wouldn’t increase the personal DPS of a condition engineer or a power, but it offers something unique. Would allow compositions with other engineers to be flexible around the GM slot and it’s enough of a damage bonus for others to take advantage of to have at least 1 slot reserved for an Engineer.

I think it would be neat if kinetic battery was changed to an active in-combat group buff (as in blinky like facet of nature with a medium icd) and changed from toolbelt to weapon skill (or utility, but {1} kits and {2} mimic make utility a worse choice imo). it’s unique, it’s useful to everyone, it requires skilled play (oh so engi themed), and it’s a trait that was created somewhat recently so it’s code shouldn’t be spaghettied and the devs might still know their way around it to make changes.

So many great ideas, I was happy of at least one of them would make it live :/

So, been busy playing the new content(new map, and new pvp map…), no balance changes this patch, hopefully there will be some changes that shows signs anet noticed this thread for the next one.

dont expect balance changes with content patches that are not also touted as balance patches and dont fall in between pvp seasons :P

insanemaniac.2456:

dont expect balance changes with content patches that are not also touted as balance patches and dont fall in between pvp seasons :P

obviously the next balance patch is soon with the pvp season 4 ending next week. It would make sense that the next patch would have balance changes, but obviously not all patches have balance changes, i was just updating the fact that no changes happened this patch and was being hopeful that the next patch w/e it maybe will show changes, didn’t think i had to make it clear.