Guild Wars 2

I vote that ArenaNet just completely redesign Engineers in how we function and play for the most part. We have so many bugs and issues, and in terms of how we go up against other classes overall is just terrible.

We need a rehaul of our Traits, our numbers, and essentially alot of our spells and functionality. I wouldn’t even mind if Kits and Toolbelt skills were changed fundamentally if it meant that our class got to be fixed.

I don’t know about you guys, but it seems like even if our bugs and issues were fixed, the way our class works is still gimped compared to other classes just based on everyone’s posts around here, and also playing on my own engineer. I feel like we could really benefit from just being redesigned ground up on just about everything.

Some would say just buff damage etc.

I say that if they want the engineer to be good and unique, he really needs cool, versatile, and useful stuff. Right now a lot of those things are lacking.

Turrets are cool, but they are not very useful
Elixirs are useful, but they aren’t really that versatile because the throw abilities do almost nothing, have no radius of effect, and longish cooldowns.

What about mines? Those sound cool, make the playing field a walking nightmare! Not really, they suck kitten
What about all those kits?! You can do everything! Not really, you have to trait for specific kits to make them competitive.

What about gadgets and all those dirty tricks? Battering ram, slick shoes, rocket boots? Small effects on long cooldowns that you’d much rather not waste our precious few utility slots on.

What about those toolbelt abilities?! Engineers, those lucky dogs get twice the abilities of anyone else. How is that not awesome? Toolbelt abilities are nothing like real abilities and have long cooldowns compared to their actual usefulness. You actually have to put in major trait points to make the toolbelt cooldowns slightly shorter.

So it’s pretty drastic, but yes I say a revamp is necessary if you don’t just want to take the lazy way out and just buff all the engineer’s damage and whatnot.

Not quite sure what rehaul means, I’m guessing u mean overhaul and if that is what u mean I don’t think it’s necessary. Yes, we may be a little lack luster in certain areas and riddled with bugs but out class mechanic is fine and fun. More fun than any other class out there in my opinion. All we really need is our bugs fixed and hopefully a buff in DMG and I think we’ll be great.

Almost everything wrong with engineers can be fixed with minor tweaks (example: rocket boots not keeping you on the ground for so long once you land), minor buffs (ex: turret hp/armor buffs; damage buffs) and bugfixes (no more flamethrower misses when the graphic is on them, for example).

The only gadget with a really ‘longish’ cooldown is slick shoes at 60s, the others are all 45s or less. Rocket Boots is only 30s.

Bug fixes would go a long way and instantly make us much more viable. FT bug fixes alone would make everyone scream “Engi iz OP”

The key change I would like to see is the Super Elixir (Elixir Gun #5) field type being changed from Light to Water. That one change would transform the support Engineer from being a second choice in dungeons, to up there with the other support specialists.

Bug fixes kind of go without saying and I suspect that the profession will be in much better shape once they are all addressed. At the moment it’s difficult to evaluate our intended performance because of all the bugs.

Also, getting rid of the self-CC abilities would be super-nice.

FIX the BUGS – SOME are a YEAR OLD – DISGUSTING. . . . . . . .Then re-evaluate the proffession
Sadly i personally believe no dev cares and there wont be any real fixes for engineer. . .unless it helps thief or warrior. . sigils on kits greatly benefited thieves

Fix bugs, a few minor buffs, that’s pretty much it on the PvP side, we’re already in a pretty good place, we just need a few nudges forward to be on par with a few other classes as they are nudged down a bit.

I don’t think the “entire class” needs an overhaul. What we do need:

1. Bug fixes. Badly. The Flamethrower missing, Overcharged Shot and other skills failing to fire, etc.

2. Turrets need an overhaul. Their targeting, damage output, life/toughness, all of it. The turret related traits might be ok, once the turrets themselves see some fixes.

3. The way kits are equipped needs to be changed. Having kits take up utility slots is unacceptable, and takes away much of our supposed “versatility” that is our apparent strong point.

Currently, we are the only class specifically mentioned as having a hybrid tax, yet we are not the most versatile due to the fact that our kits take away our ability to equip essential utility skills, such as stun breakers and self/group buffs. Other classes may equip these freely while still having access to at least 10 weapon attacks each, if not more.

-Travail.

Kits taking up utility slots would be alright IF they used our weapons stats and weren’t buggy. Take, for example, Elixir Gun. By putting this in a utility slot, we get a disengage (4), an aoe cleanse + stacking hot (5), a conal cleanse + poison + vulnerability (3), a bouncing cripple + swiftness (2), and a way to permanently apply weakness (1). That is a LOT more than any other class gets for a single utility slot.

However, the wrench in the machine is that other classes get a second weapon in addition to the three utility slots, which puts us at a disadvantage running 1 kit + 2 other. When we run two or more kits, though, I would say that we have an advantage over everyone save Elementalists (who have four different sets of abilities per weapon).

For me:

1. bug fixes, this alone will make a big difference

2. merging more traits so we have acces to versatile builds instead of the current ‘single purpose’ builds.

3. add more utility to kits, like stunbreaker effects to current kit skills, more condition removal outside of elixir use.

4. increase pistol range and damage to be on par with rifle without spending 2 or 3 traits first.

5. make Mortar stronger in every way, maybe add a function to break doors and walls.

I don’t think it will help.

The more I play other classes the more I realize the problem is with Arena Net, not Engineers.

Maybe after we get a new balance team, but right now I don’t see anything that can help.

Xae.7204:

I don’t think it will help.

The more I play other classes the more I realize the problem is with Blizzard, not Hunters.

Maybe after we get a new balance team, but right now I don’t see anything that can help.

Welcome to the Hunter forums, 2004 onwards.

Absolutely not. I’m happy with my engineer, and generally knock the fluff out of kittens with him. We’ve got a steep learning curve, but we’re hardly a broken class. And the traits! They’re my favorite part. Who else has such easy access to perma-swiftness? And at 25% health, we can trait for a 3-sec invuln + all healing skills recharge. That’s a safety switch that has saved me countless times. The Tool Kit in WvW is a god-send, and Bomb Kit in PvE is my bread and butter. I’m having a lot of fun as we are now.

Besides, even if we do get an overhaul, who says that the new Engi will be any better? It’d be starting from scratch all over again, which brings about a whole host of balance and bug issues.

@ Nikked, the problem is that the more complicated builds require many repetitive keypresses and has a chance of causing RSI, and/or (in my case) inflaming an existing condition with regular use.

This may be just a general GW2/ANet issue. I spent a couple days exploring how the Thief works and I was starting to have the same problem (once she has Trait access it may improve). My Guardian, however, just passed Lv60 and I can play him just fine for hours on end (though I play him semi-passively, working toward the HealWay build).

I’m actually considering starting a thread on the ‘players helping players’ subforum that helps to outline this problem, and steps to still enjoy the game around it (when possible, not requiring expensive hardware). It will probably start in draft form using a post on my personal site, so its easier to maintain.

Nikked.7365:

Who else has such easy access to perma-swiftness?

I’m going to sound nitpicky here, but I far prefer the staff Elementalist perma swiftness, which is arguably more efficient to obtain (doesn’t require a specific trait), can be accomplished in several different ways, applies to nearby allies, and doesn’t require hitting a skill every 5 seconds. Non-staff Eles can accomplish it as well, albeit not quite as efficient and not as group friendly.

Atlanis.6597:

Kits taking up utility slots would be alright IF they used our weapons stats and weren’t buggy. Take, for example, Elixir Gun. By putting this in a utility slot, we get a disengage (4), an aoe cleanse + stacking hot (5), a conal cleanse + poison + vulnerability (3), a bouncing cripple + swiftness (2), and a way to permanently apply weakness (1). That is a LOT more than any other class gets for a single utility slot.

However, the wrench in the machine is that other classes get a second weapon in addition to the three utility slots, which puts us at a disadvantage running 1 kit + 2 other. When we run two or more kits, though, I would say that we have an advantage over everyone save Elementalists (who have four different sets of abilities per weapon).

The Elementalist has the equivalent of 3 kits + 1 primary weapon at all times, without losing access to any utility slots. Necromancers can equip 2 weapons plus Death Shroud (which is essentially a strong kit) again without losing access to any of their utilities. Warrior Banners grant 5 attacks to whoever picks them up, as well as passive AoE buffs. There are weapon summons which grant 5 attacks to the user. We aren’t the only class with access to kits or kit equivalents.

And then there’s the matter of our F mechanic. Look at the Toolbelt for a moment, and consider what it actually does. It gives each of our utilities a second activated effect. Well, that’s great, but it’s not “better” than what other classes have access to without even considering their main mechanic. Every other class in the game, bar none, receives utilities with secondary activated effects.

- Signets (available to every class but ours.)
- The aforementioned Warrior Banners.
- Ranger Spirits.
- Necromancer Minions.
- Guardian Spirit Weapons.
- Mesmer Mantras (multiple uses of a single utility before placing it on cooldown.)

All of these include secondary activated abilities, just like our utilities have Toolbelt skills associated with them. Having a second activated ability associated with utilities is not unique to the Engineer, not by a long shot.

When every other class has F abilities (adrenaline, pets, shatters, etc.) in addition to these double-effect utilities, our Toolbelt starts to look pretty lackluster, doesn’t it?

Make no mistake, this class is no more versatile than any other.

-Travail.

I’ve slapped together a fun little build for WvW that involves cripples. I got myself 2 superior sigils of hobbling off the TP that were selling just above vendor price and slapped them on my shield/pistol for +20% cripple. I picked up 30/20/20 inventions/elixirs/gadgets.

I pick power-wrench at gadgets 20 major. This makes the auto-attack combo apply 5 seconds of cripple, throw wrench apply 5 seconds of cripple, and reduce all cooldowns in tookit like prybar, magnet, and box of nails. I call this a Cripple-Fight spec for stacking cripples.

If engineer’s aren’t meant to be doing damage and instead support, I say CC is a pretty good way to do it especially considering “support” with things like “elixir gun” is a bad joke. I love this in WvW. You can do the usual thing in WvW, use magnet, and then spam all the cripples and he won’t be going anywhere. If you’re attacked by a melee, even surprised by a thief, shield 5 + box of nails is instant breathing room and I find people getting chain-crippled are pretty screwed when help comes along. People can cleanse conditions, but constantly reapplying them with things like throw-wrench and wrench auto-attack makes this pretty funny. Ranged will still mess you up if you can’t magnet them too for some prybar face-time. You can make a very hilarious zerg-picker/CC role for yourself out of the power-wrench trait, and I use dual cripple sigils to make it ridiculous. Some condition duration on your armor or just from pizza +condition food could really exacerbate the pain you are in someone’s rectum.

My version has some bunker in it for the survivability that works really nice for kiting with the cripples, but there are some other mean traits you can use to be more offensive.

The explosives traits have +condition duration with cripple being a condition and you can get the “exploit weakness” trait just 10 points in. Firearms also gets knee-shot just 10 points in which can make net-turret extremely mean and your rifle net similarly so.

I was extremely disappointed to find that kit refinement for toolkit DOESN’T WORK. Sure I guess dropping 2 boxes of nails would be ridiculous OP, But OP on engineer sounds pretty good. Too bad, I take speedy kits so the speed difference between me and the crippled sucker is that much bigger.

Sidenote; if they nerf cripples I’m just gonna reroll and I don’t care who has to hear it.

To anyone who wants a complete overhaul, why go for engineer in the first place? The class is fine imo. It just needs bug fixes and minor tweaks to skills I never use.

Although a super elixir S water field would be so great :o

Travail.7390:

Atlanis.6597:

Kits taking up utility slots would be alright IF they used our weapons stats and weren’t buggy. Take, for example, Elixir Gun. By putting this in a utility slot, we get a disengage (4), an aoe cleanse + stacking hot (5), a conal cleanse + poison + vulnerability (3), a bouncing cripple + swiftness (2), and a way to permanently apply weakness (1). That is a LOT more than any other class gets for a single utility slot.

However, the wrench in the machine is that other classes get a second weapon in addition to the three utility slots, which puts us at a disadvantage running 1 kit + 2 other. When we run two or more kits, though, I would say that we have an advantage over everyone save Elementalists (who have four different sets of abilities per weapon).

The Elementalist has the equivalent of 3 kits + 1 primary weapon at all times, without losing access to any utility slots. Necromancers can equip 2 weapons plus Death Shroud (which is essentially a strong kit) again without losing access to any of their utilities. Warrior Banners grant 5 attacks to whoever picks them up, as well as passive AoE buffs. There are weapon summons which grant 5 attacks to the user. We aren’t the only class with access to kits or kit equivalents.

And then there’s the matter of our F mechanic. Look at the Toolbelt for a moment, and consider what it actually does. It gives each of our utilities a second activated effect. Well, that’s great, but it’s not “better” than what other classes have access to without even considering their main mechanic. Every other class in the game, bar none, receives utilities with secondary activated effects.

- Signets (available to every class but ours.)
- The aforementioned Warrior Banners.
- Ranger Spirits.
- Necromancer Minions.
- Guardian Spirit Weapons.
- Mesmer Mantras (multiple uses of a single utility before placing it on cooldown.)

All of these include secondary activated abilities, just like our utilities have Toolbelt skills associated with them. Having a second activated ability associated with utilities is not unique to the Engineer, not by a long shot.

When every other class has F abilities (adrenaline, pets, shatters, etc.) in addition to these double-effect utilities, our Toolbelt starts to look pretty lackluster, doesn’t it?

Make no mistake, this class is no more versatile than any other.

-Travail.

I follow all your points but I don’t see how it makes the engineer lackluster, engineer has no cooldown on his kits, has the choice to equip 0, 1, 2 or 3 kits and can feely choose which one to use. An ele can’t go back to his original atunement for 15s (default) and can’t swap out one attunement for another.
It’s generally a pretty bad idea to try to compare other professions with the engineer. It’s a totally different style.
And the fact you are even comparing warrior banners to kits makes you’re whole discussion pretty lame imo. Banners are weak compared to any weapon, the only thing they are good for is short duration buffs and some movement between fights.

Atlantis makes sense in his post, you don’t travail.

PS: for me the engineer’s kits aren’t about versatility, it’s about freedom and choice. People who only look at it on paper tend to forget the 1s cooldown, the kit’s skills cooldowns, the practical use of all the skills, etc. They are just too hung up on number of available skills.

We not only need a rehaul we need proper testing.

I read in another forum where we’re being told we have to provide the numbers for anything that’s wrong with the class compared to other classes. Isn’t that what testing is for? I’m not kidding. I’m not linking it but you guys see the problem too right? That testing this doesn’t provide this information, and every person who’s played the game to max and become geared and prepared can clearly see this happening on every other class other then this one. We’re supposed to provide the data for them apparently their data collection software has once again failed to provide the evidence of sitting watching a warrior throw three swings and kill an Orr undead while the engineer has to fire 10 shots from the shotgun, or watch the warrior fire 3 shots from the gun while the engi right next to him has to continually spray flames all over the enemy 5-6 times to kill it. With the same build armor etc no less. This is the kind of thing that disgusts me. If they employed a PTR there wouldn’t be such an issue, but they don’t and then we get surprised every patch with some nonsense that when we complain about it we’re either met with silence or we’re told it’s working as intended.

I’m with the “bugs and tweaks” crowd. The one change I’d like to see is to have the kit toolbelt abilities swapped with the utility skills; F-key to pop out/put away the kit, regular utility skill to use the whatever ability.

Yeah i vote for overhaul. But mainly on fixing turrets (do it properly), removing weapon kits as support utilities and put tham as elite skill so you can only choose 1 (and will be more balanced and our damage wont suffer, as now, since they acuse us that we can do everything and so the dmg must be lower). Oh and elixirs so they arent so random and when you throw them area becoms like guardian symbols or necro wells or some more flashy effects. Plus buff gadgets :p .

Forum topics like this are for theorycrafting of course, so I ‘vote’ for an overhaul.

But in reality I would settle for all important bug fixes and some quality of life improvements on kits and turrets and such…

Clip.6845:

I follow all your points but I don’t see how it makes the engineer lackluster, engineer has no cooldown on his kits, has the choice to equip 0, 1, 2 or 3 kits and can feely choose which one to use. An ele can’t go back to his original atunement for 15s (default) and can’t swap out one attunement for another.
It’s generally a pretty bad idea to try to compare other professions with the engineer. It’s a totally different style.
And the fact you are even comparing warrior banners to kits makes you’re whole discussion pretty lame imo. Banners are weak compared to any weapon, the only thing they are good for is short duration buffs and some movement between fights.

Atlantis makes sense in his post, you don’t travail.

PS: for me the engineer’s kits aren’t about versatility, it’s about freedom and choice. People who only look at it on paper tend to forget the 1s cooldown, the kit’s skills cooldowns, the practical use of all the skills, etc. They are just too hung up on number of available skills.

We can’t compare our own class to others? I’m glad the devs don’t share that sentiment, as comparing classes is the only way to balance them. More to the point, comparing individual specs across classes.

Other players talk about versatility as if we are the only class to receive a huge number of attacks, due to our kits. In truth, this is not a mechanic which is unique to kits, and so our “versatility” by virtue of our high number of attacks is overrated.

As to banners, they all grant AoE swiftness, 2 of them grant AoE fury, and each and every one of them is a blast finisher when planted. All the while granting passive, AoE, buffs. Yeah, that sounds pretty terrible. I didn’t mean to use them as a damaging weapon, in the same way I don’t use the EG or the Medkit as damaging weapons. That doesn’t make them useless, or sub-par.

As to the Toolbelt, the point I was trying to make about our Toolbelt is that it’s a bit of a joke as a main class mechanic. Every other class in the game can take signets, which provide two distinct effects, and suddenly they ALL have the equivalent of our Toolbelt. There are so many utilities in the game that have second effects built right into them, that giving our utilities second effects through the Toolbelt isn’t at all amazing, and it certainly isn’t all that unique.

It appears to me that our utilities are balanced against the utilities of other classes like this:

Engineer utility skill + associated toolbelt skill = <class name> utility skill

Our utilities take a hit to their usefulness (not all of them; there are always exceptions) in order to factor in their associated toolbelt skill. The problem is, this fails to take into account that other classes still also have access to an additional mechanic, where our Toolbelt sits.

Our utilities+toolbelt are balanced against other classes’ utilities, leaving those other classes with an additional primary mechanic to give them an edge against us.

As I said, not all of our Toolbelt skills are inferior in this regard, and in fact I would say that our healing abilities are actually some of the best in the game thanks in large part to the additional Toolbelt skill associated with them. But many Toolbelt skills are lackluster, assuming you don’t specifically trait for Static Discharge.

If all of our Toolbelt skills were as powerful as Big ol’ Bomb, Grenade Barrage, and Toss Elixit R, they’d be worthy of being our F-mechanic. Unfortunately, we have many others that are quite lacking, like some other Toss Elixirs, and most of the skills that players combo with Static Discharge (which are quite underpowered on their own, without Static Discharge. Requiring a certain trait just to make an ability useful isn’t a great way to balance said ability.)

This is why I’ve said that our kits should become our F-mechanic. If kits didn’t take up utility slots (denying us that slot to use for other essential utilities) they would be on-par with the F-mechanics of other classes.

-Travail.

First of all, I’ll summarize what I meant again:
1) don’t compare class mechanics as a standalone aspect & don’t compare utilities as a standalone aspect; classes are balanced as a whole, not per category. When comparing, you have to compare traits, damage, usefulness, combinations, …
2) there ’s much more difference than sheer skill numbers
3) compared to kits, warrior banners are weak as weapons

Secondly,
If we had a kit on F1 and a kit on F2 (I assume it would be from a drop-down list and not stuck with default ones?, which would btw be a real hassle to do and is never going to happen), IF, then we would become OP compared to other professions.
2 kits + 3 utilities is insanely OP. They would have to balance the whole class again and do that so hard it would get a different playstyle altogether because of all the possible new combinations. Then a whole new kittenstorm of unhappy engineers would start. It’s not providing a solution, it’s creating a new problem.

-Clip (few, almost forgot to put my name at the end, would you have known it was me otherwise? :p)

Before GW2 beta started did I expect Engineers strong side to be turrets, at the moment is that probably the most useless and broken part of our class. Instead of making the kits the F abillities like someone suggested (would be to similar to Ele) would I prefear to see Turrets getting that spot and a huge buff/fix.

In one case could we have one turret that we place/explode with F1, and F2, 3 & 4 could be abillities from existing turrets. Kinda similar to the ranger (would be funny if we could find diffrent turret designs around the world too).

Another case could we have multiple turrets out at the same time, kinda similar to what we currently have (But they need to be fixed!).

Also please make it so picking up turrets reset their cooldown, as things are now will I end up hitting F to search or revive only to remove my turrets by misstake. >.<

-Are

I really like the currently setup, it’s what drew me to the class and why it’s so fun to play. It would be a terrible disappointment to see sweeping changes. I’m sure that goes for a significant amount of the players who don’t use the forums as well.

Bug squashing would be nice. For all the classes

I hope they fix the rifle. It feels much more like a low powered shot-gun to me…i really wanted a long range engineer

Clip.6845:

First of all, I’ll summarize what I meant again:
1) don’t compare class mechanics as a standalone aspect & don’t compare utilities as a standalone aspect; classes are balanced as a whole, not per category. When comparing, you have to compare traits, damage, usefulness, combinations, …
2) there ’s much more difference than sheer skill numbers
3) compared to kits, warrior banners are weak as weapons

Secondly,
If we had a kit on F1 and a kit on F2 (I assume it would be from a drop-down list and not stuck with default ones?, which would btw be a real hassle to do and is never going to happen), IF, then we would become OP compared to other professions.
2 kits + 3 utilities is insanely OP. They would have to balance the whole class again and do that so hard it would get a different playstyle altogether because of all the possible new combinations. Then a whole new kittenstorm of unhappy engineers would start. It’s not providing a solution, it’s creating a new problem.

-Clip (few, almost forgot to put my name at the end, would you have known it was me otherwise? :p)

If we had 2 kits and our primary weapon, that would be 15 attacks. Here’s how the other classes break down:

- The Elementalist has 4 attunements (and no “default weapon slots”) for a total of 20 attacks.
- Guardians have 3 Virtues as their F-mechanic. 2 weapons plus the 3 Virtues is 13 attacks.
- The Mesmer has 2 weapon slots and 4 Shatter abilities, for a total of 14 attacks.
- The Necromancer has 2 weapon slots and 4 Death Shroud attacks, for a total of 14 attacks.

You’re telling me 15 attacks would make us “insanely OP”? Come on, now. Only the Warrior and Thief are left out of this party. And it’s not like our kits, themselves, are overpowered.

Balance the whole class again? Completely different playstyle? Lots of “maybe’s” and “would be’s” in your post, without much to substantiate them. All of the current useful Engi builds (TankCat, Static Discharge, Rifle burst, HGH chugging, might stacking FT, Grenades, EIB/EG support) remain intact.

-Travail.

Clip.6845:

First of all, I’ll summarize what I meant again:
1) don’t compare class mechanics as a standalone aspect & don’t compare utilities as a standalone aspect; classes are balanced as a whole, not per category. When comparing, you have to compare traits, damage, usefulness, combinations, …
2) there ’s much more difference than sheer skill numbers
3) compared to kits, warrior banners are weak as weapons

Secondly,
If we had a kit on F1 and a kit on F2 (I assume it would be from a drop-down list and not stuck with default ones?, which would btw be a real hassle to do and is never going to happen), IF, then we would become OP compared to other professions.
2 kits + 3 utilities is insanely OP. They would have to balance the whole class again and do that so hard it would get a different playstyle altogether because of all the possible new combinations. Then a whole new kittenstorm of unhappy engineers would start. It’s not providing a solution, it’s creating a new problem.

-Clip (few, almost forgot to put my name at the end, would you have known it was me otherwise? :p)

put a CD on kit usage, then it’s not so OP at all. what about 3 kits + 3 utilities? Sounds insanely OP right? That’s pretty much an Elementalist. But we can switch to kits whenever we want! Yes, I know, but for the most part, you switch to kits to use whichever of those skills you need at that moment, then you switch back to your weapon, another kit, pretty much giving yourself a CD even when you don’t have one. I do fine with my engi just like a lot of you do, but do I feel sub-par from the get go? Yeah, I do. I don’t appreciate being the queen of versatility, getting gimped damage for having ‘versatility’ when I see an equally, if not more versatile class out damaging me, having more survivability, more group buffs, etc. The cornerstone of this class was supposed to be turrets and gadgets from what I gathered from this site before the game launched, both of which are borderline useless or have a role in an extremely niche build. I feel like all the things that are supposed to be trademarks of this class aren’t worth an elementalist’s fart, and it’s frustrating. I’ll stick it out because it is fun, but I’m not going to lie, I play my mesmer and think “so this is what a complete class feels like.” Of course, they could always delete Engineer and really kitten off me and the other 43 people that play it, which seems like how it’s going.

i would just like to point out that warrior banners, like kits, take up a whole utility slot, mimus the bonus F ability, and have a 90 second cooldown, and have to be carried everywhere, effectively reducing your ability to fight.

they are not at all as versatile as kits, and im a banner warrior, who fights for the right to banner on the warrior forums.

banners are more like turrets than kits.

Travail.7390:

Atlanis.6597:

Kits taking up utility slots would be alright IF they used our weapons stats and weren’t buggy. Take, for example, Elixir Gun. By putting this in a utility slot, we get a disengage (4), an aoe cleanse + stacking hot (5), a conal cleanse + poison + vulnerability (3), a bouncing cripple + swiftness (2), and a way to permanently apply weakness (1). That is a LOT more than any other class gets for a single utility slot.

However, the wrench in the machine is that other classes get a second weapon in addition to the three utility slots, which puts us at a disadvantage running 1 kit + 2 other. When we run two or more kits, though, I would say that we have an advantage over everyone save Elementalists (who have four different sets of abilities per weapon).

The Elementalist has the equivalent of 3 kits + 1 primary weapon at all times, without losing access to any utility slots. Necromancers can equip 2 weapons plus Death Shroud (which is essentially a strong kit) again without losing access to any of their utilities. Warrior Banners grant 5 attacks to whoever picks them up, as well as passive AoE buffs. There are weapon summons which grant 5 attacks to the user. We aren’t the only class with access to kits or kit equivalents.

And then there’s the matter of our F mechanic. Look at the Toolbelt for a moment, and consider what it actually does. It gives each of our utilities a second activated effect. Well, that’s great, but it’s not “better” than what other classes have access to without even considering their main mechanic. Every other class in the game, bar none, receives utilities with secondary activated effects.

- Signets (available to every class but ours.)
- The aforementioned Warrior Banners.
- Ranger Spirits.
- Necromancer Minions.
- Guardian Spirit Weapons.
- Mesmer Mantras (multiple uses of a single utility before placing it on cooldown.)

All of these include secondary activated abilities, just like our utilities have Toolbelt skills associated with them. Having a second activated ability associated with utilities is not unique to the Engineer, not by a long shot.

When every other class has F abilities (adrenaline, pets, shatters, etc.) in addition to these double-effect utilities, our Toolbelt starts to look pretty lackluster, doesn’t it?

Make no mistake, this class is no more versatile than any other.

-Travail.

I didnt say that they were more than any other class could get, I said that they were more than any other class could get for a utility slot. Key difference, there.

Also the toolbelt is lackluster, no doubt. Some abilities are nice but some just suck. The toolbelt has a lot of potential, but it fails to live up to it.