Guild Wars 2

i can vpn in some FORTRAN, and COBOL and transmit using a macguyver’d microwave transistor if itll make you feel more at home. all out of punch cards tho…

;)

(i started learning C from deitel!)

Define viable? Underpowered does not equate to “not viable”.

Is viable thriving in sPvP ? is Viable 1 v 5 stomping all 5 in WvW ? 1v4 ? 1v3 ? 1v2 ?

I can show you tons of video proof of several different players doing this. Is it not viable when engineers solo 10 mobs in PvE? Solo veterans ? Champions?

We have plenty of criples too. EG #2, Box of nails X2 with kit refinement, Throw wrench, Personal battering ram.

Do I think engineer needs improvement, certainly, I have a good list of changes I personally feel need improving. But your overall abuse of the word “viable” is way off base, and your comparison to the mesmer doesn’t hold water.

As far as champs go, I have posted too many videos in which I solo champs to take you seriously on that count.

thematic response:

isnt the job of an engineer to cobble together matetials to make something awesome out of nothing? real or fantasy?

so, yes, that is my point, especially since engineers likely have a higher pay grade than you…

but my real point is that the people posting videos of kittening good times on their engie are real tangible evidence that refutes the allegory and anectodal evidence that you are a kitten and not a tigger.

which, i suppose is true because…..

bouncey trouncey pouncey flouncey fun fun fun fun fun
but the most wonderful thing about tiggers is im t he only one!

The problem is that Arena net has drank their own KoolAid. They bought into their own hype and not refuse to believe that they possibly didn’t do something correctly.

Xae.7204:

The problem is that Arena net has drank their own KoolAid. They bought into their own hype and not refuse to believe that they possibly didn’t do something correctly.

i dont (always) mean to be a kitten but to break down what you just said..

i) anet drinks their own koolaid
ii) they bought into their own hype
iii) not refuse to believe
iv) they did not do something correctly

which actually says they did in fact believe they did not do something correctly, or in plain english, they are aware of their mistakes.

your double negative is a prime example of why 99.44% (yes that is ivory white hyperbole for you) of what is said on the forums get’s lost, over looked, mis-read, and poorly communicated.

did you mean to say that:

ANet is so high on their horse that they think they could not have possibly done any wrongs?

nakoda.4213:

so the small group of elite engineers who pwn kittens like fat girls on potato chips is irrelevant? sounds to me like kittening that you dont cut the proverbial mustard.

since actual rhetoric and english escape forum logic, i’ll use a different approach:

if (some players of a profession)
{
wrecks kittens;
}
then (whole profession)
{
broken == false;
}

that is (syntax be kitten , your argument that because YOU cant min/max how YOU want makes the class broken is erroneous and false brcause of the FACT that others pwn with the class. you canNOT invalidate that evidence because of democratic kittening and majority opinion.

jeff foxworthy said it best:

red necks are actually intelligent educated, and eloquent members of society, but every time a trailerpark gets kittened by a tornado, its the fat toothless housewife in a pink mumu who makeit on the news and not a doctor or civic official.

sme thing.

i’ll refer you to this
“its true that some people can play a engineer (1 or 2 builds for the most part) in the top competitive environment and succeed.
first they are a very very very very small group of people and who knows if they would play a different profession they might succeed more its anybody guess,my guess they will.
this does not mean engineers are fine!, that means in a team that is assembled with 5 very skilled player one of them can have the luxury to play a inferior profession and not in a key role.”

pl try and read and not just react with
“ohh 1/2 guys play engineers in tpvp in high ranks engineers are fine” bs .
and don`t try to add the all mighty personal bash “you cant play a engineer but i can and he can and we pwn”.
this is to belittle peoples different perception.

and coglin underpowered is not viable no way around that.
if you are underpowered in a 5 man team you bring the all team down if you could be replace with someone that is not underpowered that makes you not viable.
as for the 1vs2/3/4/5 you see lets not live in delusion we all know that any one that does that is 2/3 steps ahead of the people he fights.
one good d/d, d/p thief can smack-whack and thwack any engineers out there.
you solo 10 mobs in pve? well a warrior can solo a whole dungeon.

that still means that those 5 skilled, competitive, privileged players are better at playing a class than the majority of forum posters.

like it or not, forum chatter about anything is the vocal MINORITY not a majority. of the entire subscriber base, how many actually post on the forums? how many of those actually post regularly? how many post frequently (like ourselves)?

until videos stop appearing of engineers kittening face, and until the entire consensus is that the profession is no longer fun, there is no leg for naysaying to stand on other than “other classes out perform us”.

here are some anecdotal stats for you:

flamethrower > warrior longbow
elixers > warrior warhorn
T3 nades > EVERYONE’s range (but it costs .. SO WHAT .. ITS BETTER THAN EVERYONE!)
kits > faster swapping and more options than even a warrior
(notice the trend yet….)

I should go to the warrior forum and cry about how engies are better than us. By default that makes rogues and DD ele better than us too … oh wait, warriors already kitten about how they only get to do one thing.

the point to that is if warriors are good as Anet claims, then the forums wouldn’t be full of kittens, but they are, because this is where kittens go to mewl. Warrior’s rock, but you’ll still wade through QQ posts before getting to the good stuff. Just like the engie forum, the players who have no problem are busy playing, and they outnumber you.

forums are nothing more than an AoE of QQ, with a few nukes of truth scattered about.

you dont have to like it.

(P.S. those warriors who solo dungeons are people just like the engies who kittenyarn all over others in videos .. they are SKILLED players. You think everyone with a warrior could solo lupercus? kittenOLOL …..)

nakoda.4213:

that still means that those 5 skilled, competitive, privileged players are better at playing a class than the majority of forum posters.

like it or not, forum chatter about anything is the vocal MINORITY not a majority. of the entire subscriber base, how many actually post on the forums? how many of those actually post regularly? how many post frequently (like ourselves)?

until videos stop appearing of engineers kittening face, and until the entire consensus is that the profession is no longer fun, there is no leg for naysaying to stand on other than “other classes out perform us”.

here are some anecdotal stats for you:

flamethrower > warrior longbow
elixers > warrior warhorn
T3 nades > EVERYONE’s range (but it costs .. SO WHAT .. ITS BETTER THAN EVERYONE!)
kits > faster swapping and more options than even a warrior
(notice the trend yet….)

I should go to the warrior forum and cry about how engies are better than us. By default that makes rogues and DD ele better than us too … oh wait, warriors already kitten about how they only get to do one thing.

the point to that is if warriors are good as Anet claims, then the forums wouldn’t be full of kittens, but they are, because this is where kittens go to mewl. Warrior’s rock, but you’ll still wade through QQ posts before getting to the good stuff. Just like the engie forum, the players who have no problem are busy playing, and they outnumber you.

forums are nothing more than an AoE of QQ, with a few nukes of truth scattered about.

you dont have to like it.

(P.S. those warriors who solo dungeons are people just like the engies who kittenyarn all over others in videos .. they are SKILLED players. You think everyone with a warrior could solo lupercus? kittenOLOL …..)

The difference between a skilled engineer being able to take on 5 other people in PvP or WvW and a skilled warrior being able to solo a dungeon is that there is no way to measure the difficulty of taking on 5 people, they could all be complete scrubs that play by slamming their heads against the keyboard, while the dungeon has a very specific set difficulty that is monitored and tweaked by Anet.

The engineer that can take on 5 and win today may lose a 1v1 tomorrow. The warrior that can solo a dungeon can solo a dungeon.

Also, your weapon comparisons are a touch biased.
What factors are you comparing to say that the flamethrower is better than the longbow? Amount of burning applied? Total damage dealt? Ability to deal with multiple people? Amount of skill required to use? Number of bugged skills? Without some defined metrics, claiming that one weapon is superior or inferior to another is a very subjective matter.

Elixirs and warhorn aren’t comparable. One is a weapon that gives two support skills, balanced around being a weapon; while the other are utilities and are balanced around being utilities. To compare them is like trying to compare apples and oranges. What you should do is compare the warhorn to the engineer offhand support weapon, or perhaps the AoE support kit….oh, wait…

Grenades having longer ranger than everything is outright false. Not only are there various abilities from various classes that match the 1500 range of the grenade kit (one of them being the warrior’s kill shot), a longbow ranger can trait to have 1500 range at with a trait at master tier.

Engineers may be able to switch between kits faster than anyone else, but we are limited to 3 main weapon combinations, have no weapon swap, give up one utility skill per kit, and until recently had to deal with kits doing outright less damage than main weapons from other classes. Even after a very nice buff to our kit damage we are still lacking in areas that kits don’t cover. For instance, we have no way to deal consistent, reliable long range damage. Don’t get me wrong, I love kits, but the warrior weapon selection can deal with more situations more efficiently than an engineer’s kit selection can. The difference is that the warrior has to choose 2 situations to be able to deal with for free, but can choose no more; while the engineer chooses to give up one utility per situation to deal with, but only starts with one.

Maullus.1273:

cottage.3274:

the point is that as fun as playing engineer is, even with all the bugs,bad traits,fail mechanics,poor skill design ect,the fact (yes fact!) is we get outperform in every role in every platform the game offers by other professions.

Emphasis mine.

I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

I see a lot of hyperbole in these discussions, but I don’t see a lot of substantive evidence. Let’s turn to our good friend, modus tollens, and hear what he has to say:

• If the Engineer is inferior to all other classes, then no one will team up with Engineers for tPvP.
• Some people team up with Engineers for tPvP.
• Therefore, the Engineer is not inferior to all other classes.

This doesn’t even address the fact that popular perception and reality are not necessarily the same thing. Some people will certainly buy the hype and say, “Oh, Engi sucks, we don’t want you on our tPvP/dungeon/WvW/group-hug team.” Okie doke. No real loss; I’m always a little bit irrationally afraid that such a level of stupidity just might be contagious, so parting ways really works out best for everyone.

This forum gives such a skewed view of… well, everything…but of the Engineer in particular. Clinging to the belief that Engineers are hopelessly bargled, despite a growing body of evidence that they are not (anecdotal as well as quantifiable) is very strange.

Well here’s a fact for you. Exactly 0 accounts of Engineers being denied running dungeons occurred prior to grenades being reduced 33% and the healing zone ability on the EG being “fixed” to heal what they would call normal healing (IE not being affected by a single point of +healing on gear as with almost all of the other healing abilities of Engis). After this happened, suddenly the forums and zone chat were flooded with reports of people being denied. Still think there’s no real problem?

nakoda.4213:

yes, the game provides goals, like winning in pvp, but the entire point to an mmo is to be massively MULTI player which means that the meat, focus, impetus, whatever you want to call it, of the game is to play in groups of people, not to be a homestar.

engineers are effective and reliable in large group situations because of their ability to change, adapt, and effect change (great and small) in nearly EVERY situation the game throws at you. This is what “versatility” means. Warriors are not versatile compared to engies in ANY way because their builds actually pigeon hole them into roles.

This game is an MMO, meaning people forms into groups with various specialties and accomplish goals that cannot be done alone. People admit that the engineer is a hybrid class … average at every specialty in the game but not really great at any of them. Engineers can switch from DPS, to support, to CC by switching kits. Other MMOs have hybrid classes, and the complaints are the same, they aren’t great at anything.

The problem with GW2 and the hybrid class is the trait system. It’s just impossible to effectively trait the engineer to be a hybrid. The whole point of the trait system is to specialize your abilities. So you trait your engineer to support one of your kits effectively, and it feels like you are just wasting time using other kit’s abilities.

Part of the fun of the engineer class is switching kits. I’d like to see traits that support all kits equally.

why would you trait one kit and use another?

a 100b warrior sure as kitten cant use banners, vice versa.

you get bombs AND nades in ine spec

FT AND elixers in one spec

pistols AND rifles in one spec, if you dont like kits

also; re biased comparisons, that was the point. which is why i labelled then anecdotal.

as far as i know, ele is the ONLY profession whose traits allow for hybrid specialization.

my points still stand.

Who in the heck claims that seeing a occasional engineer in a role “proves” that they’re doing just fine in that role?

This is the internet. If you haven’t figured out by now that there’s five of everything, then there’s no hope for you, ever.

There is always going to be someone who’s out to prove that they can do something, whatever the disadvantages. There’s always going to be a person who just likes to do things their own way. There’s always going to be someone who tries to gain advantage from the fact that people don’t face competent engis in PvP because when someone gets competent, they move to a different class.

The only merit to that argument is that it distracts from the real issues others raise.

nakoda.4213:

> a 100b warrior sure as kitten cant use banners, vice versa.
> pistols AND rifles in one spec, if you dont like kits

Lol, I was taking my valuable time refuting THIS?

Psst. Banner cooldown reduction is an adept level trait. Maybe you’re thinking of a banner regen build, because THAT is the GM trait. 100b + Shout-heals are more commonly used in WvW and sPvP because they can remove conditions, but if someone wanted a banner in there they could do so easily, and indeed it would help with a longbow might-stacking build.

nakoda.4213:

My points still stand.

Yes, please. Make more arguments like this. Makes our job blindingly easy.

Days.3572:

The problem with GW2 and the hybrid class is the trait system. It’s just impossible to effectively trait the engineer to be a hybrid. The whole point of the trait system is to specialize your abilities. So you trait your engineer to support one of your kits effectively, and it feels like you are just wasting time using other kit’s abilities.

How do you figure?

30 points in Explosives allows you to be proficient with the Grenade Kit and Bomb Kit.

30 points in Firearms allows you to be proficient with the Flamethrower.

30 points in Inventions allows you to be proficient with turrets.

30 points in Alchemy allows you to be proficient with elixirs and the Elixir Gun.

30 points in Tools allows you to be proficient with the Tool Kit and gadgets.

You have 70 points, which is more than enough to fill out at least two (or even 3 with a 30/20/20 split) making yourself efficient at using all of your kits.

i.e., If I went 30/0/0/30/10 I’d be proficient with the Bomb/Grenade Kit, Elixir Gun, and my choice of elixir. Not complicated.

You’d have a point except your definition of “proficient” seems to need work.

Manticore Five.9867:

You’d have a point except your definition of “proficient” seems to need work.

Elaborate.

Meaning, for example, that deadly elixir does not take flamethrower kit from okay to strong, it takes flamethrower kit from weak to borderline useable.

Those traits are not implemented as bonuses, they are implemented as bare-minimum requirements in order to use the kit without being heavily nerfed.

As others have already said, Engineer is the class that pays cash for its “versatility” and even then doesn’t get its money’s worth.

Manticore Five.9867:

Meaning, for example, that deadly elixir does not take flamethrower kit from okay to strong, it takes flamethrower kit from weak to borderline useable.

Those traits are not implemented as bonuses, they are implemented as requirements in order to use the kit without being heavily nerfed.

As others have already said, Engineer is the class that pays cash for its “versatility” and even then doesn’t get its money’s worth.

“Borderline usable?” Why? Because I don’t do the most damage in the group? Because an Elementalist does more than me? A properly geared, tanky FT/EG Engineer withstands far more damage than a damage-spec Elementalist does, so there’s always going to be that trade-off.

I’ve never impeded my group completing a dungeon because I’m not doing “enough” damage. I have, however, been impeded completing a dungeon because DPS classes like Elementalists get killed while I’m still standing. And instead of dealing damage, curing conditions, or controlling crowds, I’m crouched over their body reviving them.

People can sit here and continue to complain about how we stack up compared to other classes. Honestly, this kind of talk only exists on message boards. I’ve never been excluded from playing in a pick-up group in a dungeon, and I’ve never felt like I was a negative influence on my party.

Quite the contrary, I think an Engineer brings plenty to a group. Having leveled other classes, there’s things I always miss out on by not playing on my Engineer.

Damage isn’t everything.

Manticore Five.9867:

nakoda.4213:

> a 100b warrior sure as kitten cant use banners, vice versa.
> pistols AND rifles in one spec, if you dont like kits

Lol, I was taking my valuable time refuting THIS?

Psst. Banner cooldown reduction is an adept level trait. Maybe you’re thinking of a banner regen build, because THAT is the GM trait. 100b + Shout-heals are more commonly used in WvW and sPvP because they can remove conditions, but if someone wanted a banner in there they could do so easily, and indeed it would help with a longbow might-stacking build.

nakoda.4213:

My points still stand.

Yes, please. Make more arguments like this. Makes our job blindingly easy.

you havent refuted anything though. technically, you dont need traits for banners or 100b, but if you trait them, they both improve greatly at the cost of not getting the other.

comparing shout/cond is just as off because warhorn specializaton is also a T2 trait.

what are you arguing? do you even know?

trait specializations are . . . specializations.

i wrote the first forum guide to banners, i know what im talking about. ive been a banner warrior since i hit 60 week 1 and dropped 5sig solo for group play. but e-peaning is pointless because it doent change the nature of specialization.

specialists are journeymen not.

of course the comparisons are applea to oranges, they are different professions. but they are still points to compare.

it seems to me like the forum community doesnt even play the samegame because the mewling here does not corroborate with experiencea in game.

(also, sorry for typos, im here on a motorola deft and the touch screeb qwerty.
is riny. )

nakoda.4213:

what are you arguing? do you even know?

That’s my line.

You are the one saying 100b means no banners. I see now that I was being overly generous by assuming you meant 100b/shout means no banners, which is almost as untrue.

And Penias, I apologize for assuming that you wanted actual damage to go with your damage-oriented kit and your damage-oriented trait. I won’t make that mistake in further discussions.

No.

I am saying 100b means weak banners, ans banners means weak 100b. What forum language do you speak? Can I google translate for you?

Further, 100nades means weak elixers, and so on. . .

nakoda.4213:

No.

I am saying 100b means weak banners, ans banners means weak 100b. What forum language do you speak? Can I google translate for you?

Well, let me help you.

100b does not weaken banners, except insofar as opportunity cost concerning stats. Although certain forum dwellers might become alarmed and confused by the need to employ logic or provide working examples when spouting off, I don’t think that google will be of any assistance to you in that regard.

Besides, were you to suddenly comprehend the near-mythical notion of opportunity cost, then we might have some logical discussion about engineer trait placement, but alas.

I’m not sure what you missed.

Banner spec is a min 30 pt assignment to be fully realized. 100b is not. However., 100b shouts requires ancillary traits for full effectiveness such as GS spec and shout heals. Whoa, wait a sec, that’s 50 points right there.

Now, nade spec is 30 points. However, FT tank needs Jugg and, IMO (whoa wait, opinion, what?) deadly mixture... 50 points.

So, kittens seem to lose their mittens no matter what.

What you don’t get is that every class has costs (Ele’s have lower costs, engies have more, sure, yes it is imbalanced between classes, but they are different classes) and that the more points any class spends, the less "versatile" they become. But, I use versatile in the way it has been used in this thread, not for its actual meaning, which has eluded this thread.

Nope. Banner REGENERATION is 30 points. If you can’t think of a use for banners beyond that trait, that’s hardly my problem.

10 points + 1 adept trait is all you need to have one banner up almost 100% of the time.

Xae.7204:

nakoda.4213:

Xae.7204:

The problem is that Arena net has drank their own KoolAid. They bought into their own hype and not refuse to believe that they possibly didn’t do something correctly.

i dont (always) mean to be a kitten but to break down what you just said..

i) anet drinks their own koolaid
ii) they bought into their own hype
iii) not refuse to believe
iv) they did not do something correctly

which actually says they did in fact believe they did not do something correctly, or in plain english, they are aware of their mistakes.

your double negative is a prime example of why 99.44% (yes that is ivory white hyperbole for you) of what is said on the forums get’s lost, over looked, mis-read, and poorly communicated.

did you mean to say that:

ANet is so high on their horse that they think they could not have possibly done any wrongs?

Not = Now.

Check your douchyness at the Door. This isn’t the Warrior forum. We have standards here.

Since the idea was clearly beyond you here is a link that will spell it out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arrogance

So your typo makes me Othello?

I always pictured myself as an Iago.

Darn.

Edit: btw, hubris is better defined in aristotle’s poetics than on Wikipedia. You should check it out. I stopped using webster’s in grade 6.

Manticore Five.9867:

Nope. Banner REGENERATION is 30 points. If you can’t think of a use for banners beyond that trait, that’s hardly my problem.

10 points + 1 adept trait is all you need to have one banner up almost 100% of the time.

Sigh. Again you read two words and not the content.

My use of "fully realized" certainly includes regen. Where is the problem?

Lets review. THIS is what you said:

> a 100b warrior sure as kitten cant use banners, vice versa.

You didn’t start talking “fully realized” until AFTER you were called out. I realize you want to cover your mistake, but corrections don’t apply backwards in time, especially if you’re not willing to admit making a mistake in the first place.

Besides, even were we to give you every rewrite in the world, you’d STILL be wrong. There’s nothing wrong with a GS/Bow build that plants banners in the fire field, except that it’s tied to one place, which is a problem with all banner builds.

Manticore Five.9867:

Lets review. THIS is what you said:

_> a 100b warrior sure as kitten cant use banners, vice versa._

You didn’t start talking "fully realized" until AFTER you were called out. I realize you want to cover your mistake, but corrections don’t apply backwards in time, especially if you’re not willing to admit making a mistake in the first place.

See, now that’s a fair rebuttal, and my own exaggeration is biting me.

But since you had to focus on opportunity costs, I followed suit.

Perma swiftness is a 10 point trait too, I still don’t see your point.

Edit: I missed your edit, but have to get some work done. Will reply when I get home.

I love it. You guys want to “claim” the engineer is broken. Yet your suggestions for “fixing” it generally have nothing to do with actual broken aspects. And you berate anyone who disagrees. I repeatedly suggest talking about actual problems or imbalances. Such as how personal battering ram and warriors kick do the same thing, only PBR has a 45s recast and kick has a 20s recast.

At least the last 2 pages (thats 100 post) have listed no specific issues or how to fix them. The closest anyone came to that was making back and forth blended, non-specific warrior comparison. If you want to make a comparison, at least have the sense to compare reasonable and factually comparable skills and traits.

All of you who “claim” the engineer is so broken that your warding other players from playing it (and you cannot sat you are not, it is in the kitten thread tittle) have done nothing but bash, attack, and berate anyone that feels the class is capable and not broken. Underpowered does not equal broken.

That’s because the apologists have been playing evade-the issue for the last few pages. Oh, and you seem not to have noticed that they haven’t been providing specifics either, but that surprises no one by this point in this discussion.

For example, I brought up the specific example of deadly mixtures not resulting in the damage-oriented kit flamethrower having decent damage. That observation was not refuted, but merely handwaved away by the apologist, claiming that he had better survivability. Changing the subject is a favorite tactic here when one’s argument is unsustainable. Had I proceeded to pin him down on engineer survivability, he would merely have changed subjects again, most likely to “versatility”, which would then be a full circle.

That is why people no longer take the apologists seriously enough to provide specifics or otherwise assume that reasoned argument will be reciprocated.

I’m more of a po-mo feminist than an apologist, but thanks for the up vote.

Manticore Five.9867:

And Penias, I apologize for assuming that you wanted actual damage to go with your damage-oriented kit and your damage-oriented trait. I won’t make that mistake in further discussions.

Well I think there-in lies the rub. Is the Flamethrower a damage-oriented kit? Compared to the Grenade Kit or Bomb Kit? No, I don’t think so. I’d say it’s fairly middle-tier in its damage, like the Tool Kit, focused more on defensive play.

So I think you’ve already missed the mark thinking anyone speccing toward the Flamethrower isn’t seeking a more balanced build. Which the Flamethrower has. Which you’ve conveniently chosen not to acknowledge what I previously stated.

And Juggernaut is not a “damage-oriented trait.” It adds damage, yes. But historically it has always been more defensive-minded, least of all in its original form.

Oh, and it’s Phineas. Either way, tone it down a notch, brohan. Your insecurity is showing.

Manticore Five.9867:

For example, I brought up the specific example of deadly mixtures not resulting in the damage-oriented kit flamethrower having decent damage. That observation was not refuted, but merely handwaved away by the apologist, claiming that he had better survivability.

Not really. We just assumed the 19 threads created since the update here claiming and discussing that the FT is now a solid kit after the update, spoke for them selves.

I will weigh your one claim against all those threads

……………….weighing…………..weighing………………weighing…………………

Okay my logic scale says there is an imbalance in recent opinion. I mean its subjective opinion as to whether or not it is or isn’t weak or solid. The issue is you actually believe you claiming it is a fact makes it so, while dismissing all of those recent threads.

This leads back to my point. I offer and example of a what I felt was a reasonable imbalance between two skills, and presented at least one fact as evidence to support that. All your doing is spewing out your opinion at us, and then trying to force feed it to us as if your opinion on it is indisputable fact.

I like how not swallowing every ounce of internet-hysteria all of a sudden makes you into an apologist.

And there you go again, you utter the words “balanced kit”, as if that somehow excuses the lack of damage. These forums should kitten out “balanced”, “versatile” and “l2p” because they’re more offensive and mask more ignorance than the other words they censor.

Yes, it has ONE control move and ONE defensive move. That doesn’t mean it’s not a damage-oriented kit that people should expect damage from. Does warrior rifle have to drop its knockback and cripple in order for people to expect it to do damage? No!

And the apologist language is mostly because if it looks like you’re referring to anyone specific, the mods gank you.

Also because it fits.

Manticore Five.9867:

And there you go again, you utter the words “balanced kit”, as if that somehow excuses the lack of damage.

Tell us how you really feel.

Manticore Five.9867:

And there you go again, you utter the words “balanced kit”, as if that somehow excuses the lack of damage.

Define lack of damage please?

By what metric are you gauging that it has bad “damage” ?

Serious question. If you feel there is a real problem, lets have a real discussion on it without broad claims. Give us a reasonable metric by which to gauge the damage value. Then present a reasonable fact or comparison to an equivalent, anything to support your position.

Offer anything beyond this “its broke because I said so” argument. I have grandchildren I can have that discussion with, from you sir, I request a more reasonable approach. Am I asking to much?

Manticore Five.9867:

coglin.1496:

Define lack of damage please?

By what metric are you gauging that it has bad “damage” ?

Um, seriously? You’re seriously going to claim the FT has good damage now? I should hope you have some backup for this crazy new claim?

Oh, I see. The tactic is simply to present enough arguments that the person gets tired of refuting them. Well, it succeeded.

Just don’t ever ask why no one ever debates you on these threads. It’s been tried. It hasn’t been reciprocated.

Problem: what your are doing is pontificating, not debating. Debate involves arguments and counter arguments. Your pontificating lacks counter argument.

Manticore Five.9867:

coglin.1496:

Define lack of damage please?

By what metric are you gauging that it has bad “damage” ?

Um, seriously? You’re seriously going to claim the FT has good damage now? I should hope you have some backup for this crazy new claim?

Oh, I see. The tactic is simply to present enough arguments that the person gets tired of refuting them. Well, it succeeded.

Just don’t ever ask why no one ever debates you on these threads. It’s been tried. It hasn’t been reciprocated.

So you have no metric or comparison to offer? That doesn’t help your perspective at all. Secondly, I never made any such claim as to state I felt the FT does good damage. I simply stated I personally feel it doesn’t do bad damage. Please do not try to put words in my mouth. It doesn’t help your argument at all.

I am curious, but what tactic are you referring to? You mean my tactic of taking a step back and politely offering you an opportunity to offer a reasonable metric to gauge it to, or a reasonable comparison?

If it is so bad, I thought you would jump at the chance to actually convince me, when I tried to offer you one. Refusing to do that kind of makes it seems like your here to troll and rage rant, rather then discuss it.

Just checked the dictionary. Pontificating is not defined as “arguments which the debater doesn’t like” and argument is not defined as “something the debater agrees with”.

Like it or not, you went from a “it doesn’t matter that I don’t do a lot of damage because I have great survivability” to a “wait! we have awesome damage and now you have to prove otherwise”. You’re obviously just changing claims until the other person gets tired and goes away, because NO ONE who’s serious takes flamethrower seriously as a damage weapon.

If you have an extraordinary claim, then YOU have the obligation to back it up.

Of course, you’re now going to provide all the high-level tPvP videos of flamethrower engies, right. Oh wait… that would be backing up your counterclaim. Can’t have that.

nakoda.4213:

why would you trait one kit and use another?

a 100b warrior sure as kitten cant use banners, vice versa.

you get bombs AND nades in ine spec

FT AND elixers in one spec

pistols AND rifles in one spec, if you dont like kits

also; re biased comparisons, that was the point. which is why i labelled then anecdotal.

as far as i know, ele is the ONLY profession whose traits allow for hybrid specialization.

my points still stand.

Not sure why no one else has responded to this, but there are quite a few flaws here.

Grenades get a whopping 50% extra damage from one 30 point trait in explosives. Without that trait, they are pretty lackluster, but with it they are good. For bombs to really shine though, they need 30 points in inventions and then another 20 or so in explosives. So engineers don’t get bombs and grenades in one spec.

Elixirs need 30 points in alchemy to really shine due to the HGH trait, a trait that spells the difference between many using or not using elixirs as their heal and/or utilities. Flamethrower needs 20 points in alchemy for deadly mixture and 30 in firearms for juggernaut. Using any (not bomb) kits at all almost demands 10 to 20 points in Tools for kit refinement, speedy kits, or both. So while you can get a flamethrower or elixir gun build that makes good use of elixirs, the points are very tight and don’t allow any wiggle room.

While pistols and rifles both benefit from the same trait line, engineers have no weapon swap, so we can’t switch from a rifle to a pistol without dropping combat.

All of that said, the biggest problem is that it really feels like the engineer skills were all balanced around having max relevant traits. Which means that if you aren’t speced specifically for something, you might as well not take it. Now that doesn’t mean there aren’t any viable builds for engineers, just that not having any wiggle room left in a build is a bigger deal for engineers than it is other classes.

Which is exactly what I was saying when I said that engies needed to trait just to be mediocre at something.

Gurt.9368:

For bombs to really shine though, they need 30 points in inventions and then another 20 or so in explosives. So engineers don’t get bombs and grenades in one spec.

I disagree with this assessment. I personally do not feel short fuse is necessary, as your main direct damage comes from the #1 skill. A pure condition build, that is a little different, it gets little damage comparatively on the #1 skill but gains greatly on the #2 and #3 skill. Not much if anything in the inventions line has much to do with shining with the bomb kit in my opinion. The skill to expand the damage radius is the most generally beneficial skill if you ask me, while the others are just fluff.

Gurt.9368:

Not sure why no one else has responded to this, but there are quite a few flaws here.

Grenades get a whopping 50% extra damage from one 30 point trait in explosives. Without that trait, they are pretty lackluster, but with it they are good. For bombs to really shine though, they need 30 points in inventions and then another 20 or so in explosives. So engineers don’t get bombs and grenades in one spec.

I don’t know if I agree that Bomb Kit needs Elixir-Infused Bombs to “really shine.” It’s a nice trait, but for 30 points in Inventions, it’s really not worth it unless you actually plan on using turrets. Personal opinion.

Gurt.9368:

Elixirs need 30 points in alchemy to really shine due to the HGH trait, a trait that spells the difference between many using or not using elixirs as their heal and/or utilities. Flamethrower needs 20 points in alchemy for deadly mixture and 30 in firearms for juggernaut. Using any (not bomb) kits at all almost demands 10 to 20 points in Tools for kit refinement, speedy kits, or both. So while you can get a flamethrower or elixir gun build that makes good use of elixirs, the points are very tight and don’t allow any wiggle room.

Err, why?

Perma Swiftness is great in the world map and in WvW, but in dungeons you can easily swap it for Kit Refinement and keep only 10 points in Tools.

If you’re going with the Flamethrower, that means you’re building into Firearms, which has Infused Precision, meaning you’ll pretty much always have Swiftness up during combat (which is way more important and useful than swapping to Med Kit).

I also think there’s plenty more wiggle room than you indicate. There are many different variants out there for FT/EG builds:

10/30/0/20/10
10/30/0/30/0
0/30/0/30/10
0/30/0/20/20

They’re all viable. I personally switch between the last two depending on what I need (30/30/10 in dungeons IMHO) and I definitely don’t feel like I’m tethered to Alchemy even then. Remember that Tools offers extra crit damage, too.

Gurt.9368:

All of that said, the biggest problem is that it really feels like the engineer skills were all balanced around having max relevant traits. Which means that if you aren’t speced specifically for something, you might as well not take it.

Though Guardian is my only other level 80 class, I have to say that I don’t feel like this is an issue exclusive to Engineers. I definitely feel like certain weapons or skills are a total waste of time to use as a Guardian unless I spec into it. Why should Engineer be different?

There’s no build that’s going to leave you feeling powerful with kits, turrets, gadgets, and elixirs all at once. That would simply be too powerful … and pointless. We only have 3 utility slots, after all.

Hi everyone,

Seeing how this thread has derailed and no longer offers any kind of constructive disussion we are closing it.

Please refrain from this behaviour in the future.
Thanks