Guild Wars 2

EDIT- yeah…another patch another nerf across the board….we need to just stop guys…stop talking about wanting buffs, let’s just fold and stick with what we have before we get screwed again

Okay guys…let’s just ALL stop complaining about grenade nerfs, bugs, flamethrowers, random elixers, etc. etc. etc.

Cause I honestly think that the more we complain, the worse it’s gonna get. Whenever it seems like we have a blessing, it gets nerfed.

We need to keep our cool and just keep our lids shut for a while and ACTUALLY hope ArenaNet doens’t pay us anymore attention.

Sure you you might say, “They don’t pay us any attention right now!” Wrong, every time they pay attention to us, we get some minor fixes, then some major nerfs.

Let’s just keep what we got, before they nerf us anymore into oblivious.

And while we’re at it, LET’S STOP TALKING ABOUT NEW BUILDS, cause I’m HONEST to god afraid as heck that ONE DAY, ArenaNet is actually going to grace us with their fine presence and decide its time to nerf the new builds too.

I’m being serious here guys, let’s just lay low and quiet for a while and hope we survive the next update.

They nerf engis before they really speak up as well btw. In any case I don’t think ^ is needed.

We had a moderator come in here to lock the “lets talk to ANet thread” so its a good sign of things to come don’t worry.

I really hate this logic. One of the worst ways to act.

“So what will you do when you hear a volcano erupting? That’s right. Duck and cover.”

I disagree, emphatically. The assumption here is that the Engineer class is being neglected, or nerfed, or otherwise intentionally mishandled as some kind of punitive measure due to the behavior of (the small group on the forums that represents) the engineer population.

That’s highly, highly unlikely.

What’s more likely is that the Engineer is aligned, or being aligned, with a design philosophy that
1) some players do not find enjoyable, and
2) is contrary to what the engineer was initially described as, and
3) is very much an anomaly when compared to the other seven classes. (That is, engineers work harder for less because “this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage.”

ANet is just a bunch of people that want this game to succeed. It follows that they want players to be challenged, to have fun, and to have a wide variety of activities they can engage in. In other words, we, the players, and ANet are on the same team. However, we can, and will, disagree about some things, and to hold the belief that because they’re the developers they are always right is… well, short-sighted, to say the least. (See the case of The People vs. Jar Jar Binks if you disagree.)

If ANet is happy—aside from the bugs—with where the Engineer is, we need to let them know that we disagree. Yes, we’re just a small chunk of the engineer population, but that’s called a “sample.” It’s not a perfect one, but it’s not one that should be casually dismissed. An explanation, at least, might go a long way towards assuaging our concerns. I think most folks just want a little communication so we can better understand what’s going on.

Maullus.1273:

I disagree, emphatically. The assumption here is that the Engineer class is being neglected, or nerfed, or otherwise intentionally mishandled as some kind of punitive measure due to the behavior of (the small group on the forums that represents) the engineer population.

That’s highly, highly unlikely.

What’s more likely is that the Engineer is aligned, or being aligned, with a design philosophy that
1) some players do not find enjoyable, and
2) is contrary to what the engineer was initially described as, and
3) is very much an anomaly when compared to the other seven classes. (That is, engineers work harder for less because “this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage.”

ANet is just a bunch of people that want this game to succeed. It follows that they want players to be challenged, to have fun, and to have a wide variety of activities they can engage in. In other words, we, the players, and ANet are on the same team. However, we can, and will, disagree about some things, and to hold the belief that because they’re the developers they are always right is… well, short-sighted, to say the least. (See the case of The People vs. Jar Jar Binks if you disagree.)

If ANet is happy—aside from the bugs—with where the Engineer is, we need to let them know that we disagree. Yes, we’re just a small chunk of the engineer population, but that’s called a “sample.” It’s not a perfect one, but it’s not one that should be casually dismissed. An explanation, at least, might go a long way towards assuaging our concerns. I think most folks just want a little communication so we can better understand what’s going on.

This ^^

I disagree with everything they’ve done to this class so far. The tiny damage from sigils do not make this class anywhere near op. The damage output of this class was never on par with other classes so how could they justify nerfing it when we can’t kill anything in three hits like other classes with similar builds and gear. None of the problems we face that breaks many of our “versatile” builds for this class have been addressed over the first four months when other classes have been talked to, and in some cases have had their bugs instafixed within the same day no less.

Of course people are going to be upset OP, we’re tired of these problems. It’s not like we’ve actually had much communication on anything prior and there’s definitely no a PTR to see how well or how poor a design decision works across the board. Talking about it in the forums is hardly the cause of these issues and they won’t go away by being silent.

nofo.8469:

We had a moderator come in here to lock the “lets talk to ANet thread” so its a good sign of things to come don’t worry.

Wow, that’s a disturbingly clear sign. The thread itself hadn’t even degenerated into name calling.

It reads to me you’re (the OP) being sarcastic. It’s a little sad that status quo leads to us making jokes about every fix/patch nerfing us. Morbid humor sounds more like a Necromancer’s thing…

WithoutAssumption.7936:

nofo.8469:

We had a moderator come in here to lock the “lets talk to ANet thread” so its a good sign of things to come don’t worry.

Wow, that’s a disturbingly clear sign. The thread itself hadn’t even degenerated into name calling.

Said moderator did indicate that they were going to pass along our concerns to the staff, for what it’s worth.

Not much, in my opinion, but still.

If people don’t let anyone know something is broken and they don’t discuss why it’s broken, then it hurts the process designed to fix it.

And Anet don’t talk to us about it because it wont do any good. All over-communicating ever does is make players angrier. Talking to angry players won’t make the developers fix anything faster or change their minds, nor does it make angry players suddenly better understand the situation, realize the error of their thinking and inspire them to just “get good.”

If I was Anet I wouldn’t talk to you guys either, even if I was working on fixing everything being complained about.

There’s over-communicating, and then there’s talking at all. They’ve said…three things, seems to be the popular number, on this particular board.

I don’t think anybody’s asking them to let us know every step of every process ever forever, but just “Yo, how about you guys check in once in a while, let us know you actually look at this board at all?”

Then when they say yes and nothing happens, people get angry thinking they just don’t get it or they’re lying as opposed to them not knowing/indifference.

It’s not much of an improvement to be honest

But it is an improvement. If they say “Yes, we’re fixing that,” and nothing happens, of course, I don’t know why people wouldn’t think there was something up with that – unless they said “Yes, we’re working on it. Probably won’t be ready for a patch or two, but we are aware of the problem and trying to fix it.” Then it’d make sense.

I have ZERO hope for any fixes for Engineer. We work Ten times as hard as the other classes, with half(or more!) our abilities bugged to hell and back. ANet is like Dr. Frankenstein, and the Engineer is it’s Monster. It doesn’t know what to do with it, as it’s just thrown together with bits and pieces of ideas, is what it feels like.

I doubt they will ever fix this class, folks. Why? Because of the OP potential. We, the players are ‘highly versatile’, not the class. We are the versatility of the class because we have to WORK AROUND ALL THE BUGS. Don’t you love it when you Drink Elixir B, and there is little to no effect?

I’m usually an upbeat guy. I can find the silver lining in almost anything. It’s just sad that every patch, EVERY PATCH, seems to move the Engineer closer and closer to the endangered species list. Heck, there are people who won’t run Dungeons with Engineers. To quote a friend: “No offense buddy. But Engies are worthless.”

I apologize if this seems like a ‘whine’. I don’t mean it to be. It’s just…frustrating…when you have all these cool toys that barely function, and you can’t return them to the store because the manager has already closed shop and moved to another country.

Isslair.4908:

I really hate this logic. One of the worst ways to act.

“So what will you do when you hear a volcano erupting? That’s right. Duck and cover.”

What ARE you supposed to do then when a volcano is erupting….I would run OR Duck and Cover….not much else you can do really.

All I’m saying is we’ve tried being vocal in polite ways, and have had our opinions ignored, or taken the wrong way and be handed a double edged sword (ie-30% grenade nerf for Sigils)

Along with other things, I feel like we should just take what we have for now and tough it out and hope ArenaNet doesn’t look at us for a bit. Cause it seems like everytime they do disaster strikes us.

WithoutAssumption.7936:

nofo.8469:

We had a moderator come in here to lock the “lets talk to ANet thread” so its a good sign of things to come don’t worry.

Wow, that’s a disturbingly clear sign. The thread itself hadn’t even degenerated into name calling.

It reads to me you’re (the OP) being sarcastic. It’s a little sad that status quo leads to us making jokes about every fix/patch nerfing us. Morbid humor sounds more like a Necromancer’s thing…

I thought I was being sarcastic while I was writing this…then I realized there’s a bit of truth to it.

And let’s say we keep on being vocal about our issues and bugs. Based on how ArenaNet seems to “fix” and “buff” Engineers…this is what might happen.

Weapon Stats going over to Kits? Sure, but all Kits now do 50% less damage.

No more random Effects on Elixers? Sure, but Elixers only last 5 seconds now all across the board.

You know that Lightning Build you guys like alot? Well all Toolbelt skills now have 1 minute CDs.

Tankcat Build? That looks awesome! Engineers now can only wear Light Armor now though.

Dual Shields? Mace? OKAY! But you lose 50% movespeed, that makes sense right?

Turrets with more HP? Sure why not, but Turrets do 30% less dmg!

You want Turrets to follow you? Sounds reasonable, but when you have Turrets out you move 30% slower!

Flamethower not miss anymore? We’ve been meaning to fix that, but the range on it is gonna be shortened by 75% okay. But don’t worry! we’ll give you 10% dmg increase!

All joking aside…we still have viable builds right now, let’s not ruin that by getting the attention of Anet yeah? Cause we got their attention on the Grenades…and look where THAT got us…

Your strategy of avoiding attention in hopes of not getting worse is a sad one. When you’re dying of cancer you don’t shut yourself up in your house to start feeling better, you go talk to a doctor and have the two of you figure out the best course of treatment. We suck in PvE, our WvW capability is limited, and we’re mid-tier at most in sPvP. That’s not at all the position I want to be in when I sit down and shut up as an Engineer.

Nothing good has ever come out of keeping silent. If there is a problem, speak up on it.

That doesn’t mean whine about it, just bring up the topic and give some valid reasons on why that is a problem. If enough people come to the same conclusion and start a topic on it then there is a better chance of it getting fixed than just staying silent.

We ARE dying of cancer, and we went to Dr. Anet, and Dr. Anet nodded appropriately at all our complaints, then gave us a Sugar Pill with JUST a teensy bit of Rat Poison lacing it and told us everything is gonna be fine and pushed us out the door. (grenade spd nerf when we complained about everything else like Flamethrower, dmg, etc.)

We found out about the Rat Poison and went back, and asked what’s up, why try to poison us when we’re at our weakest? And Dr. Anet chuckled and said, “My bad,” and this time gave us some Advil laced with crack. (Giving us Sigils and 30% nerf to grenades)

So of course we discovered this too, and decided to write down a list of issues with our cancer ridden body and went back to Dr. Anet.

Dr. Anet took a good long look at the list, and said, “I’ll keep this in mind” Then tossed the list into his trashbin. He then goes to his little room in the back and starts digging for his “medicine”

But you guys are right, we should be more optimistic, 3rd time’s the charm yes?

okay, that last joke was a bit to much, but let’s sit tight and see how January’s patch goes yeah?

If you guys are right, then hell yes I’m down for that, if we get some more nerfs covered up by some “buffs” I’m just gonna say we go back home and tough out the cancer and figure out our own way around it.

We’re a versatile lot and hardy enough to brave the worst of it right? Whatever doesn’t kill you only makes you stronger, look at Lance Armstrong!

like mcgyver, respond to everything w kindness

The devs have been pretty quiet about everything for the last week or so here…seems they are taking some time off over Christmas? I won’t begrudge them that.

Anet knows engineers aren’t desired in high-level fractals or paid tournaments. They are also aware of the novel-length list of bugs, but I don’t want them to fix everything poorly tomorrow. Let’s not forget that engineers were legitimately overpowered until Anet pushed a quick fix about a week after launch…

Penguin.5197:

Nothing good has ever come out of keeping silent. If there is a problem, speak up on it.

That doesn’t mean whine about it, just bring up the topic and give some valid reasons on why that is a problem. If enough people come to the same conclusion and start a topic on it then there is a better chance of it getting fixed than just staying silent.

This^^^^

necros been complaining since this game came out and look how much they have done for necro :P not alot at all… nothing really important has been done.. x.x lol

Lordryux.9785:

necros been complaining since this game came out and look how much they have done for necro :P not alot at all… nothing really important has been done.. x.x lol

They did the right thing, at least they didn’t get beaten to death with the nerf bat for insinuating their class was a tiny bit buggy.

How about this, we keep on voicing our concerns and opinions like we have in the past and see how things go by next update.

If we get our much needed buffs and fixes, then I’ll shut my trap, you guys were right, and we’re all happy cause we all win.

But if we get nerfed again with some supposed “buffs” I say we honestly just shut up.

yea well i mean the important bugs that really need fixing and minion AI definitly asap plz i wanna play a necro but i like the idea of a minion master above all lol. running around with my slaves ;D

The squeaky wheel gets the oil.

I recently dinged 80 on my engy, and the bugs are driving me bonkers… dunno if I will even continue playing.

Lordryux.9785:

yea well i mean the important bugs that really need fixing and minion AI definitly asap plz i wanna play a necro but i like the idea of a minion master above all lol. running around with my slaves ;D

shh they coming for you next

I rolled a warrior since they always get buffed every patch, despite being able to -solo Arah and it’s bosses- (note how recent the date is by the way. lol hey guys lets buff warriors again). Pretty hilarious killing mobs of enemies 6 levels higher than me. TBH though, I am actually glad I played Engineer, it taught me to be pro as hell at this game. I’ve talked to my guildees, many of whom play warrior. Most of them do little more than stand there and swing with the occassional trick or two. Same goes for youtube videos of “master builds” being demonstrated.

Do you have any idea how crazy things get when you play a Warrior, like an Engineer? Wiping out multiple veteran mobs with over half hp? Did you know they get the effect of healing turret, all the time, 24/7 with healing signet? And it stacks with other forms of regen? If they get the adrenaline heal trait, they get 2x healing turret pretty much whenever they’re in combat, automatically. For free. No cardboard turret required.

Oh and they have higher hp. And toughness. And better might stacking. And buffs. And dps of course. Warriors get weapon stats. Warriors get signets. Warriors get the best armor and gear in the game. Come up with a good attack pattern for warrior that makes copious use of weapon swapping and watch everything explode. There’s lots of different tricks. Axe/Axe and Great Sword? A clever player can set it up so that if they’re not using ultra high dps attacks like Whirling Axe or Hundred Blades, they’re combining Whirlwind Attack and Charge to basically teleport behind the enemy, which is hilarious because they have multiple forms of regen going off at the same time, so it’s like a free heal that does 4,000 damage or more.

I especially am amused when people who have only tried Warrior/Guardian try to say that Engineers are just whining cause they don’t know how to play our class, when most of us can play THEIR class better than they can.

Engineers are great characters to learn the game on, but only because they’re so gimped it’s a fractalin’ joke.

Lol , this is really funny you know.

In other forums the baddies come in and QQ about how OP the skill X or profession Y is, and in the engieers forum the baddies come and QQ about their own skills….

Engineer is freaking awesome, of course only in the hands of a skilled player.
The engineer is even close to OP in certain situations IF you are willing to min-max them !

This lies in the ability of the class to adapt so well , this is something that many other “OP” classes are missing.

They only can dish out dmg, perhaps little support but thats it …

And you know what the best things is about all this, Anet won’t listen because they actually play their own game, and they know very well if someting is in line or needs a slight buff / nurf

meh to be honest I don’t have a problem playing as an engineer

right now he is around lvl 30 with a flamethrower,grenades,and the purple elixer [can’t remember the name XD] and he is pretty decent.

Sure he can’t really beat sentries in WvW or other players in duels but he is good at crowd control with poison grenades to ward off people and skill 1 in flamethrower to cause burning damage.

Even though he dies quickly I do my best :P

lvis.3824:

Lol , this is really funny you know.

I agree. It is funny when a thief—a thief--comes into the engineer forum and tells us our class is “freaking awesome.”

Here’s another good one:

Ivis.3824

The classes are fairly balanced ( aside certain bunker speccs )

So, a thief walks into a bar and says, “Everyone is fine except the guys I can’t shred.”

Ivis.3824

Engineer is freaking awesome, of course only in the hands of a skilled player. The engineer is even close to OP in certain situations IF you are willing to min-max them !

Please, elaborate. I’m not being glib, I would genuinely like to see people substantiate claims like this. Awesome in? PvE? WvW? sPvP? tPvP?

Ivis.3824

This lies in the ability of the class to adapt so well , this is something that many other “OP” classes are missing.

Adapt to what? And how? This goes back to the “versatility” we supposedly have—the versatility that we’re taxed for, while elementalists, identified as the “kings of versatility” face no such restrictions—that I’m still not entirely clear on. I can run some kits, and yea, that gives me a wide array of skills… that doesn’t translate to versatility, especially when many of those skills are either bugged or weak unless traited for. That’s the main thing: all this talk about versatility when, to effectively perform any function, we have to trait and gear for it. In other words, specialize. Superficial versatility vs. High-performance specialization? I don’t think anyone would take that deal, knowing they’d always be out-performed by a specialist.

lvis.3824:

Lol , this is really funny you know.

In other forums the baddies come in and QQ about how OP the skill X or profession Y is, and in the engieers forum the baddies come and QQ about their own skills….

Engineer is freaking awesome, of course only in the hands of a skilled player.
The engineer is even close to OP in certain situations IF you are willing to min-max them !

This lies in the ability of the class to adapt so well , this is something that many other “OP” classes are missing.

They only can dish out dmg, perhaps little support but thats it …

And you know what the best things is about all this, Anet won’t listen because they actually play their own game, and they know very well if someting is in line or needs a slight buff / nurf

The ability of classes to adapt so well? Kind of like a warrior can adapt to have banners that have vastly better range, staying power (huge staying power) and effectiveness compared to engineer buffs? Maybe you were you referring to the engineer’s ability to heal if they trait and gear specifically for that, which is utterly outclassed by the warriors infinite permanent regen?

Maybe you meant engi’s ability to inflict bleed with on crit or with explosives when we spend about 50 trait points, you know, the thing swords have as an innate ability on swords’ #1 attack at the start of the game, without crits and the warriors, if they trait for it, also get a high chance to inflict bleed on crits (oh yeah, they have better versions of our few worth while engi traits btw), combined with their ability to get up to 70-90% crit, without barely having to sacrifice anything what so ever?

Maybe he meant tanking. Kind of like how warriors can have double regen, bonus revival power and defense, high powered defensive buffs and oh yeah, a skill that makes them temporarily invulnerable for key tanker jobs like reviving allies? How about all those weakness attacks from mace that make the enemy do half damage? How about those hmmn?

If you don’t know what the heck you’re talking about, please be so kind as to shut your trap. You make up this crap without citing a single example (like I cited several) because you actually have no idea how to play this game yourself. All you have to do is try leveling a high tier class like warrior or maybe thief to about lvl 15-25, then try the same on an engineer and you will understand EXACTLY what I’m referring to.

Even at the starter levels the difference is very, very, very, clear. This trend continues ALL the way up to and beyond 80. Once you pass lvl 21 on a warrior and get that first set of adept tier max trait abilities, it gets even more absurd, but even that’s not needed to demonstrate my point. However, anyone with multiple high level character that include Engineer (like me), can see the very, very, very, VERY, obvious difference.

If you don’t think so, you’ve never played engineer for any length of time or you do know better but you’re an obvious troll, so please stop talking out your bum. Your cries of Aquaman being just as awesome as Superman and Wonder Woman because he’s really op in certain situations is just freaking stupid. It’s common knowledge that this isn’t the case, so kindly stop trying to BS your way into pretending your some type of “pro-tier player” that understands the devs grand vision, simply because you like to pretend engineers aren’t gimped. You’re not.

That by the way, is the truth of Engineer versatility. Our versatility is we can all be different versions of Aquaman, in that we are only good at a single thing unless we utterly respec and utterly lackluster and underwhelming otherwise. If this weren’t the case, people wouldn’t be kicking engis out of fractal parties with commentary ala “sorry bro, engineers are useless” before the dungeon even starts, regardless of how skilled you might be, now would they?

since the common vote is for us to not lay down, why dont you guys take a look at this suggestion I came up with

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Suggestion-Give-us-F7-F9-Toolbelt-Slots/first#post1124701

Engineers will be fixed soon (by 2015). So quit complaining and L2P (next year).

(Sorry, I saw a thread degrading to engineers and realized that it didn’t have an obligatory L2P post. Fixed it.)

This is it boys and gals, 28th is gonna be upon us soon, we’ll see if we get a buff or not after all our whining and groveling.

NOT that I have much hope as I didn’t hear Engineer’s mentioned at all during the livestream.

Why would there be a buff? As far as I understand they are nerfing AoE in general, not just for Engis.

They’re not nerfing AoE YET. The part of the stream I watched they said they’re still collecting data and this was a long term thing. If they’re still collecting data, and playing with ideas on how to do it, that means they aren’t even anywhere near testing an AoE damage reduction.

For THIS patch, Engineer might get buffed or at least not messed with.

As for the AoE thing, you can’t really consider it a class nerf if it’s going to happen to every class. They also said that they’re going to buff classes with low single target damage. I’m pretty sure that’s us, so personally I’d rather be HAPPY about that worry about an AoE damage jack that’s going to happen to everyone across the board.

They nerf everything except Warrior and Thief. I dont know how is the team responsible for that but i know that they dont even play GW2. But i know one thing, an underpowered engineer can take down with the correct build an overpowered thief or warrior. So Anet mods and adms and devs and everyone out there i think you should learn with other games how to balance classes.

Knox.3748:

They nerf everything except Warrior and Thief. I dont know how is the team responsible for that but i know that they dont even play GW2. But i know one thing, an underpowered engineer can take down with the correct build an overpowered thief or warrior. So Anet mods and adms and devs and everyone out there i think you should learn with other games how to balance classes.

So you’re saying Engi beats War/Thief, but they should nerf War/Thief? That’s the exact opposite of balance.

Nop, i say a good engi beats a bad Warrior/Thief. And i was being ironic…

the title says “stop complaining” and then the OP says “stop posting new builds”.

Like anet can’t figure them out with 30sec of datamining anyway….

FiftyTwoBears.5482:

And let’s say we keep on being vocal about our issues and bugs. Based on how ArenaNet seems to “fix” and “buff” Engineers…this is what might happen.

Weapon Stats going over to Kits? Sure, but all Kits now do 50% less damage.

So um… we got the weapon stats patch. Did it nerf the damage on them? I’m downloading, I still don’t know.

Yes, Kits now drain HP to do dmg

oh no, my bad, that’s still the other guy kitten your face

there was no nerf to the kit, praise the Jebus

Zonzai.2341:

FiftyTwoBears.5482:

And let’s say we keep on being vocal about our issues and bugs. Based on how ArenaNet seems to “fix” and “buff” Engineers…this is what might happen.

Weapon Stats going over to Kits? Sure, but all Kits now do 50% less damage.

So um… we got the weapon stats patch. Did it nerf the damage on them? I’m downloading, I still don’t know.

Nope! A pretty significant PvE buff. Kits’ base damage is still lower than an exotic weapon, but now they get the extra stats from your weapon set. I don’t really PvE much, but it seems like this is pretty much a buff with no drawback.

Of course, all of this is a non-issue for PvP.

Thanks for the replies. It’s good news after all!

so…..just saying….I think I was right all along…we need to stop talking…the more we talk the bigger the hole we dig

I think the opposite. We need to stop mentioning the good things that we have, in hopes that no one will see or know the damage that we’re doing.