Guild Wars 2

lately i feel like the Cleansing formulat 409 and the med kit ’s #4 should be changed so they removed 2-3 conditions per elixir and 1 per tool kit elixir. as i stands i feel its worthless when fighting condition builds wich can stack up to 4 conditions at a time over and over.

Swap in elixir C then?

Griaumedis.7236:

Swap in elixir C then?

thats precisely my problem other classes slap 10-20 conditions as soon as i remove them and trust me thats extremely often as i run an elixir build and even carry the healing turret sometimes for the overcharge. 1 condition per elixir doesnt cut it when your opponent slaps 3-5 conditions almost per second.

Get speedy kits traits on… elixir gun adds 2 condition removal and flame thrower 1 just by switching to the kit ( it has no casting time as well ).. engi have the most condition removals

google.3709:

Get speedy kits traits on… elixir gun adds 2 condition removal and flame thrower 1 just by switching to the kit ( it has no casting time as well ).. engi have the most condition removals

*Kit Refinement

Agree, kit refinement is better vs conditions than 409. The simple fact is that unless you are literally 4 pots in your utilities, you’re going to get more long-term removal with the 1 per 10 seconds from elixir gun or flamethrower.

We have less condition removal (possible to fit into reasonable builds) than most professions except warrior, however we have excellent control over our condition removal. A ranger running Empathic Bond gets a full condition cleanse every 10 seconds, i.e. the best condition removal in the game—and yet they can’t insta-cleanse an immoblize like we can just by swapping to flamethrower.

The key is to remove only the really dangerous conditions. For example, wait for a really ugly stack of bleeds and then remove, or let a couple conditions wear off and then get rid of the pesky poison that was underneath everything.

I think 409 is fine the way it is, the other condi removal options though could use a two/three wipe instead. I completely agree that our choice beyond 409 is really lacking.

With 409 though I would argue even though it’s only a single condi removed and it can’t be instant, it’s one of the best condi removal options in the game. Seriously, few classes have ~7-9 single condi wipes available to them. It’s really, really good.

The problem with 409 is that half of those 7-9 single condi wipes (wipe isn’t really the right word to use) need to be aimed, which can mean that you can miss the AOE and not remove the condition.

If they make it like HGH then the condi removal of 409 would be more potent. I don’t mind the thrown elixirs removing only one condition. I just want 409 to be a little more powerful.

Hate to be mean but if you are missing yourself constantly with thrown elixirs that really is a more learn to play than anything else. With 409 conditions just should not bother you, of course you need to know when to remove one and when to leave it. It’s about micro managing all aspects of your character.

A random thought for sure, but consider going for maxed out vitality in your gear, with 30 points into Alchemy and picking up Automated Response. In addition, Elixir S can help but if you have to bring team utility, Elixir R is a good option. If Automated Response can’t deal with the influx of condition damage – assuming you steer clear of direct damage – then you can use S to escape (along with the thrown) or R at your feet to revive yourself. Tossed R also cures conditions. The consideration here to make is maintaining mobility; if you aren’t standing in a field or well, 409 is oftentimes sufficient. Elixir C removes multiple conditions at once, but I personally try to time my tossed H and B for removing single conditions like Immobilize, Cripple and Blind while sparing C for removing mass damage (Confusion/Bleed stacks/Poison) when I use it.

If I understood your post correctly, you are running elixirs anyway, so maybe the above would be something to consider.

You can miss yourself with HGH just as much as you can miss yourself with 409. You still need to hit yourself to apply the HGH. Or at least, I’m pretty sure. It’s actually pretty difficult to miss yourself with a thrown elixir after months of practice though.

I mean I think there is a valid complaint about some of the other condi removals we have, but 409 isn’t one of them. It’s one of the strongest condi removal options in the entire game. I mean, the Tool Kit heal should probably cure 2 conditions, Toss Elixir C should probably convert 2 conditions, Elixir C should probably be instant cast, and Automated Response really needs to cleanse all conditions when it’s activated. But 409 is one of the best single sources of condi-removal anyone could have access to.

The silly thing is though, I do think 409 needs a boost, but only because I think thrown elixirs should be capable of healing support and placing that in additional traits would make it difficult for a support engi to pick up them all. Basically I think it needs to give a small splash heal, but this idea was rather unpopular in the past and may likely still be unpopular.

What?

409 is a really good condition remover. I don’t see how you can want more then that.

Conditions aren’t supose to be removed right away. If it was like that, condition specced class would be useless.

Sure you can remove condition, but you’ll always have some damaging you anyway.

I use a build that only have one condition removal (med kit), and I don’t have much issue with condition heavy class.

Yes that’s important to realize as well, is that conditions only mitigate conditions they do not solve them completely. Or else you’d have anyone who deals damage with condis almost completely negated.

Rezzet.3614:

lately i feel like the Cleansing formulat 409 and the med kit ’s #4 should be changed so they removed 2-3 conditions per elixir and 1 per tool kit elixir. as i stands i feel its worthless when fighting condition builds wich can stack up to 4 conditions at a time over and over.

I’m not going to lie bud, but I have no idea why you’re not running elixir C if you traiting that far into alchemy. If you’re going for HGH elixir C has a pretty short cooldown so it should be on the skill bar just for the might stacking.

Again I’d need to know what your build is to make a better judgement. Personally have you thought about going medkit if your having issues with condition damage?

Again I run elixir C and I never feel like I’m suffering to conditions and that’s in a T/Pr/C build.

The problem is that with 409 you’re constantly attempting to cleanse something at the speed of application of most classes; since you’re throwing/drinking elixirs at the same speed (or slower in most cases for true condi builds) you’re gonna end up with no cleanses and just as many conditions.

At the end of the day it comes down to experience. with an HgH build we’re one of the strongest self-cleansers in the game. All ya gotta do is just line of sight or retreat out of range and cleanse a few important conditions off.

Other than that, throw elixir R up the tools tree for the reset is pretty nice cuz it cleanses 6 over the duration of just one throw (that’s 12 with 409). The med-kit and healing turret are both sub-par in their handling of condis, especially the healing turret.

This is a lot of the problem in build variety IMO. Engis can be EXTREMELY weak to condis, almost moreso than any other class in the game. 409 is our only real viable option because of HGH.

Ostricheggs.3742:

The problem is that with 409 you’re constantly attempting to cleanse something at the speed of application of most classes; since you’re throwing/drinking elixirs at the same speed (or slower in most cases for true condi builds) you’re gonna end up with no cleanses and just as many conditions.

At the end of the day it comes down to experience. with an HgH build we’re one of the strongest self-cleansers in the game. All ya gotta do is just line of sight or retreat out of range and cleanse a few important conditions off.

Other than that, throw elixir R up the tools tree for the reset is pretty nice cuz it cleanses 6 over the duration of just one throw (that’s 12 with 409). The med-kit and healing turret are both sub-par in their handling of condis, especially the healing turret.

This is a lot of the problem in build variety IMO. Engis can be EXTREMELY weak to condis, almost moreso than any other class in the game. 409 is our only real viable option because of HGH.

Elixir R only gives endurance refill and cleans only 1 condition at a time like all elixirs with 409 wich is whats making the trait near useless lately?

Goloith.6349:

Rezzet.3614:

lately i feel like the Cleansing formulat 409 and the med kit ’s #4 should be changed so they removed 2-3 conditions per elixir and 1 per tool kit elixir. as i stands i feel its worthless when fighting condition builds wich can stack up to 4 conditions at a time over and over.

I’m not going to lie bud, but I have no idea why you’re not running elixir C if you traiting that far into alchemy. If you’re going for HGH elixir C has a pretty short cooldown so it should be on the skill bar just for the might stacking.

Again I’d need to know what your build is to make a better judgement. Personally have you thought about going medkit if your having issues with condition damage?

Again I run elixir C and I never feel like I’m suffering to conditions and that’s in a T/Pr/C build.

i never said i wasnt running Elixir C its a must have.Medkit only clears 1 condition too 409 elixirs clear 1 condition each wich seems like a lot but its not when classes are able to slap 4+ conditions at a time and start stacking them just as fast.

google.3709:

Get speedy kits traits on… elixir gun adds 2 condition removal and flame thrower 1 just by switching to the kit ( it has no casting time as well ).. engi have the most condition removals

i think the projectile finishers dont work on the player shooting but rather on those who are in the projectile’s trajectory also just because a class has the most removals doesnt necesarily mean its the most effective

for example a player with 8 1 condition removers will be outdone by a player with 3 all condition removals specially if they have less cooldowns. also the condition removals are the opposite of smart they are all like: “oh you have a 20 bleed stack here lemme remove your weakness or cripple wich has 1s left anyway” .

@Rezzet

I don’t think he meant the projectile finishers, but the SE itself.

Rezzet.3614:

google.3709:

Get speedy kits traits on… elixir gun adds 2 condition removal and flame thrower 1 just by switching to the kit ( it has no casting time as well ).. engi have the most condition removals

i think the projectile finishers dont work on the player shooting but rather on those who are in the projectile’s trajectory also just because a class has the most removals doesnt necesarily mean its the most effective

for example a player with 8 1 condition removers will be outdone by a player with 3 all condition removals specially if they have less cooldowns. also the condition removals are the opposite of smart they are all like: “oh you have a 20 bleed stack here lemme remove your weakness or cripple wich has 1s left anyway” .

Single condition removals always cleanse the last condition applied (or last stack updated). So very often a smart condition player will “cover” the conditions he’s putting on you by stopping his bleed attacks after a bit and using a cripple or chill or vulnerability, so that it will be harder for you to remove them.

The key is to not blow your condition removal cooldowns at bad times. Either be fast and get rid of bleeds before they stack up and get covered, or wait a second for that cripple to run out and then cleanse.

i personally deal with condition builds by overpowering them with more conditions and in most cases that works fantastically. well combined with 409. (just blind/Dodge the necro transfers…)

trap rangers can be lame. with theiry broken empathi bond tho…

Rezzet.3614:

Ostricheggs.3742:

The problem is that with 409 you’re constantly attempting to cleanse something at the speed of application of most classes; since you’re throwing/drinking elixirs at the same speed (or slower in most cases for true condi builds) you’re gonna end up with no cleanses and just as many conditions.

At the end of the day it comes down to experience. with an HgH build we’re one of the strongest self-cleansers in the game. All ya gotta do is just line of sight or retreat out of range and cleanse a few important conditions off.

Other than that, throw elixir R up the tools tree for the reset is pretty nice cuz it cleanses 6 over the duration of just one throw (that’s 12 with 409). The med-kit and healing turret are both sub-par in their handling of condis, especially the healing turret.

This is a lot of the problem in build variety IMO. Engis can be EXTREMELY weak to condis, almost moreso than any other class in the game. 409 is our only real viable option because of HGH.

Elixir R only gives endurance refill and cleans only 1 condition at a time like all elixirs with 409 wich is whats making the trait near useless lately?

Toss elixir R cleanses one per second over 6 seconds, 2 per second with 409. When you go up tools it goes on reset at 25% HP (with a 90s CD) which meshes really well with how it works to self rez. Running a build up the tools tree (which is almost always a power build because of going 15 up tools for a condi build is difficult as you can’t get HGH and grenadier with 15 up tools) allows you to at least get a decent amount of cleanses against hardcore condi builds

It’s hard to fit in, but it can work. I really am not scared of most condi classes except other condi engis. It’s kill or be killed against them, don’t even bother trying to cleanse most of the time.

A good build for engis will almost always fit in condi cleanses, in TPvP at least. If you don’t have any cleanses then you better have some gnarly kitten damage. The best example is warriors, they have some of the best burst in the game but it comes with zero cleanses. Same with hundred nades with tool kit, you can one shot people but there aren’t any cleanses worth a kitten.

Because healing turret is so lackluster with its cleanses without 15 up inventions (a bad tree), you’re forced into either:

1 med kit cleanse (hopefully with a block)
elixir gun on kit refinement (hopefully with a good projectile finisher)
Elixir C
Elixir R on reset
409