Guild Wars 2

Hey folks,

excuse me, but I haven’t played for like 8 months and decided to come back and play some spvp again. So I wasn’t quite able to follow all the changes and updates in the meantime.

So I noticed that the good old cele rifle spvp build appears to be dead and has been replaced by soldier rifle according to metabattle. I actually tried to play a couple of games as cele engi, and it felt like a pile of crap. Might also be due to my long break from the game tho, but it just didn’t feel as strong as in the past.

What makes me wonder though, is that apparently d/d ele with celestial seems to be as powerful as ever. People starting whine threads left and right, complaints everywhere and all the eles seem to play the same build right now. Why is that not the case anymore with cele rifle engi? Please educate me.

Damage got nerfed from both the Incendiary Powder move and the stats from traits into amulets thing. Defenses got nerfed with the Backpack Regenerator fix, vigor nerf, and the removal of Inertial Converter. You’d need 4 full traitlines to get the same effect as the old build, so it’s pretty much dead.

Ye, you are absolutely right… cele rifle is gone in spvp, but still viable in wvw.
The new meta builds in spvp are: hgh builds, soldier or marauder rifle, or full condi builds.
And dd eles are totally broken.

Thats why i avoid the forum as much as i can. Cele is as viable as soldier or marauder imo, but ppl just copy metabattle builds and dont try by them selfs.
With cele you have the critchance and can pressure an ele for example pretty hard over time(you need mortar tho or good timed rampage). Further when you make one mistake against them(eat burn or dagger #3 #5) you´re dead or you lose the point.

But still engi is in a niche spot because as a backpoint holder you can easily replace him with an ele and you can replace a marauder with a better zerk class (mesmer).

Nitesky.6427:

What makes me wonder though, is that apparently d/d ele with celestial seems to be as powerful as ever. People starting whine threads left and right, complaints everywhere and all the eles seem to play the same build right now. Why is that not the case anymore with cele rifle engi? Please educate me.

As it has been stated, our main issues concerning Celestial right now stem from the fact that many of the traits that were necessary for fully utilizing it have either been gutted or spread to the far corners of the trait lines. It is no longer possible to obtain accelerated offense and defense by using this amulet alone as Might stacking is necessary to utilize it after stats were essentially transformed into extremes (i.e. full power or condie). The reason Elementalist is thriving is because they never had to choose between adding blast finishers to their utilities or gaining proper defensive capabilities, which is where we are currently suffering. If we wanted to maximize our own potential with Celestial it would mean that we would require multiple blast finishers while being able to grab Grenade Kit, Elixir Gun & Tool Kit simultaneously.

TLDR; Being forced to take kits as both offensive and defensive measures is currently hampering overall potential with Celestial in the current PvP environment when coupled with clunky trait lines and a plethora of bugs.

Well the soldier’s elixir build that chaith made works decent with cele with firearms over tools, but its still weaker than prepatch cele because you can’t take tool kit and slick shoes as elixir S is needed to stay alive, and elixir B is needed to build might and have swiftness. Its really not a bad build, but soldiers just deals with focus fire better.

Cava.7254:

Thats why i avoid the forum as much as i can. Cele is as viable as soldier or marauder imo, but ppl just copy metabattle builds and dont try by them selfs.

Or just run the numbers and figure out it’s a much weaker build than before. I trust Chaith’s judgment on a lot of things, as I do with Ostricheggs, Teldo, Koroshi, and whoever else puts in the time and energy practicing and testing these builds—and actually visibly displays the results of their builds through Twitch streaming, especially when I no longer have the time to do it myself.

Not only was Incendiary Powder moved to Firearms, basically making you choose between a 10%-25% damage reduction on your grenades or mediocre burn damage, the very amulet itself got a substantial nerf.

If you wish to maintain the damage output of Celestial pre-patch, you’re forced to go with taking both Explosives and Firearms, and are then forced to choose between mobility and survivability.

You can take Alchemy and get good vigor access and condition removal, but you lose out on swiftness making you incredibly slow and weak at rotating for 1v1s (which was half the strength of the original build). Or you can take Tools and get swiftness and additional damage at the cost of being literally a glass cannon.

You can arguably take Inventions, but an Explosives/Firearms/Inventions build with Celestial just underperforms in the same situations a Soldier build with Explosives/Alchemy/Tools succeeds in. Just ask a friend or a guildmate to scrim against you in 1v1s with the two builds and you’ll quickly figure out that not only does a Soldier rifle build with Siege Rounds, HGH, and Kinetic Battery have way better damage than you, but way better survivability too.

Defending Celestial in PvP to me feels like defending corner stacking in dungeons in 2015. Just a bunch of people resistant to change that don’t even understand what made it a good idea in the first place.

I ran cele for a while after patch, but have since moved to carrion. it just makes a more powerful FT rifle build. I’m enjoying the FT IP combo, burns burns burns so nice.

Elixir cele can still be ok, but swap the cele for soldier amulet and you’ll be fine.

Cele is dead because the Engineer is still 100% reliant on the explosives line/grenades to deal damage and be competitive! Before the patch the explosives line could be fitted to output good power and condition damage! Now the explosives line is 100% power oriented which is why power Engi is the new meta! You’d think after 3 years we could see some variety but I guess that’s just wishful thinking!

Also sustain was nerfed!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

ellesee.8297:

You’d think after 3 years we could see some variety but I guess that’s just wishful thinking!

Yea, I think you’ve gotten spoiled from playing engi. Most classes haven’t had jack for variety in builds.

Even now for engi, we may still be reliant on the explosives line, but the meta build is very different than pre june 23rd.

choovanski.5462:

I ran cele for a while after patch, but have since moved to carrion. it just makes a more powerful FT rifle build. I’m enjoying the FT IP combo, burns burns burns so nice.

Interesting.

I still think FT is gimping yourself quite badly in PvP but what is your build setup?

GrandHaven.1052:

choovanski.5462:

I ran cele for a while after patch, but have since moved to carrion. it just makes a more powerful FT rifle build. I’m enjoying the FT IP combo, burns burns burns so nice.

Interesting.

I still think FT is gimping yourself quite badly in PvP but what is your build setup?

IA hits for 15k with my Alch/Inv/Fire setup, if you can cover condi and bait out clears it’s just death. FT also has AOE knock back, AOE blind for stomps, short cd blast finisher, fire firefield for combos and cleave, plus it’s auto isn’t a projectile. firearms with FT is a fine alternative to nades and explosives imo. you can pick up IP for the constant burns and get the rifle cd and crit traits. explosives and nades are great, but the grandmaster traits are awful if you take X instead of mortar. nades lost range and poison fields, and soldiers amulet means their damage is not that great because they don’t work with intelligence sigils well. FT has a safestomp, and other utility plus IA is insane with carrion. sure it can be cleared, but you can cover condi and land it at the right time.

GrandHaven.1052:

choovanski.5462:

I ran cele for a while after patch, but have since moved to carrion. it just makes a more powerful FT rifle build. I’m enjoying the FT IP combo, burns burns burns so nice.

Interesting.

I still think FT is gimping yourself quite badly in PvP but what is your build setup?

For condi engi FT is the way to go, cause burning.

So if I got this correctly, cele rifle isn’t viable anymore because due to the trait rework we can’t get all the traits at once that snyergize best with cele. Conequently, solider or marauder outperform a cele build that lacks one of those crucial traits, therefore that’s the new meta. Tbh I kinda like this change, because it increases build variety, since now we don’t just go default cele rifle and faceroll anymore. That’s actually a good thing to me, even if that means being temporarily underpowered until the new superior meta builds have crystallized.

But what I don’t understand is why they didn’t handle d/d ele in a similar way. Both builds, d/d ele and cele rifle were roughly in the same spot in terms of balance, since every top tier team would include both in their lineup 99% of the time back then. It would be a great chance to further balance the game for everybody and to give ele players new opportunities to figure out new specializations and playstyles. I hope the devs are going to adress this soon.

Dahkeus.8243:

ellesee.8297:

You’d think after 3 years we could see some variety but I guess that’s just wishful thinking!

Yea, I think you’ve gotten spoiled from playing engi. Most classes haven’t had jack for variety in builds.

Wot? Thief has used SP, SD, and DP historically! Rangers have used shortbow, sword/dagger, and now axes, torches, greatswords, and longbows! Necros have used condi scepter and power/cele dagger! In the past 3 years, what has the Engineer used? Grenades! Condi grenades! Cele grenades! Power grenades! This is because the Grenade Kit has been the strongest weapon by far for both condi and power builds! The Engineer meta is completely dictated by the explosives trait line and now that it’s 100% power oriented, naturally the Engi meta transitions to power grenades! And because the explosives line is 100% power oriented, there are no more viable tournament builds for condi Engi! #Diversity

Nitesky.6427:

But what I don’t understand is why they didn’t handle d/d ele in a similar way. Both builds, d/d ele and cele rifle were roughly in the same spot in terms of balance, since every top tier team would include both in their lineup 99% of the time back then. It would be a great chance to further balance the game for everybody and to give ele players new opportunities to figure out new specializations and playstyles. I hope the devs are going to adress this soon.

Because DD Eles ran 30 water and 30 arcane whereas the Engineer split its trait points in almost every tree! Naturally the new specialization system favors them! Also shuffling traits around won’t really do anything because the cele Ele has all of its hybrid damage come from its weapons whereas the Engineer relied on its traits! Also Backpack Regenerator was nerfed which was a huge part of Engi sustain! If you don’t have hybrid damage or sustain, running cele is pointless! The issue with DD Ele is they deal too much damage for how tanky they are! The obvious solution would be to lower their dagger damage but Anet unfortunately doesn’t share my balance philosophy of the tankier you are, the less damage you deal!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

I’m still playing cele rifle sometimes with good results. I play a alchemy build, with elixir gun, and elixir R for helping rez. I run mercy runes, and can really help keep my team alive with stealth, condi clears, rezes, moa, rampage, safe stomps and excellent sustain. I can handle any build 1v1, and have great roaming speed, so I try and be involved in team fights to keep my side up and apply some light pressure (I also add about 5 condis on multiple targets at time, allowing for some other condi classes to have an easier time). The new cele seems to be about support and 1v1 potential. You play a bruiser role, with lower damage than other bruisers, but some abilities that can make a great difference.

imo to make cele build viable again the incendiary powder trait need to be moved to the explosive trait replacing the shrapnel trait, even though it isn’t as good as it was pre patch but I believe it would make cele become viable again by utilizing explosive, alchemy, and tool

I don´t think that a move of the ip traid would be a real possibility – but mabe they could change the shrapnel. A higher chance of triggering and, if necessary, a shorter duration, or another amount of stacks applied per trigger could be an option.
But the way it is right now you need explosives and firearms to play a hybrid, which is quite offensive.