Guild Wars 2

I leveled my engi manually to 80 and when i unlocked scrapper build i was so disappointed. Maybe i just blow at playing one but when i read the forum i come across “high sustain”, " unkillable", “just run when you see one”. I mean i have other 80s and the engi in HoT really disappointed me. My damage with Hammer is underpar, my heal blows and against HoT mobs i have to put so much more efford than with other toons.

Whats the secret? Why is the scrapper so feared?

“So feared?” I’m not so sure I follow.

Scrapper is not a PvE spec and its additions of the hammer or its gyros aren’t really very apparent or even valued there. You have to remember that PvP and WvW are played very differently from PvE. PvP has a very stringent and controlled meta, and it just so happens that the scrapper’s overwhelming condition cleanse and damage reduction makes it a very good duelist/side-point class right now, especially when gyros also provide stability, healing, and damage on top of their preordained utility.

I also find scrapper to be the tankiest build in WvW and one of the best solo roamers. I’d be happy to share my builds but it’s also important you understand a bit of the metagame (which doesn’t seem to be the case). On that subject I’d be happy to help you, though.

Phineas Poe.3018:

“So feared?” I’m not so sure I follow.

Scrapper is not a PvE spec and its additions of the hammer or its gyros aren’t really very apparent or even valued there. You have to remember that PvP and WvW are played very differently from PvE. PvP has a very stringent and controlled meta, and it just so happens that the scrapper’s overwhelming condition cleanse and damage reduction makes it a very good duelist/side-point class right now, especially when gyros also provide stability, healing, and damage on top of their preordained utility.

I also find scrapper to be the tankiest build in WvW and one of the best solo roamers. I’d be happy to share my builds but it’s also important you understand a bit of the metagame (which doesn’t seem to be the case). On that subject I’d be happy to help you, though.

I had more luck with a non scrapper p/p condi build so far. Would you explain why the healing and damage reduction is better than many other classes? Which skills particular? And i never cared for meta. And builds that could explain more?

Feared because when you look up pvp most classes say they can beat most classes except DH, scrapper or necro.

gmxde.9360:

" unkillable"

My “core” condi Engi eats Scrappers for breakfast. I burn them to death.

Mea.5491:

gmxde.9360:

" unkillable"

My “core” condi Engi eats Scrappers for breakfast. I burn them to death.

A scrapper p/p build is even stronger and will burn them just as good.

gmxde.9360:

I had more luck with a non scrapper p/p condi build so far. Would you explain why the healing and damage reduction is better than many other classes? Which skills particular? And i never cared for meta. And builds that could explain more?

Feared because when you look up pvp most classes say they can beat most classes except DH, scrapper or necro.

Your post caused me to raise my eyebrows a couple times. The first time was when you said you were having more luck as a non-scrapper. The second when you said you never “cared for the meta.”

In response to the first instance: what division/rating are you playing in? And in response to the second: what division/rating is your goal?

To answer your questions, though:

• “Would you explain why the healing and damage reduction is better than many other classes? Which skills particular?”

It’s not that the damage reduction or healing output of the engineer is necessarily better than the tempest, druid, or bunker guardian; it’s more so the fact that the scrapper dishes out a lot more damage than those builds while simultaneously having a ton of survivability, crowd control, and disengage potential to near-permanently contest points even when outnumbered.

The big reason for this is just by how Purge Gyro and the Bulwark Gyro work. Against power-oriented and condi-oriented builds, they simply negate a great deal of damage. This is somewhat self-explanatory given by how both skills work.

Their tool belt skills, too, are very useful. Rocket Charging through a poison field stacks 16 seconds of weakness on a target, which significantly reduces their power damage output, whereas Bulwark’s bubble tool belt is an obvious counter against dragonhunters and druids running longbow.

These two utilities, between both their main activations and their tool belt skills, are immensely powerful and cover a great range of utility, which is why most engineers that have found success in Jebro’s Unity tournament as well as automated tournaments run one if not both of them alongside the Elixir Gun.

Blast Gyro is also a particularly strong utility skill, giving you an unblockable knockback on a fairly low cooldown—which gives the engineer a lot of decapping potential when intelligently combined with Thunderclap, much more than tempest or bunker guardian, while retaining a lot of the same defenses. In short, a well-played scrapper mediates somewhere between the sustain of a bunker guardian and tempest while having the decapping potential of a longbow druid … with all of their upsides.

Furthermore, gyros give you stability, super speed, and (if using Sneak Gyro) stealth. Not only can a well-played scrapper essentially outsustain/outdamage most 1v1s, they have the escapes available to peel out of a bad play or an outnumbered engagement between stealth and super speed to easily reset and try again. Truth is, in its current iteration, the scrapper is a pretty formidable duelist … and there’s never really a situation where a death isn’t somehow preventable. I went several matches in a row in season five (back when I last played PvP) without dying once as a scrapper, and this was at 1750+ rating where most players are worth their salt. I understand that I’m talking about play a good eight months ago and we’ve seen some nerfs since then, but the meta is still largely the same and our build outside of sigils is exactly the same as it was in season five if not (outside of no Slick Shoes) season one—which is one of the primary reasons I don’t PvP anymore. It’s become staler than the Overwatch meta.

You also said:

• “when you look up pvp most classes say they can beat most classes except DH, scrapper or necro.”

I also disagree on this point. Up to a certain point there are rock-paper-scissors balancing between classes (e.g., boon corruption necro is supposed to completely shred a scrapper/druid/tempest 1v1), but Guild Wars 2 is not so clear cut in its class design and balance as, say, World of Warcraft is, and player skill is a much greater indication of who you will beat than what class they are playing. Despite the above example given, I have defeated plenty of necromancers 1v1 on my scrapper.

What is, for example, a necromancer going to do versus an engineer running Elixir S and Elixir X? I can invuln or stealth to avoid boon corruptions, and I can moa them the second they drop into shroud. This is only doubly-so in WvW where I run Kinetic Battery, having two moas to use against them, where it’s particularly easy to “global” them with a well-placed Thunderclap and Electro-whirl in full Marauder/Berserker for over 18K combined damage.

Conversely, I have lost to plenty of thieves and guardians on my scrapper in both PvP/WvW, classes that we’re “supposed to” counter. The truth is, Guild Wars 2 has never been a 1v1-balanced game mode, and while there are general rules of thumb to follow and an ideal order of operations regarding who you should engage, at the end of the day it’s much more muddled in higher tiers of play.

What makes Scrappers so scary? They bore the player and the opponent to death.

Dawdler.8521:

Mea.5491:

gmxde.9360:

" unkillable"

My “core” condi Engi eats Scrappers for breakfast. I burn them to death.

A scrapper p/p build is even stronger and will burn them just as good.

I will have to digress on this one. My P/P engi has beaten many condi scrappers. The scrapper line brings nothing trait wise to the condi table. The only reason people take scrapper for condi is the sneak gyro.

My glueshot + FT, more often than not, takes care of those that camp in their sneak gyro. (maybe i typically go up against new condi scrappers which is feasible as my teef kills most scrappers…idk tho)

Granted I don’t play cancer builds nearly as much anymore as most condi application abilities are grossly unbalanced (may play a burn DH in PvP when I get bored of my other toons).

Out of all the encounters I remember (and have recorded) vs condi scrapper whilst on my condi engi (maybe 12 different people with more than 30 encounters in the last 4ish months), i may have gotten beat by 2 diff people maybe 6 times total(both were running tool kit for that pull condi bomb when I started seeing condi scrappers so was inexperienced at what to watch for)

Ever occured to you then… that maybe you are simply a better player than most? Its true that the scrapper traitline does nothing for condi, but neither does anything you would replace it with. Pretty much all comes from firearms and a condi scrapper should obviously be running firearms/alchemy/scrapper. You can choose to run inventions instead of alchemy but honestly, I think alchemy/travelers is a better compromise, especially against other condis.

The thing is, the gyros offer so much utility. Stomp gyro combined with final salvo traiting is the most powerfull small scale skill in the game. Sneak+bulwark combo is equally great because it allows ressing under pressure. I have won more fights than I can count when outmanned, solely because of this.

Dawdler.8521:

Ever occured to you then… that maybe you are simply a better player than most? Its true that the scrapper traitline does nothing for condi, but neither does anything you would replace it with. Pretty much all comes from firearms and a condi scrapper should obviously be running firearms/alchemy/scrapper. You can choose to run inventions instead of alchemy but honestly, I think alchemy/travelers is a better compromise, especially against other condis.

The thing is, the gyros offer so much utility. Stomp gyro combined with final salvo traiting is the most powerfull small scale skill in the game. Sneak+bulwark combo is equally great because it allows ressing under pressure. I have won more fights than I can count when outmanned, solely because of this.

On none of my toons am I a better player than most, nor will I claim such, however when you have a non meta build “I was using P/P starting back when P/Sh was the thing” (well…there was 1 non meta build for scrapper that destroyed those pvp bunker builds during S1 or S2 easily in an outnumbered scenario…even when bunkers in PvP were nerfed by removing certain ammys the damage id do to DPS builds was awesome…still not better than most I dont think…RIP Bunker Busting Butthead)

Just sad cause I have lots to learn but not many fights to teach me. (that goes for many classes that I play(ed)). Im always looking for ways to better myself on my toons and playing style. (aka always looking to git gud)

Dawdler.8521:

Ever occured to you then… that maybe you are simply a better player than most? Its true that the scrapper traitline does nothing for condi, but neither does anything you would replace it with.

With Tools you can run Kinetic Battery, getting two quick applications of Incendiary Ammo. It’s with this combination that most players are able to quickly load up an unreal amount of burning stacks on a necro and just Toss Elixir S away. Power Wrench also makes the Tool Kit’s Gear Shield have a 13 second cooldown, which is a massive boost in survivability.

I haven’t played a condi engi since Heart of Thorns launched, but that’s what the old build used back after the pre-HoT trait rework … and I still use Tools in WvW roaming solely for permanent swiftness.

The problem is that with condition engineer you’re left to only run one gyro at most, and that’s the Sneak Gyro. As if you’d be running Alchemy with very few elixirs on your bar, you’re just not going to make the most use of the traitline taking it when you need both flamethrower and tool kit to deal meaningful damage.

That being said, I haven’t died 1v1 to a condition engineer in nearly two years—not since Heart of Thorns launched. I genuinely think it’s a mistake to think such a build is even remotely viable beyond 1500 rating. Condition mesmer is just a far better duelist if you want to play a condi build on side points.

Elmo Benchwarmer.3025:

What makes Scrappers so scary? They bore the player and the opponent to death.

So true. I was fighting an Ele over a camp 1v1 for nearly 5 minutes. She eventually disengaged, went to /sleep then ported back.

While I like sustain builds, I really hope we get a true burst build with the next xpac.

scorekeeper.6524:

Elmo Benchwarmer.3025:

What makes Scrappers so scary? They bore the player and the opponent to death.

So true. I was fighting an Ele over a camp 1v1 for nearly 5 minutes. She eventually disengaged, went to /sleep then ported back.

While I like sustain builds, I really hope we get a true burst build with the next xpac.

This is why taking Blast Gyro over Bulwark isn’t really such a bad idea, especially if the other team has no dragonhunters or druids. You may not kill people, but you’ll at least decap points on them.

Phineas Poe.3018:

The problem is that with condition engineer you’re left to only run one gyro at most, and that’s the Sneak Gyro. As if you’d be running Alchemy with very few elixirs on your bar, you’re just not going to make the most use of the traitline taking it when you need both flamethrower and tool kit to deal meaningful damage.

Not really sure why that is considered a problem. I run with 3 gyros most of the time and need neither the toolkit or flamethrower to deal meaningfull damage (although I do generally pack the toolkit, gotto pull those peeps off walls).

Phineas Poe.3018:

scorekeeper.6524:

Elmo Benchwarmer.3025:

What makes Scrappers so scary? They bore the player and the opponent to death.

So true. I was fighting an Ele over a camp 1v1 for nearly 5 minutes. She eventually disengaged, went to /sleep then ported back.

While I like sustain builds, I really hope we get a true burst build with the next xpac.

This is why taking Blast Gyro over Bulwark isn’t really such a bad idea, especially if the other team has no dragonhunters or druids. You may not kill people, but you’ll at least decap points on them.

Shoulda mentioned, this was WvW, not sPvP. BUT valid point all the same, I actually haven’t tried blast gyro in a loooooooong time.

scorekeeper.6524:

Phineas Poe.3018:

scorekeeper.6524:

Elmo Benchwarmer.3025:

What makes Scrappers so scary? They bore the player and the opponent to death.

So true. I was fighting an Ele over a camp 1v1 for nearly 5 minutes. She eventually disengaged, went to /sleep then ported back.

While I like sustain builds, I really hope we get a true burst build with the next xpac.

This is why taking Blast Gyro over Bulwark isn’t really such a bad idea, especially if the other team has no dragonhunters or druids. You may not kill people, but you’ll at least decap points on them.

Shoulda mentioned, this was WvW, not sPvP. BUT valid point all the same, I actually haven’t tried blast gyro in a loooooooong time.

For both WvW and PvP, i had a wicked non meta build that used 4 gyros and 1 elixir. I could 2v1 and 3v1 like a champ. I made it during the PvP bunker meta (S1 or 2, i dont remember). Was tired of ppl complaining that you can’t kill anything so I made a build that did and very effectively. When the bunker meta died, the build worked wonders vs DPS builds.

Never seen anyone run the build I did and I was proud of it. Unfortunately all good things came to an end and with 1 small change from Anet, made the build close to useless

Hoping some day they revert the 1 small change that destroyed my build.

Dawdler.8521:

Not really sure why that is considered a problem. I run with 3 gyros most of the time and need neither the toolkit or flamethrower to deal meaningfull damage (although I do generally pack the toolkit, gotto pull those peeps off walls).

Are you talking about PvP or WvW?

In WvW marauder scrapper does far more damage than a condi scrapper does. Like it isn’t even a contest.

In PvP, I can’t genuinely believe that you’d run 3 gyros and manage to kill anyone with just pistols for damage outside of bronze/silver division.

scrappers now are rubbish

at HOT launch they were really tanky because the whole spec was designed to be tanky
also the new defense abilities that gave 50% damage reduction wich stacked with protection
and the super speed heal healed for 30-50% more per second
rocket charge had 3 dodges
hammer 4 did +50% to double the damage it does now

also the bunker amulets where available back then

scrapper simply was tanky with moderate damage

Rezzet.3614:

scrappers now are rubbish

I dont think they are rubbish but they are limited in what they can do from a PvP perspective.

Your best role atm seems to be bunkering on far, i guess the Menders rocking Water/Monk/Herald runes style of play is not for everyone.

Im trying something different atm with a group supportish style build for the mid fight. But without voice coms it’s common i lay down my function gyro/stealth gyro, begin a rez. Only to have the downed player auto attack and get stomped.

I can clear some condis with fumigate, super elixir is pretty useful. And i run elixir C to toss on the mid point brawl. As well as HT and some blasts for healing, all in all Ele is a better pick for that slot but in solo Q you just dont know what your team will be.

Chorazin.4107:

But without voice coms it’s common i lay down my function gyro/stealth gyro, begin a rez. Only to have the downed player auto attack and get stomped.

You basically have to compensate for your teammate as well and pop Gyro at the very last moments before the stomp so that even if the guy is spamming skills he gets stealthed at the moment the stomp finishes casting.

Sometimes you can try to get an early stun in as they begin stomping, before they pop a CD to secure the stomp (invuln/stab/blind/aegis). If you do it right you can get them to pop the CD for nothing right as they get cancelled. You just have to look at your teammate’s HP bar to start casting right as he goes down.

Or, you can spam team chat with “STEALTH REZ DONT SPAM 1” a few seconds before he goes down so he knows you’re there and you can help him.

Chorazin.4107:

Rezzet.3614:

scrappers now are rubbish

I dont think they are rubbish but they are limited in what they can do from a PvP perspective.

I don’t think scrapper is “rubbish” either, but after receiving two straight years of nothing but nerfs it’s hard to argue that scrapper doesn’t feel bad.

In the years following the Heart of Thorns launch, other professions have gotten stronger while we’ve gotten weaker. Scrapper is still a very effective duelist in the right hands, but in every subsequent season it just feels harder to be competitive.

It also doesn’t help that our build has literally not changed since the end of season one and the nerfing of Slick Shoes. We’re simply forced to play a worse iteration of what was played previously, which never feels particularly good either.

So, it’s feels over reals that pushes people to see scrappers as rubbish, but their issues are legitimate because Anet continues to nerf our meta spec without producing any viable alternatives.

Nothing is scary about Scrapper. It’s annoying if you are playing Player vs Cap-Point against one but it can’t kill you if you are playing PvP, you have to let it kill you.

gmxde.9360:

I leveled my engi manually to 80 and when i unlocked scrapper build i was so disappointed. Maybe i just blow at playing one but when i read the forum i come across “high sustain”, " unkillable", “just run when you see one”. I mean i have other 80s and the engi in HoT really disappointed me. My damage with Hammer is underpar, my heal blows and against HoT mobs i have to put so much more efford than with other toons.

Whats the secret? Why is the scrapper so feared?

+10% hammer damage with Rune of Strength and Sigil of Accuracy and Sigil of Strength gives you permanent 25 stack of might + crit 70% + almost permanent quickness.

Also quick restoring of medical gyro and Bulwark Gyro with Elixir Gun make you best protector in a group. Elixir Gun has Super Elixir which is bet for remove condi. With this scrapper is like mix of warrior and guardian.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I don’t think scrapper is “rubbish” either, but after receiving two straight years of nothing but nerfs it’s hard to argue that scrapper doesn’t feel bad.

Tbf some of the nerfs were warranted, what was the initial stealth gyro timer, 20seconds? How did that go live would be something id question. Especially when a skill already existed that was more limited in it being static in Shadow Refuge. That was on a much longer timer.

When it comes to Engineers the balance team needs to stop being lazy, a lot of skills dont need cooldown tweaks/DPS tweaks. They need to be rewritten from scratch(Thermobaric detonation). The whole explosives line is under performing outside of PvE. Anet talk about purity of purpose, why does shrapnel exist in the explosives line then?

The totally useless med kit, if you are going to spend your whole time doing 1 thing, such as healing with the med blaster, it needs to be rewarding/worthwhile. You can drop a HT gain the 5k burst heal to everyone in a 240 radius and pick it back up to get the 15sec CD(plus the water field for blasts). The whole process is a couple seconds, you are still probably on second use of your med blaster at this point having healed 800hp’s.

Ive pretty much given up on this games balance team, they are either non existent or dont play enough to know the mechanics of their own game. Hell they gave out might buffs to phantasmal swordsmen, might buffs do nothing for mesmer phantasms. Phantasm dmg is derived from the summoners stats.

I do wish scrappers, specifically gyro focused kitless scrappers, had far more group utility then they do. Maybe even at a cost of some of the self affecting abilities.

I would love to have better large team utility instead of this solo or 5 man dinky crap.

Chorazin.4107:

Phineas Poe.3018:

I don’t think scrapper is “rubbish” either, but after receiving two straight years of nothing but nerfs it’s hard to argue that scrapper doesn’t feel bad.

Tbf some of the nerfs were warranted, what was the initial stealth gyro timer, 20seconds? How did that go live would be something id question. Especially when a skill already existed that was more limited in it being static in Shadow Refuge. That was on a much longer timer.

When it comes to Engineers the balance team needs to stop being lazy, a lot of skills dont need cooldown tweaks/DPS tweaks. They need to be rewritten from scratch(Thermobaric detonation). The whole explosives line is under performing outside of PvE. Anet talk about purity of purpose, why does shrapnel exist in the explosives line then?

The totally useless med kit, if you are going to spend your whole time doing 1 thing, such as healing with the med blaster, it needs to be rewarding/worthwhile. You can drop a HT gain the 5k burst heal to everyone in a 240 radius and pick it back up to get the 15sec CD(plus the water field for blasts). The whole process is a couple seconds, you are still probably on second use of your med blaster at this point having healed 800hp’s.

Ive pretty much given up on this games balance team, they are either non existent or dont play enough to know the mechanics of their own game. Hell they gave out might buffs to phantasmal swordsmen, might buffs do nothing for mesmer phantasms. Phantasm dmg is derived from the summoners stats.

some nerfs were needed butthe way they did it was wrong and killed the class
what was wrong at the start of HoT was the super bunker meta with the super bunker amulets

any scrapper build with some healing power was immortal
but then they went and nerfed tanking skills and traits ontop of removing bunker amulets
as well as gyro dazes

so scrapper ended up a mediocre warrior wanna be profession
without the burst nor the tanking nor the CC nor the Support

AKA Armorless Hammer swinger

Here is my opinion on scrapper.

Scrapper is a support dps build. You use runes of darability (or pack) and healing turret as well as toss elixir B for 3 stacks of stability to empower your allies and do burst physical damage.

Scrapper is not a berserker warrior. They cannot carry. Scrapper has function gyro to rez an ally or do a ranged stomp

Scrapper is fine. They are not a solo roamer instead they are enhancements hammer power dps

They provide good boons and friendly healing water field burst and decent power burst damage.

Scrapper mindset is for guardians or support characters.

If you want to carry make a stealth condition blow torch incendiary ammo ambush engineer. Those guys can get close – pop toss elixir s and prep ammo with blow torch and use static shock ( aed healing tool belt skill) and 1 shot a person. Can use tools coldown traits to get 6 stacks of burn on double ammo prepped within 45 seconds and static shock stun so they dont cleanse.

Hope that helps. I have other builds i can share with you guys.

Anthony.7630:

Scrapper is fine. They are not a solo roamer instead they are enhancements hammer power dps.

And yet in PvP we’re a side-point duelist and in WvW we’re best at roaming.

Interesting.