Guild Wars 2

I’ve asked this since beta 1. I know its brought up before. Never got an answer on it though.

Is it because we have so few weapon options?
But that doesnt make sense…then i would just ask why we have so few weapon options…

Is it because we have access to kits?
But that doesnt make sense….that would mean they are balancing my profession assuming i ALWAYS am using atleast one kit. which would mean i’m under powered anytime i’m not using a kit and STILL over powered if i use more than 1 kit. NO…still wrong.

Is it because of the toolbelt?
Well, gaurdian has access to 3 extra abilities, hunter has access to 4 through its pet though only one can be activated by the player which he can customize by what pet, necromancer gets 4 other abilities through Deathshroud..
No…that doesnt seem right either….everyone else has access to plenty of utility on their profession abilitys…still doesnt seem right.

I cant figure it out….anyone else know?

I agree that something is missing. The fact that playing a “Run and Gun” build without being condition focused is not viable in High end pvp. And that’s putting it lightly. With accelerant-packed turrets you can pull off some mean combos but after the smoke clears most of the time a Bunker Build will simply shrug off your damage or even worse a condition build will take you down fast even if you run a Healing Turret.

My personal opinion is that I think Engineer Traits should really cause our Weapon Skills to shine. Grandmaster traits should allow things like “Hip Shot: chance to remove stability on hit”. Traits like this would allow you to draw some diversity from something besides kits and Elixer S.

(Why does landing a successful Jump Shot cause Vulnerability? Can’t it Daze? Or knock Down? Or even Blind?)

Same as elementalist, they think it would be too OP to have even more skills at our disposal.

Simple Answer is that Eng was last class made and was barely out Alpha stage when game was launched.
You can see it in fact that Anet calls Eng a “mid-range” fighter. Like that even makes since. What good is it to be at mid-range vs full range anyway. In WvW being Mid-Range is more of death than being good. That is why alot of engines go Grenades in WvW.

Lack of thought went into the rushed class. And it will probably never be fixed because Game Devs never like to admit a class was not finished.

Wuffles.5319:

Same as elementalist, they think it would be too OP to have even more skills at our disposal.

But a Ele does have more skills than any other class while at same time having 3 stun breakers that also if traited can apply buffs.

Problem is Eng has to give up so much to get more than 5 weapon skills.

Moddo.7105:

Wuffles.5319:

Same as elementalist, they think it would be too OP to have even more skills at our disposal.

But a Ele does have more skills than any other class while at same time having 3 stun breakers that also if traited can apply buffs.

Problem is Eng has to give up so much to get more than 5 weapon skills.

I never put three stun breakers on my ele, but engi does have 3 stun breakers if you look, no, they don’t apply buffs, but every class is different.

Andddd, ele does have the most skills out of anything, yeah, but that’s because they love Ele and hate Engi. what can you do when you’re the red headed step child?

Moddo.7105:

Wuffles.5319:

Same as elementalist, they think it would be too OP to have even more skills at our disposal.

But a Ele does have more skills than any other class while at same time having 3 stun breakers that also if traited can apply buffs.

Problem is Eng has to give up so much to get more than 5 weapon skills.

It has always bothered me how “Light armor” Professions can tank better than heavy armor ones in this game. Shouldn’t they at least be trying to avoid damage? Dagger/Dagger Elementalists have to play more aggressive than Thief’s and live 8 times longer. And a decent condition/toughness Necromancer can control conditions reliably while outliving bunker Guardians. Engineers only “Oh Kitten” condition cleanser (besides healing turret) is Elixer C which convert all conditions into boons.. Which the Necromancer will then turn back into conditions. There’s some issues man….

It doesn’t matter what you use on your ele. Elementalists can access 20 different weapon skills and still take whatever they want for utilities. If they had weapon swap they would have access to 40 weapon skills.

Also engineers could really benefit from having weapon swap. It wouldn’t be over powered. It would just make use what arena net actually wanted us to be, versatile. Because as it stands there’s nothing an engineer can do that can’t be done better by another class. I love my engie but show us some love, devs.

I want to say the official reason is our access to kits, which take up utility slots, which are then give back as our class trait as toolbelt skills. However, toolbelt skills aren’t as good as utilities and we don’t have a definite class mechanic because of it. (Some people would say toolbelt, others kits, etc.)

As for why so few weapons, again kits. We can have a rifle, pistols, a shield, grenades, a bomb, an elixir gun, and a flamethrower, which on paper looks like a lot of unique weapon choices. However, they also thought that access to up to 4 of these weapons/ weapon sets at once was too versatile, and then put a ‘versatility tax’ on our main weapons, making us one of the weakest (if not the weakest) class by default.

Many people have claimed engineer was a rushed class, I can’t say if this is true or not, but it is in human nature to stick with bad choices rather than admitting you were incorrect. Our traits often seem unfinished, with some utility skills receiving 5-7 traits focused on them, and others receiving only one or two. While other classes have similar problems, none are quite as pronounced as the engineer.

Still, it seems like engineers are moving towards being a better refined class, as we’re no longer considered the worst in pvp, many of our bugs have been sorted, and we’ve received numerous buffs to various aspects of our gameplay.

Creld.8702:

I want to say the official reason is our access to kits, which take up utility slots, which are then give back as our class trait as toolbelt skills. However, toolbelt skills aren’t as good as utilities and we don’t have a definite class mechanic because of it. (Some people would say toolbelt, others kits, etc.)

As for why so few weapons, again kits. We can have a rifle, pistols, a shield, grenades, a bomb, an elixir gun, and a flamethrower, which on paper looks like a lot of unique weapon choices. However, they also thought that access to up to 4 of these weapons/ weapon sets at once was too versatile, and then put a ‘versatility tax’ on our main weapons, making us one of the weakest (if not the weakest) class by default.

Many people have claimed engineer was a rushed class, I can’t say if this is true or not, but it is in human nature to stick with bad choices rather than admitting you were incorrect. Our traits often seem unfinished, with some utility skills receiving 5-7 traits focused on them, and others receiving only one or two. While other classes have similar problems, none are quite as pronounced as the engineer.

Still, it seems like engineers are moving towards being a better refined class, as we’re no longer considered the worst in pvp, many of our bugs have been sorted, and we’ve received numerous buffs to various aspects of our gameplay.

I already explained why it CANNOT be kits. You cant balance something around what one “might” do in this situation.

By saying “IF” they use kits with weapon swap they will be OP. You are saying “IF” they dont use kits without weapon swap they are UP. Because you just made a balance decision of an entire class based on what they might potentially do. (if they use a kit they’re balanced, if they dont they’re UP)

Also, you can have anywhere from 1 to 4 kits. So saying 6 weapon options is the magic number for op, but only 1 (no kits) isnt and 2-5 isnt? That doesnt make sense.

End point, it cant be kits. If it is, then we should always be allowed to have access to them regardless of what utilitys we use. Because weapon swapping isnt an option, to have a kit is.

Zinwrath.2049:

Creld.8702:

I want to say the official reason is our access to kits, which take up utility slots, which are then give back as our class trait as toolbelt skills. However, toolbelt skills aren’t as good as utilities and we don’t have a definite class mechanic because of it. (Some people would say toolbelt, others kits, etc.)

As for why so few weapons, again kits. We can have a rifle, pistols, a shield, grenades, a bomb, an elixir gun, and a flamethrower, which on paper looks like a lot of unique weapon choices. However, they also thought that access to up to 4 of these weapons/ weapon sets at once was too versatile, and then put a ‘versatility tax’ on our main weapons, making us one of the weakest (if not the weakest) class by default.

Many people have claimed engineer was a rushed class, I can’t say if this is true or not, but it is in human nature to stick with bad choices rather than admitting you were incorrect. Our traits often seem unfinished, with some utility skills receiving 5-7 traits focused on them, and others receiving only one or two. While other classes have similar problems, none are quite as pronounced as the engineer.

Still, it seems like engineers are moving towards being a better refined class, as we’re no longer considered the worst in pvp, many of our bugs have been sorted, and we’ve received numerous buffs to various aspects of our gameplay.

I already explained why it CANNOT be kits. You cant balance something around what one “might” do in this situation.

By saying “IF” they use kits with weapon swap they will be OP. You are saying “IF” they dont use kits without weapon swap they are UP. Because you just made a balance decision of an entire class based on what they might potentially do. (if they use a kit they’re balanced, if they dont they’re UP)

Also, you can have anywhere from 1 to 4 kits. So saying 6 weapon options is the magic number for op, but only 1 (no kits) isnt and 2-5 isnt? That doesnt make sense.

End point, it cant be kits. If it is, then we should always be allowed to have access to them regardless of what utilitys we use. Because weapon swapping isnt an option, to have a kit is.

But you see Anet does balance that way. IE granade nerf awhile back. It would be OP if you took traits and with sigils.

Another example is upcoming mesmer change to GS#1 into a beam that hits all enemies inbetween Mesmer and target. In same thought they mentioned reducing Shatter dmg to compensate this. Not even considering that people use other weapons than Great-sword. And most big hitting shatter builds use a Staff/Sword+pistol or Focus.

@Moddo
the difference is for mesmers, for the builds that dont simply wanna burst damage, there are other ways to shatter the clones for utility instead of damage.

and grenade nerfs are simply that…if you grab grenade kit you prob should trait for it, if you trait for it you cant be too powerful.

But weapon swap means every viable option for an engineer is UP unless they use one of their kit abilities. This is on a much larger scale. Not to say what you were suggesting is wrong. But i dont see that as comparible. A huge profession function is being removed incase you grab a couple select utilitys vs a single utility is nerfed incase you grab its defining trait. Big difference.

The sad part is that ANET fails over and over to understand why less and less people are playing the Engineer. They are just plain lack luster. I love my engineer, but after 5 sets of gear trying to make this profession work its a bit disheartening to see other classes with more finish.

We were one of the last professions made…or announced anyway. Its very clear some professions have more polish than others. We just were not in the oven as long and the game needed to release….fixes for professions AFTER release come slower and will never be as grand as they could have been pre-release where they dont have to worry about confusing or massively changing things players who bought the game might feel attached to.

Most people who have an engineer probably follow the sentiment I heard expressed and widely agreed with in map chat the other day:
“My engineer sits under the offscreen arrow for character slots”
“My engineer is parked at a node”
“I’m not playing my engineer until A-net do something major to them”
etc

There is no real reason for engineer not to have weapon swapping and the VERSATILITY that gives in terms of changing stats and sigils.

Right now our weapons are designed deliberately weaker, we suppose because we have kits, abut yet our kits are weaker because they’re not weapons. Look at the combo potential of our kits… it’s just dreadful for example.

Either we need to get weapon swap:
adding new weapon sets for 2hand hammer(wrench)
maces
focus
torch
daggers

Or we need to stop halfarsing the kit route and do it properly:
with all elixirs placed in 1 kit and random crap removed (elixirs are low power, multiple slow slow cast and keypress, slow flightime, 240 not 1200! diameter, not supported by armour etc etc compared to shouts so this should be ok)
all turrets in 1 kit (& big improvements to power, responsiveness, ai, short term invuln on placement so they do something before evaporating etc)
a gadget kit (and traits to properly support gadgets)
an actual longer range single target kit (sniper gun?) and can hit people who aren’t asleep or afk or npc guards etc
flamethrower that is more similar to warrior longbow for e.g. finishers range aoe area burning application all massively inferior for flamethrower
Elixir Gun overhaul.
Grenade kit flight speed doubled? allowing it to be balanced properly as a greater range aoe kit, without hitting stupid opponents much harder, and hitting smart opponents barely at all.

and big trait overhaul

and finally the 10page buglist looked at.

I actully think GW2 could need some class revisions(like they did win classic WoW at some point) But then i’m afraid we would end up like shamans did and eventually “bus shock” the wrong guy and get ignored for a long long time :X.

Oh the memories >_>

Well, WoW’s class revisions were mostly done through skill nerfs and changes to remakes of the Talent trees.

I mean one day my warlock minions started scaling off my gear…that was nice. But i dont remember ever having a revision per say…

EDIT: also shamans were the most OP thing on the planet for the first 2 years of the game. Course with arathi basin (conquest style) suddenly bunkers were all that mattered….and on that day alliance was stronger than the horde in BG’s…praise paladins.

Zinwrath.2049:

I already explained why it CANNOT be kits. You cant balance something around what one “might” do in this situation.

By saying “IF” they use kits with weapon swap they will be OP. You are saying “IF” they dont use kits without weapon swap they are UP. Because you just made a balance decision of an entire class based on what they might potentially do. (if they use a kit they’re balanced, if they dont they’re UP)

Also, you can have anywhere from 1 to 4 kits. So saying 6 weapon options is the magic number for op, but only 1 (no kits) isnt and 2-5 isnt? That doesnt make sense.

End point, it cant be kits. If it is, then we should always be allowed to have access to them regardless of what utilitys we use. Because weapon swapping isnt an option, to have a kit is.

I wasn’t saying that kits are a logical replacement, only that anet considers them such. Also, it is possible to run without a kit and do comparably well, you simply have to use toolbelt skills (with static discharge) as more or less your second weapon (not really, but it’s an easy way to think about it).

Beyond this, the information I’ve said based on what I’ve read, I can’t offer further explanation as to why we don’t have weapon swapping. However, one minor point of contention, weapon swapping is technically optional. As a warrior, you can stay with a rifle out 24/7 and still do passably well. Any class/weapon set can do this, engineers are simply forced to if they choose to forgo a kit. Still, I shudder to think how anet would ‘balance’ us if they gave us more weapons and a weapon swap…

Irregardless of any speculation to the contrary, it’s because of Kits. The Tool Belt also supplements it.

Why it is this way makes sense to me, because access to kits does give us a lot of potential swaps. Especially if you are running with 2 or 3 kits then you effectively have more swapping power then anyone else, and without a cooldown. The problem I think though, is that the balance of no kit builds is affected because we are expected to have kits. The other extreme suffers as well, as a full multi-kit build lacks any of the survival utilities that we feel the need to take in PvP situations.

We are effectively balanced as if our Utility Slots are extremely powerful in comparison to other classes. This kind of thing can work, but I think our Utility slots need a good gunk cleaning and a kit could be given a better survival skill. We could also use a kitless trait, that allows you to beef up your single weapon significantly to make up for the lack of a kit. This kind of thing can work, but it needs some balancing around the edges.

Ayestes.1273:

Irregardless of any speculation to the contrary, it’s because of Kits. The Tool Belt also supplements it.

Why it is this way makes sense to me, because access to kits does give us a lot of potential swaps. Especially if you are running with 2 or 3 kits then you effectively have more swapping power then anyone else, and without a cooldown. The problem I think though, is that the balance of no kit builds is affected because we are expected to have kits. The other extreme suffers as well, as a full multi-kit build lacks any of the survival utilities that we feel the need to take in PvP situations.

We are effectively balanced as if our Utility Slots are extremely powerful in comparison to other classes. This kind of thing can work, but I think our Utility slots need a good gunk cleaning and a kit could be given a better survival skill. We could also use a kitless trait, that allows you to beef up your single weapon significantly to make up for the lack of a kit. This kind of thing can work, but it needs some balancing around the edges.

So we’re nerfed in preperation for something they will do sometime down the road. That seems rather odd, but does seem to see how they do things here.

Perhaps if every utility was as powerful as a 2ndary weapon but a lot of utilitys are weaker then another professions counter-part.

Take elixer U for example. where another class can use the same ability and know what will happen. We get a random debuff that we cant plan around..becaus we dont know what it will give us. thus its not as good.

Also, weapon swap is always an advantage, if a player using another profession doesnt plan to use that to their advantage thats their loss. So many times on my necro i’ll lay down marks, then switch to my dagger. Or catch up to someone with my garudian greatsword to switch and trap them with my hammer and pummel them. Or switch to my greatsword from my longbow on my hunter and block/knockback and leap away to safety…

Engineers dont get this luxury if they dont have a kit. So if it is balanced around kits (meaning you make the profession weaker because they have kits) then they will ALWAYS be weaker when NOT using kits. Also how many kits makes you OP? 1-2-3?

At what point is it TOO MANY weapon options? The elementalist atleast makes sense..every weapon is multiple weapons, its built into their profession specific ability…something they cannot choose, they have it no matter what.

Our profession specific ability is toolbelt. Kits are a utility…and thus an option meaning weapon swap can not be balanced around them. Toobelt it can be though….but i dont beleive toolbelts power makes up for the weapon swap, maybe it does…but comparing it to what other professions get…it doesnt seem any better.

We are nerfed because of our potential, which I agree with in theory but as I said above and as you have pointed out there are flaws in the execution of this. It basically comes down to many of our Utilities being too weak, because I’m not sure if the devs realized that they need to make all of our Utility slots strong instead of balancing them against the other options in other class utilities. The Tool Belt options help somewhat there, but not enough as is evident in many cases.

You and I agree there are problems now, but I think this is a problem that can be solved while maintaining the same design doctrine. Weapon Swaps are always an advantage yes, but so are kits. Kits are theoretically better because they lack a cooldown.

There are serious problems on the extreme ends. Our kits lack some things that survival utilties give us so we can’t fully fill up with slots as effectively, and when we don’t take kits we are effectively balanced as if we had to. Those are problems, and I agree there.

Our profession specific abilty is both Kits and the Tool Belt. You can argue you don’t have to use Kits, which is true, but that still doesn’t mean we have to be balanced in regard to what would be our strongest state. It creates a bit of a troublesome situation, but I believe it can be solved by at the very last starting us with a Kitless 10 pt trait in Firearms that prevents you from using Kits and gives you compensation in some manner.

You missed my point. Profession specifc abilities are your f1-f4. Not utilitys.

Engineer toolbelt.
Necromancer deathshroud
Pet/Petabilities Ranger.
Warrior Adrenaline
Elementalist attunement
Gaurdian virtues.
Theif – initiative/steal
Mesmer Illusions shattering

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Profession
notice what all those have in common? your profession MUST use them no matter what weapon/utility combo you use….they’re always there to be used and often play a big part in any play style.

Kits are a utility, they are nothing different than turrets..elixers..gadgets. They fall into the catagory of OPTIONAL. Profession defining abilities (as exampled above) are the only reason to limit a professions basic ability of weapon swapping.

Utilitys CANNOT be, they are optional. thats like saying, (gaurdians have access to a teleport utility, so gaurdians always move slower all the time….even if they dont grab that utility to keep them balanced incase they do) Kits having anything to do with the balance of weapon swap, is no different than that….you are saying that there is a couple utilitys that they MAY grab, so any build that doesnt use them is punished making kits mandatory…..in which case, they shouldnt allow you to NOT choose a kit.

The way I see it:

What we pay for kits: weapon swap lower kit damage, utility slot.

What we pay for having a class specific mechanic, the toolbelt: Well we shouldn’t be forced to pay anything, thats a class mechanics for penguin’s sake.

Not all Engi builds have kits, ie turrets.

I don’t understand you OP. If you want to swap weapons (and hate kits) so much why use engineer? Why not use a warrior or thief? Engineers dont suit your playstyle, fine, but you can’t force us to follow your playstyle.

Creld.8702:

Beyond this, the information I’ve said based on what I’ve read, I can’t offer further explanation as to why we don’t have weapon swapping. However, one minor point of contention, weapon swapping is technically optional. As a warrior, you can stay with a rifle out 24/7 and still do passably well. Any class/weapon set can do this, engineers are simply forced to if they choose to forgo a kit. Still, I shudder to think how anet would ‘balance’ us if they gave us more weapons and a weapon swap…

This is true. On my warrior rifle build I use sword/Warhorn off hand to add escape and versatility to my warrior. Imagine that. Eng king of versatility is less versatile than other classes. Well except if you give up utility slots.

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Not all Engi builds have kits, ie turrets.

I don’t understand you OP. If you want to swap weapons (and hate kits) so much why use engineer? Why not use a warrior or thief? Engineers dont suit your playstyle, fine, but you can’t force us to follow your playstyle.

Because the OP is basically trying to suggest fixes for Eng. Your whole premise is bass ackwards in logic. By your telling him weapon sawp is icky and should not be added limits his play style. His suggestion to add weapon swaps would in no way effect your play style because you could opt out of using it. Options expands a class and allows people to have different play styles, The exact opposite of your not wanting options to but you can’t force us to follow your playstyle.

Moddo.7105:

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Not all Engi builds have kits, ie turrets.

I don’t understand you OP. If you want to swap weapons (and hate kits) so much why use engineer? Why not use a warrior or thief? Engineers dont suit your playstyle, fine, but you can’t force us to follow your playstyle.

Because the OP is basically trying to suggest fixes for Eng. Your whole premise is bass ackwards in logic. By your telling him weapon sawp is icky and should not be added limits his play style. His suggestion to add weapon swaps would in no way effect your play style because you could opt out of using it. Options expands a class and allows people to have different play styles, The exact opposite of your not wanting options to but you can’t force us to follow your playstyle.

How does adding wep swap fix engineer? What is broken? Based on your “logic” elementalist are broken as well and needs to be fixed. Each class has its own unique play style, and engineers playstyle doesn’t include a secondary weapon and signets for balance issues. Its not my playstyle btw, its Anet’s and they made the game and decide the rules.

We have no weapon swapping because:

Zero cooldown on kits
We can go for close(Tool Kit/Bomb Kit), mid(FL/Elixir), and long range(Grenade) in the same build
We only have two options for main weapons, direct damage or condition damage

However, a few things need to happen to truly make this a good deal on no weapon swapping.

Pistol:
1-Upped to 6 second bleed with explosion causing 4 second bleed to surrounding enemies
2-Needs to Shoot in a straight line
3-Upped to 4 stacks of confusion per shot, Daze added optional
4-None
5-3 second immob on landing, with a 2 second cripple per pulse

Rifle:
Increased damage by 10-20%, possibly through traits

Shield:
Cooldowns lowered by 10 seconds per skill.

This would allow non-kit users a more even playing field with those who use kits. Our main weapons should be able to stand on their own if we don’t have a weapon swapping option. This would allow Engineers to truly pay a fair “versatility tax” on our kits by giving up a Utility Skill in exchange for a higher set of skills. By giving up potential buffs, stun breakers, and the such, it would be fair.

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Moddo.7105:

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Not all Engi builds have kits, ie turrets.

I don’t understand you OP. If you want to swap weapons (and hate kits) so much why use engineer? Why not use a warrior or thief? Engineers dont suit your playstyle, fine, but you can’t force us to follow your playstyle.

Because the OP is basically trying to suggest fixes for Eng. Your whole premise is bass ackwards in logic. By your telling him weapon sawp is icky and should not be added limits his play style. His suggestion to add weapon swaps would in no way effect your play style because you could opt out of using it. Options expands a class and allows people to have different play styles, The exact opposite of your not wanting options to but you can’t force us to follow your playstyle.

How does adding wep swap fix engineer? What is broken? Based on your “logic” elementalist are broken as well and needs to be fixed. Each class has its own unique play style, and engineers playstyle doesn’t include a secondary weapon and signets for balance issues. Its not my playstyle btw, its Anet’s and they made the game and decide the rules.

either your willfully ignorant, or you did not read where i prove where the problem is. Scroll back up to my last post and see why kits CANNOT be the reason why we dont have weapon swap, and why elementalists reason they cannot use weapon swaps is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. I"m not gonna repeat myself, you can scroll up and read.

I made a similar thread asking this.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Just-give-us-weapon-swap/first#post1603389

Basically I suggested we get a weapon swap but only able to use kits. This would allow us the 10 weapon skills every other class gets. I don’t understand how they can penalize us like a elementalist but not give us anything in return.

Zinwrath.2049:

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Moddo.7105:

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Not all Engi builds have kits, ie turrets.

I don’t understand you OP. If you want to swap weapons (and hate kits) so much why use engineer? Why not use a warrior or thief? Engineers dont suit your playstyle, fine, but you can’t force us to follow your playstyle.

Because the OP is basically trying to suggest fixes for Eng. Your whole premise is bass ackwards in logic. By your telling him weapon sawp is icky and should not be added limits his play style. His suggestion to add weapon swaps would in no way effect your play style because you could opt out of using it. Options expands a class and allows people to have different play styles, The exact opposite of your not wanting options to but you can’t force us to follow your playstyle.

How does adding wep swap fix engineer? What is broken? Based on your “logic” elementalist are broken as well and needs to be fixed. Each class has its own unique play style, and engineers playstyle doesn’t include a secondary weapon and signets for balance issues. Its not my playstyle btw, its Anet’s and they made the game and decide the rules.

either your willfully ignorant, or you did not read where i prove where the problem is. Scroll back up to my last post and see why kits CANNOT be the reason why we dont have weapon swap, and why elementalists reason they cannot use weapon swaps is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. I"m not gonna repeat myself, you can scroll up and read.

You didn’t prove anything. Everything you said is your opinion.

YES, engineer’s need improvements, but not weapon swap. Its worthless to us. Its does not even begin to change any problems with the profession. You are just too blind to see it.

Lantz.7240:

I made a similar thread asking this.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Just-give-us-weapon-swap/first#post1603389

Basically I suggested we get a weapon swap but only able to use kits. This would allow us the 10 weapon skills every other class gets. I don’t understand how they can penalize us like a elementalist but not give us anything in return.

As long as it had a CD, but they’d have to come up with several new abilitys to replace the utilitys you’d lose. And a rebalancing of the toolbel might have to happen.

Truthfully the engineer was just a lot of work vs other professions, and probably coulda had the weapon options. For each utility t hey had to develop a toolbelt ability for it. For each kit they had to design 5 abilities for it. This made the engineer require a lot more work than lets say…the necromancer. Who has the same 4 abilities in deathshroud he cant change, and most of his utilities (minus pets) only do one thing. Hell even by last beta (maybe even after ship?) racial skills didnt have toolbelt abilities tied to them. Some kits went away (mine kit) others were heavily reworked (toolkit/flamethrower). I would say (having played almost all the professions during the last betas) the mesmer and engineer saw the most DRASTIC changes to entire utilitys from beta event to next leading up to launch….its very apparent the engineer wasnt finished, and is why we have these design flaws.

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Zinwrath.2049:

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Moddo.7105:

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Not all Engi builds have kits, ie turrets.

I don’t understand you OP. If you want to swap weapons (and hate kits) so much why use engineer? Why not use a warrior or thief? Engineers dont suit your playstyle, fine, but you can’t force us to follow your playstyle.

Because the OP is basically trying to suggest fixes for Eng. Your whole premise is bass ackwards in logic. By your telling him weapon sawp is icky and should not be added limits his play style. His suggestion to add weapon swaps would in no way effect your play style because you could opt out of using it. Options expands a class and allows people to have different play styles, The exact opposite of your not wanting options to but you can’t force us to follow your playstyle.

How does adding wep swap fix engineer? What is broken? Based on your “logic” elementalist are broken as well and needs to be fixed. Each class has its own unique play style, and engineers playstyle doesn’t include a secondary weapon and signets for balance issues. Its not my playstyle btw, its Anet’s and they made the game and decide the rules.

either your willfully ignorant, or you did not read where i prove where the problem is. Scroll back up to my last post and see why kits CANNOT be the reason why we dont have weapon swap, and why elementalists reason they cannot use weapon swaps is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. I"m not gonna repeat myself, you can scroll up and read.

You didn’t prove anything. Everything you said is your opinion.

YES, engineer’s need improvements, but not weapon swap. Its worthless to us. Its does not even begin to change any problems with the profession. You are just too blind to see it.

I’m blind, yet you compared Elementalist defining ability (attunements) to engineers utility skill set (kits). I can tell i’m not gonna get anywhere with you. I’ve read your other posts in other threads, you just like to troll. my mistake for responding.

Zinwrath.2049:

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Zinwrath.2049:

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Moddo.7105:

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Not all Engi builds have kits, ie turrets.

I don’t understand you OP. If you want to swap weapons (and hate kits) so much why use engineer? Why not use a warrior or thief? Engineers dont suit your playstyle, fine, but you can’t force us to follow your playstyle.

Because the OP is basically trying to suggest fixes for Eng. Your whole premise is bass ackwards in logic. By your telling him weapon sawp is icky and should not be added limits his play style. His suggestion to add weapon swaps would in no way effect your play style because you could opt out of using it. Options expands a class and allows people to have different play styles, The exact opposite of your not wanting options to but you can’t force us to follow your playstyle.

How does adding wep swap fix engineer? What is broken? Based on your “logic” elementalist are broken as well and needs to be fixed. Each class has its own unique play style, and engineers playstyle doesn’t include a secondary weapon and signets for balance issues. Its not my playstyle btw, its Anet’s and they made the game and decide the rules.

either your willfully ignorant, or you did not read where i prove where the problem is. Scroll back up to my last post and see why kits CANNOT be the reason why we dont have weapon swap, and why elementalists reason they cannot use weapon swaps is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. I"m not gonna repeat myself, you can scroll up and read.

You didn’t prove anything. Everything you said is your opinion.

YES, engineer’s need improvements, but not weapon swap. Its worthless to us. Its does not even begin to change any problems with the profession. You are just too blind to see it.

I’m blind, yet you compared Elementalist defining ability (attunements) to engineers utility skill set (kits). I can tell i’m not gonna get anywhere with you. I’ve read your other posts in other threads, you just like to troll. my mistake for responding.

Really? Because even though i help a lot of players with real problems, just because i disagree with you, i’m a troll.

Engineers use utilities to compensate for lack of weapon swap.
Elementalists use their class mechanic to compensate for lack of weapon swap.

They are both unique but in a different way. There’s nothing wrong with that. The problem which i bought up and you refused to adress is that adding weapon swap will not help engineers solve the main problems we are forced to deal with. Attacks, Skills, turrets, kits, elites, traits, are still a problem. Fix those instead of adding weapon swap!

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Zinwrath.2049:

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Zinwrath.2049:

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Moddo.7105:

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Not all Engi builds have kits, ie turrets.

I don’t understand you OP. If you want to swap weapons (and hate kits) so much why use engineer? Why not use a warrior or thief? Engineers dont suit your playstyle, fine, but you can’t force us to follow your playstyle.

Because the OP is basically trying to suggest fixes for Eng. Your whole premise is bass ackwards in logic. By your telling him weapon sawp is icky and should not be added limits his play style. His suggestion to add weapon swaps would in no way effect your play style because you could opt out of using it. Options expands a class and allows people to have different play styles, The exact opposite of your not wanting options to but you can’t force us to follow your playstyle.

How does adding wep swap fix engineer? What is broken? Based on your “logic” elementalist are broken as well and needs to be fixed. Each class has its own unique play style, and engineers playstyle doesn’t include a secondary weapon and signets for balance issues. Its not my playstyle btw, its Anet’s and they made the game and decide the rules.

either your willfully ignorant, or you did not read where i prove where the problem is. Scroll back up to my last post and see why kits CANNOT be the reason why we dont have weapon swap, and why elementalists reason they cannot use weapon swaps is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. I"m not gonna repeat myself, you can scroll up and read.

You didn’t prove anything. Everything you said is your opinion.

YES, engineer’s need improvements, but not weapon swap. Its worthless to us. Its does not even begin to change any problems with the profession. You are just too blind to see it.

I’m blind, yet you compared Elementalist defining ability (attunements) to engineers utility skill set (kits). I can tell i’m not gonna get anywhere with you. I’ve read your other posts in other threads, you just like to troll. my mistake for responding.

Really? Because even though i help a lot of players with real problems, just because i disagree with you, i’m a troll.

Engineers use utilities to compensate for lack of weapon swap.
Elementalists use their class mechanic to compensate for lack of weapon swap.

They are both unique but in a different way. There’s nothing wrong with that. The problem which i bought up and you refused to adress is that adding weapon swap will not help engineers solve the main problems we are forced to deal with. Attacks, Skills, turrets, kits, elites, traits, are still a problem. Fix those instead of adding weapon swap!

I could start draggin up past responces or anyone who clicks your profile, to see where you told people to simply “l2P”. Thats not helping people….yes you are a troll.

You are suggesting that fixing one thing means another thing cant be fixed (wrong). Your whole arguement that you say i dont address…is that you think OTHER things are more important to fix than this.
(your quote again)
“The problem which i bought up and you refused to adress is that adding weapon swap will not help engineers solve the main problems we are forced to deal with. Attacks, Skills, turrets, kits, elites, traits, are still a problem. Fix those instead of adding weapon swap! "

That doesnt make it not a problem or concern. And i never told arenanet what order to fix things, or to fix this before other things. By your logic, i should never point out ANYTHING thats broken or badly designed untill “main problems” are fixed.

Your just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing……that is trolling.

You could but you didn’t look at the question.

No, all you are saying is giving engineers weapon swap is enough to balance it.

So i can’t disagree at all? Ok. Fine, i have no choice then. Take away the few things that makes engineers unique and give us the weapon swap. Play engineer exactly the same as a thief and warrior. You wont see me caring about the engineer anymore.

I’d just like to point out elementalist can sorta have a weapon swap on a much longer cd if they use their elemental weapons which grant them 5 new skills per weapon :p

It would be safe to assume they don’t give us weapon swapping because of the access to kits. It is obvious ANET designed the class to use one or two kits at a time. Without the kits yes, you will be underpowered compared to other classes which is simply a mechanic of the game. Complaining about that aspect is essentially the same as getting gear with +healing then saying your dps isn’t high enough. Just because some styles don’t maximize the potential of the class doesn’t mean a fix is needed.

In order for classes to be “balanced” the designers have to look at the best possible build(s) depending on dps, survivablity, healing, in a class and work down from there. If you didn’t balance classes based on the best build then someone would find it and you would have a FOTM build because it is simply better then anything else.

For engineers it is apparent they view the best build as one that incorporates the kit(s) and toolbelt so if you are not playing a build that utilizes them you only have yourself to blame.

Whether you agree with it or not, the simple reason is because of our access to weapon kits. If we equip 4 kits (6-9) we effectively have access to 5 weapons bars + 4 toolbelt skills. That’s more weapon sets that even elementalist. Of course, if you’re comparing those 2 you could say “yea, but ele’s ge to have access to their 6-8 utility skills in addition to attunement swapping.” True, but we make up for not having our 6-8 utilities by having our F1-F4 toolbelt. Same exact thing, only we get 1 more weapon set. I’d say we come out on top.

Now, we could also equip no kits. In which case, yes, it does suck a little. But our trade off is that we get our 6-8 utilities (like everyone else) but then 4 more utility skills (F1-F4) as well. “But Guardian has virtues!” Only 3 and they don’t synergize with their various builds as well as our chosen toolbelt skills. “Rangers have pets with 4 skills and they’re changeable!” True, but we don’t have to rely on the pet’s AI, inability to hit moving targets 100% of the time, and we don’t lose 40% of our damage output if our pet dies.

Weapon swapping would be sweet, but we’re not hindered because we can’t do it.

Seras.5702:

Whether you agree with it or not, the simple reason is because of our access to weapon kits. If we equip 4 kits (6-9) we effectively have access to 5 weapons bars + 4 toolbelt skills. That’s more weapon sets that even elementalist. Of course, if you’re comparing those 2 you could say “yea, but ele’s ge to have access to their 6-8 utility skills in addition to attunement swapping.” True, but we make up for not having our 6-8 utilities by having our F1-F4 toolbelt. Same exact thing, only we get 1 more weapon set. I’d say we come out on top.

Now, we could also equip no kits. In which case, yes, it does suck a little. But our trade off is that we get our 6-8 utilities (like everyone else) but then 4 more utility skills (F1-F4) as well. “But Guardian has virtues!” Only 3 and they don’t synergize with their various builds as well as our chosen toolbelt skills. “Rangers have pets with 4 skills and they’re changeable!” True, but we don’t have to rely on the pet’s AI, inability to hit moving targets 100% of the time, and we don’t lose 40% of our damage output if our pet dies.

Weapon swapping would be sweet, but we’re not hindered because we can’t do it.

viable or not, an ele could equip 3 or 4 conjured weapons on his utilites+elite have have access to 15 more skills than us while also giving his friends another possible of 15 skills.
Sure they aren’t proper weapons swaps or permanent but hey they aren’t balanced around having them…

If our toolbelt skills would be on par with either utility skills or a propper weapon to offset the lack of weapon swap it would be fine, but it really isn’t atm..

Atleast we have more almost viable builds in pvp than eles ;x

edit: forgot about mortar. And i’m mostly fine with how engi is, just wish turrets,gadgets, some kits were abit stronger so i burry nade kit somewhere deep(i hate it but it’s soooooooo goood)

Many of our tool belt skills suck and don’t make up for no weapon swap. Kits are nice but only thing that makes them better then any other classes skills are no cd on swap. That’s still no reason to kitten us on available skills by not giving us a kill swap.

As Orion said there are many issues that need to be resolved and while he doesn’t agree I think giving us two skill sets one being a kit would go a long way to giving us a equal footing compared to other classes.

The only thing about giving us weapon swap right now is that we have so few options that aren’t necessarily going to work together cohesively in a build—and since you can’t bounce between them as rapidly as kits, I’m finding it hard coming up with something that would actually make us more viable than we are just because we can now flip between a pistol and a rifle (pistol/pistol and pistol/shield might be more functional, but that’s still leaving out an entire weapon that might see better use depending on the build).

It’s a nice idea but I don’t see how it’s actually going to help us be more versatile—not until we actually have at least two viable weapon sets for a build (who runs a power build with a pistol?

… But I would totally love getting a hammer to compliment my rifle in a power build though).

That kits have to take up our utilities while being the official reason we don’t weapon swap is pretty shoddy design though. I liked the idea I saw before of having the weapon-swap be a special kit-slot, and any additional kits you wanted would go in your utilities. It would do a lot more for giving a lot of builds some breathing room, I think.

A lot of toolbelts are pretty lacking as a utility replacement, too.

athuria.2751:

… But I would totally love getting a hammer to compliment my rifle in a power build though).

We are engineers after all. A hammer is a natural tool to have access to. I want a hammer.

personal aside: I want The Juggernaut in my toolbox at home

I respect each and every opinion in that thread, and I’ll also add mine in that big list.

People should stop complaining about few weapons or weak kits or or or. All you need is tactic, a good synchronization and ofcourse experience. I’m an Engineer since launch, and I think that our class in the most challenging one and with the biggest variety on the way we can play. We can farm with nades, we can support a party with EG, we can kill people and tank/kite a group with toolkit and I guess there are also many more builds that I’ve never tried, like turret based build, or FT or a boon-based build.

After all these months I never thought that our profession is the “weakest” and the “rushed” one. It’s just the “complicated” one. And as one fellow Engineer said, -can’t recall his/her name- there will be only good or bad engineers, there is nothing in the middle, and I agree with that opinion with all the respect to every engineer player.
Thanks for your time.

Zinwrath.2049:

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Moddo.7105:

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Not all Engi builds have kits, ie turrets.

I don’t understand you OP. If you want to swap weapons (and hate kits) so much why use engineer? Why not use a warrior or thief? Engineers dont suit your playstyle, fine, but you can’t force us to follow your playstyle.

Because the OP is basically trying to suggest fixes for Eng. Your whole premise is bass ackwards in logic. By your telling him weapon sawp is icky and should not be added limits his play style. His suggestion to add weapon swaps would in no way effect your play style because you could opt out of using it. Options expands a class and allows people to have different play styles, The exact opposite of your not wanting options to but you can’t force us to follow your playstyle.

How does adding wep swap fix engineer? What is broken? Based on your “logic” elementalist are broken as well and needs to be fixed. Each class has its own unique play style, and engineers playstyle doesn’t include a secondary weapon and signets for balance issues. Its not my playstyle btw, its Anet’s and they made the game and decide the rules.

either your willfully ignorant, or you did not read where i prove where the problem is. Scroll back up to my last post and see why kits CANNOT be the reason why we dont have weapon swap, and why elementalists reason they cannot use weapon swaps is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. I"m not gonna repeat myself, you can scroll up and read.

It fixes that class because like it or not Engineer is not only about kits. Many builds such as HGH (most used) do not used kits, but in order to make up for the damage tax we really should run at least one kit – wrenchkit or grenades to make up for it. That’s why weapon swapping would be very nice.

Aristio.2784:

We have no weapon swapping because:

Zero cooldown on kits
We can go for close(Tool Kit/Bomb Kit), mid(FL/Elixir), and long range(Grenade) in the same build
We only have two options for main weapons, direct damage or condition damage

However, a few things need to happen to truly make this a good deal on no weapon swapping.

Pistol:
1-Upped to 6 second bleed with explosion causing 4 second bleed to surrounding enemies
2-Needs to Shoot in a straight line
3-Upped to 4 stacks of confusion per shot, Daze added optional
4-None
5-3 second immob on landing, with a 2 second cripple per pulse

Rifle:
Increased damage by 10-20%, possibly through traits

Shield:
Cooldowns lowered by 10 seconds per skill.

This would allow non-kit users a more even playing field with those who use kits. Our main weapons should be able to stand on their own if we don’t have a weapon swapping option. This would allow Engineers to truly pay a fair “versatility tax” on our kits by giving up a Utility Skill in exchange for a higher set of skills. By giving up potential buffs, stun breakers, and the such, it would be fair.

Personally I think #2 should be a fan attack, but if your at point blank (0-200) the target gets hit with all stacks and all damage . As far as Rifle, that weapon really just needs longer range or they just need to allow for two sigil slots on two-handers.

Everything else looks great.

Orion the Cursed.1206:

Engineers use utilities to compensate for lack of weapon swap.
Elementalists use their class mechanic to compensate for lack of weapon swap.

I’m sorry…what?!

Elementalists get 4 different attunements for a total of TWENTY weapon skills per weapon combination.

Engineers get nothing for their weapon combinations giving them five skills per combo(and have the lowest amount of weapon possibilities in the game).

To even TRY to say kits make up for this and I will point right to the fact that Elementalists get Frost bow, Hammer, flaming greatsword, etc. They get ‘kits’ on top of already having 20 skills at their disposal AND gave give those ‘kits’ to a friend. Honestly, I think the entire reason Elementalists don’t have weapons swapping is purely because they would then have 40 abilities and that’s just insane.

I think the highest I’ve ever gotten an engineer is the mid teens. I have an 80 Thief, Guardian, Mesmer, and Elementalist. I will tell you right now: Engineers need help. I used to have an old 5-man dungeon crew and we had an engineer. They decided to retire the engineer and make a Warrior so that they would feel useful. And it actually helped a TON.

Something needs to be done to bring Engineers and Rangers up to the rest of the classes. Shoving your fingers in your ears and going ‘la la la’ isn’t going to change that.

Actually, I think a weapon swap will add alot more build diversity. Engineers have lots of utilities but they need those kits to be viable. Kits takes up a utility slot and those toolbelt skills have long cool downs. Swapping kits is pretty slow and many of them have pretty situational abilities. With this added weapon swap, engineers will have access to more skills and will be able to use more of their utilities. In fact, equipping 3 kits will be counter productive since engineer will have 2 weapon sets on default.

i believe engineers can live with a 15 weapon swap cd but dont add a swap cd to kits

After playing almost every class, I can assure you that the engineer is the ultimate class.
Many players tend to quit playing the class cuz :
1. Very weak at the lower level
2. Not as simple as other classes
Rather than pushing 1-3 buttons you actually have to swap kits for maximum damage.
Pve wise I’m playing as rifle engineer with grenades and bombs kits.
In spvp i am using bunker build and usually hit the 1st place.
Why would you want a weapon swap? You have kits as weapons and no cd on swapping them.
Dont ask to make the class easier… Just roll a warrior or something.

Engineer isn’t that difficult to play and pretty much all classes have to swap skills for max damage. We are not special in that sense. Many of us quit because we don’t want to be force to lose a utility skill just to weapon swap. Or because our turrets are almost useless. Or our tool belt skills are so often useless.

This Isn’t about dumbing down our profession its about giving us true versatility and more complexity. Also no one is saying anything about a CD on kit swapping for our utility skills. At all.

Engineers should have had weapon swapping at the very beginning. Not only that, but ArenaNet’s notion that the main engineer weapons should be intentionally weak due to the existence of kits is baffling. Kits make up just one of four major pillars of the engineer’s utility: Kits, elixirs, gadgets, and turrets.

Why balance the entire class around kits alone? I would love running a viable build based around the main engineer weapons that had more of a focus on elixirs and/or gadgets, but that’s not an option at the moment due to the inherent weakness of our main weapons, our lack of a weapon swap, and the underpowered nature of most of the engineer’s utilities that aren’t kits.

Engineer has needed an overhaul for a long time, and it’s got a long way to go before it’s where it needs to be.