Guild Wars 2

Cliff.8679:

Not only that, but ArenaNet’s notion that the main engineer weapons should be intentionally weak due to the existence of kits is baffling.

That made me realize something. Engineer already paid the price for their kits with not being able to weapon swap, so why do they have to pay more by having weak weapons?

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Cliff.8679:

Not only that, but ArenaNet’s notion that the main engineer weapons should be intentionally weak due to the existence of kits is baffling.

That made me realize something. Engineer already paid the price for their kits with not being able to weapon swap, so why do they have to pay more by having weak weapons?

Yeah, they shouldn’t. And frankly, there shouldn’t be a price to be paid for kits at all. It’s not like Elementalists where it’s necessary to deny them a weapon swap due to the attunements being their class mechanic. Kits for us are just an option, one of many choices we can make regarding how to build our characters. At least, they’re supposed to be options.

Love the display name, by the way.

I would like to switch from rifle to P/S for survivability but alas…

I personally think it would have been cool if our gadgets were on our toolbelt (batman amiright?) or if we could chose tool belt abilities separately from utilities.

Because the game designers decided that weapon swap was not to be part of the Engineer profession.

/thread

Honestly, the Kits should have been part of the normal UI instead of the toolbelt.

this way players always have kits no matter the build.

makes up for the sacrifice.

Knighthonor.4061:

Honestly, the Kits should have been part of the normal UI instead of the toolbelt.

this way players always have kits no matter the build.

makes up for the sacrifice.

this

Zinwrath.2049:

You missed my point. Profession specifc abilities are your f1-f4. Not utilitys.

Engineer toolbelt.
Necromancer deathshroud
Pet/Petabilities Ranger.
Warrior Adrenaline
Elementalist attunement
Gaurdian virtues.
Theif – initiative/steal
Mesmer Illusions shattering

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Profession
notice what all those have in common? your profession MUST use them no matter what weapon/utility combo you use….they’re always there to be used and often play a big part in any play style.

Kits are a utility, they are nothing different than turrets..elixers..gadgets. They fall into the catagory of OPTIONAL. Profession defining abilities (as exampled above) are the only reason to limit a professions basic ability of weapon swapping.

Utilitys CANNOT be, they are optional. thats like saying, (gaurdians have access to a teleport utility, so gaurdians always move slower all the time….even if they dont grab that utility to keep them balanced incase they do) Kits having anything to do with the balance of weapon swap, is no different than that….you are saying that there is a couple utilitys that they MAY grab, so any build that doesnt use them is punished making kits mandatory…..in which case, they shouldnt allow you to NOT choose a kit.

Just because every other class is designed with the F1-F4 keys in mind doesn’t mean that they all are. Is it poorly implemented the way it is currently? Yes, but just because everything else appears to be designed over those things that does not mean the Engineer is. We are very clearly designed with Kits in mind for a maximum potential. I think there are some important changes that would balance things out in regard to the weak points of this implementation, but it is extremely clear to me that Kits are the reason we cannot weapon swap.

To be blunt, we are designed against something that is optional, yes. You may disagree with the design behind it, but dev discussion in the past and the way things are setup now make it very obvious that Kits were the driving reason for only a single weapon swap and not the Tool Belt. The Tool Belt’s origin is less clear, and would only be speculation at this point, but it seems likely that it came from Kits being in place due to them taking up the Utility Slots and leaving us with less options.

You can argue that it’s implemented wrong or that the entire design of which it’s based around isn’t efficient, but to say that Kits have nothing to do with how the Engineer was designed is absurd. I mean I agree with the vast majority of how this needs further balancing, but it’s extremely clear that Kits were the driving unique functionality of the Engineer in the design.

Zinwrath.2049:

I’ve asked this since beta 1. I know its brought up before. Never got an answer on it though.

Is it because we have so few weapon options?
But that doesnt make sense…then i would just ask why we have so few weapon options…

Is it because we have access to kits?
But that doesnt make sense….that would mean they are balancing my profession assuming i ALWAYS am using atleast one kit. which would mean i’m under powered anytime i’m not using a kit and STILL over powered if i use more than 1 kit. NO…still wrong.

Is it because of the toolbelt?
Well, gaurdian has access to 3 extra abilities, hunter has access to 4 through its pet though only one can be activated by the player which he can customize by what pet, necromancer gets 4 other abilities through Deathshroud..
No…that doesnt seem right either….everyone else has access to plenty of utility on their profession abilitys…still doesnt seem right.

I cant figure it out….anyone else know?

We can not because such is design decision.

AmirTheButcher.6920:

After playing almost every class, I can assure you that the engineer is the ultimate class.
Many players tend to quit playing the class cuz :
1. Very weak at the lower level
2. Not as simple as other classes
Rather than pushing 1-3 buttons you actually have to swap kits for maximum damage.
Pve wise I’m playing as rifle engineer with grenades and bombs kits.
In spvp i am using bunker build and usually hit the 1st place.
Why would you want a weapon swap? You have kits as weapons and no cd on swapping them.
Dont ask to make the class easier… Just roll a warrior or something.

I get it, it’s ultimate, whatever. But those kits are taking up a utility slot… oen that we could use for something else. It’s unfair that it takes up a whole utility slot, when ele’s get a kitten load of skills from attunements AND utilities.

The idea that we are expected to use kits or we are kitten seems to suggest that we should in fact have a kit in the spot of a weapon swap. This way ever engineer gets to use kits without losing utility.

As for the argument that this is the design they choose so that’s just how it is. This is just plain stupid. They change designs constantly. If something doesn’t work or is unbalanced you change it. Screwing us out of 5 skills and giving us nothing for it isn’t balanced.

Lantz.7240:

The idea that we are expected to use kits or we are kitten seems to suggest that we should in fact have a kit in the spot of a weapon swap. This way ever engineer gets to use kits without losing utility.

As for the argument that this is the design they choose so that’s just how it is. This is just plain stupid. They change designs constantly. If something doesn’t work or is unbalanced you change it. Screwing us out of 5 skills and giving us nothing for it isn’t balanced.

Really, i would of been fine if kit swapping is instantaneous but its not. It takes too long before the engineer is able to swap kits and use them. Thus, kit swapping is a huge con. Elementalist are design not to swap as often which do not have the same problems as engineers. Engineeers should be given weapon swap for a larger access of skills.

loseridoit.2756:

Lantz.7240:

The idea that we are expected to use kits or we are kitten seems to suggest that we should in fact have a kit in the spot of a weapon swap. This way ever engineer gets to use kits without losing utility.

As for the argument that this is the design they choose so that’s just how it is. This is just plain stupid. They change designs constantly. If something doesn’t work or is unbalanced you change it. Screwing us out of 5 skills and giving us nothing for it isn’t balanced.

Really, i would of been fine if kit swapping is instantaneous but its not. It takes too long before the engineer is able to swap kits and use them. Thus, kit swapping is a huge con. Elementalist are design not to swap as often which do not have the same problems as engineers. Engineeers should be given weapon swap for a larger access of skills.

would’ve (would have, not “would of” <- this is often mistake because “would’ve” is spelled exactly like “would of”)

Anyways more on topic; I don’t find kit swapping long when you compare it to other professions weapon swap. See that we can dance them pretty much as we want. We can also benefit greatly from swap sigils/runes with little cost or drawback.

To get those 3 stacks of might for 20+ sec from SoBattle i just need to switch to kit and instantly use “~” to swap back

PRO TIP: Use ~ to swap out from kits. This allows you to instantly get out of kit and you do not suffer confusion damage when you swap out this way. If you swap out using kit you will take damage. Tried this like 2,5 month ago with friend. Been like that ever since

Ayestes.1273:

You can argue that it’s implemented wrong or that the entire design of which it’s based around isn’t efficient , but to say that Kits have nothing to do with how the Engineer was designed is absurd. I mean I agree with the vast majority of how this needs further balancing, but it’s extremely clear that Kits were the driving unique functionality of the Engineer in the design.

You kinda hit the nail on the head right there.
Furthermore your 5th trait line on every profession enhances one of the things i listed above. I was merely showing how attunements makes sense (its not optional its core to the design of the elementalist). But kits do not. While toolbelt COULD.

While it may be because of kits, that would make it a mistake. If it was because of toolbelt, we would need to know whats so speacial about toolbelt, are the skills so good that they eclipse virtues, deathshroud, and adrenaline attacks?

Are our overall capabilities with our weapons so powerful that it would be unfair to give us the added utility of weapon swap?

But if it really was kits, then it means we have an inherent flaw in our design. Because you cannot. CANNOT. enforce a balance based upon the necessity of grabbing a line of utilitys. Otherwise everyone not using a kit is UP. Also, like i said before if it IS kits theres another problem.

How many kits is OP? Because if we denied one weapon swap due to that being too many….is it because 3 is too many? 4? 5? how many is too many?

The reality like i said previously i think falls back to money and time. Engineer was not fully finalized on how it was supposed to function. The mine was a kit in beta. Perhaps it was originally part of our profession specific ability (like the ones i mentioned earlier) then got shifted over to just being a utility…or maybe like some people are saying ..they’re just really bad at design and had no idea and just slapped this profession in a rush for launch……all this could be wrong, but with no answers the mind begins to wonder.
I’d like to beleive there is a reason, but i have not heard one that satisfies me.

point is there is an issue, and i’d like an answer. I imagine this would take a dev 30 seconds out of his day to respond with a simple answer, if it is an easy answer.

I agree there are general problems with the implementation of it. I would disagree that the Engineer is the only one that feels unfinished though, as most classes feel that way. This is mostly due to the game being less then a year old, but it’s still a problem that needs to be addressed. I don’t think that the inherent design is flawed though. I think that they can take this system and make it work. Make all our utility slot choices powerful, give us some form of a Kitless trait/option, and a general gunk cleaning and we would be fine.

Im thinking a good fix would be one “free kit” slot, instead of taking up a skill lot our ¬ key swaps our main weapon eg the rifle to 1 assigned kit and vice versa giving us 1 free “kit slot” which is like how the other classes can swap between weapons

this way we get an extra skill and having a kit doesn’t mean losing out in other builds.

Zinwrath.2049:

I’ve asked this since beta 1. I know its brought up before. Never got an answer on it though.

I cant figure it out….anyone else know?

I’d love to be able to run a p/p condition build and have the ability to switch to p/s when confronted by melee or switch to rifle for some control, with the weakened state of our current weapons and without buff to them, I can’t see how that would be overpowered?

Killyox.3950:

loseridoit.2756:

Lantz.7240:

The idea that we are expected to use kits or we are kitten seems to suggest that we should in fact have a kit in the spot of a weapon swap. This way ever engineer gets to use kits without losing utility.

As for the argument that this is the design they choose so that’s just how it is. This is just plain stupid. They change designs constantly. If something doesn’t work or is unbalanced you change it. Screwing us out of 5 skills and giving us nothing for it isn’t balanced.

Really, i would of been fine if kit swapping is instantaneous but its not. It takes too long before the engineer is able to swap kits and use them. Thus, kit swapping is a huge con. Elementalist are design not to swap as often which do not have the same problems as engineers. Engineeers should be given weapon swap for a larger access of skills.

would’ve (would have, not “would of” <- this is often mistake because “would’ve” is spelled exactly like “would of”)

Anyways more on topic; I don’t find kit swapping long when you compare it to other professions weapon swap. See that we can dance them pretty much as we want. We can also benefit greatly from swap sigils/runes with little cost or drawback.

To get those 3 stacks of might for 20+ sec from SoBattle i just need to switch to kit and instantly use “~” to swap back

PRO TIP: Use ~ to swap out from kits. This allows you to instantly get out of kit and you do not suffer confusion damage when you swap out this way. If you swap out using kit you will take damage. Tried this like 2,5 month ago with friend. Been like that ever since

I use the ~ and the swapping is still way tooooooo slow. Engineers has to swap kits often. Forget the fact that there is no cd, there is a huge delay to using this versatility which is a huge con. Elementalist do not get penalized the same way.

Due to this huge delay, I am probably more versatile as a mesmer than an engineer.

There’s .5 second delay, and another .5 if you want to swap to the kit you just left.

Not to mention the fact we’re kind of hosed during confusion (take two hits for trying to clean it via medkit or Elixir Gun), makes it even more annoying.

Daigle.8497:

There’s .5 second delay, and another .5 if you want to swap to the kit you just left.

Not to mention the fact we’re kind of hosed during confusion (take two hits for trying to clean it via medkit or Elixir Gun), makes it even more annoying.

its little ridiculous that medkits 1-5 skills are not instances due to the swap delay. Seriously why is there so many delays with engineer. It is messing up my play style to make fun builds. Now, I am forced to follow the group to make either bomb, 100 nades, etc

someone at anet gets off on this bugs,they like it when your frustrated.

Uhm, we… can? Weapon kits… Yes they take a skill slot up, but we get a lot more extra skills and thus more flexibility than the other classes. And the CD on kits is WAY lower than a regular weapon swap, plus sigils and runes procc both on swap to and swap from – I think it’s a fair tradeoff.

I had a thought, on another thread, but I figured it could do well to flesh out here. I think a simple fix could be this.

Allow us to equip one kit to our weapon swap slot, have a normal weapon swap cool down apply to that kit, but take away the tool belt skill for it, as it is not in a utility slot.

The idea is that we could essentially get one extra utility slot that doesn’t have to be a kit if we want to run a elixir/gadget/turret build. If balance with that is an issue in that we could essentially take FT on the swap slot, giving us a base 10 1-5 skills, but it would mean taking all kits in our utilities would gain us an additional 15 (total 25, too much perhaps). So, limit us to a total of using 3 kits (total 20 instead) between our swap and utility slots.

Essentially, the core change would be giving us a utility slot that we don’t have to sacrifice to have a full 10 1-5 skills. People wouldn’t feel they have to use a kit build in order to be effective, because a kit wouldn’t have to take away a slot. This is just a suggestion, and I won’t pretend I know how to properly balance it, but I think it has potential. Thoughts?

Incidentally, does weapon stats apply to kits now?

Oddgo.5423:

I had a thought, on another thread, but I figured it could do well to flesh out here. I think a simple fix could be this.

Allow us to equip one kit to our weapon swap slot, have a normal weapon swap cool down apply to that kit, but take away the tool belt skill for it, as it is not in a utility slot.

The idea is that we could essentially get one extra utility slot that doesn’t have to be a kit if we want to run a elixir/gadget/turret build. If balance with that is an issue in that we could essentially take FT on the swap slot, giving us a base 10 1-5 skills, but it would mean taking all kits in our utilities would gain us an additional 15 (total 25, too much perhaps). So, limit us to a total of using 3 kits (total 20 instead) between our swap and utility slots.

Essentially, the core change would be giving us a utility slot that we don’t have to sacrifice to have a full 10 1-5 skills. People wouldn’t feel they have to use a kit build in order to be effective, because a kit wouldn’t have to take away a slot. This is just a suggestion, and I won’t pretend I know how to properly balance it, but I think it has potential. Thoughts?

I think the easier fix is to go through the traits. The way the class is built, we need more “combo” potential between the varied abilities we have everywhere. Just one example would be Turret effects increasing damage by Rifle and Pistol by a percentage.

And I’ll say it again —- weapon swap is what makes Engineer a little unique, I can play 6 other classes if I want to weapon swap.