(edited by Nieguen.6235)
Why the AI?
Two things I want to know why they made these AI knowing that:
1. Engineer already has a “minion” system through turrets, which were now nerfed beyond usability.
2. They made the game, played it for years and they know AI is god awful, but made the entire elite spec around this completely bad mechanic, called AI.
That is all.
Given the way that some of the Gyros behave, notably Sneak Gyro attacking players my guess is that the coders ‘borrowed’ code from ranger/necro pets/minions.
These pets are set by default on ‘Guard’ and need to be on ‘Avoid Combat’.
Anyway point is, I don’t think they wrote new code from the ground up for these.
Whole spec seems like an alpha version of something else. It’s like they made hammer and totally didn’t think other skills through.
Why the hell do we have so many AI skills already?
WHOSE idea it was to give us Gyros when we already had turrets and these turrets are BAD. It’s like “guys I got an idea! Turrets are bad so lets make more AI skills so engies can have even more BAD things and problematic AI because they clearly don;t have enough of it.”
Everything about scrapper disappointed me except hammer. The worst designed elite spec out of all
imo, scrapper has so many issues I don’t even care for it atm :P but as they’ve already spent a lot of time on it, don’t think it’ll get scrapped.
it’s like some unholy mix of Squig Herder/Warrior Priest from warhammer, except that those exploding balls of skin and farts were more intelligent than our robots
Whole spec seems like an alpha version of something else. It’s like they made hammer and totally didn’t think other skills through.
Why the hell do we have so many AI skills already?
WHOSE idea it was to give us Gyros when we already had turrets and these turrets are BAD. It’s like “guys I got an idea! Turrets are bad so lets make more AI skills so engies can have even more BAD things and problematic AI because they clearly don;t have enough of it.”
Everything about scrapper disappointed me except hammer. The worst designed elite spec out of all
Because that’s exactly what they thought. That’s exactly what Scrapper is:
Arenanet tried to make a second pass at balancing turrets, this time with a 50 dollar price tag.
What surprise me the most is that they went for the Ai with health bar type minion, many games have done minions well but they don’t delve completly into the undependant AI-based minion type.
Lets us look at some examples:
Team Fortress 2 – Engineer’s Turret:
- Imobile (No problems with path finding or walking away)
- Can be picked up and moved freely (Solves the lack of mobility)
- Extreamly simple minded (Makes it predictable by both the engineer and the enemy)
- Strongest attack in the game (Makes up for the lack of intelligence)
- Requires player attention once a while for refuel and repair.
- No hard cooldown limit, instead requires the player to focus on getting it back up (like a channel, except it can be paused).
However, half of the classes in TF2 have methodes to deal with the turrets power, such as:
- Invulnerability.
- Curved attacks that lets you attack from out of sight.
- Longer range, leting them hit the turret from outside it’s sensor range.
- Zappers, the Spy-class have access to a special weapon just to deal with turrets.
- Players can change class at any time durring the game, letting them counter the well placed and long lived turrets.
A lot of the points above don’t fit well with GuildWars 2, so the stationary powerfull permanent turrets don’t work well. But I think there is a lot to learn here.
League of Legends – Azir’s sand soldier
- Short life time, even shorter cooldown that starts right away
- Invulnerable and untargetable
- Imobie
- Can be moved with a medium-long cooldown ability
- No AI, they attack when the player attacks, extending his range and damage.
- Short range
- Scales with player stats
In this case, the minion mechanic is designed around a frontline concept. Your character will use them to zone enemies back and the counterplay is to get around them and get to the player in the back to take him out or attacking from range. Since the minions are limited to only act when the Azir acts, you never feel like you got defeated by an AI, and the player playing Azir have to be active durring the whole fight.
However, this mechanic depend heavily on the slow movement and short range of the game, if players moved as quickly as you do in Guild Wars 2 and had as long range as you can have they would easily counter this character. However, there is still alot to learn here.
For the last example, lets look at something that moves, and have a healthbar.
League of Legends – Annie’s bear Tibbers
- High health, needs tons of focus dmg to take down.
- Deals pulsing dmg passivly in a small AoE.
- AI goes for the enemy you attack.
- AI movement can be overrided by reactivating the ability.
- Cooldown starts on cast.
- The main functionality of the skill is on cast (AoE stund and DMG, much like suply crate)
There are a few important points here, especially the last one. Since the main function is on cast, even if your minion gets bursted down, the skill have done it’s job. It is also important for a movement based AI to let the player override the AI in case it walks off like an idiot. The minion main dmg after summon is a passive short range AoE, this solves the problem of depending on the AI attacking when it should. And since the cooldown starts on cast you don’t feel punished for keeping it alive.
Conclusion
I think the follwoing points should be used when redesigning Minions in Guild Wars 2:
- Cooldown starts on cast. (This is VERY important, if you are punished for keeping your minion alive then playing with minions will feel extreamly unforgiving and lack fun.)
- Main function on cast. (If your minions can die, having them destroyed right away should not completly devalue the skill, they are still victim to normal skill counters like interupts)
- AI override. (If your Minion is dependant on AI, let us override it when it goes wrong)
- Don’t Stack AI (Your Minions should not depend on AI for both movement and attacks, pick one)
- Having Invulnerable minions is possible (There are already Banners and Ventari-Tablets in game, and they work worderfully, just make sure that the minion effect requires input from the player, or is not in heavy need of counterplay, aka support abilities).
Everything about scrapper disappointed me except hammer. The worst designed elite spec out of all
To be honest I think Scrapper is very well designed. Just a very bad implementation in the actual game and the one spec that needs the most work/fixes out of all of them.
As a consequence why the AI?
Considering how much use the other AI utilities are getting I’m really not sure why. Only thing I can come up with is they had to do Gyros (as seen in the HoT trailer) and the only wait to do it working within whatever limitations the game engine has was AI minions. Or the only way to get it done on time was to borrow code from other AI abilities like Spirit Weapons, which nobody uses. They could’ve perhaps had the visual aspect emulate Miniatures instead and used a proper fuel system which was refilled by using Tollbelt skills, but what do I know.
Why not glyphs mechanic?
Because Glyphs require a phase change mechanic like Attunements or Celestial Avatar. Considering how ingrained the Toolbelt is to how Engineer functions (and the fact that it already spans F1-F5) we will probably never see a true profession mechanic change like some of the other profs got.
Why not signets mechanic?
Good question. IMHO this was the shoe-in for what Gyros would most closely emulate. Especially since we’re the only pre-HoT profession without them. Could’ve easily been done, but the trick would have been how to deal with the visual of the Gyro. Emulating Miniatures would be my proposal.
Why not mantra mechanic?
This would’ve been my #2 suggestion. See my comments on Signets.
Why not facet mechanic?
Haven’t played Rev, so I can’t comment on this one.
And I agree Function Gyro is pretty poor as far as bringing a unique identity.
Why the Ai? The very question I and many others have been asking since the reveal, and the something we were begging to not have sicne the first data-mined images.
In my opinion there is literally no excuse for having a new Ai utility. The last 3 years of GW2 have proven that it’s a bad idea, that Ai in this game always ends up worthless and forgotten. Anet themselves clearly recognise this is the case since they completely ignored the ranger pet in the druid spec.
I just can’t understand what made them think it would be a good idea for scrapper. I cannot imagine how such a decision could have come about when the overwhelming evidence shows that Ai-utilities are excessively sub-par in this game. And why give the engineer two ai utilities? Engineer is the only class in the game that has two utility lines which are the same.
A form of signet would have made so much more sense, adding a gyro as visual cue would have been an excellent excuse for improving the power of the signet or balancing the signet against have two actives, one on the bar and one on the tool-belt. Of course upto 5 floating drones oribiting the player could be excessive, on the other hand it would look prett cool. This way you could still have the blast drone as a signet-active in the style of Aim-Assisted Rocket. Your floaty companion shoots off towards your target and explodes, only reappearing once the CD is off.
No dodgy Ai involved
I think it should be clear to anyone who has tried Scrapper that its in an Alpha state design-wise and that something else existed VERY late into development of HoT and got removed/reworked at the last minute.
Think back to the reveal stream where they DIDNT EVEN SHOW the class mechanic of Scrapper or to the initial reveal trailer where the G(yro)arbage floated around the Engineer’s head. My guess is at during the livestream reveal Function G(yro)arbage wasn’t in the game yet and only the placeholder “Gyro Smash” text existed. This whole thing stinks of poor project management.
I think it should be clear to anyone who has tried Scrapper that its in an Alpha state design-wise and that something else existed VERY late into development of HoT and got removed/reworked at the last minute.
Think back to the reveal stream where they DIDNT EVEN SHOW the class mechanic of Scrapper or to the initial reveal trailer where the G(yro)arbage floated around the Engineer’s head. My guess is at during the livestream reveal Function G(yro)arbage wasn’t in the game yet and only the placeholder “Gyro Smash” text existed. This whole thing stinks of poor project management.
I’m of the opinion that nothing (or very little) beyond the cinematic clip in the trailer, which the Scrapper doesn’t quite jive with, existed until VERY late into development.
I think it should be clear to anyone who has tried Scrapper that its in an Alpha state design-wise and that something else existed VERY late into development of HoT and got removed/reworked at the last minute.
Think back to the reveal stream where they DIDNT EVEN SHOW the class mechanic of Scrapper or to the initial reveal trailer where the G(yro)arbage floated around the Engineer’s head. My guess is at during the livestream reveal Function G(yro)arbage wasn’t in the game yet and only the placeholder “Gyro Smash” text existed. This whole thing stinks of poor project management.
I had the same thought about it when I saw the scrapper in beta…