Guild Wars 2

They made it way too passive with scrapper (not making any claims of what needs to be nerfed I’m just stating what my view is for why the engineer is no longer enjoyable for many to play)

There is no more comboing with kits for cc chains and maxing damage on an opponent. It’s all about spam hammer attacks and occasionally use egun. Enjoyed your old cc chains from the cele rifle build or mara rifle? Too bad, Especs get more cc than you and they don’t actually have to try and chain or land it.

The game takes 0 mechanical skill to play and it has ruined what was such a cool class.
As an engineer you had to be very aware of the cd’s on each kit you had, you had to consistently be able to land your slower moving but highly devastating grenades, and you had to know how to land damage effectively in the short time you had between cc’s in your chain. But instead of making the other parts of engi like that, they decided to make it a passive melee tank that requires 0 focus or skill. It’s not fun for anyone except Fotm players or frankly noobs who don’t think they should have to try to actually be rewarded for playing.

So from an engineer main (not a scrapper main I’d like to point out) Please give us some remnant of the engineer’s old playstyle and mechanical requirement in the upcoming patches. I miss knowing that every fight was either won because i won it or lost because i lost it, not because some bs passives kicked in and did something which caused other passives to activate and made another passive do the thing to the other passive which made the passive do the passive stuff to the guy with the passive on the other side of the map all from 1 button being pressed.

Revert changes to nades, remove this passive bs from the game, and give us our fun noob- filter profession back.

nades werent nerfed, but they also werent buffed. elite specs are just at a different balance point. prolly to encourage hot sales.

I couldn’t agree more. While I was an avid Engineer fan I feel that every profession and the game as a whole has suffered from the June 2015 patch. I welcomed the idea of removing unused or useless traits. But merging traits and making others baseline was a bad idea. The “streamlining” only lead to power creep, destroyed or altered the Engineer play style in a significant way (for example “old school” Rabid Engineer was so much more enjoyable than the terribly boring Burning stacking) and didn’t even achieve it’s objective: we still got a large group of unused and useless traits.

I’ve been enjoying the game less and less since June 2015. Since HoT my motivation dropped even further. Sadly I don’t see that change in the future.

I don’t think there is anything passive about the scrapper. Not by a long shot. It is a very active playstyle. I am constantly jumping around, using the tool belt skills, and using the utilities. I really don’t understand the OP’s point here.

The Scrapper is the herald of the return to basic combat roles. It is as boring as it was in the past when you ran a bruiser. That is, after all, the entire basis of the Scrapper.

Problem is not only scrapper but also players that don’t experiment. I am playing condi with P/P, ft, toolkit and it is quite effective. Now with power wrench toolkit can be really strong , combine it with incendiary powder and new condi amulet ( power, vitality , condition damage) , put a sigil of intelligence and you can create fun builds . In my opinion now you have 3 different kind of builds : scrapper based, rifle with nades and explosive, pistol pistol with firearm and flamethrower . Scrapper is probably the strongest and the easiest to play but , if you get used to them , the others also can be really strong. What i miss is pistol pistol with nades …. but the design of the profession now make them suboptimal ( you have to take 2 damage line )

PierPiero.9142:

Problem is not only scrapper but also players that don’t experiment.

I’ve seen this argument made in all the profession threads. I can’t speak to the June 15 updates (I wasn’t playing very long before that), but the elite specs have radically changed the power balance of the game and the playstyle of all the classes, and many people, for a wide range of reasons, aren’t happy with them.

Now I know most everyone is pvplayers which I don’t do, but my thing is that line from Pier: if you don’t like it, don’t use it. (I know you still have to deal with everyone else using it against you in pvp, but that just means you have to be more creative? (I dunno.) But anywhere else (except raids X-p ) you can play whatever you want! So enjoy your class the way you want to.

I got depressed at one point because everyone was saying that the first class I played (I’ve played all of them now) was nerfed or unplayable, and everyone was talking about ONE build! I finally got my head together, and recreated the build that made me like the class in the first place, and have been happy (with one of my characters at least) ever since. But I’ve seen the same sentiments expressed on all the profession forums.

If you aren’t enjoying your character, what’s the point? Play around, experiment, try new things! Variety is the spice of life.

Just because you can play passively as a Scrapper and it’s boring doesn’t mean you have to. I can do the same with hammer Gaurdian and #1 all day, but I don’t or any other class for that matter. It’s not the class that makes it boring, it’s the way you play it.

Nades need a baseline explosion radius increase (either the one from the grenadier trait or revert the explosion radiuses to the ones from before the 23/6/2015 patch) that way you dont have to take the explosions traitline to play with nade kit.

Ario.8964:

Revert changes to nades, remove this passive bs from the game, and give us our fun noob- filter profession back.

Noob-filter profession? Do you meet alot of strong vanilla engies in wvw? (i certainly dont, the last one i can remember was from before HOT release, i guess most good engies play scrapper now)

santenal.1054:

Nades need a baseline explosion radius increase (either the one from the grenadier trait or revert the explosion radiuses to the ones from before the 23/6/2015 patch) that way you dont have to take the explosions traitline to play with nade kit.

Ario.8964:

Revert changes to nades, remove this passive bs from the game, and give us our fun noob- filter profession back.

Noob-filter profession? Do you meet alot of strong vanilla engies in wvw? (i certainly dont, the last one i can remember was from before HOT release, i guess most good engies play scrapper now)

Probably not, i have hot, i played scrapper meta a lot in spvp, i tried many variation, i find it really strong in spvp and in wvw …. but … i find it boring, and for spvp i miss the presence of aoe. So i tried many other builds. Scrapper is probably the easiest to play but you can also play without it. People simply don’t try, copy a build from metabattle and it becomes the bible. Meta builds are really strong, but they are op for a specific role , it is not sure that if you go alone , the meta is always the best thing. But people don’t try nothing different

bearshaman.3421:

Now I know most everyone is pvplayers which I don’t do, but my thing is that line from Pier: if you don’t like it, don’t use it. (I know you still have to deal with everyone else using it against you in pvp, but that just means you have to be more creative? (I dunno.) But anywhere else (except raids X-p ) you can play whatever you want! So enjoy your class the way you want to.

There is but one problem to this. The dev-side. When Berserker became Meta husks were introduced to have incredible toughness not not as much vitality meaning that while sticks and stones wouldn’t break their bones bleeding and burning could hurt them. The Dev-Side behavior dictates player behavior more than any other element in the game so whether it be PvE or PvP or WvWvW players are actually unable to play their way and are limited by Dev-side behavior.

Can you do fractal 50 in Nomad’s armor? The realistic answer is no. The technical answer is yes. Yes, you could spend 6 hours in fractal 50 in Nomad’s armor and win. But … I mean you’ll be solo for sure. Also you brought up Raids; this is another dev-side behavioral issue and it hits my point exactly. You cannot play however you want in a Raid. That is simply not going to work, a team in Nomad’s will not win.

That doesn’t make sense to me … NPC’s that have specific traits that deter certain builds/stats (like in your example for husks with high toughness) doesn’t mean players can’t play the way they want.

If a group of players WANTS to play Nomad’s in a 50 fractal, they do it knowing it will take them longer than a highly-capable zerker group. For some people, that isn’t a problem, clearly based on their desire to use Nomads in the first place. I think you have it backwards. No dev-side behaviour has been so extreme that it prevents players from playing how they want. If anything, it creates situations where players SHOULD explore alternatives to their playstyles and as players, we shouldn’t discourage that because it’s a good thing. It keeps things fresh.

Obtena.7952:

That doesn’t make sense to me … NPC’s that have specific traits that deter certain builds/stats (like in your example for husks with high toughness) doesn’t mean players can’t play the way they want.

If a group of players WANTS to play Nomad’s in a 50 fractal, they do it knowing it will take them longer than a highly-capable zerker group. For some people, that isn’t a problem, clearly based on their desire to use Nomads in the first place. I think you have it backwards. No dev-side behaviour has been so extreme that it prevents players from playing how they want. If anything, it creates situations where players SHOULD explore alternatives to their playstyles and as players, we shouldn’t discourage that because it’s a good thing. It keeps things fresh.

The key there is if a group will but realistically a group won’t. Nor will a group take on someone in Nomad’s if they have the option at that level of fractal because hopefully your skill will keep you out of completely defensive armor.

That’s the point though; dev-side sets the skill level requirements (rules and mechanics) and player-side sets the choice viability (efficiency and popularity). Nomad’s is terrible to the players (inefficient) , not the developers (because it’s offered), but this is because the developer’s set expectations that don’t cater to Nomad’s; prolonged fights in this game are usually a sign that something is horribly wrong and rarely end in the favor of the delaying party whether it be the NPC that can’t kill you or you who can’t kill the Champion NPC.

The game was built for quicker skirmishes as well so defensive stats have less weight than active defenses meaning that taking defensive stats as a buffer for your inability to actively defend is supposed to not work since that defeats their learning curve. It’s just how the game is designed. Working against the design of the game is optional, yes, but I wouldn’t call it … er… refreshing.

That doesn’t make GW2 unique though … the mechanics of every MMO is set on the dev-side, yet there are other MMO’s don’t make their stat variations scale by efficiency on the player side.

Let me put another way; Take your Husk with high toughness as our working example. I don’t think devs introducing such an NPC to the game forces players to work against the design when they consider how to make a build. For me its the difference between micro and macro.

The high-toughness Husk is a micro impact and wouldn’t cause me to reconsider my build. My power build might be less effective against a mob like that, but it’s not made irrelevant. Other builds might be neutral or even boosted by such a mob. The time it would take to swap to an optimized build for that mob is not worth the difference in time killing with an optimalvs. non-optimal build.

But husks don’t live alone in HoT … they live with other NPC’s with different properties that have found new ways to screw over our builds .. and yet we still don’t go around swapping builds at every encounter. So if I have ‘Obtena Guardian Build #1.4" and I like it, and it works for me, I’m using it, regardless of the encounters.

The bold part is the macro consideration … When I first went to HoT, I sucked because I was still playing like it was OW Core. Sure I tweaked by build a little, but it was how I played that was most changed by those dev-side changes. My build still wasn’t rendered obsolete. Now that I’ve elited all 9 classes, I’m convinced that other than 1 or two classes, it’s not the build that get’s trashed because of dev-side changed, it’s the way someone plays.

So all this is just a long way to say; take whatever build you want and learn to play it. yes, it might be non-optimal and yes, you might have to swap a skill or a weapon in some more extreme changes, but you absolutely can play a build or at least some variation of some build that you already enjoy playing, even as devs make their changes.

This is true so long as core elements of the build aren’t removed though. Elixir-Infused Bombs ( R.I.P. ) and Gun Turret with bleeds ( R.I.P. ) along with turret related traits ( R.I.P. ) actually choked me up when I took a break and came back. My build wasn’t just obsolete, it was impossible, because it didn’t exist anymore.

The husk example exists specifically as a counter, not as a general standard, to the playerbases love of Zerker. I think you are right but I think that I am swapping what you define as “macro and micro”; the macro-translation is that while you don’t have to swap builds every time there is a way to make a build that balances both (thus why viper’s/sinister was such a big deal) and the more you play to those strengths the better off you are. The micro-translation is just your build itself; you are given options, none of which you are guaranteed tomorrow, and you do your best.

It’s working for you is the singular element, the microcosm, and by no means am I saying it’s impossible to play a way that works for you but on the same front in the macrocosm, the game at large, when I brought up the Nomad’s at fractal 50 this is the bigger picture. In the bigger picture personal preference often gets shoved out. You can think whatever you want but in PvP Diamond league is not played “your way”, in PvE high level content is not played “your way”, and WvWvW is really the only sanctum where you can indeed, if you so choose, run around in Nomad’s and consider yourself equal because you can do stuff like heal others or support a squad and whatnot.

When the player adapts to the developer it’s dev-side and you’re absolutely right that GW2 isn’t unique; instead of using power creep armor we have traits and while they can freely be swapped they are doomed to change with little to no warning and huge nerfs to builds happen almost every quarter which either kills the build entirely or just forces a lot more effort.

I guess it’s not just the armor then.

I guess the takeaway for me here is that players willing to adapt to whatever the devs throw at them area less likely to find themselves frustrated with game changes. That’s a universal MMO truth. I don’t see how the OP doesn’t avoid his frustration with the class based on this truth. Find a build he likes and play it; I think how optimal it is doesn’t enter the equation. If someone relegates themselves to optimal, then it’s only reasonable they recognize that what is optimal and what they like to play don’t necessarily coincide.

redcomyn.4651:

I don’t think there is anything passive about the scrapper. Not by a long shot. It is a very active playstyle. I am constantly jumping around, using the tool belt skills, and using the utilities. I really don’t understand the OP’s point here.

Lack of comboing skills. With rifle you had a complex and variable way to cc chain an enemy, now you just 5+3. And this applied to everything else

Obtena.7952:

I guess the takeaway for me here is that players willing to adapt to whatever the devs throw at them area less likely to find themselves frustrated with game changes. That’s a universal MMO truth. I don’t see how the OP doesn’t avoid his frustration with the class based on this truth. Find a build he likes and play it; I think how optimal it is doesn’t enter the equation. If someone relegates themselves to optimal, then it’s only reasonable they recognize that what is optimal and what they like to play don’t necessarily coincide.

I agree there are a lot of options tbat work amd ate even good but arent min maxed. And yea this is an mmo trait look at warlocks in wow they started as a pet class yhen much later got metamorphosis to turn into a demon. Id argue it made them no different then any other burst dps caster, but in legion they are losing the demon form and getting greater emphasis plaved on pets and they are losing their minds because they lost a “fun” mechanic, but it is all a matter of opinion because i hated that femon form and would rather summon any army (yay minion master). I personally prefer the hammer to the rifle and am sortof stuck with rifle now because my auric rifle is sadly better stat wise currently.

As for cc with my hanmer i have a blast gyro and mines to pinball an enemy around.

Yup, it’s always going to boil down to what you like better: playing what you like or playing what is best. Could never figure out what why people play what is best even if they don’t like it.

Obtena.7952:

I guess the takeaway for me here is that players willing to adapt to whatever the devs throw at them area less likely to find themselves frustrated with game changes. That’s a universal MMO truth. I don’t see how the OP doesn’t avoid his frustration with the class based on this truth. Find a build he likes and play it; I think how optimal it is doesn’t enter the equation. If someone relegates themselves to optimal, then it’s only reasonable they recognize that what is optimal and what they like to play don’t necessarily coincide.

What if the build you like playing is removed? That is to say, what if there are no options other than the “meta”? Because honestly esp. with Engineer the nerfs on most of the other portions really does leave either awkward builds that don’t work well or the meta.

There are always options that aren’t the meta … that’s my whole point. It’s not as if there is only one build … AND it’s always the meta. OR … there is the meta and every other build is some sorry fraction of performance compared to it. It’s simply not possible with all the combos of skills, weapons, etc… If you opt towards optimal builds, they you already decided you don’t care what you like, unless you get lucky and optimal and what you like = the same build.

Personally, if all the builds you like have been ‘removed’, time to move to another profession or another game. To be quite frank, I think that’s a rather sensationalist way to describe some changes and I don’t see that happening in GW2 too often though I do know of some instances. Even so, those professions didn’t die … people that a reasonable know that MMO’s change all the time and it should affect how they play. Those people adapt.

But that doesn’t explain what to do if the way you want to play is specifically nerfed or terminated. I used to run almost every class I play regularly much differently than I run them today and generally speaking because the methods of running them were terminated. Half the traits don’t even exist in the game anymore and weren’t rolled into other lines.

Given the trait core the direction is pretty clear. I mean there isn’t really room for innovation anymore; it’s damage based with some emphasis on active defense and improvement to core mechanics of specific conceptualizations for the class.

The adaptation becomes the Meta.

DGraves.3720:

But that doesn’t explain what to do if the way you want to play is specifically nerfed or terminated.

That’s a pretty vague question and it’s not black or white; it’s a personal choice. I’ve always found builds that allow me to play how I want, it’s just a question of how effective those builds are and if I’m willing to adjust my tolerance for a degradation when there is a change.

I can’t imagine what ’way’s to play would be or have been terminated. Changes get made, builds go up or down in effectiveness because of them but the way you have been playing still exists. I can’t think of a build that has been terminated because of a change. You’re going to have to be more specific for a discussion.

Obtena.7952:

DGraves.3720:

But that doesn’t explain what to do if the way you want to play is specifically nerfed or terminated.

That’s a pretty vague question and it’s not black or white; it’s a personal choice. I’ve always found builds that allow me to play how I want, it’s just a question of how effective those builds are and if I’m willing to adjust my tolerance for a degradation when there is a change.

I can’t imagine what ’way’s to play would be or have been terminated. Changes get made, builds go up or down in effectiveness because of them but the way you have been playing still exists. I can’t think of a build that has been terminated because of a change. You’re going to have to be more specific for a discussion.

An example would be my old Healing Power Engineer. When Elixir-Infused Bombs went away the entirety of how I played went away. It is not replaceable by anything in the current game because the closest thing is Bunker Down and that not only has a requirement that EIB never had but it isn’t an area heal either nor is it consistent, reliable, or properly offensive since the mines drop at your location so kiting in a circle wrecks it.

I was sad. And then … I was Meta. DUN DUN DUN!

But seriously, I’ve no idea what to do with my Engineer. Themes are now just damage based with no real utility or cleverness or support. It’s so blaise.

But anyway, many things have been removed from the game. It’s just how games are. Adaptation is taking what you have offered to you and making the most of it which sadly isn’t taking what you previously had and updating it. Sometimes it’s just all gone. And I have no idea how to help others who ask me what to replace that stuff with since there’s no adequate replacement for half of it.

That’s fair and it’s as we understand games to be, Obviously that was a degradation from a change you weren’t willing to accept but on the other hand, I don’t think Engi was designed to be only a healing power class as you built them. Therefore, my response to you would be … time to experiment withother facets that make engi interesting to play … or if healing is your thing, move on to a better healer class. You don’t even have to be meta to do that.

If I swap to another class for healing then I am making an efficiency choice. That defers from the mantra of “play your way” because I have to change classes to play a specific role instead of playing the role on the class of my choice or abandon the role to play the class.

That’s my entire point. Player efficiency demands that players not do the “play your way” thing when dev-side changes simply force you into new horizons. When you say that healing power wasn’t the only design I think you have it slightly backwards; healing power on an engineer is all but useless now since the coefficient total take-away is far, far below the native 30% it used to be and takes far, far more energy to get to it’s crest.

You can do it but it’s so impractical that it’s running Nomad’s in PUG fractal 50 and being sad you got kicked.

I can see that view but I find that interpretation limited. I regard class swapping as a mechanism that allows me to play how I want. For instance, I like condition builds and my favourite right now is Necro … if Anet decided to severely nerf conditions on necro to the point where I was dissatisfied with the degradation, I would just swap to another class that satisfied my desire to play with conditions. I’m still playing the way I want when I do that. One could argue that’s also an efficiency based choice, but I feel I’m still playing how I want which is what I think is important.

My thinking obviously differs from yours and I know why now: I believe that we have access to various classes because they are designed to play numerous roles, but not designed to do any role of a player’s choosing. So if I want to play conditions, I have choice of profession, but not ALL professions.

Based on your reasoning for how the mantra is violated, I can see your desire is to choose a role and expect the class to meet your expectations for performance. That goes against what is typically seen in MMO’s. What’s most odd with your statement is that of all the MMO’s I’ve ever played, the class system in GW2 is the MOST versatile I’ve encountered for this and allows most classes to be capable of any role, even though there are still gaps where some classes do poorly for.

And that’s the thing: Anet sold the idea, I didn’t come up with it, it did exist and they nerfed it. I have no problem with one class being better than another at an aspect but that’s totally different than from a class being unable to really engage that aspect.

In this game I don’t think there is a class that doesn’t fit the damage roles, that is, you can be a (quite effective actually) condition warrior or condition guardian or condition revenant and none of these are as good as the necro but that’s just dandy because they hold their own. You can also be a power ele or engineer or ranger with the same effect. Healing is a bit different. So is armor and survival and toughness. It’s super odd if you think about it; all classes can do adequate damage though there is a BiS for each type of damage but not all of them actually heal alike or even on the same level of effectiveness.

DGraves.3720:

And that’s the thing: Anet sold the idea, I didn’t come up with it, it did exist and they nerfed it. I have no problem with one class being better than another at an aspect but that’s totally different than from a class being unable to really engage that aspect.

In this game I don’t think there is a class that doesn’t fit the damage roles, that is, you can be a (quite effective actually) condition warrior or condition guardian or condition revenant and none of these are as good as the necro but that’s just dandy because they hold their own. You can also be a power ele or engineer or ranger with the same effect. Healing is a bit different. So is armor and survival and toughness. It’s super odd if you think about it; all classes can do adequate damage though there is a BiS for each type of damage but not all of them actually heal alike or even on the same level of effectiveness.

In WoW I used to play a Melee Hunter, that was removed, now it is being brought back…
Personally I think Anet’s problem was that they removed the holy trinity isntead of just freeing it up. Armor should have been like weapons, the armor you where determines your position in the holy trinity. So if you wanted to be a tank scrapper you wield your hammer(or maybe pistol and shield) and where heavy armor and then certain weapon skills give your threat generation, etc.

shahryar.8437:

In WoW I used to play a Melee Hunter, that was removed, now it is being brought back…
Personally I think Anet’s problem was that they removed the holy trinity isntead of just freeing it up. Armor should have been like weapons, the armor you where determines your position in the holy trinity. So if you wanted to be a tank scrapper you wield your hammer(or maybe pistol and shield) and where heavy armor and then certain weapon skills give your threat generation, etc.

I agree. The game changer for this particular game was actually when they reduced the number of traits in a trait line. Instead of making the game more complex, that is, giving a bigger array of options, they reduced it greatly which made it easier for players who weren’t on the cutting edge of building their own games but made it impossible for players who are.

It was a catch 22 for Anet so I don’t blame them: Either the player base was going to be overwhelmed by choices or the choices were to be limited but a lot of builds had to go away. The latter route just made more sense. It is like the Nerf of Orr where now it’s boring as heck; I think that came before megaserver though, which is too bad.

Hell my favorite build right now as silly as it sounds is a power based flamethrower build, no condi damage. I could probably use a better build but for pve it works, it is very hard to kitten yourself in PvE and I love that about this game.

I admit that is one of the best elements in the game. It is lax enough to allow you to truly take the options given to you and explore them even if avenues are regularly closed off from time to time.

DGraves.3720:

And that’s the thing: Anet sold the idea, I didn’t come up with it, it did exist and they nerfed it.

Now wait a second here. It’s presumptuous to say Anet ever sold the idea that any class can be anything you want it to be; I never got the impression that the game concept for classes was that open and free; It’s never been that in fact.

What we actually have is what I have seen them promote and provide though; ‘play how you want’ combined with class choices and intentional class restrictions. This has always been a consistency with the game.

I like a skill based system as much as the next guy, but lets be honest, old engi was less about skill and more about simply having a enormous APM requirement + lots of buttons.

The thing I love about scrapper is that it’s not so kit dependent. Juggling 3-4 kits + weapon + toolbelt isn’t challenging or engaging. It’s just obnoxious.

Obtena.7952:

DGraves.3720:

And that’s the thing: Anet sold the idea, I didn’t come up with it, it did exist and they nerfed it.

Now wait a second here. It’s presumptuous to say Anet ever sold the idea that any class can be anything you want it to be; I never got the impression that the game concept for classes was that open and free; It’s never been that in fact.

What we actually have is what I have seen them promote and provide though; ‘play how you want’ combined with class choices and intentional class restrictions. This has always been a consistency with the game.

The old trait lines disagree though. You could literally be a defensive Healing Mesmer if you so pleased. Not a thing these days. Even Healing warrior builds existed… Seriously it was crazy.

:(

Nostalgia.

But I will agree with you that they’re not equal and never were. Warrior always did more damage, etc.

I think it’s a stretch to imply Anet allowed any role/class combination because of traits and they intended it. I’m more apt to say they didn’t want it to be a thing, which is probably why it’s not a thing now.

I think it’s the opposite. The playerbase (which couldn’t figure out how to dodge, remember?) complained that they wanted easier trait lines… So they got them. 2 years in. If they wanted to terminate the system they would have much earlier because they did solve exploits and cheat builds/invincible builds quite quickly.

A lot of “this trait is worthless” and “why isn’t this baseline?” later we have our current iteration. And people still complain they want to save trait lines because 9 clicks is too hard.

Dilemma: Paying customer wants to water down your ideas as a developer. Do you listen to the players or stick to your guns? People complain GW2 seems reminiscent of older games but demanded the changes themselves.

No such thing as a happy mmo.

Honestly I think the traitlines got changed so that they could institute the elite spec system. It wouldn’t have worked with previous setup because they are exclusive of each other. The previous spec system would let you pick and choose things, and once they introduced the next elites, people would have been able to pick things from multiple elites. The way it is now, they can make them exclusive so each one is a separate elite spec, and couldn’t be combined.

I used to play a lot of Engi but now am back to exclusively Warrior because it’s less passive. It’s crazy that a class that used to get so much hate for basically one trait and one heal is now on the low end of passive play now. In fact my build that has gotten me to Diamond doesn’t use Defense or Healing Signet so it’s probably the most active build you can play in this power creep hell.

Modern Scrapper plays more like the old Warrior than Warrior currently does. I miss the old Static Discharge build that had very active sustain. I don’t even have to play well on meta Scrapper is PvP to be successful. I like the new trait system in theory, but the execution has done nothing but make the game easier. I want to live because I used my skills correctly, not because something auto triggered when I messed up.

Krysard.1364:

redcomyn.4651:

I don’t think there is anything passive about the scrapper. Not by a long shot. It is a very active playstyle. I am constantly jumping around, using the tool belt skills, and using the utilities. I really don’t understand the OP’s point here.

Lack of comboing skills. With rifle you had a complex and variable way to cc chain an enemy, now you just 5+3. And this applied to everything else

Well I run flamethrower instead of bulwark and I have fun CC / damage chains. I can do things like slickshoes, to wall O fire, to lightning field (while they still standing in wall O fire), to napalm to hammer 3, to wind pushy fire thing, to spin to win, to acid bomb leap

DGraves.3720:

The Scrapper is the herald of the return to basic combat roles. It is as boring as it was in the past when you ran a bruiser. That is, after all, the entire basis of the Scrapper.

Boring eh? Well the Scrapper is a bruiser and this may come as a surprise but the melee frontline hammer combat is actually very much appreciated by some people. I for one love it. I made an engi just because I can get that complete power bruiser look and feel now with the ironclad outfit and a hammer. Looks great, plays great and feels great.. and im not even talking about pvp.

I agree with everything the OP says. Engi used to be a really engaging class to play, but the implementation of scrapper has made it completely passive.

That along with the insanely stupid ability to survive 1vX makes the core engi cry tears of sadness.

I totally forgot I posted this… lol I come back and it’s still going. But now I’m gonna see if I can address some stuff I read in here.
1) I don’t run the meta because the meta is stupid. So those of you telling me to play something different, I have been
2) While I get that many appreciate being able to frontline as an engineer with the hammer, the issue I have with scrapper is it has too much tankiness and utility packed onto a weapon that also deals high damage. When you no longer need kit’s to have the extreme utility engi is famous for then there’s something wrong.
3) Scrapper takes 0 mechanical skill to play. I don’t care who you are or how many games you have played or about anything else you think is prestigious, there is no mechanical mastery visible in a scrapper player. Let’s visit back to the old cele rifle days real quick:
People like Chaith and Backpack were able to dominate most who fought them (except nos cause hardcounters are bad in games) because they possessed superior mechanical skill with their build. They timed their cc’s right with their enemies cd’s and followed up with damage combos. With scrapper you don’t need timing, you can literally spam every skill you have and still do well enough to play at the same level as the “pros”. I’m all for having alternative options but alternative=/= easier. Scrapper didn’t make alternatives, it just made everything easier.
4) Glad I’m not the only one who noticed scrapper made this class the most passive in the game…
5) Elite specs in general (no only scrapper) have no mechanical differences from the cores, they are pure upgrades. Scrapper is by definition better than the engineer and that is not how it should be. Some of the best engineers (I mean vanilla engis) have been beaten by scrappers with literally less than half of their skill level because scrapper is so loaded with forgiveness and free damage without requiring timing. You can’t come in and just say if engi is what you like then play it because part of having fun with what you’re playing in pvp is being competitive and successful. You can only outplay powercreep so much (believe me I have been through all that)

I also aggree with the OP. There are several reasons for this:
- Very direct and simple playstyle : Engineer used to be a very hard class to master, especially for PvP. The kit swapping, getting your fingers hurt, that was some amazing kitten . However with the scrapper it became too easy to survive while putting out some very good damage while barely swapping into kits. The effectiveness of the engineer skyrocketed, but it dramaticly decreased the skill level.
- Thematicly : I think alot of people disaggree with this, but I’m still posting it. I don’t think the scrapper fits the theme of the engineer. Okay not completely true, the gyro’s fit. But the hammer skills don’t in my opinion. As an engineer, I don’t think it fits to be a guy with a huge hammer and jump in a random fight. We are smart, have to outmanouver enemies. If you want to make a tank specialisation, why not inspire it by an actual tank? I mean, give engineer a high calibar brutal gun with CC’s but with lots of armor traits….
Hammer outshines all others : Personally I am a gunner guy. I loved using the rifles, hell even pistols. However it is sad to see that it is just not viable anymore. Yes you can play hammer, but you hammer heavily outshines it by a mile. Also the high sustain meta doesn’t really help the rifle, which became a pretty bad burst weapon.

I have not upgraded to HoT yet for this reason. I want my Engineer to be a ranged combat class that uses the tools and gadgets that s/he makes. So I buy HoT I have to go around hitting everyone with a hammer all the time, I might as well be a warrior.

I am not claiming the argument makes sense, just that it leads to the conclusion that I can carry on playing the engineer how I want which is all that is important to me. I will probably buy HoT anyway when I get to level 80 and start wanting to try the new areas (currently in the 70ties!). I am only interested in PvE, of course if I was in to PvP I would be using hammer builds like everyone else.

uhh..

condi engi doesnt change from core to hot, it just gets better gear (viper)… you dont really wanna use a hammer on it anyways.

power engi is approximately a wash between rifle and hammer unless youre under permaquickness (and then hammer is better), but thats something you only see in raids with any regularity. but without hot you miss out on a very synergistic flamethrower farming build (medium range), but you can do it 3/4 as good on just core anyways.

dont base your decision to buy hot on your dislike for hammer!!! thats silly!

I have to agree with insane. I have my engineer carry the hammer but I am now mostly using the flamethrower kit. It is great! It really burns them down. I am sure that it isn’t the best build, but it is good enough for me and I am having fun.

engi is no longer fun because of the current condi bunkers meta being such a hard shut down for engi

its even worse in WvW

Obtena.7952:

I think it’s a stretch to imply Anet allowed any role/class combination because of traits and they intended it. I’m more apt to say they didn’t want it to be a thing, which is probably why it’s not a thing now.

Actually even with the new system you can still do any role on any class.

Some classes just plain suck at certain roles more than other classes.

i.e you can make a defensive bunker thief, but you’d be better off running a bunker of pretty much any other class.

That doesn’t change my point or contradict what I said. The fact you can play any combination you want doesn’t mean that Anet implied it. In essence, you’re agreeing with my position on the topic. Not sure if that was your intent.