Guild Wars 2

The class isn’t bad but it also isn’t particularly good at any given thing. Looking at this has made me wonder if the complexity of the thing is good or bad or even intended. I think at some point analysis paralysis kicks in and choosing a good role to play is becoming harder and harder because everything can be done in a more or less mediocre way.

And I am looking beyond “damage” I’m afraid for those who want to bring up pure damage builds. The amount of technical skill required far outstrips the actual value of the damage because if you’re looking at damage numbers genuinely most don’t differ by but a few thousand. To illustrate my point let’s say we have an Condiiton Engineer who does 32k per second. We pit him against a Condition Necro who happens to only get 29k per second with significantly less effort.

Taking 1m HP as a base you just divide it down to get the number of seconds, right?

1,000,000 / 32,000 is 31.25s

1,000,000 / 29,000 is 34.5s

34.5 – 31.25 = 3.23s?

I can live with not having max DPS (I don’t do world records) at the cost of not getting a hand cramp.

I don’t want to say it because I’ve played the Engineer since the beginning but I haven’t played my Engineer seriously for almost 7 months now? It just isn’t worth the effort. I love the class and the concept of the class and used to love the skill level but eventually it just got out of hand and became more or less outmoded by builds on other classes that are significantly easier to pull off and just about as effective.

I’m not certain but I think a lot of players feel the same way about the Engineer so the question isn’t “how do I save it!” but rather just whether you think it really is going to be meaningful to be an Engineer past this point in development if something major doesn’t change.

I think, what we need, is a serious nerf, it’s that, or the community would not roll their eyes in engi, we arre defenitely one of the least popular classes, with almost the same pupulation as evenants, and revenants only have 1 year of being here, a patch that would outrage people of why leaving engi trash tier after not being a menace for so long.

That or see if the next expansion changes us in a significant way.

Max dps, hahahahaha… I assume this is about raiding and minmaxing. Well you see, you are talking about a single aspect of 1 of 3 game modes that like 5% of the population will bother to care about. In general PvE, WvW and sPvP your example is irrelevant. Engineer will easily survive 2017 as is. But if you think he’s not up to snuff in that single aspect… well bring another class then. Its not any harder than that. Engie doesnt need to hold the throne of easiest raiding class.

I’m not referring to raiding solely. I’m preempting the referral to raiding by stating that the class itself is difficult to play and the effort required for max damage is not valuable. This in turn also applies to other game modes; you can do many things far more easily in WvWvW, PvP, PvE, Fractals, etc. with other classes and less effort and investment.

This goes beyond damage into just playability.

Dawdler.8521:

In general PvE, WvW and sPvP your example is irrelevant.

Engineer isn’t a meta profession in WvW or PvP, either. The concern is absolutely warranted.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Dawdler.8521:

In general PvE, WvW and sPvP your example is irrelevant.

Engineer isn’t a meta profession in WvW or PvP, either. The concern is absolutely warranted.

Sorry, but engi is fine in pvp, defenitely with no flexible builds but it is, whats our concern here? stay in the meta (in a meh level, but in), or shine at least in 1 patch even if it means getting hardly nerfed in the next one

Engineer is fine, just like all the other classes. The problem is we have one group of people who declare what is meta, another group that follows that group religiously, and then the vast majority of everyone else who doesn’t care and is playing GW2 at this very minute just to have fun.

“Noo, get outta here!? I don’t believe it!” you say.

“Yeppers! People do actually play games for fun and not competition. And boy oh boy, the engineer is a bag full of fun for all content! No piano lessons required!”

Ivantreil.3092:

Sorry, but engi is fine in pvp, defenitely with no flexible builds but it is, whats our concern here? stay in the meta (in a meh level, but in), or shine at least in 1 patch even if it means getting hardly nerfed in the next one

You realize engi can be “fine” in PvP without being a meta profession? Nothing you said here really overturns my belief in that existence.

Engineers prior to the Celestial amulet being added brought raw damage with GK/TK condi, Static Discharge, and 100nade. After the Celestial amulet was added we transitioned into a more decap/bunker role with the rifle and with FT/TK, one that we held pretty firmly for two plus years. ArenaNet buffed and nerfed engi survivability for years based on the existence of the Celestial amulet, and when they finally removed it and put out the pre-HoT trait overhaul in 2015, they did little to address the big gaping hole that needed to be filled.

Over the years we lost Speedy Kits, we lost perma vigor, we lost pairing Backpack Regenerator with Self-Regulating Defenses, and Automated Medical Response had its cooldown lengthened; since the introduction of Heart of Thorns Slick Shoes was annihilated, Rocket Charge lost a leap finisher, Rapid Regeneration lost over 100 HPS, and our utility gyros no longer daze.

Engineer has always been a pretty mediocre profession outside of high level fractals in PvE and I kinda resigned us to that fate after making suggestion after suggestion and even having a number of conversations with developers in-game at multiple points citing my problems with the profession and their shared grievances. We never have been particularly great in WvW either, but with warrior being pretty mediocre now we finally bring more to a zerg than a Magnet pull. We’re still not meta, but I have to admit I think we’re performing “fine” in WvW, which is better than how things used to be.

The one area of the game I’ve always relied on ANet making engineer valuable, however, is in PvP. But the engineer has never been more frustrating to play than it is today, and the only thing keeping scrapper viable is having to take all three of our defensive trees and praying for Rampage; meanwhile I can run a Berserker amulet on my warrior with more blocks, invulns, evades, and condi cleanses that I have on my engineer while Arc Dividing people for 6-8K on repeat.

We’ve just simply been left behind, and it’s hilarious how easy it is to tie up a 1v2 at home/far while running DPS sigils and baseline toughness on my druid compared to how things go on my scrapper in Paladin/Melandru with Inventions/Alchemy/Scrapper together.

We counter nobody anymore, and that’s why we’re no longer a part of the meta. The number of pro league players still maining engi can be counted on one hand, and many of the better engineers this game like Teldo, Chaith, and Koroshi are long gone for much of the above reasons.

I have heard rumblings that a big balance change is incoming for us in the near future, but I have little faith that ArenaNet still really knows themselves what they want us to be.

We’re nothing but a walking ambulance this season, and if that’s your definition of “fine” or even “meta” performance, I have to ask how long you’ve been playing this game and how well you know how much more this profession is capable of when properly designed.

Either way I will kick butt in WvW and PvP with my build I have been using for almost 2 years. Was never meta (or close to) until very recently (and it’s still different enough). I had a scrapper that was able to easily 2v1 and could def 3v1, however anet took a big ol metal bat and beat it to death (RIP Bunker Busting Butthead). Since then, ive never really went back to scrapper…just my vanilla engi.

Pvp – for me “boring fine”. Gold age of SD, 100nades.…
Wvw – in some scenarios master of solo roaming.
Pve – why bring engi if we bring only some blinds. Our fun gyro should have effect on live ally.…

Engi survive, but engi community start lower population.…

Phineas Poe.3018:

Ivantreil.3092:

Sorry, but engi is fine in pvp, defenitely with no flexible builds but it is, whats our concern here? stay in the meta (in a meh level, but in), or shine at least in 1 patch even if it means getting hardly nerfed in the next one

You realize engi can be “fine” in PvP without being a meta profession? Nothing you said here really overturns my belief in that existence.

Engineers prior to the Celestial amulet being added brought raw damage with GK/TK condi, Static Discharge, and 100nade. After the Celestial amulet was added we transitioned into a more decap/bunker role with the rifle and with FT/TK, one that we held pretty firmly for two plus years. ArenaNet buffed and nerfed engi survivability for years based on the existence of the Celestial amulet, and when they finally removed it and put out the pre-HoT trait overhaul in 2015, they did little to address the big gaping hole that needed to be filled.

Over the years we lost Speedy Kits, we lost perma vigor, we lost pairing Backpack Regenerator with Self-Regulating Defenses, and Automated Medical Response had its cooldown lengthened; since the introduction of Heart of Thorns Slick Shoes was annihilated, Rocket Charge lost a leap finisher, Rapid Regeneration lost over 100 HPS, and our utility gyros no longer daze.

Engineer has always been a pretty mediocre profession outside of high level fractals in PvE and I kinda resigned us to that fate after making suggestion after suggestion and even having a number of conversations with developers in-game at multiple points citing my problems with the profession and their shared grievances. We never have been particularly great in WvW either, but with warrior being pretty mediocre now we finally bring more to a zerg than a Magnet pull. We’re still not meta, but I have to admit I think we’re performing “fine” in WvW, which is better than how things used to be.

The one area of the game I’ve always relied on ANet making engineer valuable, however, is in PvP. But the engineer has never been more frustrating to play than it is today, and the only thing keeping scrapper viable is having to take all three of our defensive trees and praying for Rampage; meanwhile I can run a Berserker amulet on my warrior with more blocks, invulns, evades, and condi cleanses that I have on my engineer while Arc Dividing people for 6-8K on repeat.

We’ve just simply been left behind, and it’s hilarious how easy it is to tie up a 1v2 at home/far while running DPS sigils and baseline toughness on my druid compared to how things go on my scrapper in Paladin/Melandru with Inventions/Alchemy/Scrapper together.

We counter nobody anymore, and that’s why we’re no longer a part of the meta. The number of pro league players still maining engi can be counted on one hand, and many of the better engineers this game like Teldo, Chaith, and Koroshi are long gone for much of the above reasons.

I have heard rumblings that a big balance change is incoming for us in the near future, but I have little faith that ArenaNet still really knows themselves what they want us to be.

We’re nothing but a walking ambulance this season, and if that’s your definition of “fine” or even “meta” performance, I have to ask how long you’ve been playing this game and how well you know how much more this profession is capable of when properly designed.

Yes, ill be honest, i didnt entered the pvp scene until season 2, did play scrapper that season and season 3 with scrapper too, then i got tired of scrapper and started to play stuff that wasnt scrapper, played condi engi the whole 4th season, and now, only rifle engi this season, currently stuck at gold.

I’ll give you the props that i didn’t had the chance to experrience the old engi (did manage to experience marauder rifle) and that you have more experience…

Clap, have nothing else to say, you have a great statement to be mad of our current situation….. we willl still be engies no matter what happen us tough.

engieneer is like the medium version of guardian, close enough to the right spot considering the other classes,

There are alot of things I wanna change about engineers but w/e

I’m sure ‘being part of meta’ is not Anet’s way of measuring whether a class is ‘fine’ or not … so when you look at it that way, you are looking at it with the wrong perspective.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Ivantreil.3092:

Sorry, but engi is fine in pvp, defenitely with no flexible builds but it is, whats our concern here? stay in the meta (in a meh level, but in), or shine at least in 1 patch even if it means getting hardly nerfed in the next one

You realize engi can be “fine” in PvP without being a meta profession? Nothing you said here really overturns my belief in that existence.

Engineers prior to the Celestial amulet being added brought raw damage with GK/TK condi, Static Discharge, and 100nade. After the Celestial amulet was added we transitioned into a more decap/bunker role with the rifle and with FT/TK, one that we held pretty firmly for two plus years. ArenaNet buffed and nerfed engi survivability for years based on the existence of the Celestial amulet, and when they finally removed it and put out the pre-HoT trait overhaul in 2015, they did little to address the big gaping hole that needed to be filled.

Phineas, the past few years have been crazy man. It hasn’t just been you who has seen the decline of the engie. I saw it from the very moment they did the trait revamp. People thought I was just jumping the gun because the trait revamp hadn’t arrived yet at the time but the fact remains I was right, the explosives line sucks, the fire-arms line is mediocre and with all the blocks, blinds and CC and condis in the game, an engie player is literally NOTHING without Alchemy.

Suggestion after suggestion, patch after patch, nothing after nothing. All we can do is hope and wait. If all they do is increase damage on jump shot again, imma lose my cool….

Obtena.7952:

I’m sure ‘being part of meta’ is not Anet’s way of measuring whether a class is ‘fine’ or not … so when you look at it that way, you are looking at it with the wrong perspective.

Being a part of the meta is a measurement of a profession’s general health. It’s OK for a class to be mediocre in a certain aspect of the game so long as it shines somewhere, but being a mediocre to bad choice in literally every aspect of this game’s content is simply untenable.

I think necromancer is the genuine best example of this, from 2012 to 2017. It’s a class that relies heavily on boon and condition manipulation; almost by design, it never was very good in PvE, but it’s almost always been a viable if not meta profession at all levels of play in PvP and WvW because of how it was designed.

The engineer, too, suffers a similar fate. Like the necromancer, our primary strength is better catered to PvP/WvW in that we’re by and large a crowd control/support profession. We certainly had our moments in PvE where we dished out top tier DPS, but the one constant with regard to the engineer, whether it was running pistol/shield, rifle, FT/TK condi, or whatever, is that we dish out a lot of hard (e.g., pull, push, launch) and soft (e.g., chill, cripple, immobilize) CC coupled with amazing group support in the Healing Turret and Elixir Gun.

It’s why when Celestial became a thing we catapulted straight to the top. And it’s why when ArenaNet “fixed” stability access with Heart of Thorns, with the staggering amount of CC we provided between gyro dazes, Slick Shoes, and Rocket Charge, we finally became a valued profession in WvW.

But since Heart of Thorns not only did our status in PvP and WvW absolutely decline, our momentary brilliance in raids, the one real time engineer was actually valued as a T1 profession in PvE, has since become outshone by easier-to-play condi builds and ANet’s negligence to design most fights like the Vale Guardian.

You can choose to ignore the meta and think it’s fine that engineer isn’t a part of it in any aspect of the game, but understand that ArenaNet balances the game around the meta. You also have to understand that I am not a casual player regarding this game or the engineer itself. I have over 7,000 hours played on this game since it launched in 2012—with over 4,000 of that being on my engineer.

I have three legendaries on my engineer: Predator, HOPE, and Juggernaut. I participated in every major LS1 event on my engineer. I completed every dungeon, fractal, and raid boss prior to my quitting in January of 2016 on my engineer. I farmed 50s on my engineer, even when we weren’t really that valued. I completed the “dungeoneer” title primarily on my engineer, even if I’d get kicked from most pug groups for playing it. I’ve got more kills in WvW on my engineer than any other class, even when all we contributed was a Magnet pull that didn’t even work half the time. And I’ve got 3,095 PvP matches played on my engineer.

My second-most played profession in PvP is warrior with 285 games.

My third-most played profession is the necromancer with 60.

This is why if you see me in PvP on anything but my engineer I’m absolutely trash with it. But I’m also trash on my engineer now for not really playing this game much over the past 2 years, instead devoting my time to ArcheAge, BDO, and WoW: Legion because ANet drags their feet regarding what they want to do with us.

My perspective is only from someone who wants to be successful playing the profession I love, which is the only profession that I truly enjoy playing enough to keep me coming back.

If the engineer didn’t exist, I never would’ve even come back after I had quit ArcheAge back in 2015.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Obtena.7952:

I’m sure ‘being part of meta’ is not Anet’s way of measuring whether a class is ‘fine’ or not … so when you look at it that way, you are looking at it with the wrong perspective.

Being a part of the meta is a measurement of a profession’s general health.

What makes you think that has anything to with Anet’s idea of a profession’s general health? Not being obtuse here but I don’t think meta is a significant factor in a profession’s general health because the concept that meta and healthy profession don’t necessarily have to coincide.

now obviously Anet probably would like people to play Eng as they probably think it has something interesting to offer in terms of gameplay (that’s the whole point of having many classes) but I don’t see how not being meta prevents people from choosing the class to play it because it’s playstyle appeals to them. That’s completely meta-independent, yet it’s a very important consideration when assessing profession health.

I would start to worry about Engi profession health if some other profession started encroaching on the things that make them unique as a class.

TLDR: If a class offers a playstyle that is primarily unique in the game, people will play it regardless of it’s meta status. People playing a class they like because of playstyle indicates a healthy class. Chasing meta is a waste of Anet’s investment.

To be blunt Obtena if a class has no “meta-value” what this means is that the playerbase is majorly ignoring it. What “meta” is a symptom of is popularity. The lower the meta-value the lesser the popularity and, often in the eyes of the general public, relevance. So in turn what you call “chasing meta” is actually more akin to “measuring popular approval and interest”.

If there’s no interest there’s no meta-build because no one is making the communal effort to rework, tweak, calculate, etc.

Meta is related more to optimization than it is popularity. If there was no reason to optimize in this game, there would be no meta but people will always end up playing the class that they like playing. This should be obvious at this point because meta changes all the time; it’s a response by players to the state of the game.

The idea that Eng isn’t popular because it doesn’t have meta-value is held only by people who care only about how the Eng stands in the meta. The only part of the playerbase that majorly ignores classes that don’t have meta-value is the SUBSET of the whole playerbase that cares about it. Maybe this will surprise you … people don’t always choose a class because of where it stands in the meta. Meta-value is not the only way to kitten class health. I don’t even think it’s the primary one.

Frankly, i think ‘not being meta’ is a kitten poor reason to do anything to a class. I don’t get the point of trying to chase the meta for the subset of players that put such an emphasis on it, especially when it changes with other game changes and when players can play whatever class they want. It’s a fools errand to do such a thing.

Obtena.7952:

Meta is related more to optimization than it is popularity. If there was no reason to optimize in this game, there would be no meta. This should be obvious at this point because meta changes all the time; it’s a response by players to the state of the game.

The idea that Eng isn’t popular because it doesn’t have meta-value is held only by people who care only about how the Eng stands in the meta. The only part of the playerbase that majorly ignores classes that don’t have meta-value is the SUBSET of the whole playerbase that cares about it. Maybe this will surprise you … people don’t always choose a class because of where it stands in the meta. Meta-value is not the only way to kitten class health. I don’t even think it’s the primary one.

You’re reading into it backwards. You don’t optimize things you don’t care about, right? So if there’s no optimization effort (meta) then no one cares about it. This is reflected in stats about who mains Engineer which has been lower all along. The number of major contributors etc. to Engineers versus other classes is significantly lower.

Because no one actually cares about class health. What’s really happening is we care about social place. Most players who play the game intend to do so with other players hence why you get questions about “roles” and “viability”. Can you play any class you want in Nomad’s armor? Yes. Are you going to be considered a great player when grouping up? No. You’ll be a liability. The truth of the matter is that you have two questions:

1. Is the Engineer functional?

2. Is the Engineer group functional?

The answer to 1 is not answered by any meta. Hell it just has to work and respond properly. The answer to 2 is solely answered by player interest. It is the only way to really note how effective and sought after the class is. If the class is ill-sought then perhaps it needs to be tweaked or boosted as did happen with Scrapper but unfortunately overcompensation occurred for the rest of the Engineer core being still total and utter far too difficult to play crap.

Frankly, i think ‘not being meta’ is a kitten poor reason to do anything to a class. I don’t get the point of trying to chase the meta for the subset of players that put such an emphasis on it, especially when it changes with other game changes and when players can play whatever class they want. *It’s a fools errand to do such a thing. *

This is conditional.

If you want to run around in Raids for instance, that’s just what you want to do, then you need to have something recognizable. No, you don’t need a world class build or to break the record books but there are limits to what will and will not work. Again, you can’t show up to the party in Nomad’s. However for players like myself who often play alone the whole deal is turned on it’s head. What I think is important is going to differ and I won’t care at all what is meta when I’m in Bitterfrost Frontier.

You’re post confirms what I suspect … people that make the game about meta only care about meta. Engi is both functional, by itself and in groups. It’s only when you introduce meta into that equation that you lessen the value of the class. Again, if you only see a class for it’s meta-value, then of course your only going to kitten a class and it’s performance against how it stacks up in the meta. Unfortunately, the game is so much more than that. So Ok, for some people this is everything, so I won’t debate that but that leads to my next point.

There is nothing conditional about the folly of chasing meta as a game developer. YOu might think I’m being glib by saying there are other classes you can play if Eng falls out of favour, but that is the answer, especially for the people that only care about meta status. There is no reasonable approach for Anet to ensure that every class that ’isn’t meta’ is made meta every time the game changes, just so people can play the class they want and get the highest levels of performance. Ideally sure, we would have that but over 4 years later, we don’t. That’s not just GW2 either. It’s prevalent in lots of MMOs with a diverse range of classes. I will leave it to you to think about why that is.

Obtena.7952:

TLDR: If a class offers a playstyle that is primarily unique in the game, people will play it regardless of it’s meta status.

Sorry, but no. This isn’t Pillars of Eternity or Dragon Age. This isn’t some single-player game where you can RP/theorycraft to your heart’s content and think you’ll be successful just because a build is “unique.” This is an online game, and the majority of what you will do is group-based content that depends on teamwork and cooperation to succeed. And ArenaNet balances the game based on the results of what the community puts together. Underrepresented classes are buffed. Overrepresented classes are nerfed.

Raids, fractals, ranked PvP, and WvW allow you to play whatever you want, but you’ll only get so far playing something that’s not a part of the meta. I can jump into unranked and screw around with a PPHGH build, but there’s absolutely no way someone could actually replicate any level of success playing that build over the scrapper meta build in ranked PvP. If people go into a raid environment with triple mantra mesmers and condi elementalists you won’t even clear the first boss of the first wing.

“Meta” isn’t just some made-up term by elitists to shut you out of content. It’s there because the content requires it; the meta is literally a visual representation of game knowledge. Certain bosses have certain mechanics that need to be responded to. Certain classes run certain builds that have to be countered. You can’t run a boonshare build vs. a necromancer and think you’re going to come out of that 1v1 alive, and you’re not killing
Gorseval with a bunch of players clocking at ~10K DPS each.

Engineer wasn’t just magically a member of the meta overnight when Heart of Thorns launched. It was the stars aligning of ArenaNet introducing breakbars and the existence of our Slick Shoes that catapulted us to the top of the tier list. It was the fact that bosses like Vale Guardian depend on condi damage to be killed, and we were at the time the best at it.

Engineer didn’t just fall out of favor for no reason. ArenaNet failed to replicate Vale Guardian type bosses in future content, essentially nullifying the need for condi builds for most of wing 2 and 3, and they completely destroyed whatever utility Slick Shoes had. What we brought to raids simply became less valuable.

Players that ignore the meta or devalue it simply devalue their own game knowledge and prefer a state of ignorance. It’ll get you map completion and it might get you carried through a few dungeons, but if you want to do any meaningful endgame content in Guild Wars 2 like Fractal 100 challenge motes, raids, ranked PvP, or T1/T2 WvW, you have to be aware of and be a participant of the meta.

The engineer outside of a few raid bosses is currently not a part of that. The engineer has historically not been a part of it outside of PvP. And for that reason we have always lagged behind every other class in the game in terms of population, sometimes by a factor of 1:2.

Obtena.7952:

You’re post confirms what I suspect … people that make the game about meta only care about meta. Engi is both functional, by itself and in groups. It’s only when you introduce meta into that equation that you lessen the value of the class. Again, if you only see a class for it’s meta-value, then of course your only going to kitten a class and it’s performance against how it stacks up in the meta. Unfortunately, the game is so much more than that. So Ok, for some people this is everything, so I won’t debate that but that leads to my next point.

There is nothing conditional about the folly of chasing meta as a game developer. YOu might think I’m being glib by saying there are other classes you can play if Eng falls out of favour, but that is the answer, especially for the people that only care about meta status. There is no reasonable approach for Anet to ensure that every class that ’isn’t meta’ is made meta every time the game changes, just so people can play the class they want and get the highest levels of performance. Ideally sure, we would have that but over 4 years later, we don’t. That’s not just GW2 either. It’s prevalent in lots of MMOs with a diverse range of classes. I will leave it to you to think about why that is.

You’re getting it completely wrong Obtena. The people complaining about how the Engie compares to the meta don’t necessarily want it to be meta. For instance, everyone says base necro is bad, and it currently isn’t meta in PvP. Yet, I’m currently playing it with great success beating everything currently in the meta. Then there’s the Engie, it is meta in PvP but it still can’t guaranteed-ly do anything substantially well (apart from rezzing i guess) which becomes a liability overtime.

Yes, “Meta or not meta” is not a good measurement for whether a class should be buffed or not, i agree with that but when even the non-meta builds suck…. you have a problem.

i dont frequently agree with dgraves but this time, yeah… being outclassed in the meta is an indication of unhealthiness.

Dirame.8521:

You’re getting it completely wrong Obtena. The people complaining about how the Engie compares to the meta don’t necessarily want it to be meta. For instance, everyone says base necro is bad, and it currently isn’t meta in PvP. Yet, I’m currently playing it with great success beating everything currently in the meta. Then there’s the Engie, it is meta in PvP but it still can’t guaranteed-ly do anything substantially well (apart from rezzing i guess) which becomes a liability overtime.

Yes, “Meta or not meta” is not a good measurement for whether a class should be buffed or not, i agree with that but when even the non-meta builds suck…. you have a problem.

The problem with engineer at the moment is that while it’s incredibly effective at securing stomps and resses through Final Salvo and the Function Gyro, it is not at all effective at actually keeping people on your team alive as well as a druid/elementalist can or is it as effective at actually putting the other team into down state as well as a guardian, warrior, necromancer, revenant, mesmer, or thief are.

To some degree I think this was intentional, as most of the DPS builds floating around in PvP are actually pretty terrible at stomping. But it puts us in the situation to where we are absolutely reliant on the other 4 players on our team for our contribution to shine the brightest. And with a solo/duo queue system, you have to opt toward a build that is essentially able to “carry”—and as things are, the engineer is probably the weakest “carry” profession in PvP right now.

Support/healer classes can “carry” to some extent by keeping other people alive and essentially overlooking/fixing their mistakes through raw healing potential. As such, bad DPS can survive with an elementalist or druid on their team, especially if the other team lacks the same amount of sustain and/or has support that rotates poorly. Good DPS on the other hand can absolutely carry, and if you’re intelligent about counter-classing (e.g., swapping to DH vs. heavy melee comps or swapping to warrior vs. heavy necro comps) you can essentially cruise to platinum and potentially legend.

Being someone that can essentially res people at range while securing a stomp through Final Salvo or Elixir S is incredibly valuable. I do see us an effective tide-turner for that reason. But it’s far more useful to play a class that actually keeps teammates alive or double-downs the opposition more efficiently. Ideally speaking, it’s best that your allies never enter downed stated in the first place, and the engineer lacks the ability to do any such thing outside of condition cleanses with Fumigate.

To only further exacerbate the problem right now, the engineer doesn’t hard-counter anyone 1v1 right now. We should conceptually counter DH but we really don’t because half their kitten is unblockable, and we used to counter thieves before they got staff but now they can just kite/sustain no problem. They even have access to BLOCKS now. Like seriously: what the kitten.

We survive most 1v1s no problem, but the simple fact of the matter is that we aren’t efficient at killing anybody the way a necro is vs. druid, a warrior is vs. necro, or a guardian is vs. warrior.

The only way I’m currently progressing back into the top 250 after crashing to gold last week is by dropping the Purge Gyro and running a kitten decap build with Blast Gyro and Elixir X. But good players dodge Blast Gyro and kite Elixir X, so I have no idea how high I’m going to climb with this setup or when I’m going to hit a hard wall like I have with every other build I’ve attempted.

I honestly don’t play as much as I used to, though I have thousands of hours on my Engi and it is my most-played class. I dislike the Scrapper playstyle, so I stick with Rifle but it isn’t viable any more.

I know every button press, every trait, every skill on my build like the back of my hand. I know my kit cooldowns instinctively. I know my matchups with other classes and how they should be countered.

… but for all that, it doesn’t help at all vs the meta builds. I can’t beat a stance zerker with my rifle engi unless they are absolutely terrible at warrior. Can’t cc them. Can’t out-damage their healing – just have to run.

I fold to condi mesmer because my defense is all button-presses and mobility, which takes double damage from torment and confusion.

I die to thief because Basi Venom goes right through my Gear Shield even when I anticipate the Steal.

This is frustrating. What’s more frustrating is that I can hop on Warrior (which I barely know), spec Stance Zerker, and go wreck people 1v3 without even paying attention to my health. I can jump on DH (which I also barely know), spam allthetraps + virtues and get easy kills.

DGraves.3720:

It just isn’t worth the effort. I love the class and the concept of the class and used to love the skill level but eventually it just got out of hand and became more or less outmoded by builds on other classes that are significantly easier to pull off and just about as effective.

and this is what happened with engineer

From a WvW roaming/small scale perspective Scrapper is down the list of desired classes. The main meta roamers you will find will be thieves they have at least 4 viable builds. Warriors who with adrenal health proc are ticking nearly 1k healing per second in WvW. And of course condi chrono.

Given comparable skill levels you are dieing to all these classes, sure if you spec defensively it might take them some time. And some classes you have no hope like a condi necro.

The alchemy line is mandatory it seems in every viable spec. Not only is it mandatory but it is the same 3 traits, Protection Injection, Self Regulating Defense, HGH. the explosives line is abysmal and needs a rewrite of traits, thermobaric detonation lol.

The biggest thing i notice coming from playing my other classes is cast times on literally everything for the Engineer. I feel a lot of the tool belt abilities could lose their cast times which would improve play-ability immensely. Does chemical field and bypass coating really need cast times? Do the toss elixir’s really need cast times? You are already taking time to place the AoE marker on the ground and the animation time as the elixir travels to it’s destination.

I can use all the shouts on my Guard with 0 cast time, even test of faith has 0 cast time. Shield of courage has 0 cast time and for base guard all the virtues are instant. Every meditation is instant, wall of reflection is instant. All the mesmer f1-f5’s are instant, blink and decoy are instant, mirror images is instant, feedback and veil are instant all mantras once charged are instant.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Obtena.7952:

TLDR: If a class offers a playstyle that is primarily unique in the game, people will play it regardless of it’s meta status.

Sorry, but no. This isn’t Pillars of Eternity or Dragon Age. This isn’t some single-player game where you can RP/theorycraft to your heart’s content and think you’ll be successful just because a build is “unique.”

You aren’t really paying attention then because you can do lots of things in some of the most unoptimized ways and be extremely successful in this game. You can even suck bad at PVP and get skins, etc… Again, you’re only seeing this game through your definition of what’s important … and Anet doesn’t necessarily share your vision about that. Remember, meta is not Anet’s creation; it’s something players concocted. It’s really unreasonable that you kitten Anet’s development against this narrow definition of ‘success’, then expect them to adopt it and agree with the idea that Eng is bad because ‘not-meta’. There is nothing compelling about that proposal.

You still didn’t address the fact that chasing meta is fundamentally a stupid thing for a game dev to do in the first place, even if they do measure class success as meta or not.

Obtena.7952:

You’re post confirms what I suspect … people that make the game about meta only care about meta. Engi is both functional, by itself and in groups. It’s only when you introduce meta into that equation that you lessen the value of the class. Again, if you only see a class for it’s meta-value, then of course your only going to kitten a class and it’s performance against how it stacks up in the meta. Unfortunately, the game is so much more than that. So Ok, for some people this is everything, so I won’t debate that but that leads to my next point.

Let’s get one thing clear. The proposition you’re making is completely false. As a matter of fact it is quite literally the opposite of what I’m trying to propose; the engineer is so difficult to play that it isn’t meta because it is not fun. You do not maintain “least popular class” for years in a row because you’re a blast to play.

You’re taking a symptom (something being inherently unpopular) and applying it as the disease (player’s opinions are just founded on social popularity) which is backwards.

There is nothing conditional about the folly of chasing meta as a game developer. YOu might think I’m being glib by saying there are other classes you can play if Eng falls out of favour, but that is the answer, especially for the people that only care about meta status. There is no reasonable approach for Anet to ensure that every class that ’isn’t meta’ is made meta every time the game changes, just so people can play the class they want and get the highest levels of performance. Ideally sure, we would have that but over 4 years later, we don’t. That’s not just GW2 either. It’s prevalent in lots of MMOs with a diverse range of classes. I will leave it to you to think about why that is.

Have you ever been on any form of development team? Like even just making a basic card game for children won’t work with this approach. “Oh, you don’t like the rules? Well, you can always just not play!”

Um…

You’re proposition is simply an opinion. Certainly, some people will feel that way though, but that’s neither here nor there. You’re claims are unsubstantiated and can even be viewed as sensational. You have no idea how popular the class is or not. It’s quite irrelevant anyways. If you think Anet tries to target some popularity level with each class, then it is you that has this wrong. Anet makes various classes available to provide different styles of play, not to make it harder for them to make them all popular with players. I don’t suspect for a second Anet cares about the popularity of any class, as long as players who play it do so for the right reasons. Clearly, if you’re miserable playing it, you haven’t chosen the class for the right reasons.

yes I have been involved with a development team … and to be clear, your analogy is nonsense because in this game, you do have choice … the choice of class. It’s not black and white like play or don’t play. Ignore it if you will, but the reason there are classes with various kinds of gameplay options is exactly to avoid situations where players are locking into playing a class they don’t like, for whatever the reason.

Will Engi survive 2017 if it’s not meta .. it sure will, because people choose to play it for reasons that aren’t related to meta. Perhaps the question is if meta players will recognize that it’s more reasonable for them to chase the meta with good class choice instead of Anet failing to chase meta into their game state and class development.

Obtena.7952:

You aren’t really paying attention then because you can do lots of things in some of the most unoptimized ways and be extremely successful in this game. You can even suck bad at PVP and get skins, etc…

That’s because the system is set up in a way that you can lose every single game you play and still get unique skins and 5/6ths of an ascended armor set. That doesn’t mean that’s a desirable play experience or anything you should actively strive for.

Some of us actually want to win the game we play and actually place well on the leaderboard. There are a number of ESL-level players that are finding effectiveness with the engineer, but it’s no secret that it’s far easier to solo-queue your way to the top 250 on pretty much any other profession that’s not the engineer for reasons I’ve mentioned in this thread and in others—talking points that you continue to ignore.

Obtena.7952:

Again, you’re only seeing this game through your definition of what’s important … and Anet doesn’t necessarily share your vision about that. Remember, meta is not Anet’s creation; it’s something players concocted. It’s really unreasonable that you kitten Anet’s development against this narrow definition of ‘success’, then expect them to adopt it and agree with the idea that Eng is bad because ‘not-meta’. There is nothing compelling about that proposal.

Unreasonable? Please. Now you’re actually being obtuse.

First of all, it’s not unreasonable to ask for us to have more identity than a slow-footed ambulance in PvP, and it’s not unreasonable to think an engineer should provide something unique to a raid group that makes them desirable when pretty much every class in the meta either dishes out top tier DPS or provides something unique.

Even the revenant, a class that’s pretty mediocre in every aspect of the game equally to the engineer, still offers Assassin’s Presence, a unique +150 ferocity buff to nearby allies. An engineer can stack might fairly effectively for their raids, but what does it matter when warriors can do exactly the same with higher group DPS with banners? This is what the meta is about, and this is entirely what you’re failing to understand; “unique” and “fun” builds certainly have their place, but when you need another 15K DPS out of your raid group to clear Gorseval after wiping for three hours, no one is going to swap to a necromancer.

Second of all, I never even said engi was bad. I said it’s not a part of the meta-game. As I said earlier, engineer can absolutely be “fine” but not be a part of the meta. It can be essentially a balanced profession without actually contributing anything unique in PvE or be completely edged out by more specialized professions in PvP, which is pretty much where we’re at right now.

Obtena.7952:

You’re proposition is simply an opinion. Certainly, some people will feel that way though, but that’s neither here nor there. You’re claims are unsubstantiated and can even be viewed as sensational. You have no idea how popular the class is or not. It’s quite irrelevant anyways. If you think Anet tries to target some popularity level with each class, then it is you that has this wrong. Anet makes various classes available to provide different styles of play, not to make it harder for them to make them all popular with players. I don’t suspect for a second Anet cares about the popularity of any class, as long as players who play it do so for the right reasons. Clearly, if you’re miserable playing it, you haven’t chosen the class for the right reasons.

yes I have been involved with a development team … and to be clear, your analogy is nonsense because in this game, you do have choice … the choice of class. It’s not black and white like play or don’t play. Ignore it if you will, but the reason there are classes with various kinds of gameplay options is exactly to avoid situations where players are locking into playing a class they don’t like, for whatever the reason.

Will Engi survive 2017 if it’s not meta .. it sure will, because people choose to play it for reasons that aren’t related to meta. Perhaps the question is if meta players will recognize that it’s more reasonable for them to chase the meta with good class choice instead of Anet failing to chase meta into their game state and class development.

That’s not the question I even asked. As a matter of fact you’re more caught up on the topic of the engineer being meta than I ever was. I looked at the polls, year over year, on Reddit to see the popularity of classes and who main’d what and so forth and so on and you can easily see a decline in interest in the Engineer. It’s a playerbase decision and phenomenon.

Do you even main Engineer?

And I will spare you the requirement of clarifying exactly what you did or developed since your understanding of marketing is … beyond words.

You still don’t get it … Classes exist to give you choice, not to challenge Anet to make them equally popular through equivalent game performance. It’s just logic that not every class is equally popular, but it is folly to very simply attribute that to waning performance . So continually presenting popularity data as the reason that Engi is not a good class and needs attention is not compelling and not even really relevant.

This isn’t about marketing. If you were to ask me how the ‘marketing’ works to promote game balance, it’s the fact there are 9 classes that players can choose from to find the one they like to play the most. Even the fact there are so many classes available is enough to tell you that chasing meta isn’t their strategy for game balance. It’s too many.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Second of all, I never even said engi was bad. I said it’s not a part of the meta-game.

I don’t get why not being part of the meta game demands the attention the class needs from Anet. Anet doesn’t target ‘meta’ when they address class balance because it’s folly to do so … so the idea that ‘meta’ is compelling to them is nonsense. We know it’s not how they operate because we rarely see the kinds of changes that are needed to significantly move a class up that meta ranking ladder.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t get why not being part of the meta game demands the attention the class needs from Anet. Anet doesn’t target ‘meta’ when they address class balance because it’s folly to do so … so the idea that ‘meta’ is compelling to them is nonsense.

You don’t understand how a profession not being desirable in any aspect of the game demands attention by ArenaNet? Seriously? It’s pretty obvious to me you don’t really fully grasp the purpose behind the community developing the meta-game or ArenaNet’s honest relationship to at times uphold and at times overturn it.

ArenaNet balances this game entirely around the meta: by who’s in it, who isn’t, and what needs to be done to shift the positions of professions so they are more likely to end up in the former column in most game modes than the latter one.

I think I’m done replying to your posts. I don’t want to feel like a broken record repeating over the same talking points again and again.

Phineas Poe.3018:

You don’t understand how a profession not being desirable in any aspect of the game demands attention by ArenaNet?

I do, but being undesirable and being not-meta aren’t the same thing now are they. As far as I’m concerned, you have no reason to continue to respond to my posts if you want to ignore that being desireable as a class is more than just some meta rank. As long as Eng continues to offer a gameplay style that people like, it will get played.

Obtena.7952:

Phineas Poe.3018:

You don’t understand how a profession not being desirable in any aspect of the game demands attention by ArenaNet?

I do.

Then we’re done here, and there’s nothing really left to talk about. Everything else is just semantics mixed with opinion. You’re welcome to disagree with me and others regarding the state of the engineer, but the vast majority of us find it to be incredibly undesirable to play compared to previous iterations.

Engineer exacerbates my carpal tunnel in PvE and puts me to sleep in PvP/WvW. I legitimately zone out while playing scrapper in PvP. It wasn’t until I forced myself to run Marauder and Elixir S+X that I realized just how lazy a player I became in PvP because of how faceroll scrapper was before I quit.

Hey let’s be clear here. I don’t disagree that Eng isn’t in the best place but the argument that it needs love because ‘not popular’ and ‘not meta’ is just silly. It also doesn’t address any real deficiency with the class, since those things aren’t really issues.

Anyways, you’re a good example of what I’ve already stated … you need to find a class that works for you … there are 8 others you can choose from.

At least we can agree engie will require some attention next patch, Anet hasn’t achieved the changes they want for engie for sure, last patch didn’t move our situation or our builds, and that goes for every game mode, True, it was a small patch, but it did not achieve anything, i can expect some severe changes for engie next patch, either good or bad, let’s just hope they have put some attention to what is used and what is not at least.

Obtena.7952:

Hey let’s be clear here. I don’t disagree that Eng isn’t in the best place but the argument that it needs love because ‘not popular’ and ‘not meta’ is just silly. It also doesn’t address any real deficiency with the class, since those things aren’t really issues.

Anyways, you’re a good example of what I’ve already stated … you need to find a class that works for you … there are 8 others you can choose from.

Are you asking us to list the things wrong with the Engie because…..

- Buff Medkit: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Buff-Med-Kit

- Explosive Line sucks: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/The-Explosive-Line-isn-t-good-Here-s-why/first

And this entire Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4vuhtj/the_changes_that_need_to_happen_for_the_engineer/

Soo…. yea….

Obtena.7952:

Hey let’s be clear here. I don’t disagree that Eng isn’t in the best place but the argument that it needs love because ‘not popular’ and ‘not meta’ is just silly. It also doesn’t address any real deficiency with the class, since those things aren’t really issues.

Anyways, you’re a good example of what I’ve already stated … you need to find a class that works for you … there are 8 others you can choose from.

To say that makes literally no sense.

If you build the theoretically perfect class that no one enjoys playing then it doesn’t really matter that you’ve articulately crafted the theoretically perfect class.

The playerbase is the focus. It does not matter how the developer feels about what they are doing if the playerbase rejects it just like it doesn’t matter if you think you’ve designed a great game if everyone generally agrees that it’s terrible!

To ignore public opinion and state that there is objectivity in the design is … just a failure to understand how games and gaming and development of any product actually works. It’s useless if no one wants it. And fewer and fewer people do.

That’s a problem. That’s the definition of a problem!

As far as I am concerned you’re just trolling now.

Unfortunately Obtena, because Anet has decided to push harder forward in its PvP mode, it has to think about the competitive meta. Otherwise the competitive scene will grow stale and people will leave. Metas change when devs give players the tools to change it. Sitting on your hands and not addressing key issues with classes across the board in a competitive game will not help anything.

Chorazin.4107:

From a WvW roaming/small scale perspective Scrapper is down the list of desired classes. The main meta roamers you will find will be thieves they have at least 4 viable builds. Warriors who with adrenal health proc are ticking nearly 1k healing per second in WvW. And of course condi chrono.

Ironic, considering p/p scrapper is pretty much hardcounter to any cheesy thief build. They are also one of the best – if not the best – smallscale stompers in the game and a critical part of the group. Function gyro literally win fights, especially when outmanned.

But warrior hs+ah is OP as kitten and dire/trailblazer chrono too, true.

Dawdler.8521:

Ironic, considering p/p scrapper is pretty much hardcounter to any cheesy thief build. They are also one of the best – if not the best – smallscale stompers in the game and a critical part of the group. Function gyro literally win fights, especially when outmanned.

But warrior hs+ah is OP as kitten and dire/trailblazer chrono too, true.

Scrappers just dont seem to have a place in small scale compared to what else you can bring. It becomes a case of bring another of X class rather than bring a Scrapper when you are looking at limited slots of 5-6ppl.

Even if you are looking at say 5v5’s and adding rules to the engagement of no condi builds in the 5v5. They still dont have a place. You are looking at 3 core DPS slots of which 2 are probably going to be Zerkers, the last slot is most likely a Rev, or teef. The other two slots are your support Ele and DH which can be specced a number of ways as long as it is providing stab.

I have not tried a P/P Scrapper, i have tried a traditional P/P engineer condi build for roaming. But my main issue is clearing the teefies condis from death blossom spam. And the 6-7 dodge rolls from the hard to catch trait + signet of agility full endurance refresh. These will stack you full of condis from the lotus training and uncatchable traits.

Chorazin.4107:

Even if you are looking at say 5v5’s and adding rules to the engagement of no condi builds in the 5v5.

Then why on earth add that rule, lol.

I dont know where you play but the 5 man setups is far more sustain than that in EU T1 in my experience. Most of them behave like mini zergs, they generally dont bring zerkers. Securing stomps or outlasting the enemy is more important than bursts because glassy dps drop like flies to proper CC and sustain. And the scrapper excel at this because he can take the hit of a burst while friends retaliate.

Its only in 2-3 man gank squads dps is important enough to outweigh sustain. Then again their fights will be 3v1 most of the time so their overall effectiveness in equal fights can be debated.

Dawdler.8521:

Then why on earth add that rule, lol.

Most 5v5 groups dont want to fight against condi because of how busted it is rocking around in full trailblazers on every condi offensive class. So generally rules are laid down that it is power comp fights, not condi, if you are setting up skirmishes.

But even without that rule Scrapper still has no place in a 5v5, the condi sustain group will most likely be something like this 2 Condi Reapers and a Condi Rev backed by the usual support tempest/DH.

Dawdler.8521:

I dont know where you play but the 5 man setups is far more sustain than that in EU T1 in my experience. Most of them behave like mini zergs, they generally dont bring zerkers. Securing stomps or outlasting the enemy is more important than bursts because glassy dps drop like flies to proper CC and sustain. And the scrapper excel at this because he can take the hit of a burst while friends retaliate.

I play NA, have played from Tier one to Tier four, the guild im in likes to move around a lot looking for good match ups with fights.

For our condi comp I agree it is all about the sustain, but Scrapper doesnt have a place in a condi comp, at no point do you drop a 2nd, 3rd condi reaper for a Scrapper. Multiple epidemics are beyond broken, the more the better. Theres a whole thread on the WvW forum specifically talking about this. Not to mention all the boon corrupts from stacking condi reapers.

From a specific power comp perspective Zerkers have crazy sustain even if they are bursty, double invuln, heavy armour, max HP’s class with access to rousing resilience and unnerferd AH. Pulsing resistance and you can equip a shield if you feel you need it. Back them up with a healbot tempest and DH boons and it’s hard to come up with a sound reason for something else in those DPS slots. Maybe a Rev or teef could see some play?

for roaming condi chrono mesmer dire perpl is much better than scrapper / pp engi imho .

DGraves.3720:

I’m not referring to raiding solely. I’m preempting the referral to raiding by stating that the class itself is difficult to play

DGraves.3720:

the engineer is so difficult to play that it isn’t meta because it is not fun.

DGraves.3720:

the Engineer core being still total and utter far too difficult to play crap.

What is so hard about using F2, F3, F4, while spamming Bomb autoattack (which the game mostly does automatically), then once in awhile switching to rifle to burst #3 and #5 then spamming bomb autoattack again?

boom, 26-30k DPS on Golem.

Look, we have a lot of issues, but DPS is not one of them. Engi is one of the easiest high-dps classes in the game.

Kain Francois.4328:

DGraves.3720:

I’m not referring to raiding solely. I’m preempting the referral to raiding by stating that the class itself is difficult to play

DGraves.3720:

the engineer is so difficult to play that it isn’t meta because it is not fun.

DGraves.3720:

the Engineer core being still total and utter far too difficult to play crap.

What is so hard about using F2, F3, F4, while spamming Bomb autoattack (which the game mostly does automatically), then once in awhile switching to rifle to burst #3 and #5 then spamming bomb autoattack again?

boom, 26-30k DPS on Golem.

Look, we have a lot of issues, but DPS is not one of them. Engi is one of the easiest high-dps classes in the game.

Yep but why bring this build if tempest do it better. Why bring power bomb engi? Condi have his niche. Seeker control, spirit control…condi build offer great mob cc thanks to many blinds, immobilize and cc.

As bomb engi you shine on VG (but you will be condi here for green circle job), on gorse – tempest win (large target, orb clear) on sabetha you shine ok. At w2 engi not offer too much.

So , why you need engi, if other proffesions, make things better? We have great utilities, like land mine for boon strip and good cc, elixir U for projectile defense, rocket turret for some cc if need more cc, EG/elixir C for condi clearing – but theese skills are locked behind kits. If you need something, what your squad missing, you must pay by your dmg.

Phineas Poe.3018:

The one area of the game I’ve always relied on ANet making engineer valuable, however, is in PvP. But the engineer has never been more frustrating to play than it is today, and the only thing keeping scrapper viable is having to take all three of our defensive trees and praying for Rampage; meanwhile I can run a Berserker amulet on my warrior with more blocks, invulns, evades, and condi cleanses that I have on my engineer while Arc Dividing people for 6-8K on repeat.

Memory’s a little fuzzy, but during the same time Celestial/Marauder Rifle was king, wasn’t that also the heyday of the Warrior Shoutbow, which took traits exclusively from defensive trees + Discipline?

Now, I’m in no way saying Shoutbow had the same effectiveness (or lack thereof, depending on your opinion) to today’s Power Scrapper, but meta being all defensive trees does not in and of itself say that there is a problem with the profession.

That being said, if I’m going to be playing Mozart every fight, I’d like to be at least as effective in some one thing as an Ele (the other Mozart-playing profession) is at what they do well if I have the skill level to do it.

Obtena.7952:

Hey let’s be clear here. I don’t disagree that Eng isn’t in the best place but the argument that it needs love because ‘not popular’ and ‘not meta’ is just silly. It also doesn’t address any real deficiency with the class, since those things aren’t really issues.

Anyways, you’re a good example of what I’ve already stated … you need to find a class that works for you … there are 8 others you can choose from.

I seriously think you just lack understanding of what “the meta” is or how it operates.

You cannot say that the engineer needs buffs and then turn around and say that the argument it’s not a participant of the meta in any aspect of the game is “silly.” That it’s “not meta” is a direct consequence of its current status in PvP of offering literally nothing to the table except a res gyro—and in PvE absolutely nothing. Your response to this was the most absurd reply you could have come up with.

“Don’t like where the class you have over 4,000 hours on is? Play something else!”

Literal insanity.