Guild Wars 2

scorekeeper.6524:

Unfortunately Obtena, because Anet has decided to push harder forward in its PvP mode, it has to think about the competitive meta. Otherwise the competitive scene will grow stale and people will leave. Metas change when devs give players the tools to change it. Sitting on your hands and not addressing key issues with classes across the board in a competitive game will not help anything.

I don’t see that … or to be more clear, I don’t think Classes being pushed to a meta status relates to ensuring that the competitive scene doesn’t grow stale. In otherwords … Anet can achieve ‘fresh’ scene and still have one or more crappy PVP classes.

I never said Anet doesn’t make changes to the game that affect meta … obviously they do. What I’m talking about here is that I do not think Anet purposefully make game changes to impact the meta state in some direction, so using meta to appeal to Anet’s focus to fix Eng is way out of line. Basically, I don’t think Anet makes balance changes around what is and is not meta. The reason being because it’s folly to chase it.

Obtena.7952:

scorekeeper.6524:

Unfortunately Obtena, because Anet has decided to push harder forward in its PvP mode, it has to think about the competitive meta. Otherwise the competitive scene will grow stale and people will leave. Metas change when devs give players the tools to change it. Sitting on your hands and not addressing key issues with classes across the board in a competitive game will not help anything.

I don’t see that … or to be more clear, I don’t think Classes being pushed to a meta status relates to ensuring that the competitive scene doesn’t grow stale. In otherwords … Anet can achieve ‘fresh’ scene and still have one or more crappy PVP classes.

I never said Anet doesn’t make changes to the game that affect meta … obviously they do. What I’m talking about here is that I do not think Anet purposefully make game changes to impact the meta state in some direction, so using meta to appeal to Anet’s focus to fix Eng is way out of line. Basically, I don’t think Anet makes balance changes around what is and is not meta. The reason being because it’s folly to chase it.

It’s funny because you’re the only one here claiming we are “chasing a meta”.

DGraves said in the OP “I’m not certain but I think a lot of players feel the same way about the Engineer so the question isn’t “how do I save it!” but rather just whether you think it really is going to be meaningful to be an Engineer past this point in development if something major doesn’t change.”

I believe his original intent with the question was not “Argh! Anet fix my class!” but “If something doesn’t change soon, will I still main engie?” I think that’s a valid question to ask of a class that is very unique but very mediocre compared to others

I guess that’s because I’m the only one here that bothers to point it out … or is smart enough to understand what that even means. You see, it’s easier for people to ignore the truth of what I’m saying there because if they accept it, they realize how meaningless it is to justify fixes on the only thing that they think matters. /shrug

I mean, if the question here is will you main engi if something doesn’t change soon, that’s no much different than if you don’t change my class, I’m not happy and please fix it. I don’t see the difference.

Obtena.7952:

I guess that’s because I’m the only one here that bothers to point it out … or is smart enough to understand what that even means. You see, it’s easier for people to ignore the truth of what I’m saying there because if they accept it, they realize how meaningless it is to justify fixes on the only thing that they think matters. /shrug

I mean, if the question here is will you main engi if something doesn’t change soon, that’s no much different than if you don’t change my class, I’m not happy and please fix it. I don’t see the difference.

Amen.
There is so much bullkitten in this thread about engineer. Its funny how they improve on hiding their real intentions when making a thread. But back to engineer.

This class doesn’t suffer many problems. I am soon to hit legendary in this season, now I know thats purly anecdotel but I wont reach legendary status, by sucking at engineer right? Engineer can hold against most classes on a node: druid, mesmer, ele, theif, guardian, warrior. Now this is an anecdote again, but these classes I have listet, gives me no problems to hold a node permnantly and eventually kill them. I can talk more about how great engineer is in pvp whatever if its vanilla or hot build, but I don’t want to make a wall of text.

I am strictly talking about pvp mode.

Ryze.2891:

Engineer can hold against most classes on a node: druid, mesmer, ele, theif, guardian, warrior.

Druid, mesmer, and ele yes. Guardian is a washout based on what weapons they’re using. Staff thief when well played is also 50/50. Usually I just whittle them down and they leave. Good thieves don’t die needlessly.

But warrior? Absolutely not. You can 1v1 them, sure, but not “on point,” especially if they’re power.

I think rev is a substantially easier match-up than warrior, and they’re surprisingly left off your list.

scorekeeper.6524:

It’s funny because you’re the only one here claiming we are “chasing a meta”.

I was the one who brought up the meta. I said that engineer isn’t a meta profession in PvP or WvW because we hard-counter no one and bring pretty much nothing essential to the team.

Obtena believes that this is the “wrong” way to look at profession balance and health, instead opting to think:

Obtena.7952:

I would start to worry about Engi profession health if some other profession started encroaching on the things that make them unique as a class.

What Obtena failed to realize then and continues to is that while the playstyle of an engineer is different from every other profession, what we actually bring to the table is completely replaceable.

Other classes deal more damage than us.
Other classes dish out more healing than us.
Other classes are better duelists than us.

All a scrapper realistically brings to a PvP team is CC through Thunderclap and Blast Gyro (which a DH, while doing more damage, also provides substantially more unblockable and unevadeable crowd control with the longbow and their F1), some condi cleanse with Fumigate and Purge Gyro (which an elementalist, while doing less cleanse, offers substantially more overall team sustain), and the function gyro to res people (which a druid, through Search and Rescue, actually does much faster).

Phineas Poe.3018:

scorekeeper.6524:

It’s funny because you’re the only one here claiming we are “chasing a meta”.

I was the one who brought up the meta. I said that engineer isn’t a meta profession in PvP or WvW because we hard-counter no one and bring pretty much nothing essential to the team.

Obtena believes that this is the “wrong” way to look at profession balance and health, instead opting to think:

Obtena.7952:

I would start to worry about Engi profession health if some other profession started encroaching on the things that make them unique as a class.

What Obtena failed to realize then and continues to is that while the playstyle of an engineer is different from every other profession, what we actually bring to the table is completely replaceable.

Other classes deal more damage than us.
Other classes dish out more healing than us.
Other classes are better duelists than us.

All a scrapper realistically brings to a PvP team is CC through Thunderclap and Blast Gyro (which a DH, while doing more damage, also provides substantially more unblockable and unevadeable crowd control with the longbow and their F1), some condi cleanse with Fumigate and Purge Gyro (which an elementalist, while doing less cleanse, offers substantially more overall team sustain), and the function gyro to res people (which a druid, through Search and Rescue, actually does much faster).

Tempest offer team sustain and condi – no dmg, cc, rezbot, 1v1 decap, poison for heal reduce
DH offer unblock+more defense – no team condi clean, rezbot, poison (btw: we have decent unblock)
Druid offer ress – no stomp ppl from range

Engi in spvp is at good state, we have good package of various skills. We don’t hard counter anyone, but we are not hard countered too(only necro for me). Great at 1v1,decent team support, good dmg, great unblockable (acid bomb) some aoe heal… In pvp I don’t see problem and if you look on engi describe, we should be celestial. If you want to be hard counter – roll other class.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Ryze.2891:

Engineer can hold against most classes on a node: druid, mesmer, ele, theif, guardian, warrior.

Druid, mesmer, and ele yes. Guardian is a washout based on what weapons they’re using. Staff thief when well played is also 50/50. Usually I just whittle them down and they leave. Good thieves don’t die needlessly.

But warrior? Absolutely not. You can 1v1 them, sure, but not “on point,” especially if they’re power.

I think rev is a substantially easier match-up than warrior, and they’re surprisingly left off your list.

If the guardian is running the skirmish build, which i rarely see in my games then yes he eventually kick me out of the node, which i happily do after getting 20-30 points and then go mid and help my team. however the guardian is going to be at a huge disadatvange going that build.

Good thieves aka D/P would never even bother fighting an engineer its a waste of time and they will never kill them. Staff theives is all about knowing the timing of their vulnerability during their vault animations.

Warrior might be difficult for you, but not for me. The only time i get decap from a warrior is when i screw up my dodge, blocks, stunbreak etc. Their abilities are telegrahped and only a few skills should be used to dodge or block.

I left out revenants because i know that power revenants counters power scrapper, and i mean real good revenants.

Some of this is anecdotel experience and some of it is just pure fact

David.5974:

Engi in spvp is at good state, we have good package of various skills. We don’t hard counter anyone, but we are not hard countered too(only necro for me). Great at 1v1, decent team support, good dmg, great unblockable (acid bomb) some aoe heal… In pvp I don’t see problem and if you look on engi describe, we should be celestial. If you want to be hard counter – roll other class.

This is all well and good, but the fact that we hard-counter nobody is a genuine problem and a serious oversight in our class design. Everyone counters someone. Rangers counter guardians. Warriors counter necromancers. And necromancers counter rangers.

We used to hard-counter thieves and guardians. We also used to hard-counter longbow ranger before Signet of the Wild became popularly ran.

This rock-paper-scissors design is the bedrock of Guild Wars 2 PvP, and is conceptually what the meta-game is all about. The only reason boonstrip necro ever became a thing is solely because the popularity of rifle engi and d/d elementalist demanded it; the meta-game isn’t something you “chase.” It’s something you learn through game knowledge and experience.

It’s counter-classing and structuring your build around what you tend to expect. There are always “non-meta” builds in the mix and these choices are completely viable. You can play a Marauder Elixir X Scrapper or a P/P Condi build on your engineer and be successful with it, as I certainly have at points—but the truth is that the Paladin Final Salvo build with Sneak Gyro was heavily favored at the start of the season because condi necro and dragonhunter were popularly faced early on, and neither the condi or Elixir X variants properly handle them as effectively as a triple gyro scrapper does through condi cleanse, reflects, and stealth.

So sure—we handle most professions and builds just fine 1v1. But the simple fact is you can list any class you’re versus and I can give you another profession that’s far better suited for it than we are. And in a solo/duo queue season scheme, counter-comping has never been more important.

It makes engineer the non-ideal choice in most circumstances, where another class can provide more to the team. And at higher tiers, having things like two engineers on your team literally loses games. No matter how decent our team support or damage is, we don’t replace a warrior’s damage or a druid’s healing output. What results often is the situation in which your team lacks stopping power or sustain to win heavy team fights versus warrior+necro+ele comps that more effectively counter the other members of your team.

I’m happy there are people like Ryze that are far better skilled than I am and are finding success with the profession and reaching legendary with it in spite of these difficulties. I don’t even honestly think I’m that great at PvP these days, and I’ve accepted I’ll probably finish the season around Platinum 1.

But I’ve spoken with a number of engineer mains I’ve befriended over the years and the unanimity is startling; across PvE, PvP, and WvW, we’re just not valued in our guilds. It’s the same unenviable situation that revenant is in. A good revenant still gets the job done in PvP, but they’re just not a favored profession at the moment in any aspect of the game. It’s a problem and it needs resolving—not rerolling.

There are a lot of unfamiliar faces in threads these days, and I understand that I haven’t been around much these days, but I find it kind of offensive that people would even suggest that I should play something else just because the engineer isn’t in a state I agree with. It’s just absurd.

We used to hard-counter thieves and guardians. We also used to hard-counter longbow ranger before Signet of the Wild became popularly ran.

This rock-paper-scissors design is the bedrock of Guild Wars 2 PvP, and is conceptually what the meta-game is all about. The only reason boonstrip necro ever became a thing is solely because the popularity of rifle engi and d/d elementalist demanded it; the meta-game isn’t something you “chase.” It’s something you learn through game knowledge and experience.

Why is this a bad thing?

It’s counter-classing and structuring your build around what you tend to expect. There are always “non-meta” builds in the mix and these choices are completely viable. You can play a Marauder Elixir X Scrapper or a P/P Condi build on your engineer and be successful with it, as I certainly have at points—but the truth is that the Paladin Final Salvo build with Sneak Gyro was heavily favored at the start of the season because condi necro and dragonhunter were popularly faced early on, and neither the condi or Elixir X variants properly handle them as effectively as a triple gyro scrapper does through condi cleanse, reflects, and stealth.

Things change with time, learn to accept it.

So sure—we handle most professions and builds just fine 1v1. But the simple fact is you can list any class you’re versus and I can give you another profession that’s far better suited for it than we are. And in a solo/duo queue season scheme, counter-comping has never been more important.

That doesn’t necessarily mean you win the game.

It makes engineer the non-ideal choice in most circumstances, where another class can provide more to the team. And at higher tiers, having things like two engineers on your team literally loses games. No matter how decent our team support or damage is, we don’t replace a warrior’s damage or a druid’s healing output. What results often is the situation in which your team lacks stopping power or sustain to win heavy team fights versus warrior+necro+ele comps that more effectively counter the other members of your team.

I’m happy there are people like Ryze that are far better skilled than I am and are finding success with the profession and reaching legendary with it in spite of these difficulties. I don’t even honestly think I’m that great at PvP these days, and I’ve accepted I’ll probably finish the season around Platinum 1.

But I’ve spoken with a number of engineer mains I’ve befriended over the years and the unanimity is startling; across PvE, PvP, and WvW, we’re just not valued in our guilds. It’s the same unenviable situation that revenant is in. A good revenant still gets the job done in PvP, but they’re just not a favored profession at the moment in any aspect of the game. It’s a problem and it needs resolving—not rerolling.

There are a lot of unfamiliar faces in threads these days, and I understand that I haven’t been around much these days, but I find it kind of offensive that people would even suggest that I should play something else just because the engineer isn’t in a state I agree with. [/quote]

You could team up with one of your friends and duel against the builds you suffer most. I did that when GS/mace became a thing and with skirmish guard build. It really makes a difference practicing it.

Your quote phrasing is kind of strange, so forgive me if I don’t hit everything you asked/said.

Ryze.2891:

Why is this a bad thing?

It’s not a bad thing. I actually happen to like the rock-paper-scissors balancing act of GW2 (and GW1) PvP because it’s far more cerebral; certainly rotations and mechanics play a huge part in your success, but game knowledge is the number one determining factor of your success. Knowing what traits, skills, and weapons to run versus certain team compositions is part of the challenge of being successful at GW2 PvP, and it’s why I’ve stuck with the engineer profession specifically since the game launched. We’re a bag of tricks and we’ve always had something up our sleeve to provide an edge no matter who we’re facing—but it feels like that is no longer the case, or at the very least is less the case.

Ryze.2891:

Things change with time, learn to accept it.

This is kind of an empty, non-particular statement and not really representative of a direct response to anything I’ve said. I am aware that things change with time; I am literally advocating change here.

I’d appreciate it if you could be a bit more specific with regard to what you’re referring to here.

Ryze.2891:

That doesn’t necessarily mean you win the game.

No, but it gives you the greatest odds of victory. In a solo/duo season, you can’t rely on having better comms to win games, and unless you’re playing with people you know (which happens a lot in platinum, granted) you just don’t know what the weak points of your team are. As such, you pretty much have to tell yourself that you have to be the difference; you have to switch your build/class around to best prepare for your opposition and give your team the edge.

Sometimes that means I am forced to swap to druid or warrior versus guardian or necromancer heavy teams.

I don’t mind doing this, and I don’t mind that engineer isn’t always the ideal choice; I mind that my engineer is never the ideal choice.

Ryze.2891:

You could team up with one of your friends and duel against the builds you suffer most. I did that when GS/mace became a thing and with skirmish guard build. It really makes a difference practicing it.

I have been, and this has been immensely helpful. I do feel like I’ve gotten a lot better fighting against warriors and guardians in this way, specifically. But it still doesn’t change the fact that it’s an uphill battle for us, and that engineer isn’t currently in a state one would say is thriving.

Phineas Poe.3018:

What Obtena failed to realize then and continues to is that while the playstyle of an engineer is different from every other profession, what we actually bring to the table is completely replaceable.

Other classes deal more damage than us.
Other classes dish out more healing than us.
Other classes are better duelists than us.

There is no failure here because ‘replaceable elements’ are actually intended in this game. It’s quite irrelevant if any or all those cherry-picked elements are done better by a different class because theoretically, it’s possible that the scenario where all those elements are done better by different classes still results in this class being OPed. Furthermore, how strong or weak other classes are in any particular element has no bearing on the overall performance of another class, ever. Those arguments you present make are illogical.

Non-thriving state isn’t going to be a reason to fix anything. In fact, any self-assessed level of performance is pretty meaningless/insignificant to justify fixes for two reasons; it’s biased and performance isn’t the only thing that is measured by those that are responsible for managing the development.

Anyone that comes into a game that doesn’t understand that different classes will perform at different levels relative to each other and what that means in terms of balance and rank isn’t being realistic when they are talking about fixing class balance. This is no exception.

One thing I must agreed with you… this topic is about if engi will survive 2017. In my eyes, engi/scrappy start dying at 2016. First they reduce sustain of adaptive armor and rapid regen which I totally agreed! Then they touch on core engi traits, and meaby you not accept it, but remove regen from bunker down med pack was a solid nerf.

Nerfing shock sheild was Ok, thunderclap too, but(seriously?) rocket charge which have 3 leaps and 2 finishers is a kind of stupidity. I rather see 2 leaps, but in current state this skill makes me always wtf?

And recently “purity of purpouse” remove daze from gyro detonate. This change, is not only in pvp, but in wvw/pve too!!! So, I reroll to chrono after that, I was run fractals with scrappy for chill runs – without some CC why now?

Buffs like increase power dmg of fire bomb is only cover for nerfs to not make ppl too much angry. They should finally look at:
-rifle rework to keep effectivness with hammer
-med kit overhaul
-turrets that share player stats
-fun gyro should have more options
-alchemy/inventions should have more options to custom. Your build (I will never take backpack regen, turret enchant trait or for now medkit heal effect)

Engi is hard proffesion to balance, because our versatility. I just remember why I was pick engi – my expection was rifle with rocket turret (my artilery cover) granades (condi control-freeze and blind) and potion (escape). So, I wish that anet have plans how to make this class great again in game mods….

Obtena.7952:

Furthermore, how strong or weak other classes are in any particular element has no bearing on the overall performance of another class, ever.

No, but it does have bearing on a team’s overall performance.

What you’re saying would be convincing if PvP was a 1v1 game mode, but it’s not. Having a bunch of classes that are A- or S-tier in their specific roles is far better than having a bunch of classes that are B-tier in everything. Smart players rotate around their deficiencies and play to their strengths—and don’t throw themselves into situations where they’d be at a disadvantage.

Yup it does, but that in itself is even less of a reason for Anet to do anything to adjust Engi because in a team, any specific skill or buffs are dispersed over many people and success is dependent on the whole team, not just one individual. Therefore, it’s even less reasonable for any particular class to be proclaimed in need just because it can’t do any particular thing exceptionally well in a team. I would in fact argue that classes that bring lots of many things are way more important in a team than including a class for any singular thing. There is more than one way to complete team content so solutions that involve the “exceptional at one thing” classes are not particularly compelling agents for change.

Obtena.7952:

Yup it does, but that in itself is even less of a reason for Anet to do anything to adjust Engi because in a team, any specific skill or buffs are dispersed over many people and success is dependent on the whole team, not just one individual. Therefore, it’s even less reasonable for any particular class to be proclaimed in need just because it can’t do any particular thing exceptionally well in a team. I would in fact argue that classes that bring lots of many things are way more important in a team than including a class for any singular thing. There is more than one way to complete team content so solutions that involve the “exceptional at one thing” classes are not particularly compelling agents for change.

That would be a valid argument if Engineer was capable of doing even a couple of it’s several good things at one time. It isn’t (at least not since the heyday of the Celestial/Marauder Rifle). …And it’s not like you can adjust on the fly during ranked matches as build changes are forbidden once the match starts.

In PvE where there are no limits to how much you can alter your build between fights this concept makes somewhat more sense (and why I still do the majority of my open world PvE as an Engineer) but once you hit high end content like T4 fractals and Raids or enter the terrifying world of WvW roaming and start to run into the issue of the cost for gear, you find that to be truly good at something you’re going to have to be pick stats, sigils and runesets that are typically not good at other things, and given that limitation (keeping in mind most players, even at this level of play, are unable or unwilling to grind out the mats and Gs to make several sets of ascended gear (at least at first)) wouldn’t it make more sense to invest that time and effort into a class that will preform outstandingly in that role, rather than one that will simply be “good” (or in the case of Condis, marginally better than the preferred with noticeably more effort) at it?

I don’t think that’s an honest opinion about what Eng can do. That’s just a matter of opinion, not a objective measure. But I guess that’s the easy thing to do isn’kitten

It my opinion that Eng does many of it’s goods things at one time. In, fact, I’ve made a very robust and fun build taking advantage of this fact. It’s not exceptional at any one particular thing but I’m never stuck not having the tools I need for many situations.

If it makes sense to you to invest time into a class that will perform exceptionally in a specific role, you can do that choosing the right class with the specific role you want to excel at. Therefore, I don’t see how that relates to the issue at hand. Not everyone chooses a class because it performs exceptionally at any specific role and I don’t see why that is a necessary requirement for a class to begin with. It’s not needed to have a well balanced class.

is that so

please post your robust and fun build

i would like a reason to come back to engi and play it almost exclusively again and actually be wanted in all of the content areas of the game without being shrugged at at best and asked to change classes at worst.

i admit, while learning to play every other class i may have missed the robust and fun build you speak of.

Obtena.7952:

Yup it does, but that in itself is even less of a reason for Anet to do anything to adjust Engi because in a team, any specific skill or buffs are dispersed over many people and success is dependent on the whole team, not just one individual.

Therefore, it’s even less reasonable for any particular class to be proclaimed in need just because it can’t do any particular thing exceptionally well in a team. I would in fact argue that classes that bring lots of many things are way more important in a team than including a class for any singular thing. There is more than one way to complete team content so solutions that involve the “exceptional at one thing” classes are not particularly compelling agents for change.

A team’s success is measured by the sum of its parts. Not to so heavily switch gears from PvP, but I think this is best represented in higher-end PvE content.

If one class, say necromancer, does less damage than a staff elementalist, you are directly hindering your group’s performance playing the former over the latter. Skills and buffs may be dispersed over multiple members of the party, but professions are favored over who disperses these best and elevates the party’s DPS the most.

Even though support builds like a PS warrior, a chronomancer, or a druid don’t top damage meters, they’re still very much sought-after in any half-decent group composition for this reason. Individually a druid doesn’t do much DPS, but between Grace of the Land, spirits, and fury they greatly elevate group DPS while providing substantial healing support. The same goes for warriors with their banners and might, and chronomancers with their alacrity. As such these builds present themselves as being invaluable to any raid group, elevating the team to be greater than the sum of their parts, rendering them essentially irreplaceable. You just won’t get the same group performance without them.

You could complete all three wings without having a chronomancer, druid, or PS warrior on your team, but it wouldn’t be smooth, and it absolutely wouldn’t be worth the struggle and headache. Their absence would be … noticeable.

But just to reiterate something, though: an engineer historically was brought to dungeon and fractal groups pre-Heart of Thorns because of its ability to stack might, vulnerability, and stealth. Conceptually speaking we didn’t provide as much stealth as a thief did and we didn’t provide as much might as a warrior did, but we brought enough to cover the bases and the grenade kit’s absolutely ludicrous vulnerability stacking potential made us incredibly valuable in fractal 50 runs (and to a lesser extent level 100 runs today).

Our vulnerability stacking has since become entirely replaceable thanks to Heart of Thorns power creep and the fact that vulnerability is capped at 25; it’s not hard at all for a raid group to almost instantly hit and keep 25 stacks of vulnerability on a raid boss. Additionally, while we still stack might as well as we did before, we do so running a build that presents substantially less DPS than a PS warrior brings to the table. Stealth, on the other hand, has lost a lot of its appeal due to fractal island redesigns and raid instance layouts lessening the need for it and dungeons now being absolutely faceroll.

When Heart of Thorns came out we still retained some degree of utility through Slick Shoes to break defiance bars, but when the utility was nerfed we were almost immediately brought to heel by revenants and their staff/Shiro elite.

What this has resulted in is exactly as I stated before: we’re a profession that’s B-average in a lot of areas in an environment littered with builds and professions that are S-tier in specific roles. And like I said before: if you disagree with me about the state of the engineer that’s one thing, but your implication that the engineer doesn’t have to have any perceptive value in PvE doesn’t sit well with me; unlike druid, warrior, or chronomancer, our absence is not only completely ignorable—our attendance is in many respects an affront to more ideal group compositions.

My post was getting a bit long so I split it up. I also just wanted to return to something you said before:

Obtena.7952:

Non-thriving state isn’t going to be a reason to fix anything.

I think it’s really important that you disregard the belief that just because you don’t find value in being a part of the meta, that doesn’t mean the meta itself actually lacks value. Just because you approach this game more casually and without much concern for our status in the meta-game, that doesn’t inherently mean my emphasis or desire to see engineer more so a part of it is “wrong” or misguided.

I have guys and gals in my guild who do nothing but farm Auric Basin, Silverwastes, and Molten Duo for hours on end; that is the entire game to them. And while that content absolutely bores me to tears, I admire their tenacity and it would be completely out of place for me to drag them into PvP and tell them the content I enjoy is more important than theirs. Additionally, I certainly would never jump into a Teamspeak channel of one of our raid groups and tell them that what they’re doing or what they care about is less important than what it is that I do in PvP and WvW these days. My guild is a very large and diverse group of people of varying skill level and interest. If you asked them what was the most important feature of Guild Wars 2 and what would be done to improve it, you’d get dozens of different answers.

It’s why I’ve been both a member and officer of it for the greater part of four years, and it’s why what you said absolutely drives me up a wall.

How you play the game isn’t the way how everyone else should play it, and how I play the game isn’t necessarily how or why you play it. I don’t care if you don’t think engineer being “non-thriving” is a good enough reason to fix anything. As I said previously, it seriously doesn’t matter to me if you think engineer in a good state or not; it only matters to me that you seem to think it’s beyond ArenaNet’s interest to address profession imbalances and popularity perceptions in practice.

I am a min-maxer and theorycrafter in every game I play. Games like Path of Exile and Diablo are literally crack to me, giving me the opportunity to come up with unique build concepts and ideas and push them as far as I can. When a build doesn’t work, or when I eventually hit the highest I can with it, I shrug my shoulders and try something else. I’m the guy that toggles on ironman mode on any game that offers it, and I almost always play games at their highest difficulty to start.

That mixture of challenge and experimentation is entirely what drives me to play video games, and that pursuit of betterment is what encourages me to log into these forums when I actively play this game to make suggestions and provide feedback to struggling players trying to grapple with this profession and how it all works.

Maybe it’s not important to you that engineer is among the least represented professions in the top 250, with almost zero of them solo-queuers. Heck, maybe hitting platinum isn’t even an aspiration for you. Maybe being just “fine” in fractals and raids is good enough for you. And you know, maybe you’re the type of person who’s OK with playing games on their normal difficulty.

But not me. And before you hit that reply button again, consider that what we’re asking for doesn’t at all threaten your more casual interests; there is no downside to making the engineer a stronger profession with a more apparent role and/or class identity. And it’s not too much to ask for that we actually bring something valuable to a raid group that doesn’t require playing the piano on near-stationary targets.

insanemaniac.2456:

is that so

please post your robust and fun build

That is so:

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlcThqrY5VwWLw6FL3FV4EGQZmYB9DhI4CGhBAA-TBSFQBE4CC0OdAiUJYvOQgGi6p+zSU+Ri9HAwDAIAACA/23+2n/MpA+aNA-e

Phineas Poe.3018:

And it’s not too much to ask for that we actually bring something valuable to a raid group that doesn’t require playing the piano on near-stationary targets.

Here is what I honestly believe … that busy playstyle that you dislike … is completely intended by Anet. You are literally asking Anet to completely rethink what the Eng delivers to players as a unique class. That is really unlikely to happen. You chose the wrong class.

What you are asking for needs to be better thought out is what my issue is with this thread. Complaining that Eng isn’t meta … to group of devs that doesn’t really acknowledge meta is a measure of class success is going to get you ‘fixes’ for things that aren’t aligned to what you think is a problem. It happens.

And I honestly believe that you argue and “oppose” buff threads and threads like this just for the sake of arguing (aka you don’t see an issue with <insert skill/weapon/profession>, so you think that Anet won’t also see it thus it’s perfectly fine), seeing as you sound like a broken record and everything you say boils down to “everything’s fine. I disagree because I think that anet think” Be it here or in every profession forum you decide to post. You don’t care about how it was argued, but just don’t like the general idea.

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

is that so

please post your robust and fun build

That is so:

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlcThqrY5VwWLw6FL3FV4EGQZmYB9DhI4CGhBAA-TBSFQBE4CC0OdAiUJYvOQgGi6p+zSU+Ri9HAwDAIAACA/23+2n/MpA+aNA-e

i didnt think i was missing something. ive used a similar scrapper variant of it for a year.

have you tried soloing HoT hp champs?

No, I don’t solo HP champs with this one.

Mahou.3924:

And I honestly believe that you argue and “oppose” buff threads and threads like this just for the sake of arguing (aka you don’t see an issue with <insert skill/weapon/profession>, so you think that Anet won’t also see it thus it’s perfectly fine), seeing as you sound like a broken record and everything you say boils down to “everything’s fine. I disagree because I think that anet think” Be it here or in every profession forum you decide to post. You don’t care about how it was argued, but just don’t like the general idea.

If that’s what you read from my posts, I’m just going to urge you to look closer. I mean, you can pretend that what Anet wants to do is irrelevant … I’m not that naive. I doubt Anet made Engi a ‘piano’ class … by accident, but if people want to convince themselves that it’s a mistakey so they can feel like there is hope Anet scraps the concept and reworks it completely, I guess that’s what they will do. If you want improvements to the class, screaming ‘not-meta’ and sitting back is not going to garner the correct attention.

No, I don’t think that idea going anywhere; if anything, it’s just reinforced by the gyro concept on scrapper. You need to be that kind of push-button gamer to get the most from engi and if you are, you will find that the class is not as deficient as this thread would make us believe.

Obtena.7952:

You chose the wrong class.

Okay I think I’m done here.

Take care.

No problem … I mean, it’s ridiculous to complain the class doesn’t play how you want it to. It’s the reason multiple classes exists; to be able to choose the style of play you want. If you choose poorly, that’s logically the solution to your problem. If you don’t like such a busy style of play, Anet provides classes that are less busy. That’s always going to be a challenge for game devs to provide enough variety in style and concept to satisfy most players. Even when they do that, they have a balancing nightmare. I’ve yet to see a game that has dozens of classes that are unique, but have a well-balanced performance over all of them. It gets exponentially harder to balance as more classes are added.

Frankly, I think you are being unreasonable. You want a specific style, with an exceptional ‘role’ that is relevant to the meta always. GL with that.

Obtena.7952:

No, I don’t solo HP champs with this one.

I suppose I have a different definition of robust and fun then. because I’ve done that on at least 3 other classes while at least partially emulating the meta builds (on a budget, typically) and being entirely bad at the classes at the time. and people say you have to be bad at a couple of other classes that I don’t play and am worse than bad at to not be able to do such a thing on those meta builds too, like (power) warrior.

that doesn’t particularly inspire faith in engi from me.

I think the inability to solo champs really doesn’t indicate that a class is incapable and a poorly performing class; that’s as much a function of the build as it is the player. I can say that I have only done that with a MM Necro build which I think only shows that Minion builds are broken IMO. I can’t say if there is an Engi build that doesn’t also solo champs; I’ve never explored that space.

What I am certain of is that the whole question of class balance and performance is way more complex than “it’s not meta”. As Phineas has already pointed out, in his experience, he was bored because he was so successful with the class. So … is that really a not-meta problem … or is Eng just one of those classes that really rewards highly capable players and leaves scrubs behind?

Obtena.7952:

As Phineas has already pointed out, in his experience, he was bored because he was so successful with the class. So … is that really a not-meta problem … or is Eng just one of those classes that really rewards highly capable players and leaves scrubs behind?

I’d really like you to elaborate on what exactly you’re suggesting here. I’d hate to put words in your mouth.

I will quote the paragraph I’m referring to.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Engineer exacerbates my carpal tunnel in PvE and puts me to sleep in PvP/WvW. I legitimately zone out while playing scrapper in PvP. It wasn’t until I forced myself to run Marauder and Elixir S+X that I realized just how lazy a player I became in PvP because of how faceroll scrapper was before I quit.

So you can correct me but basically … too much buttons to press in PVE and is too easy to play in PVP/WvW … have I got the basic jist? Those aren’t the hallmarks of a class that has poor performance.

Obtena.7952:

Have I got the basic jist?

Not even close.

But it doesn’t matter. I know you tried your best.

Obtena.7952:

I think the inability to solo champs really doesn’t indicate that a class is incapable and a poorly performing class; that’s as much a function of the build as it is the player. I can say that I have only done that with a MM Necro build which I think only shows that Minion builds are broken IMO. I can’t say if there is an Engi build that doesn’t also solo champs; I’ve never explored that space.

What I am certain of is that the whole question of class balance and performance is way more complex than “it’s not meta”. As Phineas has already pointed out, in his experience, he was bored because he was so successful with the class. So … is that really a not-meta problem … or is Eng just one of those classes that really rewards highly capable players and leaves scrubs behind?

what would you suggest as a class health benchmark for an open world build then? “havent tried it” isnt really constructive here. zergy content gets washed out by having 100 other people healing, buffing, rezzing, and outdpsing you. other harder, more structured content requires a build that isnt so harshly outdpsed for you to complete it in reasonable times and not get kicked by kittenty elitists looking for a reason to kick all noobs.

It’s a hard question to be honest; one that I don’t have an answer for. I can’t see how one would use open world content to kitten a class for health to begin with because of two things:

1. I’m not sure there is any criteria that you could establish for that to find an appropriate open world measure. Simple criteria like “DPS” ignore other significant factors, so they don’t work (which explains why meta, to me, is a poor indicator of class health).

2. Even if there is a list of criteria and content that exists that we would agree to as appropriate, it still wouldn’t be sufficient to judge class health because performance is affected by the person playing the class as well.

So you can’t just ask what criteria and content establishes the baseline, you also have to consider the level of player competence to do that. I just can’t see how any objective assessment can do that.

I think that because of the complexity of doing such a thing, we (and Anet) have to fall back on more primitive evaluations like … perhaps having a range of acceptable damage output for given fixed parameters. Or more empirical things, which we do see like when they tweak skills after PVP seasons and such. Anet even tells us as much, like SoI for Mesmers and recent Rev changes. Finally .. if the class skills are maintaining the flavour of the class; for example, Guardian Sword and Scepter getting symbols recently.

I honestly don’t get the mentality that there is something wrong with the class if people don’t want it in teams. Why would anyone conclude it’s a problem with the class? At one point we had an all-Ele meta for dungeons … does that mean all other 7 classes were no good? That was certainly not the case. So why is it the case here that Eng is not a good class because it’s not meta either? That’s just nonsense. IF this is even a problem, it’s not a class issue, it’s a game design issue, and not one that is easily addressed through throwing about class buffs/nerfs either.

Obtena.7952:

It’s a hard question to be honest; one that I don’t have an answer for. I can’t see how one would use open world content to kitten a class for health to begin with because of two things:

1. I’m not sure there is any criteria that you could establish for that to find an appropriate open world measure. Simple criteria like “DPS” ignore other significant factors, so they don’t work (which explains why meta, to me, is a poor indicator of class health).

2. Even if there is a list of criteria and content that exists that we would agree to as appropriate, it still wouldn’t be sufficient to judge class health because performance is affected by the person playing the class as well.

So you can’t just ask what criteria and content establishes the baseline, you also have to consider the level of player competence to do that. I just can’t see how any objective assessment can do that.

I think that because of the complexity of doing such a thing, we (and Anet) have to fall back on more primitive evaluations like … perhaps having a range of acceptable damage output for given fixed parameters. Or more empirical things, which we do see like when they tweak skills after PVP seasons and such. Anet even tells us as much, like SoI for Mesmers and recent Rev changes. Finally .. if the class skills are maintaining the flavour of the class; for example, Guardian Sword and Scepter getting symbols recently.

I honestly don’t get the mentality that there is something wrong with the class if people don’t want it in teams. Why would anyone conclude it’s a problem with the class? At one point we had an all-Ele meta for dungeons … does that mean all other 7 classes were no good? That was certainly not the case. So why is it the case here that Eng is not a good class because it’s not meta either? That’s just nonsense. IF this is even a problem, it’s not a class issue, it’s a game design issue, and not one that is easily addressed through throwing about class buffs/nerfs either.

first, i recommend taking a look at league of legends patch notes. theyve come a long way since their launch in communicating to players how they analyze problems with champions. now, they put anets patch notes with respect to class balance to shame. glimpses like that into balance and design offer us a starting point for sounding out a foundation upon which to build our own opinions of how balance can be constructed.

second, thats just it. none of this is objective. its very nature is subjective. anet currently does a poor job of reacting to and creating new balance points. their iteration is too slow and paralyzed by the fear of drastic changes in addition to the really really bad rule of never ever reverting changes. always moving forward is one thing, but moving backward by moving forward and then refusing to turn around is just plain dumb. idk if its mismanagement, a lack of skill, disinterest, being understaffed, or something else, but they do not have enough resources allocated to balance to produce something respectable for a competitive, professional community at this time. so we have to work with what we have.

finally, yes i certainly can ask about those criteria. im doing just that. im coming at it from a perspective of doing the same things on many different classes, playing many builds, having some level of mastery over all of them, and deciding for myself which ones are in an acceptable state for those things.

and from my perspective, right now engi is easy and fun in open world.. but not good. engi is tiring but fun in harder pve content… but other classes arent tiring and have unique niches and arent just filler. in wvw, engi doesnt quite have what i want in a roamer and is too selfish for zerging. and in pvp, build diversity is extremely lacking compared to pre-hot, and engi isnt bad and has a high skill floor… but has a fairly low skill ceiling and is hard pressed to actually win any 1v1s.

all of that adds up to “meh” @ engi. and thats unhealthy.

What I read here (and is completely fair mind you) is that those things make Eng meh to you. Probably others as well. No debate. It’s what you feel, it’s what other feel but it’s not what everyone feels.

So basically, how is it fair to ask Anet to look into a ‘problem’ based on what a fraction of players feel? It’s a wash if you ask me. It’s such a wide variation that you can throw that dart anywhere one the board and basically accomplish nothing; you’re just at a different spot. That’s why I think that the only valid evaluation of class health has almost nothing to do with it’s performance.

Let me put some perspective here. Let’s say for argument sake there was one class that unanimously, players thought was awesome for everything. Is that a healthy for the class? Is that healthy for other classes? I don’t think you can simply attribute health to what people think is or isn’t, or even look at what that means for an individual class.

My suggestion to play other classes was dismissed pretty hard … but be honest and tell me that’s not why those other classes exist with the variations in playstyles they have … it’s absolutely the answer to this problem. Just look at how easy Anet enables leveling and allows people to swap endgame gear and even changes stats on that gear. That’s screaming to me as THE solution to not being happy with a class. It’s not chasing the meta or doing some complicated class balance analysis every time meta changes. This isn’t MMO University; academics are not the answer here. Anet needs to turn profit and I’m certain this solution is inline with recognizing that GW2 is first and foremost, a business with shareholders.

some of us actually do call for nerfs when something is unanimously/nearly considered op. I’d tell you to sift through my post history and check out where I called for nerfs to engi and guard cc, but it’s a long post history.

I actually agree that trying other classes is a solution. the major roadblock to that solution is having played long enough and uncasually enough to have assets to buy new toon slots and instantly create viable, complete armor sets. I’ve done so cuz I haven’t sat on my kitten in game continually being poor, and I’ve also played for over 4 years and done so many fractals that I’ve built about 10 sets of ascended armor while only crafting my first. so when you say to me “just make another toon” I say “yeah good point”. but it’s taken me a mountain of effort to get to where I can answer in that manner, and im sure that to at least some of these engis in here who are glossing over that solution…. it’s not something they’re prepared to do. they don’t have the resources or will to split their investment. and that’s where calling for dev action comes into the picture.

That I will give you, there is a roadblock to simply making a new class and it boils down to time and/or money … but isn’t that part of a game in the first place … doing different things to play it?

I get people aren’t prepared to simply try a different class, but it’s going to be a really hard sell to get a dev team limited in resources to make class changes because it’s unliked when the ‘other class’ solution is already provided. I am certain of one thing … even Anet isn’t going to change the concept of the class. That’s here to stay. If someone thinks it’s too busy or boring or whatever … that’s due to a fixed class concept, not a balance issue. That’s where elite specs come in …

Obtena.7952:

That I will give you, there is a roadblock to simply making a new class and it boils down to time and/or money … but isn’t that part of a game in the first place … doing different things to play it?

I get people aren’t prepared to simply try a different class, but it’s going to be a really hard sell to get a dev team limited in resources to make class changes because it’s unliked when the ‘other class’ solution is already provided. I am certain of one thing … even Anet isn’t going to change the concept of the class. That’s here to stay. If someone thinks it’s too busy or boring or whatever … that’s due to a fixed class concept, not a balance issue. That’s where elite specs come in …

the problem is Anet nerfed Everything that was Engineer’s concept
so now we have a roleless boring underwhelming profession

and every “Purity of purpose” changes we have gotten for the past 3 years have been ninja nerfs

the problem isnt that we cant play other professions its that this profession was the one that we identified with

i personally have had about 80% win rate on my necromancer mesmer thief and DH in a mere 47 hours of gameplay vs my 40% winrate as engi with over 8000 hours of experience that speaks leagues

I’ve completely lost interest ever since that “purity of purpose” slap in the face.

I still can’t believe it happened. 1200 hours and almost 3 years (my 2nd most played class) with my engineer, and it’s feeling like rock bottom.

Obtena.7952:

My suggestion to play other classes was dismissed pretty hard … but be honest and tell me that’s not why those other classes exist with the variations in playstyles they have … it’s absolutely the answer to this problem.

Your suggestion was dismissed because it’s frankly a stupid suggestion. Many of us here have been playing this game for four years and have hundreds of hours on every profession. We’ve already tried every profession and the simple fact of the matter the engineer was chosen to be our main for various reasons. So please don’t come in here and act like you have something new to teach us or hold some unearthed insight on ArenaNet’s design philosophy on the engineer when we’ve written more words on this class between here and GW2Guru than you’ve probably written to get your college degree.

You just seriously doing have an effing clue of what you’re talking about when you suggest that “Anet isn’t going to change the concept of the class” when that’s exactly what they did and that’s why we’re irritated with the status quo. I went over in detail why engineer was historically a valued profession in both PvE and PvP and that concept has since been utterly destroyed. The reason why so many people felt so defeated by the “purity of purpose” nerf is because they literally forced us into running gyro builds in the first place.

You don’t read what anyone else is saying and you simply bunker down on the same talking points as one person after another only repeats the same issues I brought up. Maybe it’ll eventually sink in that there’s a problem here for you, but probably not.

I’m just going to cut to something a little harder and faster by asking a few questions that I think will reveal to us the difference in perspective: have you actually done raids? Do you do them regularly? Do you PvP or WvW? Do you do fractals daily? What exactly is it that you do in this game with your engineer that leads you to think the engineer is not just in an acceptable state but a defendable one?

I don’t have any trouble going against scrappers of equal skill with this build…. we are not forced into gyro. I am more effective with this….

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASlUUh2tY1VwWLQ7FLTGVY/0dhF9fn37t4zcABAA-TJBFAB/XG4+9HA4BAQwFAAA

Have even had some of my opponent engineers ask me for the build after the match and give it a shot. Somewhat unfortunate because I’m use to assuming other engis are meta or pistol….

He doesn’t get it Phineas. I play Ranger when I want to farm SW. I use SB and Staff and have a condition build with a little bit of mobility. It’s not meta but it works for me. Now is it logical that I pop my head over to the Ranger forums and tell those who are discussing the state of Ranger that “Hey guys, Ranger works for me, here’s my build, the class doesn’t need any changes. If you’re unhappy go play another class.” ?

You’re absolutely right in your analysis. Engie used to be a well used class, but then has been nerfed continually so that other classes achieve better results in less time. We’re asking “Why?” and “Can we please have our original class utility back?” But no, we’re told by Mr. White Knight “Go play another class.” We here are not Johnny-Come-Latelys, we’ve played this class enough to know when we are getting the short end of the stick in nearly all content.

@shion- What rank are you? Just curious, since I’d be surprised to see that in the Legendary tier. If you are Legendary or Plat with that build, you have my congratulations.

I believe Phineas meant that since the Scrapper line was very powerful when released, to stay effective with the powerspikes given to other classes we Engis had to take that line. No one is forcing you to choose anything in any content if you are playing for yourself. However, if you raid, do fractals, dungeons, or PvP you are expected to pick not just a viable build (which are many) but an optimal build (which are few)

scorekeeper.6524:

We’re asking “Why?” and “Can we please have our original class utility back?” But no, we’re told by Mr. White Knight “Go play another class.” We here are not Johnny-Come-Latelys, we’ve played this class enough to know when we are getting the short end of the stick in nearly all content.

This is the crux of the issue. You don’t tell someone that has been playing a class for over four thousand hours that they chose the wrong class (seriously wtf?) or that they should just up and main another profession just because we are currently undertuned in PvE and call them wrong for requesting to give us back the utility the profession used to have.

“The busyness is intentional.” What a joke. Who intentionally designs a build that does less DPS than half the classes in the game and yet is the hardest build to play conceivably in any game mode in the entire history of this game, especially when the power build literally runs in circles spamming bombs on auto for near identical damage. Condi engi was almost universally panned by the community when HoT came out but at least we had value in wing one that made up for it.

It’s a terrible build and ArenaNet knows it. That’s why there is an overhaul in the development pipeline. They can even keep us running three kits if they have to but if it doesn’t DPS to the level of a staff elementalist on all bosses the build will continue to be passed over for other classes for reasons that are obvious to anyone that has stepped into a raid.

Maybe Obtena wasn’t aware of or active at the time so I forgive him, but the PvE community almost unanimously asked for our elite spec to finally get us away from using kits. Little did we know at the time that not only would we not even use the spec in PvE but we were forced into a build that put even more kits on our bar. The truly sad thing is that ArenaNet was actually successful in getting us away from kits with the scrapper; they just failed at making scrapper worth taking in PvE instances.

The Slick Shoes nerf to this day also completely baffles me. The skill was terrible for over three years and when it finally had a use it got completely gutted.

This is why I asked if he even raids or PvPs. There’s just so much ignorance mixed with arrogance in this thread.

Make Engineer Great Again

Phineas Poe.3018:

Obtena.7952:

My suggestion to play other classes was dismissed pretty hard … but be honest and tell me that’s not why those other classes exist with the variations in playstyles they have … it’s absolutely the answer to this problem.

Your suggestion was dismissed because it’s frankly a stupid suggestion.

Right … so finding a class that works for you that you like to play is completely stupid …

but asking Anet to revisit the class concept for the class you (and they) have invested so much time into so you will like it again … that’s completely logical and intelligent.

Ok well, at least I know which one of us won’t be back here in 4 years complaining about the same issues and playing classes they don’t like. Anet isn’t going to tell you any different either. They give you choice to exercise for a reason. If you decide the most effective option for you to solve this problem is one you aren’t going to exercise, there isn’t much more to say. Stay stubborn and angry I guess.

Phineas Poe.3018 – this is like talking to the wall. I am not familiar with fact, if anet read class forums. You can exchange your feelings with us, but I’m afraid that you will do nothing with engi. But you’re right, I am also dissatisfied too.

I have a hunch that A-net never played engi and if so , then only FT champion farm build (proof from increasing FT aa dmg and mindless increasing fire bomb power dmg). I’d give my account worth seeing how A-net dev make 31k dps on golem.

Then, play mozart on matthias. Watch boss mechanics, watch your rotation, and if you are commander … heh GL.

Some players are still happy with engi. But I have 3k+ hours played on him, and I want do endgame content even inefficiently, but how I can? Fractals swarming with necros, druids…. Raids with tempests… For WvW are better classes too, and doing only pvp is not my cup of tea.

…mmm… meaby next balance patch they will increase smoke bomb dmg by 5% and remove stability from final salvo… that should be amazing!

Phineas Poe.3018:

Maybe Obtena wasn’t aware of or active at the time so I forgive him, but the PvE community almost unanimously asked for our elite spec to finally get us away from using kits. Little did we know at the time that not only would we not even use the spec in PvE but we were forced into a build that put even more kits on our bar. The truly sad thing is that ArenaNet was actually successful in getting us away from kits with the scrapper; they just failed at making scrapper worth taking in PvE instances.

the spec was advertised as being pvp oriented cuz engi was already just plain better than many other classes in pve…

this is/was a temporal failure on anets part. there was no way they had time to produce 2 elite specs, theres no way another xpac is going to be released soon, and what they put out for engi was geared heavily towards engis deficiencies without regard to the massive power creep being introduced to every other class. in the end they put a bandaid on it (applied force) and havent touched it since. personally i think it was a mistake to do so and that what they should be doing instead is prioritizing pushing out more elite specs because it was never intended for us to only have access to 1 (just 1 at a time) since they are at a different power level and the next engi elite spec should be more geared towards pve and perhaps applied force should move to that spec instead.

Obtena.7952:

If there was no reason to optimize in this game, there would be no meta but people will always end up playing the class that they like playing.

This is false. Meta arise because the human brain doesn’t allow us to accept to different things as equal. We are perpetually trying to rank and optimize things regardless of whether said thing needs to be ranked or optimized. It’s why we have a obsession with “Top 10” lists, its why we ask our peers for advice on even the most trivial and meaningless things.

There is no such thing as “if there is no reason to optimize” because the human brain will try to optimize regardless of whether there is a reason to do so.

Obtena.7952:

Right … so finding a class that works for you that you like to play is completely stupid …

No, it’s not completely stupid to find a class that works for you and to find one that you like to play. What’s completely stupid is you failing to figure out I went through that process in 2012.

What’s also completely stupid is you making such a suggestion to someone that has already told you they’ve put 7,000 hours into this game over the past 4 years, with 4,000 of that being on their engineer. By performing a little bit of deduction you can figure out I have spent a cumulative 3,000 hours playing other classes in this game.

Maybe those figures aren’t sinking in for you yet, but essentially over 40% of my play time in Guild Wars 2 is spent not playing my engineer.

Again, just for redundancy’s sake: nearly half of my play time is not playing my engineer. So yes, telling me to try other professions is, well … not a good suggestion.

I enjoy other professions; I have close to 1K hours played on my guardian alone. But that doesn’t at all change the fact that the engineer is my main, and shifting play time from my engineer to my guardian doesn’t at all address any of the problems I’ve raised in this thread.

Therefore, your assertion that I should “try other professions” or that I “chose the wrong class” is just beyond words. There’s no way I could describe my reaction to such a response without being offensive, so I won’t—but I think I speak for everyone here in saying that your reply is indefensible, and clearly no one here is going to side with you on this.

Obtena.7952:

Asking Anet to revisit the class concept for the class you (and they) have invested so much time into so you will like it again … that’s completely logical and intelligent.

Ostensibly you’re being sarcastic, but what’s the alternative? Push people to play a different profession and let the least-played profession in PvE become even less so? Why does that make good business sense?

I hope you understand that many of the decisions ArenaNet has made regarding our profession over the past two years has pushed some of its best players to literally quit the game. In no scenario or circumstance is it a good thing that guys like Chaith are leaving your game in droves.

Obtena.7952:

Ok well, at least I know which one of us won’t be back here in 4 years complaining about the same issues and playing classes they don’t like. Anet isn’t going to tell you any different either. They give you choice to exercise for a reason. If you decide the most effective option for you to solve this problem is one you aren’t going to exercise, there isn’t much more to say.

Stay stubborn and angry I guess.

Angry? Over what? I just finished solo-queuing my alt account from silver 2 to platinum in ~100 games. I’m beginning to seriously think you lack the mental acuity to understand what it means for a class to be “fine” but “not meta.”

But given the fact that you repeatedly fail to answer my questions regarding your PvP/raiding experience, I’m not entirely sure if you even understand why we classify things as “meta” in the first place, or what being in the meta even means.

If we’re all being honest between ourselves here, the only one being stubborn here is you.