(edited by Obtena.7952)
Will Engineer survive 2017 if unchanged?
This is part of the reason that I believe that Anet, for the majority of the instances, does not balance by performance relative to other classes.
Erm, what…?
ArenaNet didn’t nerf quickness in 2013 for any other reason except that it made Time Warp way too powerful an elite skill and placed a disproportionate importance on mesmer in dungeons. It’s the same reason they nerfed the Fiery Greatsword on elementalist, One Hundred Blades on warrior, and Black Powder on thief.
These changes did not affect the “flavor” or “concept” of the class. They literally only addressed each profession’s performance relative to those around them. Hell, Time Warp, Hundred Blades, Black Powder, and the Fiery Greatsword all still do the same things they always have. They just nerfed them because they made the above classes hilariously overrepresented in dungeons.
There was a point in time when people ran four warriors and one mesmer in dungeons, and the fact that you think this just magically overnight was changed “for flavor” is incredibly short-sighted and just plain false. ArenaNet doesn’t want one profession completely dominating a single game mode, and they want profession balance to be healthy enough that every class is worth bringing to something and contributes something unique (but not individually superlative) to the group. They want us to make competitive choices regarding our builds and compositions, and they absolutely balance this game around what is and isn’t currently participating in the meta-game.
It’s the same reason Incendiary Powder was nerfed, buffed, and moved around the Explosives line for three years until they just made it a grandmaster trait in the Firearms line in 2015. Even though the issue with IP was much less a macro issue than meta-game balance between professions, all the changes made to the trait over the years were about giving us stronger trait diversity in Explosives (and now Firearms) and enhance tier/tree trait competition.
Moving it around didn’t change anything about the “flavor” or “concept” of the engineer; it was purely to address the fact that the tier was a god amongst peasants no matter how much they nerfed it, and that only by placing it with Mod Ammo did it finally end up in a tier with competitive alternatives.
And just as Incendiary Powder was buffed, nerfed, and moved around because of its strength relative to its tiers, the nerfs to Time Warp, Black Powder, Hundred Blades, Fiery Greatsword, and the other hundreds if not thousands of both drastic and minute changes to utilities, traits, and weapons across all professions in the game since 2012 were each made relative to what everyone else was doing and how everyone else was performing at the time.
To attempt to argue otherwise is just silly, and the deeper implication you’d be making with such a statement, that ArenaNet would somehow make balance changes to traits, weapons, and utilities in a vacuum is just asinine.
I imagine if someone like Irenio read your post he’d have a stroke, if he even made it that far through this thread.
I believe their main goal is to maintain the class flavour. This thinking is not a stretch of the imagination.
Really? They come out with an expansion where mesmers have wells, necromancers have shouts and swing a greatsword, guardians use traps and have access to stealth, and you think their main goal is to maintain class flavor?
You really just don’t have a freaking clue, man.
Besides, the word you’re fumbling around isn’t “flavor” or “concept” but aesthetic.
We’re the goofball tinkerer whose turrets break down when overcharged, consumes elixirs with random effects, and even has his own gyros explode on him. This aesthetic sticks with us regardless of whether or not we’re invited to raids, just like the aesthetic that guardians do a bunch of blue things with swords and crosses, or that necromancers do a lot of green things and run around with a bunch of phallus monsters.
It’s a cool feature, and it’s a nice thing that ArenaNet should be commended for, but it has nothing to do with class balance and just because I like the way my engineer looks that doesn’t mean I automatically like the way it’s currently playing.
[EG] Ethereal Guardians
(edited by Phineas Poe.3018)
We’re asking “Why?” and “Can we please have our original class utility back?” But no, we’re told by Mr. White Knight “Go play another class.” We here are not Johnny-Come-Latelys, we’ve played this class enough to know when we are getting the short end of the stick in nearly all content.
This is the crux of the issue. You don’t tell someone that has been playing a class for over four thousand hours that they chose the wrong class (seriously wtf?) or that they should just up and main another profession just because we are currently undertuned in PvE and call them wrong for requesting to give us back the utility the profession used to have.
“The busyness is intentional.” What a joke. Who intentionally designs a build that does less DPS than half the classes in the game and yet is the hardest build to play conceivably in any game mode in the entire history of this game, especially when the power build literally runs in circles spamming bombs on auto for near identical damage. Condi engi was almost universally panned by the community when HoT came out but at least we had value in wing one that made up for it.
It’s a terrible build and ArenaNet knows it. That’s why there is an overhaul in the development pipeline. They can even keep us running three kits if they have to but if it doesn’t DPS to the level of a staff elementalist on all bosses the build will continue to be passed over for other classes for reasons that are obvious to anyone that has stepped into a raid.
Maybe Obtena wasn’t aware of or active at the time so I forgive him, but the PvE community almost unanimously asked for our elite spec to finally get us away from using kits. Little did we know at the time that not only would we not even use the spec in PvE but we were forced into a build that put even more kits on our bar. The truly sad thing is that ArenaNet was actually successful in getting us away from kits with the scrapper; they just failed at making scrapper worth taking in PvE instances.
The Slick Shoes nerf to this day also completely baffles me. The skill was terrible for over three years and when it finally had a use it got completely gutted.
This is why I asked if he even raids or PvPs. There’s just so much ignorance mixed with arrogance in this thread.
Where did you hear of this rumored overhaul?
Not accusatory, honestly curious and a bit hopeful. There are definitely things about the profession that I suspect the original designers regret and the newer ones wonder what was being imbibed at the time (like how kits work vs. Ele attunements and Rev Legends, bet making them utility slot skills allowing for 3-5 at a time have made them the textbook definition of “balancing nightmare”)
Right … so finding a class that works for you that you like to play is completely stupid …
No, it’s not completely stupid to find a class that works for you and to find one that you like to play. What’s completely stupid is you failing to figure out I went through that process in 2012.
I don’t get why that’s not an ongoing process for you if you’re concern is performance. See, the concept of the engi hasn’t changed, so if you choose the class based on concept, but complain about performance, you’re just being unreasonable because those two things are not equivalent; one evolves despite the persistence of the other. Choose properly for the right reasons and you don’t encounter your situation. Thinking you can and should always have the concept you like with the performance you want is not realistic. This is part of the reason that I believe that Anet, for the majority of the instances, does not balance by performance relative to other classes. I believe their main goal is to maintain the class flavour. This thinking is not a stretch of the imagination.
If you choose based on performance, then you should be prepared to use highly performing classes as the game evolves. If you choose based on concept, then as long as Anet doesn’t change the class concept, you shouldn’t have problems with game evolution. Those two things are very different … which one did you use to choose engi?
Different is not exclusive.
If I picked Engineer based on concept/playstyle, then I would think I would want to be welcomed playing that profession wherever I go, and, as an empathetic human being, not feel as if I am in some way hindering the party/raid/team’s performance because I insist on playing a profession that I like even though I could bring something that would work noticeably better. On top of that, having a desire to play that goes beyond performance, I have likely spent even more time and effort in learning the class and decking out the best gear I could afford, and probably had even taken it a step further, spending gold or gems on outfits and weapon/armor pieces and makeover kits for the latest new faces and hairstyles and built a Legendary or two.
As someone that has spent over a thousand hours over the last 4 years playing Engineer, who has spent thousands of gems on cosmetics for her, has gathered together two separate ascended gear sets and recently built HOPE, telling me that I should either be happy with the lackluster situation we have or move on to another class if I don’t like how it preforms today in frankly demeaning to the time and effort I had placed in my Engineer.
If I picked Engineer based on concept/playstyle, then I would think I would want to be welcomed playing that profession wherever I go, and, as an empathetic human being, not feel as if I am in some way hindering the party/raid/team’s performance because I insist on playing a profession that I like even though I could bring something that would work noticeably better. .
Yeah, that sounds good. I don’t disagree. I would think the same thing. Our problem is that what we think is irrelevant. That’s not how many players view the game, so people like us that think this way either conform or have to work around that issue.
This is part of the reason that I believe that Anet, for the majority of the instances, does not balance by performance relative to other classes.
Erm, what…?
Amazing right? To think that Anet makes changes around things that aren’t only about relative class balance. I’m going to let you think about it a bit because there are many changes that have nothing to do with class balance. Anet doesn’t chase the meta in case you haven’t noticed … and in the case they do, they are absolutely terrible at it. Either way, I’m not far off here. Like I said … I won’t be the one complaining about class balance in 4 years. Meta changes, so does class performance with it.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Way to ignore everything he posted, uh.
By the way, it’s not like they’re even bothering to follow their own designs. Turrets are still described even now as “devices that help defend and control an area”. Yeah, good luck with that, they either die in a couple seconds (in pvp/wvw) or are so bad in doing so that they’re better used as disposable devices.
And despite what you may say about devs being unconcerned by balance, they got nerfed due to that…as something that defends and controls an area ended up being too perfect for a mode that’s all about defending and controlling some areas.
But it’s not like they ever bothered changing them to make them balanced and still follow their design. They just forgot about them and gone on.
i took this post seriously until i tinkered around in the build calc and realized the insane access to buffs high toughness and lack of requirement to mix stats.
You not only ignored everything I said and just responded to the first line of my post, you doubled-down on the very argument I’ve already proved is not just completely false but doesn’t even make sense from a development perspective. You can’t buff or nerf a skill without taking into consideration how it affects the health of the profession or its performance relative to those around it. To do so is just incompetent.
I’m going to let you think about it a bit because there are many changes that have nothing to do with class balance.
Really? So we’re going from “the majority” to “many” changes. That’s some progress in my book. I originally planned to ask you to list one such change, but considering I listed the FGS, Black Powder, Time Warp, One Hundred Blades, and Incendiary Powder as examples of inter-profession trait/skill/utility balancing (directly related to the meta-game), I think it’s only fair that you list five examples of ArenaNet making changes to professions that have “nothing to do with class balance” to better substantiate your point.
If there are truly “many” changes to draw from, it shouldn’t be that hard to do.
I eagerly await your reply.
[EG] Ethereal Guardians
(edited by Phineas Poe.3018)
He doesn’t get it Phineas. I play Ranger when I want to farm SW. I use SB and Staff and have a condition build with a little bit of mobility. It’s not meta but it works for me. Now is it logical that I pop my head over to the Ranger forums and tell those who are discussing the state of Ranger that “Hey guys, Ranger works for me, here’s my build, the class doesn’t need any changes. If you’re unhappy go play another class.” ?
You’re absolutely right in your analysis. Engie used to be a well used class, but then has been nerfed continually so that other classes achieve better results in less time. We’re asking “Why?” and “Can we please have our original class utility back?” But no, we’re told by Mr. White Knight “Go play another class.” We here are not Johnny-Come-Latelys, we’ve played this class enough to know when we are getting the short end of the stick in nearly all content.
@shion- What rank are you? Just curious, since I’d be surprised to see that in the Legendary tier. If you are Legendary or Plat with that build, you have my congratulations.
I believe Phineas meant that since the Scrapper line was very powerful when released, to stay effective with the powerspikes given to other classes we Engis had to take that line. No one is forcing you to choose anything in any content if you are playing for yourself. However, if you raid, do fractals, dungeons, or PvP you are expected to pick not just a viable build (which are many) but an optimal build (which are few)
I was rank 181 in January. Think that’s the highest I made it. Have been in platinum 4 different times over my games and cycling down through lower gold. Currently just below platinum if I recall its hard to keep up.
Pretty much where I end up has nothing to do with my play so really whether my build is viable or not could not be determined by whether I happened to be top 250 or mid silver, as that is no indication of skill or build effectiveness.
Some people tell me I’m outstanding, others that I should uninstall. I really don’t think where in the constant cycling I end up at the end of the season will have anything to do with my build viability. Your welcome to play with me if you like, that’s really the only way to tell.
Way to ignore everything he posted, uh.
By the way, it’s not like they’re even bothering to follow their own designs. Turrets are still described even now as “devices that help defend and control an area”. Yeah, good luck with that, they either die in a couple seconds (in pvp/wvw) or are so bad in doing so that they’re better used as disposable devices.
And despite what you may say about devs being unconcerned by balance, they got nerfed due to that…as something that defends and controls an area ended up being too perfect for a mode that’s all about defending and controlling some areas.
But it’s not like they ever bothered changing them to make them balanced and still follow their design. They just forgot about them and gone on.
It’s not hard. He wants to delve in the weeds and argue the minutia of why changes are made. Even if some details are debatable, that doesn’t make me wrong. I don’t need to get down there to know that being non-meta doesn’t make a class a welfare case for dev changes or that the class even performs poorly, which is the point in the first place. I don’t build strawmans around people playing with fire.
The fact is simple, Anet doesn’t make changes to chase meta … or if they do, they are so bad at it that you wouldn’t even know that’s what they are aiming to do (as you’re point about turrets actually illustrates really well). Therefore, using meta as a reason to request class changes is ridiculous, for that reason, as well as many others that everyone wants to ignore.
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Anet doesn’t have to ‘chase the meta’ when skill balancing but, as with pretty much every class based MMO, they will pay attention to it. Its a good indication to see what professions may be over powered in some areas and underpowered in others.
Currently Engineers are underpowered in most game modes, based on what they can bring to the team as a whole. Anything we can do another profession can do more effectively or easier and we don’t have a gimmick that makes up for that shortfall (Bomb Kit 1 having a blast finisher via trait for example).
Using the meta to highlight the reasons for requesting skill and/or trait changes is perfectly valid in this case. Its showing that against the other professions, the Engineer needs an update to make it competitive when it comes to being selected for organised raids/fractals/PvP/WvW etc.
The only thing highlighting the meta does is show it’s not optimal, because that’s what the meta is about, optimized solutions for specific content. That has nothing to do with how good the class is. If you want to highlight how underpowered it is, forget about talking about meta.
why wouldnt you want to talk about engis distinct lack of group buffs when the pve and wvw metas revolve heavily around sharing your buffs with the maximum amount of people possible because doing so adds more damage than being selfish. why wouldnt you want to talk about the hoops engi has to jump through to get 5 blasts on a fire field while a rev leaves 2 facets active or a warrior pushes 2 every once in a while. how is this irrelevant to the meta. this is exactly why engi gets overlooked. its not because engi is bad, its because few people want to bother with that kind of effort when its so easily subverted by your supposed co-operators and outdone effortlessly and nonunique.
JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions
I don’t build strawmans around people playing with fire.
And yet all you’ve done is strawman throughout this entire thread. For example:
So you can correct me but basically … too much buttons to press in PVE and is too easy to play in PVP/WvW … have I got the basic jist? Those aren’t the hallmarks of a class that has poor performance.
You say that “even if some details are debatable, that doesn’t make me wrong,” but you can’t even come up with five examples—or even a single one—to substantiate what you’re talking about.
Worse yet, you double-down on your assertions that I am wrong despite giving you multiple layered posts full of evidence to support what I’m arguing:
Therefore, using meta as a reason to request class changes is ridiculous, for that reason, as well as many others that everyone wants to ignore.
It’s just comical at this point. You claim that you’re not wrong with no evidence to support your position but I am “ridiculous” for requesting class changes based on the meta when that’s what they’ve done for the past four years—with plenty of examples already shown to support that. I’d even be happy to run down the list of most major changes made to the engineer in the past year like Rocket Charge, gyro daze, Rapid Regeneration, and Slick Shoes and show how every single one of those nerfs was made entirely because of our performance.
Cue the laugh track.
The fact is simple, Anet doesn’t make changes to chase meta … or if they do, they are so bad at it that you wouldn’t even know that’s what they are aiming to do (as you’re point about turrets actually illustrates really well).
So now you’re not only continuing to assert that I’m wrong despite the now-hilarious lack of evidence in any of your posts to support such an assertion, you’re now insulting ArenaNet’s balance team over things you obviously don’t understand—or aren’t willing to understand.
ArenaNet was very clear and descriptive why turrets were nerfed, and it’s something the PvP community almost unanimously demanded.
“Fire and forget” builds never survive very long in PvP/WvW simply because they’re just not fun to play against. At least with ranger pets there’s a level of micromanagement, but with engi turrets, necromancer minions, guardian spirit weapons, warrior banners, or ranger spirits, it’s simply winning through pet AI. There have been multiple stages in which these types of builds dominate the meta, and they’re almost always taken down swiftly.
What ArenaNet did to engineer turrets is just another plot point of an obvious (and desirable) trend and wasn’t at all a sign of incompetence. It just always sometimes ends up where buffing/nerfing something unintentionally overpowers something else. It’s why we refer to the process as “balance.” It’ll always be a balancing act, and ideally speaking it’s how it has to be.
[EG] Ethereal Guardians
(edited by Phineas Poe.3018)
Let me ask you a very simple question:
If Anet balances according to performance AND Engi’s are as bad off as you want us to believe, for whatever reason ….
… where are the fixes that should result from the product of both of those things being true?
Think about that for even just a second … tell me how you reconcile the fact that Engi hasn’t gotten enough balancing fixes to make it balanced for performance relative to other classes, even though you insist those two things are true. Something doesn’t make sense with what you are telling me.
I don’t need to debate with anyone to tell me that ONE of those things can’t be true. I simply look at how the game works to make that conclusion.
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If Anet balances according to performance AND Engi’s are as bad off as you want us to believe, for whatever reason ….
… where are the fixes that should result from the product of both of those things being true?
I have been told a fairly large balance patch is coming next month and includes some major QoL/balance fixes for the engineer. You’re welcome to not believe me; it makes no difference to me. In time you’ll know the truth of the matter.
Think about that for even just a second … tell me how you reconcile the fact that Engi hasn’t gotten enough balancing fixes to make it balanced for performance relative to other classes, even though you insist those two things are true. Something doesn’t make sense with what you are telling me.
Part of the problem is that ArenaNet, for the majority of this game’s life, didn’t balance PvE and PvP separately. They didn’t really have to, as PvE was really easy and having 5-man content dominate both game modes made class identity easy to maintain. They also didn’t really have to because it’s not a big deal if one class doesn’t do well in one game mode when it’s a meta profession in another. It’s fine that engineer, for example, is a mediocre PvE class so long as it’s incredibly valued in PvP.
So to really get to the crux of what you’re suggesting here: the engineer does get the balance fixes to make its performance relative to other classes, but it’s almost exclusively directed to how we perform in PvP.
The problem is that since the Heart of Thorns launch most of these balance fixes have been nerfs, and these nerfs further reduced any potential value we could have had in PvE. To make matters worse, our “jack of all trades” design just doesn’t translate well to 10-man content as well as it does to 5-man content. This is something I’ve already explained to you:
A team’s success is measured by the sum of its parts. Not to so heavily switch gears from PvP, but I think this is best represented in higher-end PvE content.
If one class, say necromancer, does less damage than a staff elementalist, you are directly hindering your group’s performance playing the former over the latter. Skills and buffs may be dispersed over multiple members of the party, but professions are favored over who disperses these best and elevates the party’s DPS the most.
Even though support builds like a PS warrior, a chronomancer, or a druid don’t top damage meters, they’re still very much sought-after in any half-decent group composition for this reason. Individually a druid doesn’t do much DPS, but between Grace of the Land, spirits, and fury they greatly elevate group DPS while providing substantial healing support. The same goes for warriors with their banners and might, and chronomancers with their alacrity. As such these builds present themselves as being invaluable to any raid group, elevating the team to be greater than the sum of their parts, rendering them essentially irreplaceable. You just won’t get the same group performance without them.
You could complete all three wings without having a chronomancer, druid, or PS warrior on your team, but it wouldn’t be smooth, and it absolutely wouldn’t be worth the struggle and headache. Their absence would be … noticeable.
But just to reiterate something, though: an engineer historically was brought to dungeon and fractal groups pre-Heart of Thorns because of its ability to stack might, vulnerability, and stealth. Conceptually speaking we didn’t provide as much stealth as a thief did and we didn’t provide as much might as a warrior did, but we brought enough to cover the bases and the grenade kit’s absolutely ludicrous vulnerability stacking potential made us incredibly valuable in fractal 50 runs (and to a lesser extent level 100 runs today).
Our vulnerability stacking has since become entirely replaceable thanks to Heart of Thorns power creep and the fact that vulnerability is capped at 25; it’s not hard at all for a raid group to almost instantly hit and keep 25 stacks of vulnerability on a raid boss. Additionally, while we still stack might as well as we did before, we do so running a build that presents substantially less DPS than a PS warrior brings to the table. Stealth, on the other hand, has lost a lot of its appeal due to fractal island redesigns and raid instance layouts lessening the need for it and dungeons now being absolutely faceroll.
When Heart of Thorns came out we still retained some degree of utility through Slick Shoes to break defiance bars, but when the utility was nerfed we were almost immediately brought to heel by revenants and their staff/Shiro elite.
[EG] Ethereal Guardians
That’s nice and all, but that doesn’t answer my question…. you say anet is balancing for performance and engi is terrible … I mean, those things can’t be true in the same universe. I mean, forget engi altogether … there are 8 more classes you can look at and ask yourself the same question. Even when they do a balancing patch … are you going to sit there and tell me that all the sudden, all classes fixed and balanced? They should be according to you … I’ve yet to see that happen … and we have had numerous balancing patches in the history of this game. So again … we’ve HAD balancing patches … yet I’m still seeing things not balanced according to performance. Gee, how does that happen?
Even if you want to think it’s some kind of lack of separation between PVE/PVP … That doesn’t really matter does it? Choose a class that is ‘bad’ in PVE … is it true they are awesome at PVP? I don’t think so. You would think that Anet … if they are balancing according to performance like you say … would choose at least one of those to target for balancing … well I guess not ay?
So, ultimately, Nothing we say really matters … we can both look at the game and make the same observations. I just don’t know how you come to the conclusions you have if you are seeing the same things I’m talking about here.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
That’s nice and all, but that doesn’t answer my question…. you say anet is balancing for performance and engi is terrible
This is you strawmanning again. I never said “engi is terrible.” I said that engineer is not a participant of the meta-game. I think the worst thing I said is that the engineer has always been a pretty mediocre PvE profession outside of high level fractals, but that we made up for that by being amazing in PvP. So to promptly respond to:
Choose a class that is ‘bad’ in PVE … is it true they are awesome at PVP? I don’t think so.
Necromancer and, prior to Heart of Thorns, engineer are both pretty obvious examples of this. It’s bizarre you ask that question when I’ve already shown how this is the case.
It might help if you actually read my posts before you respond.
… I mean, those things can’t be true in the same universe. I mean, forget engi altogether … there are 8 more classes you can look at and ask yourself the same question. Even when they do a balancing patch … are you going to sit there and tell me that all the sudden, all classes fixed and balanced? They should be according to you … I’ve yet to see that happen … and we have had numerous balancing patches in the history of this game. So again … we’ve HAD balancing patches … yet I’m still seeing things not balanced according to performance. Gee, how does that happen?
Well, it happens for a number of reasons.
First, Guild Wars 2 is an incredibly different game from how it was when it launched. While introducing new content like fractals, raids, and stronghold have absolutely convoluted the balance process, it’s important to note that there have been a number of macro-level changes made to the game. They’ve added and removed stat combinations, runes, and sigils; they’ve overhauled trait lines and the very trait system itself; they’ve added elite specializations and new weapons; and they’ve changed how boons like quickness and stability work, while adding new boons like resistance to the game.
This shifting of the goalposts has resulted in ArenaNet being in a perpetual catch-up state with regard to balance, and it’s important to identify that a lot of the balance problems the game was dealing with in 2012-2013 with regard to dungeons aren’t quite the same problems the game is dealing with in 2017 with regard to raids. Guild Wars 2, like many cooperative and competitive online games, is in a constant state of flux. There will never be a point in which balance is perfect in any online video game.
Even a game like World of Warcraft that is over 10 years old is still struggling to make every profession equally relevant in every aspect of the game. It’s just not possible, so you should at least aim for them all to be useful somewhere—which aside from the status quo of revenant and engineer, has historically been done fairly well by ArenaNet.
Second, balancing an incredibly complex game like Guild Wars 2 is an awful lot like the phenomenon referred to as “spaghetti code.” With three different game modes, balancing Guild Wars 2 without skill splitting will result in completely unintentional buffs and nerfs to professions, and will introduce some bugs as well.
So, ultimately, Nothing we say really matters … we can both look at the game and make the same observations. I just don’t know how you come to the conclusions you have if you are seeing the same things I’m talking about here.
Or we can do as we always have and continue to make suggestions and recommendations to make the class better, rather than coming in here and arguing with me over stupid kitten.
You’re welcome to just not participate in that process if you think it’s pointless, though I’m not sure you’d contribute much in the way of thoughtful feedback in the first place unless you actually raid or play PvP semi-competitively—which at this point seems not to be the case. Or is it? You’re so talkative and yet you’re suspiciously quiet on these topics.
I also think it’s fairly important to note that while rev and engi feel kinda “meh” this season, this is the best and most balanced meta ArenaNet has cobbled together since at least before the Celestial amulet was added to the game in 2013. This may be the most balanced meta this game has ever had.
[EG] Ethereal Guardians
(edited by Phineas Poe.3018)
That’s nice and all, but that doesn’t answer my question…. you say anet is balancing for performance and engi is terrible
This is you strawmanning again. I never said “engi is terrible.” I said that engineer is not a participant of the meta-game.
Whatever you want to call it, I still don’t see the fixes that you claim this non-meta status deserves if Anet balances according to performance like you say they do. Tell me, how long has Engi not been meta?
Second, balancing an incredibly complex game like Guild Wars 2 is an awful lot like the phenomenon referred to as “spaghetti code.” With three different game modes, balancing Guild Wars 2 without skill splitting will result in completely unintentional buffs and nerfs to professions, and will introduce some bugs as well.
Yup, so what I said stands. There are two possibilities … Anet doesn’t balance like you think, or they can’t do it… I don’t really care why because it’s not relevant. I mean, you’re just acknowledging what I’ve already said a few times … WITH a reason. If this is the most balanced meta this game has ever had after all the balancing patches we have seen … and we still don’t have most classes relevant to the meta that you claim is a relevant measure of balance … should make you wonder about what you think is true or not. You know you might be right thought. Maybe in 10 years, Anet might just achieve balancing class performance at the pace they are currently ‘achieving’ things. I can’t wait … LITERALLY.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Whatever you want to call it, I still don’t see the fixes that you claim this non-meta status deserves if Anet balances according to performance like you say they do. Tell me, how long has Engi not been meta?
I feel I cannot answer that, as I’ve been playing Black Desert and World of Warcraft for the past 9 months and not really keeping up to date with what was going on in Guild Wars 2. If I hadn’t have had an old guildie reach out to me through Steam that season five was solo/duo-only I actually wouldn’t even be here.
I can say, however, that things are definitely not as good as they were when I quit around this time last year or when I returned for a brief stint in April.
Though the way you word your post seems to make it appear as if I’m arguing ArenaNet intentionally kicked engineer out of the meta, that’s not at all what I’m suggesting. The scrapper specialization was absolutely overpowered when Heart of Thorns first launched and deserved a lot of what it received; all of the elite specializations were egregiously overpowered to some capacity and needed to be reined in (and the biggest offenders have been in my absence).
What I think was less intended were the ramifications the PvP nerfs put on us in PvE, even when we weren’t running the scrapper specialization. The truth of the matter is that a lot of our core traits were redesigned around the scrapper specialization existing, and because Heart of Thorns content is also largely designed around the elite specializations and not core specializations, because we don’t run it in PvE, we’re objectively disadvantaged.
What happened to us over the past year is just a huge oversight that first revealed itself in the 2015 trait overhaul—the effects of which are still being felt today.
Yup, so what I said stands. There are two possibilities … Anet doesn’t balance like you think, or they can’t do it… I don’t really care why because it’s not relevant. I mean, you’re just acknowledging what I’ve already said a few times … WITH a reason. If this is the most balanced meta this game has ever had after all the balancing patches we have seen … and we still don’t have most classes relevant to the meta that you claim is a relevant measure of balance … should make you wonder about what you think is true or not. You know you might be right thought. Maybe in 10 years, Anet might just achieve balancing class performance at the pace they are currently ‘achieving’ things. I can’t wait … LITERALLY.
If you think this is bad I really think you owe it to yourself to play other MMORPGs. Guild Wars 2 is among the most balanced of any I’ve played in the past five years—and I’ve played a lot of them.
Even a game like ArcheAge that touts itself for having literally hundreds of class combinations ultimately revolves around how many skullknights and revenants you can cobble together in land PvP. Outside of a couple clerics, literally nothing else matters.
[EG] Ethereal Guardians
Being ‘most balanced’ compared to other MMOs does not mean ‘balanced’ in the game itself. What I think if GW2 is good or bad is not relevant. I see that Anet has not achieved balance by relative class performance, despite deliberate balancing efforts. That leads me to not jump to conclusions about why Anet makes changes and how that’s related to the meta … or not.
Whatever you want to call it, I still don’t see the fixes that you claim this non-meta status deserves if Anet balances according to performance like you say they do. Tell me, how long has Engi not been meta?
since the slick shoes nerf a while after raid release.
since then, ele has remained Top Dps Class, other meta classes have more useful buffs, engis old role of vuln and might stacking has still been outdated (since HoT), and fractal pugs have gradually embraced necros more and more because of how easy it is to play and survive on one even though engis many blinds, blasts, and offensive team support are still “better” (especially since the lich and rise nerfs). in open world, people have always chosen more mobile things for map completion and staff guard is the ruler of zergable content (not that engi is bad at it, but hey they buffed staff guard cuz now you can hold down 1 to keep spamming instead of having to push it a bunch). anywhere that you need to break a bar, bring something else: basi venom, electric wyvern, rev staff 5, headbutt + shield bash, continuum split gravity well + shield, flesh golem, shocking aura, and bane signet + banish + spear pull are all easier than engis 10 button combo to shoot off 5 ccs over 7 secs and break more of the bar.
…oh and engi was supposed to be good at cc. LOL.
JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions
(edited by insanemaniac.2456)
I remember when someone asked what is scrappers role in raids, anet answered the role is to break cc bar.
Even then, no one played scrapper in raids. Anet dedices to nerf slick shoes. No one played scrapper still. Anet removes gyro daze.
So what is the role of scrapper in raids now?
(edited by guildabd.6529)
Whatever you want to call it, I still don’t see the fixes that you claim this non-meta status deserves if Anet balances according to performance like you say they do. Tell me, how long has Engi not been meta?
since the slick shoes nerf a while after raid release.
So basically … IF Anet is balancing to achieve class performance, they have sucked at doing so since raid release? That’s a powerful kind of fail at balance for performance if you ask me … if that’s the truth of course. Anyone still think Anet is targeting meta and balancing for performance? I don’t.
I remember when someone asked what is scrappers role in raids, anet answered the role is to break cc bar.
Even then, no one played scrapper in raids. Anet dedices to nerf slick shoes. No one played scrapper still. Anet removes gyro daze.
So what is the role of scrapper in raids now?
Slick shoes was not nerfed because raids – but open world bosses. I remember how I alone shoot down all vinetooth cc bar, wywerns etc.
On the other hand, slick shoes only open engi doors for gorseval and meaby slothy.
Scrapper can be good superspeed sharer, but if we don’t have some mobility mechanics at bosses, and every proffesion have teleports/movement abilities, I don’t think that scrapper will ever be pve viable.
So, why ppl are not happy with our role/scrappy? This is what community was want – some alternative to avoid kits. Here you have it, so enjoy it. For me – gyros have design and functionallity like 10 year old alpha rpg.
“Doctor suggest me, to stop play with engi because my fingers are broken.
So.. I start play scrapper. "
So.. I start play scrapper. "
In short, yes.
Power engi does perfectly fine at raids and I can probably beat many pug eles in terms of dps. It can do cannons at sabetha, mortars at trio, orbs at Xera, and so on and so forth. The only 2 things it’s really bad at are greens at VG (but your chronos should distort anyway if you’re in a premade. Fair enough if it’s PUG) and stun-breaking at Sloth (just no. Get an ele for this).
The long answer is much more convoluted.
Far Shiverpeaks
Yada yada the usual….
Give us meaningfull group support on gadgets/turrets so we can drop some kits, have an easier rotation and groups want engis for raids.
Make throw elixirs not projectiles anymore and gyros not minions anymore so we can be reliable superspeed bots in wvw.
Buff rifle so we can choose another weapon in pvp.
Also healing bombs so support engi can be a thing again.
Poe: I think your stance over the last several pages of back and forth can be summed up fairly succinctly. I’ve seen you around and I have read your informative engineer guides in the past so I’m not going to question your understanding of the class. The thing is, I don’t think one would play such a class unless you’ve got a Johnny streak to some degree, to borrow the old M:tG player archetype terminology. I think the issue is that you also self identify as a Spike and right now that concern is overriding any joy you’re deriving from playing a unique class. You want to win and you want engineer to be the best at some kind of role so that it can presumably have a place in team compositions in team based game modes by edging out some other option. And that’s a perfectly valid aspiration to have.
I think, however, I’m going to agree with Obtena’s general view that A-Net shouldn’t balance based on player perception of the current metagame. Instead, I just think they should start regularly throwing wrenches into everything for the competitive scene while tamping down outliers. Changing it up in ways that will scramble the tiers and roles of classes in order to keep PvP interesting. It doesn’t tend to be fun anymore when the outcome is known for every matchup. There should always be tech to discover or revisit. In the future, there may be a role for jack of all trades classes like the engineer. Or there may not.
In the meanwhile, keep practicing when you feel like playing engineer but if you want to win more consistently with less effort, switch it up. No shame in that, except if you really want to Johnny and Spike at the same time in which case, you’ll have to be patient and wait for the winds to change. You could always just not give a skritt and play engineer no matter what. Take the L occasionally and feel good when you squeeze out a win over the current fromage of the month.
Right, so instead of providing feedback to the company that makes the game we pay for and consume, instead of giving them criticism and suggestions about the class we spend a majority of our time on, we should just shut up and take it.
Oke doke
http://icrontic.com/uploads/features/tech/2011/09/nothing_to_see_here.jpg
Right, so instead of providing feedback to the company that makes the game we pay for and consume, instead of giving them criticism and suggestions about the class we spend a majority of our time on, we should just shut up and take it.
Oke doke
http://icrontic.com/uploads/features/tech/2011/09/nothing_to_see_here.jpg
No, you should provide feedback, but people shuld be doing it properly. The forums are for feedback, not protest. I think it’s really important for people to understand what kinds of real changes Anet is going to be willing to make and you can do that by observing the history and the evolution of the game. Balancing to what players perceive as meta is NOT one of those things Anet does. They can’t.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
I think the issue is that you also self identify as a Spike and right now that concern is overriding any joy you’re deriving from playing a unique class.
I’m not very familiar with Magic the Gathering outside of what’s common knowledge, so I don’t really fully understand your “Spike” or “Johnny streak” terminology. So I apologize if my reply doesn’t adequately address the real substance of your response.
But I think you have this all backwards. My concerns aren’t overriding the joy I derive playing my engineer. The lack of joy I derive playing my engineer drives my concerns.
We don’t hard-counter anyone in PvP and we don’t offer anything integral to a raid group. If anything, I feel like engi has switched roles in PvE and WvW in that engi used to be this fringe profession in WvW that, while useful, never contributed to the level a guardian, warrior, elementalist, or necromancer in either the hammer train or pirate ship metas. But with the scrapper, engi actually offers something useful versus both compositions that is incredibly difficult to replicate on other professions. We’re still not a meta class there, but there is still the occasional situation where I magnet pull the enemy zerg’s commander and I’m thanked for being there over Teamspeak.
The truth is, there is almost no situation in which the engineer is given an opportunity to flourish, and it’s almost always the impacts of others that determine our success. There are so many PvP matches I’m in where I do 23-25% of our team’s damage, running around like a headless chicken, bending over backwards to revive my team fight after fight in a match we end up losing, all because the classes that are actually responsible for downing other players can’t do their jobs.
I think, however, I’m going to agree with Obtena’s general view that A-Net shouldn’t balance based on player perception of the current metagame. Instead, I just think they should start regularly throwing wrenches into everything for the competitive scene while tamping down outliers.
Change for the sake of change is never a good idea.
No shame in that, except if you really want to Johnny and Spike at the same time in which case, you’ll have to be patient and wait for the winds to change.
I do play the engineer no matter what and that has managed to get me two accounts into platinum, but that’s neither here nor there. Telling me to play other classes is kind of an empty suggestion and doesn’t really change anything or help anyone. Heck, telling me to “wait for the winds to change” implies that ArenaNet makes balance changes regarding professions without player complaints or feedback, but the past 4 years have shown exactly the opposite.
There was a time and place when engineer did nothing but spam grenades in dungeons and fractals. We begrudgingly did it, and while guys like Nike and Guanglai proudly championed this I’m sure you remember me as one of the more vocal proponents to having the bomb kit and flamethrower have a bigger place in the meta and make multiple suggestions. The power build now spams bombs and the condi build runs both. I’m not saying this to claim that I individually made this happen so much as to establish that community feedback matters. As a community, together, we made a very real and convincing statement to ArenaNet that there are more desireable ways to play the engineer than just spamming grenades—and they listened.
ArenaNet may not make every or even most decisions based on player feedback, but changes are absolutely made based on popular opinion, and absolutely buff and nerf skills based on “player perception” and the meta-game. Telling people to effectively “shut up and wait patiently” is about the least constructive course of action, because it reduces the community’s role in the development process and removes valuable opportunities for ArenaNet to receive our feedback.
[EG] Ethereal Guardians
(edited by Phineas Poe.3018)
I actually disagree about PvP Phineas, we can 1 v 1 every class except necro. We can even 1 v 2 certain situations as well. We can’t win these matchups, we rely on a plus 1 from our teammates, but we can at least delay and contest nodes until a teammate arrives. I don’t feel scrapper is a good teamfighter but a small skirmisher and node pusher.
It just sucks that’s our only role. I’d like to see a viable Condi roamer build be possible, if we had more mobility it might be acceptable, but I feel scrapper is too good at what it does that unless you have another engi or a druid you’re hurting your team by not playing the meta. Like warrior has two builds, necro kinda has two builds, thief depending on your bracket has two. It’d be nice to have another build that could impact the matchups.
I actually disagree about PvP Phineas, we can 1 v 1 every class except necro. We can even 1 v 2 certain situations as well. We can’t win these matchups, we rely on a plus 1 from our teammates, but we can at least delay and contest nodes until a teammate arrives. I don’t feel scrapper is a good teamfighter but a small skirmisher and node pusher.
I resign to the belief that engineer plays perfectly fine in PvP, but we aren’t a meta profession. We can troll people 1v2 at far and can win a lot of 1v1s, but we’re just not an optimal choice—especially for, as you say, team-fighting, which is what my “headless chicken” comment was largely referring to. You just get much larger gains counter-comping the enemy team by picking anything else.
My bigger concern lies in our PvE performance, either way.
[EG] Ethereal Guardians
Oh I agree with that. I just played 10 games as a necro with my friend. We won 9 of them. I always had either the most damage and/or most kills. And necro is a class I’ve played the least at out of my characters. It’s crazy how hard I would have to work as an engie to be half as effective in PvP compared to Necros.