Guild Wars 2

The analysis is almost right, but you’re forgetting about all the “we are balanced taking in assumption we will use kits, so our main weapons are nerfed and we have a single weapon slot in any case”. That is quite a relevant reason to use kits – we pay for them either way.

Carighan.6758:

I think the issue here is a compound problem resulting of:

1. Kits have a greater-than-average utility value per slot. This is no real surprise, as they offer more abilities than other utility skills.

Although I can agree with this. I also have to give up a slot for stability/stun breaker or a spot for CC I could use to my advantage or even a condition cleanse, to get greater then average utility in a utility slot, that other professions get in a simply weapons swap.

Carighan.6758:

1. Because of this, the raw number of weapon skills available to an Engineer goes up (comparable to an Elementalist, but it’s the class mechanic there, we already have 2x Healing/Utility slots from the Toolbelt as our class mechanic).

Again, the problem here is that in all of that number of skills, none of them are much in form of stun breakers or cleanses, and many of the skills are redundant in their function. It is similar to suggesting that because you own more cars then your neighbor, that your a better driver.

Carighan.6758:

1. As a result, some selections which are universal (read: the normal weapons) are undertuned so as to not overpower the total package.

I think the specific way to more balance here would be to buff the weapons, rebalance the kits, then make them… limited. Say a weapon-swap CD until you can disable the kit again. Or a limited charge model.
This allows to buff some kits, and also to buff up the base weapons.

Under tuned? I do not feel Poison Dart Volley or Static Shot are are under tuned on the MH pistol, but that they are right on, only Explosive shot is under tuned. As well, it used to do double the bleed duration, and was halved, but the dev explanation had nothing to do with your reasoning. That is one issue I see plaguing the engineer forums here. Posters seem to love to give their assumed explanation for something while completely ignoring the fact that Devs have clearly explained the reasoning.

So what I don’t understand, is why you would suggest a line of logic or reasoning on weapon skills that contradicts facts, instead of just going along with the devs actual explanation.

Xyonon.3987 the “pathetic” mes gs > pistol 1.

Mes gs 1 was buffed because it was too weak (now pierces). It’s also a beam attack (no reflections). Pistol 1 being weaker than gs was even before the buff… should be buffed as well.

There shouldn’t be a single button that you never use because it’s just so very bad. The fact that you think pistol 1 should never be used ever just confirms the need for a buff (I disagree that no eng should ever use rifle 1). Look at pistol 2 for thief. It was in the same place that pistol 1 is on eng. It was never used, so they changed it. They never had to use it, but it was totally worthless. It’s still not amazing after the change, but it is at least situationally useful. Mes GS auto is also situationally useful now if you can line up 3 targets and has always been useful against reflections (more of a pvp/wvw benefit).

No one is asking for it to be turned into an orbital ion cannon. It just needs a buff to be useful. Even just increasing the bleed duration would really help. EG auto gives weakness and bleeding (4s). Bump up the pistol auto (doesn’t weaken) up to at least a 3s bleed… or give it a faster RoF… it just needs something.

If eng is made to only be run with 3x kit so you never need to auto attack, why even bother with other utilities? Why even bother giving them an auto attack on pistol if they are supposed to 2-5 with it only? It just doesn’t make any sense.

Aberrant is right. Actually you can delete #1 from your skillbar. Because using pistol#1 should never never never happen.

Forestnator.6298:

Aberrant is right. Actually you can delete #1 from your skillbar. Because using pistol#1 should never never never happen.

It is great for taging mobs in PvE. Particularly if you know your about to need to tag mobs, such as in some of the seasonal events, and swap to coated bullets for help.

Certainly very limited in its ability to deal damage, that is for sure.

I would add: coated bullet is a terrible trait. As it affects 2 skills out of five, yet is a master trait.
Compare with crack shot – 5 skills out of 6 just on the rifle, recharge reduction and it does those things on the harpoon as well – that is getting moved at the adept slot. Or piercing arrows – master trait, but works on any arrow attack.

Imho, they should just integrate that coated bullets in some other trait (even putting it along rifle mod and calling it firearm mod would be better than now).

Manuhell.2759:

I would add: coated bullet is a terrible trait. As it affects 2 skills out of five, yet is a master trait.
Compare with crack shot – 5 skills out of 6 just on the rifle, recharge reduction and it does those things on the harpoon as well – that is getting moved at the adept slot. Or piercing arrows – master trait, but works on any arrow attack.

Imho, they should just integrate that coated bullets in some other trait (even putting it along rifle mod and calling it firearm mod would be better than now).

Yes, it is great for tagging with, but other then that it is a very limiting trait. I have suggested in other post that they have it give static shot an extra bounce, or possibly just getting on with it and expanding the range to 1200.

I think it is better to simply integrate it into some other trait, as you and others have suggested.

I agree on pistol and rifle being weakest #1 skills in the game and need to be improved. And yes, engi rifle #1 is the most boring thing in gw2.

All they need to do with the auto attack on the pistol is swap it with the eg auto attack, i would be much more than happy then! As for the rifle, well yeah it’s just plain pants.

Dajas.4715:

All they need to do with the auto attack on the pistol is swap it with the eg auto attack, i would be much more than happy then! As for the rifle, well yeah it’s just plain pants.

In the betas the pistol #1 was a 4s bleed……….I am still baffled by the decision to nerf it down to 2s.

coglin.1867:

Dajas.4715:

All they need to do with the auto attack on the pistol is swap it with the eg auto attack, i would be much more than happy then! As for the rifle, well yeah it’s just plain pants.

In the betas the pistol #1 was a 4s bleed……….I am still baffled by the decision to nerf it down to 2s.

Iirc it was because the explosion was also causing bleeds at the time.

I dunno about that, I swear I recall the tool tip pointing out that it was a 4s bleed as well. Because they made a few different changes too it. First change was to remove bleeding from the explosion. Which sparked a lot of debate as a nerf. Then 2-3 betas later they cut the skill from 4s down to 2s all together.

coglin.1867:

I dunno about that, I swear I recall the tool tip pointing out that it was a 4s bleed as well. Because they made a few different changes too it. First change was to remove bleeding from the explosion. Which sparked a lot of debate as a nerf. Then 2-3 betas later they cut the skill from 4s down to 2s all together.

You may well be right, it was a long time ago.

yeah the bleeds were awesome in the betas, i remember one off my first builds, it was a p/p hgh elixir build, you auto attack people to death! it did need toning down, but they took it a little to far and the problem with nurfing something that early into the games life, people didn’t really understand the manics of the game, it was a hard hit to us, a small buff would be more than welcome!

Xyonon.3987:

If you use kits? IF you use kits?! IF you use kits?!?!
Dude that’s like you would say “Mesmer are just good if they use illusions” o.O It’s our main mechanic to use kits wtf o.O At least one is a must.

‘IF they use KITS?!!!!" are you serious dude? mesmers use illusions regardless if they slot phantasms in their utility slots or not, so awful comparison is awful. i use one kit, and there are fantastic builds that don’t even use them. you remind me of those shortbow rangers tho think the greatest thing in the universe is the 1 key. our main mechanic is our toolbelt just like mesmer’s main mechanic is shattering its illusions.

Aberrant.6749:

coglin.1867:

I dunno about that, I swear I recall the tool tip pointing out that it was a 4s bleed as well. Because they made a few different changes too it. First change was to remove bleeding from the explosion. Which sparked a lot of debate as a nerf. Then 2-3 betas later they cut the skill from 4s down to 2s all together.

You may well be right, it was a long time ago.

Additional they increased the cast time from 1/4 to 1/2…

So over all:
– 1/4s to 1/2s cast time
– removing bleed from explosion damage
- 4s bleed to 2s bleed.

Nerf to KF is a joke compared to this. If I ever have to explain what ‘nerfed to dead’ means to my children I’ll just say: look at pistol#1. Nougth said.

Lightsbane.9012:

Xyonon.3987:

If you use kits? IF you use kits?! IF you use kits?!?!
Dude that’s like you would say “Mesmer are just good if they use illusions” o.O It’s our main mechanic to use kits wtf o.O At least one is a must.

‘IF they use KITS?!!!!" are you serious dude? mesmers use illusions regardless if they slot phantasms in their utility slots or not, so awful comparison is awful. i use one kit, and there are fantastic builds that don’t even use them. you remind me of those shortbow rangers tho think the greatest thing in the universe is the 1 key. our main mechanic is our toolbelt just like mesmer’s main mechanic is shattering its illusions.

Show me a build that is efficient in PvE dungeons or fotm without using a kit. That’d be great.

Xyonon.3987:

Show me a build that is efficient in PvE dungeons or fotm without using a kit. That’d be great.

Here is one of several.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcIQFAUl0pyUX8y2F17IxoHkmzbG0D9mX/+pAbB-jECBYfBhKIIJPFRjt4qIas6aYKXER12bC1W0KaSBwqwI-w

Let me know if you need more. There are several SD builds that do not focus on kits, as well as a few solid elixir builds.

Some even have solid success with what are referred to as inspector gadget builds

Don’t take that as me suggesting that non-kit builds are great and plentiful. Engineers could certainly use some build diversity outside of kits. I just simply feel your jumping the gun to assume there are not successful non kit builds. Particularly when you think of SD builds. or SD+CC builds with all gadgets used for CC and to trigger SD.

Forestnator.6298:

Aberrant.6749:

coglin.1867:

I dunno about that, I swear I recall the tool tip pointing out that it was a 4s bleed as well. Because they made a few different changes too it. First change was to remove bleeding from the explosion. Which sparked a lot of debate as a nerf. Then 2-3 betas later they cut the skill from 4s down to 2s all together.

You may well be right, it was a long time ago.

Additional they increased the cast time from 1/4 to 1/2…

So over all:
– 1/4s to 1/2s cast time
– removing bleed from explosion damage
- 4s bleed to 2s bleed.

Nerf to KF is a joke compared to this. If I ever have to explain what ‘nerfed to dead’ means to my children I’ll just say: look at pistol#1. Nougth said.

Owch, I wasn’t in the betas so I didn’t know this, thanks Was only remembering from reading about the betas back while waiting for the 3 day early thingie to start.

Xyonon.3987:

Lightsbane.9012:

Xyonon.3987:

If you use kits? IF you use kits?! IF you use kits?!?!
Dude that’s like you would say “Mesmer are just good if they use illusions” o.O It’s our main mechanic to use kits wtf o.O At least one is a must.

‘IF they use KITS?!!!!" are you serious dude? mesmers use illusions regardless if they slot phantasms in their utility slots or not, so awful comparison is awful. i use one kit, and there are fantastic builds that don’t even use them. you remind me of those shortbow rangers tho think the greatest thing in the universe is the 1 key. our main mechanic is our toolbelt just like mesmer’s main mechanic is shattering its illusions.

Show me a build that is efficient in PvE dungeons or fotm without using a kit. That’d be great.

kay, hgh rifle build.
done.

Still ses no efficiency in it. You have no combo fields, nor finisher, no might stack for others, no massheals for others, no high amount of vulnerability (toolbelt skill for vulnerability is ok but too weak compared to grenades n’ bombs). It looks bretty good for soloing but even if I could choose between lets say 7.5k DpS or 5k DpS with 15 stacks vulnerability … well you should be able to calculate what is more efficient for the group. The passive damage of this build is too low.

Jastorm.5972:

Rifle #1: Lowest damage of a 2 handed 3/4sec cast weapon. Boring appearance and doesn’t relate to any of the weapon’s other skills

Pistol#1: Lowest damage of all 1 handed 1/2sec cast and lowest bleed duration of all weapons in game.

Harpoon Gun #1: Not just lowest, but absolutely HORRIBLE damage for the longest underwater cast time for a primary weapon in the game. (warriors hit more damage on one of their 1/4 sec cast shots then we do on our 1sec cast shot! WT Kitten!) No option for a condition build to even attempt to use weapon. Projectile speed is EXTREMELY slow and doesn’t “home in” very well for being called homing Torpedo.

No wonder we feel FORCED to use kits, and at the sacrifice of utility slots ontop of it.

ANET, PLEASE fix our weapons!

Use grenades underwater, you’ll be happy.

Also, Our elite mortar skill sucks.
There is a mortar item that you can get that gives you a mortar as well. AND IT AUTOFIRES. you can do this on another job and pretend to be a better engineer…

Yea An item that gives a better version of your elite skill. I just found it out, and I’m so mad. I bet that the only response it ‘oh well’ or removing the item from game, not fixing engie at all.

Kardis: “Use grenades underwater, you’ll be happy” Its not that I can’t use grenades Kardis its that I shouldn’t HAVE to use grenades. I should have the choice. Saying one of our kits replaces the harpoon gun is pointless.. then why do we have the harpoon gun…

Well it’s like ever weapon, 2-5 are very useful, 1 sux. It really seems to be the concept of the engineer :o

Back to the topic I would say these changes would be great for Explosive shot
1) Up the bleed time to 4s
2) Allow Shrapnel and Explosive Powder affect Explosive shot
3) Combine Hair Trigger and Coated Bullets or Rifled barrel and Hair Trigger

Nothing OP, just enough to bring it up to par.

Just need number 1 and 3. Adding in 2 with them is over the top.

Xyonon.3987:

Still ses no efficiency in it. You have no combo fields, nor finisher, no might stack for others, no massheals for others, no high amount of vulnerability (toolbelt skill for vulnerability is ok but too weak compared to grenades n’ bombs). It looks bretty good for soloing but even if I could choose between lets say 7.5k DpS or 5k DpS with 15 stacks vulnerability … well you should be able to calculate what is more efficient for the group. The passive damage of this build is too low.

While I agree that the group utility of pure rifle builds is somehat low, applying vulnerability is not that bad. In PvE you can easily swap Rifled Barrels for Sitting Duck for single targets. For groups of mobs just use Jump Shot: if you hit 5 targets with both leap & land you get instant 25 stacks on all targets.
What these builds really lack is sustained (area) damage, which btw is what engies do best (but only with kits).