Guild Wars 2

I’ve been testing a particular roaming build that’s been getting more mileage than I can really explain, and I really want to run it by as many people as possible to make sure I’m not going crazy.

I’m using a roaming Condition build built around using as many leaps as possible while stacking Vitality and Condition damage. The rationale is that Power builds aren’t a threat when I have high mobility, so the only things I REALLY need are enough health to heal out of a Necro/PU condi bomb and enough mobility to kite everything else.

Current permutation:
Into The Mists build
(Giver’s Rifle, Shaman armor/trinkets+Carrion jewels)

This build puts me at a consistent ~30,000 HP depending on WvW buffs, with solid condition damage… however, as it abandons critical chance entirely, the Firearms line is non-viable (as the procs rely on crits; Explosives has only on-hit bonuses).

In terms of combat approach, the leaps are used strictly for positioning and blasting my heal options (Cleansing Burst, Regenerating Mist, Super Elixir). Application of conditions relies on Grenade 245T, Boots Burn, Rifle 3(Bleed), and EGun 3(Poison) before focusing on CC and positioning while auto-attacking with EGun, inside a Super Elixir field when possible.

My main questions are:
-On a conceptual level, does a leap+condition build have merit for WvW roaming? Before this I was using full Rabid with similar utilities and enemies absolutely melted— but, when I was bombed I melted nearly as fast…
-What armor setup should I use to stack Vitality as hard as possible? I know Celestial is an easy compromise, but I really want to push this build towards the defensive/bleed-out attrition side of things as much as possible. The closest stat combination I could find that had what I wanted was Shaman’s (Vitality main, Condition/Healing on the side).

On a tangent, the main stat combinations I planned on testing were:
-Full Rabid (a bit too squishy)
-Full Shaman+Carrion (great vs. pure condi, but power has become an issue)
-Full Dire (untested; will probably be a good compromise for my playstyle)
-Full Celestial (untested; will probably work better with Rifle/Grenade skills)
-Dire armor, Rabid trinkets (i.e. the meta)

That said, I really do think this build has potential since it has a propensity to absolutely eat up roaming thieves and engineers, and can cope with the threat of mesmers and necromancers when you chance upon them. I just need help polishing it, tossing out bad ideas, picking the right stats/traits/runes/sigils and so on.

Thank you kindly for reading and replying.

Akira.5746:

This build puts me at a consistent ~30,000 HP depending on WvW buffs, with solid condition damage… however, as it abandons critical chance entirely, the Firearms line is non-viable (as the procs rely on crits; Explosives has only on-hit bonuses).

All of your questions are pretty much summed up in this statement. Anything you choose outside of a hybrid setup is going to take you below that 26k health benchmark and put you into a play style that you may not be comfortable with. My suggestion here would be to keep an open mind to what the community may offer in regards to optimizing to your needs, or just condition builds put forth in general.

Akira.5746:

My main questions are:
-On a conceptual level, does a leap+condition build have merit for WvW roaming? Before this I was using full Rabid with similar utilities and enemies absolutely melted— but, when I was bombed I melted nearly as fast…

Again, you basically answered your own question. The further you specialize, the more proficient you are at said tactic, however over generalizing will cause your build to lose focus and thus purpose. Additionally, guerrilla tactics can be effective… assuming someone does not have as much or more mobility than your own; a rather looming issue for WvW.

-What armor setup should I use to stack Vitality as hard as possible? I know Celestial is an easy compromise, but I really want to push this build towards the defensive/bleed-out attrition side of things as much as possible. The closest stat combination I could find that had what I wanted was Shaman’s (Vitality main, Condition/Healing on the side).

You probably hate my saying this by now, but you really do provide the answers to your own problems =P. Part of your “melting” issue is due to the combination of gear choices that you provided. Sure you have lots of vitality and decent condition damage, but none of that matters if you are still made of paper. Vitality is usually a buffer against condition damage, while your toughness is obviously going to mitigate everything else. You must achieve a balance of both to perform this tight-wire act of hit and run. Overall, I think you should be focusing on a blend of Dire and Rabid to bring the most out of your build

On a tangent, I had a lot of trouble finding Shaman’s exotics to fill the jewel, accessory and back item slots. I used Carrion jewels and Dire accessory/back as a temporary measure in my live equipment… additionally, I’m a little broke, so getting full Ascended Cele or Dire to test against Shaman’s is out of reach for me…

Experiment some more with exotics before expanding to ascended. If you are having complications at this stage, the minimal stat boost will not help. The reason a majority of people avoid these gear choices is not because of some hidden potential that has not been found, but rather there are fundamental flaws with them that are not suitable with the current way the game is being played.

Akira.5746:

That said, I really do think this build has potential since it has a propensity to absolutely eat up roaming thieves and engineers, and can cope with the threat of mesmers and necromancers when you chance upon them. I just need help polishing it, tossing out bad ideas, picking the right stats/traits/runes/sigils and so on.

I will say this about the rune choices, Damage>Duration. There is little point in adding stats to duration manually when the biggest sources from Engineer are buffed passively, not to mention a cleansed condition with double duration will do less than one with 1.5 duration and 30% more dot. You mentioned Firearms was ineffective for you current build, but that could change if you fancy some of the other options provided.

Potential Build Ideas:
Rifle- Tools/Firearms/Alchemy Ever see what 5k+ burn ticks does to people?
P/P- Tools/Firearms/Alchemy Melt your face off.

Leap + healing plus big vitality build is a nice idea, but I’m not sure how well it will work.

For one thing, the healing power doesn’t make a huge contribution, you are getting an extra 1k from overcharged turret, and only an extra 100 or so from blast or 250 from leaps.

• Versus conditions, that could be handled with better cleansing, condition duration reduction food or runes
• Versus regular damage, that could be handled via more toughness and more blocks/evades
• Your only damage comes from conditions, but condition damage is only a minor stat on most of your items.

Ultimately, you would probably find Dire or Dire + Rabid a better option.

If you are set on the Krait runes, perhaps consider using mortar since you can trigger procs more often (and on demand). You would also gain some extra poison for winning the endurance fights, plus chill+blind for facing power melee builds.

Alternatively, you might consider Anti-toxin runes, or Defender runes (but swapping in a toolkit for the block and heal procs).

Also, that Torment Sigil probaby doesn’t activate as frequently as it could due to low crit chance – I would consider either something defensive (like Energy), or perhaps another damage sigil like Corruption. Getting that condition damage stat over 1.5k is where it really stats to shine.

In case you’re interested, my personal condi build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqalcThSuY7WwALQ7FLsF1YbMGfB4HWiBgYHVFPBA-TlyCABOoEEgHAwJ7PAoOgX0CYgJOsUe4p6PUcCAOSJWAAEgZGAc0je0je0j2RP6MDpAWUaE-w

• Packed full of condi cleanse and healing
• Lots of might stacking via HGH, along with corruption and guard stacks can break 3k condition damage.
• Excellent condition variety – can still put out plenty of high damage burning, but can also do good amounts via confusion, poison and bleeding to make enemy cleansing more difficult
• Defend via block, dodge, blind, chill, cripple, immob
• Options : if engaging non-condition opponents, swap Elixir C for Flamethrower & swap Incidiary Powder for Juggernaught.
  * Gains you plenty of burning, plus an extra blind, knockback and blast
  * Can also swap Streamlined Kits for Lock-On when facing stealth
  * Sometimes use incoming condi-duration reduction food instead

Edit: whoops, I guess Mnemesis’s P/P build is essentially the same (minor gear and utility differences).

Good to see two big responses to sink my teeth into after work. Gives me a lot to sleep on.

I really am sold on the basic weapon/utility setup: Rifle, Elixir Gun and Rocket Boots, with everything else willing to bend. The ability to reset is just so valuable when Engineer otherwise would have to sacrifice far too much to be truly resistant to conditions. The alternative mindset is what seems to be most popular: instead of abating condi, just fight condi with bigger condi and seeing who dies first… I’m not a big fan of being locked into a fight, nor am I one for dying quickly, so it’s a relief that my current build solves both of my personal problems.

Regarding the points made:

@Mnemesis:
-I’ll definitely keep my mind open. I knew going in that Shaman’s was way off the meta and likely not optimal; I just wanted to see why first-hand.
-Over-generalizing is why I was/am cautious of Celestial. I know Grenades especially benefit from pretty much everything Cele provides, but it lacks a clear winner between Rifle vs. Elixir Gun in terms of when to use which and IMO really needs Might support these days.
-Over-specializing is the big flaw with Shaman’s, though. It’s great at running away from condition specs, but thieves are more of a threat than they realistically should be. As you said, I suspect it’ll come down to balancing how much Rabid I want on an otherwise Dire-centric stat spread.
-Damage > Duration is something I really want to solve, since 20 second bleeds without much damage behind it are pointless after a certain point. This build’s lack of Firearms, the lack of Might and general confusion on runes/stats/sigils are what I’d like to address most.

Finally, in terms of the biggest takeaway, this line definitely resonated with me most:
“The reason a majority of people avoid these gear choices is not because of some hidden potential that has not been found, but rather there are fundamental flaws with them that are not suitable with the current way the game is being played.”

@Tor:
-I’m not tied down to Krait runes— I was considering Nightmare or Aristocracy as well, but Krait was the cheap option and an obvious “okay” choice with Elixir Gun 1 playing towards bleeds. I know less about runes than I do sigils or armor.
-Sigil of Torment was a leftover from my Full Rabid build. Despite the low crit it did activate often enough to perform its function as anti-cleanse filler, but only barely, and only due to the Giver’s Rifle’s precision.
-some of my responses to Mnemesis also apply, particularly regarding Dire armor.

In general,
I am cognizant of the various ways we can apply conditions, and I know I sacrificed a lot of good ones in my OP’s build— Pistol/Pistol, Tool Kit, Incendiary Ammo/Powder (both belt and trait), Elixir S to secure an opener, et al. Even now it feels a little daft that I’m suggesting this to be a good condi build when I’m skipping over Engineer’s biggest sources of condi.

However, in terms of the basic leap-heavy concept, that really was a necessary choice; the moment I started cutting away at leaps, the build’s propensity to disengage died immediately. One leap, even two leaps, just isn’t enough to escape. Toss Elixir S + two leaps, or three leaps in a row, seems to be the sweet spot vs. everything— with only thieves being able to keep up, which is fine since they are an easy match-up.

I’d really like to find a way to squeeze Firearms back into the build since that line was a huge source of outgoing damage, but that means balancing Dire vs. Rabid just well enough to justify it. Additionally, it’s a woeful choice since Alchemy and Tools (read: HGH and Mechanized Deployment) synergize so well together— lowering elixir tool belt cooldowns by a good 35% or so. The only line that’s easy to eliminate from consideration is Inventions.

I’ll keep looking for a way to bend the stats, runes, sigils, third utility and elite skill such that the basic run-away concept works better than it already does (which is to say: it works now but lacks the obvious zap of a meta build). If armor/rune/sigil swaps don’t do it, then it’ll likely be abandoning Explosives+Grenades (as suggested) and seeing if I can output good condition bombs some other way (FT w/ Might stacking? who knows).

Thanks again.

Since they call S/WH/GS warriors ‘Nike Warriors’, we’re going to have to call this build ‘Jackrabbit Engi’

Well, one suggestion to make this work – but not a cheap one – is to try Dire + Perplexity. It carries a lot of condition damage by itself, and you have the overcharged shot + supply crate interrupts.

As I mentioned previously, Corruption Sigil is going to be good for adding to the condi burst if you can get the stacks up. Taking a couple of camps & killing creature herds while roaming will usually get your stacks up to 10-20 before you see another player.

Skill-wise, it might be worth trying Elixir H in place of turret. You’ll lose the water field, but will pick up some decent boons plus might from HGH.

Regarding your disengages – you may want to practise throwing grenades backwards over your head, if you aren’t already. A well timed chill grenade can make getting away that much easier.

Perplexity seems like a viable consideration since it gives the Rifle version access to Confusion, but yes— it’s way out of my budget currently. I’ve added Corruption Sigil to the build as well.

I tested condi FT over Nades but it only left me torn. For Engineer, I never felt like my Burns were a threat unless I buried them behind lots of trash condis: Bleeding, Vulnerability, Cripple, Torment being the spammable front-runners, with Poison and Confusion on the side. There’s no real way to get that whole package without running P/P+Nades w/ Explosives and Firearms, which pigeonholes my options.

On the other hand, power FT Rifle is an amazing combination with high synergy, one that I’ve already tested and proven in SPvP. The short of it is that the more I play condi, the more I feel like it’s the wrong way to go about a leap build.

On a fundamental level, I know I want some combination of the following in my build:
→ strong condition pressure OR strong power burst w/ rolling Might
→ stun breaks
→ meaningful condition cleanse (read: more than HT+Super Elixir)
→ the capacity to disengage (at least two leaps OR one good leap+Toss S)
→ CC and a tanky stat spread a plus

→For condi, P/P+Nades feels right, while power would be best done as FT Rifle w/ Strength runes and a Strength sigil.
→Elixir S and Elixir Gun are the two stun breaks that come to mind for utility options.
→Condition cleanse, however, is just awful unless you pack an Elixir C. Even Alchemy -HT+EGun struggles the moment a Necromancer, Mesmer or Engineer shows up-- classes I’d like to beat or go 50/50 against.
→That’s a problem, since it’s hard to fit C into your kit if you ALSO want to bring multiple disengages: Rifle 5, EGun 4, Rocket Boots, and Toss S.

In terms of ways to check off every box, the most obvious answer to me is there, but it’s not condition damage: it’s power FT Rifle. FT Rifle is 100% all the damage you need, leaving you with two extra utility slots to use however you want. Additionally, that setup ALREADY packs a leap and a “stun break”— via Juggernaut’s rolling stability. Running power FT Rifle w/ Firearms/Alchemy/Tools solves so many problems on its own, leaving only condition cleanse on the table as something to-be-addressed. Sneaking in Elixir C and Elixir Gun/Rocket Boots/Elixir S on the side are all viable options that ALL give me two leaps or one leap+stealth, with S giving me a way to secure stomps.

Beyond that,
I’ve been having doubts about whether or not I really want to abandon Shaman, although I’m fairly sure that stat distribution makes me good at nothing but flipping camps and being a nuisance. In terms of being able to reset, Full Dire isn’t able to heal as quickly— but it is able to actually kill people in less than 20 seconds. Shaman was NOT good, but kitten it was FUN. It was really my most fun experience as condi, to just be an nigh-unkillable cancer.

I’ll keep playing around with my options, but the more I play the more I feel that either I switch to Power FT to make harassment work or I commit to a condition build that can’t disengage on the same level as old P/D condi thief could. Thanks again.

To save some space, I edited my previous post to better communicate my current thought process with this build concept. I really need to save up and find a way to mimic Marauder stats in WvW while saving up the money for 1) 6/6 Strength runes + a Strength sigil on a new Rifle before I try my hand again at leaping about at breakneck speeds.

I don’t think a condition leap build is viable. By stacking leaps as condi, you end up being forced to sacrifice 1) cover conditions, 2) viable condition cleanse, 3) proper protection from stuns or 4) the ability to cleave to make it work. The best I can come up with is P/P Nades w/ Rocket Boots and S (one leap+stealth), and crutching on Mortar Kit + Light fields to cleanse when a Necromancer bombs you. To push it more defensive, you can drop Boots for Elixir Gun to get another Light field, and to push it more offensive you would drop Mortar for Drop or Moa.

I DO think a power-based leap build would be viable, if not competitive with block-heavy meta builds. Rifle Juggernaut would have 25 stacks of rolling Might, one stack of rolling Stability + an additional passive stun break, highly effective condition cleanse and access to multiple leaps (all three if desired, more likely just Rifle and Elixir Gun). The elite is completely up to preference.

My best guess as to each build:
Rabid Explosives/Firearms/Tools: P/P Nades w/ Boots+S, offensive compromise
Marauder Firearms/Alchemy/Tools: Rifle FT w/ C+S
*I am aware that there is no true Marauder armor set for WvW; I’m not familiar enough with gearing to say how you’d pull it off, but compromise as best you can with what’s available to get that stat spread.

Maybe some epiphany will come to me between now and the time I’m geared for Power FT… conditions are what Engineer really does so well. I’d hate to shelf the idea.

Thanks much for anyone that’s read this far. It’s been a novel pursuit.