Guild Wars 2

But it still wouldn’t solve the problem of the lack of active gameplay.
And nothing short of a redesign of the overcharge or the whole turret concept will solve that. Especially if it will still require for our toolbelts to be replaced by detonation commands (thus locking us out from the proper, real toolbelts).
Cause as it stands now, with a single weapon, no proper toolbelts and just some overcharge every now and then, there is no way to have an active gameplay.

Manuhell.2759:

But it still wouldn’t solve the problem of the lack of active gameplay.
And nothing short of a redesign of the overcharge or the whole turret concept will solve that. Especially if it will still require for our toolbelts to be replaced by detonation commands (thus locking us out from the proper, real toolbelts).
Cause as it stands now, with a single weapon, no proper toolbelts and just some overcharge every now and then, there is no way to have an active gameplay.

haha…now that the well deserved nerf is inc….all of a sudden it needs complete rework…and the toolbelts arent working as intended etc etc etc…lmao…just l2p for real man…engi has plenty of other specs and can compete to the fullest in any form of pvp…just not being carried hardcore by turrets anymore…and even after the nerf you can still play turret engi…just need to be better at it…..omg…these excuses people make, its hilarious….yea, engi cant compete anymore now right? sure sure… turret engi is broken OP and other specs are just fine for engi…more than fine even

The only one making excuses here is you.
Multiple people already made proposals to change them in the past, and me as well.
Get some tea and feel free to search on these forums for yourself if you wish to, instead of spouting false accusations.

Also, it will be unfeasible to use turrets after the nerf, and that can be explained by some simple math (and other people already did that in the thread in the pvp section).
It isn’t a matter of being better – they will just die too quickly, and even if the engineer picked them up, there is just no reason to use something with such a low uptime.

If anything, at least i’m making some arguments. People fueled by engi/turret hate don’t even do that, they’re just gloating in their “revenge”.

yea…2+ players needing to focus the turrets in order to get rid of them was realy fair deal….while engi itself can dish out plenty of dmge as well…not to mention the tons of immobs/launches/knockbacks….people need to roll like 30 stacks of stab in order to have a normal fight against an engi…not to mention the cc/fears etc the engi team mates has…or boon stripping…nah buddy…plenty of arguements made by my side…you just get the back up from all mad engi players that knew they had it coming…it was either this nerf…or tremendous damage output nerf of engi….either way you would cry anyway….again engi still has plenty of viable tpvp builds and will still play a role nonetheless….see it like this, war isnt viable on gs either in tpvp…now turrets arent for engi…fair deal….pve you say…..well propose a difference between pve and pvp skill descriptions….like gw1 had

Speaking as someone who’s used Turrets from Day 1, and used to curate a fairly extensive buglist regarding them: they’ve needed a complete rework for years.

I didn’t do PvP, because it didn’t interest me, but for everything else, they suck, and they always have sucked. Now they’re not even good for the niche uses they’d found, aside from reflect-doming. Until they’re used as primers for Epidemic, maybe. Then they’ll just be ‘do not be near that’ objects.

They’re being unilaterally nerfed, with the most obvious compensations being explicitly ditched – they can have conditions inflicted, but they can’t benefit from boons. They can be crit, but they can’t inflict crits. They don’t scale to stats that aren’t derived from traits, they don’t move, they don’t fit the mobility theme of the gameplay.

Why not rework them? Obviously they’re not a particularly good skill-set to begin with, given how many things are stacked against them, how many basic rules of the game they simply do not involve themselves in. The only place they shine is Beginner PvP, and that’ll still be a thing, because these changes don’t do anything about the damage output of the turrets, just the input. People will still try to ignore the turrets and end up getting melted while they try to fight the Engineer. Learn-to-play, indeed.

Suggesting a difference between PvE and PvP skill descriptions is actually not a particularly effective idea, either. Anet has specifically decided to try not to do those, after all, and even if there’s a difference between the PvE and PvP variations of turrets, turrets will still suck in PvE, while continuing to do exactly what they’ve been doing in beginner PvP, where they’re actually a problem.

Darksteel.8412:

yea…2+ players needing to focus the turrets in order to get rid of them was realy fair deal….while engi itself can dish out plenty of dmge as well…not to mention the tons of immobs/launches/knockbacks….people need to roll like 30 stacks of stab in order to have a normal fight against an engi…not to mention the cc/fears etc the engi team mates has…or boon stripping…nah buddy…plenty of arguements made by my side…you just get the back up from all mad engi players that knew they had it coming…it was either this nerf…or tremendous damage output nerf of engi….either way you would cry anyway….again engi still has plenty of viable tpvp builds and will still play a role nonetheless….see it like this, war isnt viable on gs either in tpvp…now turrets arent for engi…fair deal….pve you say…..well propose a difference between pve and pvp skill descriptions….like gw1 had

Don’t be dishonest here. For most of those two years, those same turrets you needed to focus, didn’t do near the damage, have near as many valuable traits, or function anywhere near as well as the did just the last few months, so please, do not disingenuously imply they have been a problem for that long.

they cant crit?….uhm rocket turret may not be able to crit…for a reason…3+k damage as an npc ally wich takes forever to destroy is crazy…needs loads of focus to get rid of the turrets from than one player while the engie launches you and you get knockbacked by…you guessed it…another turret…thumper i believe… ranked arenas was packed with guild groups that stacked engies in a team…and had a win chance of…idk….90+%?…..l2p issue right…..yea indeed for the engi, get over it…not everyone is noob who says turret engie needed a nerf…and you all know it was needed…pve you say?….ask anet for pve and pvp descriptions on skills like gw1…i see engies playing other specs that are very viable…try them

No, they can’t crit. And they’re about to be made able to be crit, while not allowing them to crit, even if that would include nerfing the base stats – which I would actually support, as long as it came with the addition of non-trait scaling, because that’s another large part of the problem; with the current Turret design, the Turret-user can build entirely for tanking and still deal a considerable amount of damage because of the lack of scaling. Yes, scaling and implementing turret-crits would likely increase their damage…for certain builds. These builds would also have Turrets made of glass.

And no, learn to play for the person fighting the Engineer. There’s a nest of turrets on Point A? Don’t contest Point A alone. Funny story, that Engineer is pretty much chained to the point, and terrified of their cooldowns, because if their Turrets go down, they have nothing but their toolbelt and their purposefully anemic mainhand weapon. Similarly, if they step outside the range of the turrets (by being drawn, or knocked back, anything), they have nothing. If they’re full Turret, the only stunbreak/stability they have, barring traits, relies on the Thumper turret not being on the field. Rocket and Thumper both have long cooldowns – 50 seconds each.

If you can’t figure out how to handle Turrets, and Turret-users, obviously the Engineer has chosen their build well, and if the build works, then why do they need to learn to play? It seems like they’ve pretty well got that in the bag. Predict their skills. Know what the turrets do, learn the windows when they won’t use things. The same thing you do against everything else.

Also, did you stop reading when I said ‘It is a learn to play issue?’ I specifically explain why asking for different ‘descriptions’ isn’t something that would work. You’re just too busy making excuses for why you shouldn’t have to learn to play against a set of immobile objects, and claiming that the only reason people are saying that there should be a rework is because they’re being nerfed.

(As a side-note, I used Turrets because I liked them, not any question of viability. PvE is easy enough, for the most part, for a full turret build to work…with some difficulty.)

yea you like that dont you…needing 2+ players to get rid of a turret engie….nice and easy, l2p for the non turret player right…dont attack the turret engie when you’re alone…and the turret engie is still being able to get help while alrdy 2+ is required to get rid of the engi is alone….when it gets help…the whole opposing team needs to go there…so the rest is unprotected….exactly that is where the problem is with the engi….its broken OP and it needs the nerf thats inc…enjoy, no longer replying…..engie on turret spec atm….= broken overpowered….this is exactly what is needed. by this, i mean the nerf…..lmfao…dont contest the point when an engie is there….so a team of 2+ engies….dont contest anything…get over yourself…bollox you talk alot m8, you just exposed yourself…funny thing is, even tho you can reread your own post a million times…you won’t even see it. you did expose yourself tho…dont contest a turret when youre alone lololol… yea you loved that didnt you…nice and easy grind. next

Darksteel.8412:

they cant crit?….uhm rocket turret may not be able to crit…for a reason…3+k damage as an npc ally wich takes forever to destroy is crazy…needs loads of focus to get rid of the turrets from than one player while the engie launches you and you get knockbacked by…you guessed it…another turret…thumper i believe… ranked arenas was packed with guild groups that stacked engies in a team…and had a win chance of…idk….90+%?…..l2p issue right…..yea indeed for the engi, get over it…not everyone is noob who says turret engie needed a nerf…and you all know it was needed…pve you say?….ask anet for pve and pvp descriptions on skills like gw1…i see engies playing other specs that are very viable…try them

Personally I’ve never used turrets once in PVP, I prefer more active roles in PVP, not a fan of AI vs AI.

I just used them ina few select situations in PVE, like archdiviner in fractals, it was very nice in squishier groups, prevents him from jumping all over the place and laying the hammer down. But he does condi fields which will now destroy the turret most likely, that’s no fun to lose one of the rare situations turrets actually come in handy.

Darksteel.8412:

yea you like that dont you…needing 2+ players to get rid of a turret engie….nice and easy, l2p for the non turret player right…dont attack the turret engie when you’re alone…and the turret engie is still being able to get help while alrdy 2+ is required to get rid of the engi is alone….when it gets help…the whole opposing team needs to go there…so the rest is unprotected….exactly that is where the problem is with the engi….its broken OP and it needs the nerf thats inc…enjoy, no longer replying…..engie on turret spec atm….= broken overpowered….this is exactly what is needed. by this, i mean the nerf…..lmfao…dont contest the point when an engie is there….so a team of 2+ engies….dont contest anything…get over yourself…bollox you talk alot m8, you just exposed yourself…funny thing is, even tho you can reread your own post a million times…you won’t even see it. you did expose yourself tho…dont contest a turret when youre alone lololol… yea you loved that didnt you…nice and easy grind. next

You also need 2+ people to get rid of a single bunker guardian…
Unless you bring a trapper ranger or a condi engi… Oh wait, the same builds instantly melt away the turreteer, too, but were driven out of the meta by shoutbows… What a shame.

Let me get this straight. If you sit on point as a turret engineer and see a trapper ranger walking onto your cap circle, you are dead.
You can’t overcharged shot him, because that would put your only way to break entangle on cooldown, your thumper will knock him out once and then he will start loading conditions on you, which melt you away within 10-15 seconds.

naphack.9346:

Darksteel.8412:

yea you like that dont you…needing 2+ players to get rid of a turret engie….nice and easy, l2p for the non turret player right…dont attack the turret engie when you’re alone…and the turret engie is still being able to get help while alrdy 2+ is required to get rid of the engi is alone….when it gets help…the whole opposing team needs to go there…so the rest is unprotected….exactly that is where the problem is with the engi….its broken OP and it needs the nerf thats inc…enjoy, no longer replying…..engie on turret spec atm….= broken overpowered….this is exactly what is needed. by this, i mean the nerf…..lmfao…dont contest the point when an engie is there….so a team of 2+ engies….dont contest anything…get over yourself…bollox you talk alot m8, you just exposed yourself…funny thing is, even tho you can reread your own post a million times…you won’t even see it. you did expose yourself tho…dont contest a turret when youre alone lololol… yea you loved that didnt you…nice and easy grind. next

You also need 2+ people to get rid of a single bunker guardian…
Unless you bring a trapper ranger or a condi engi… Oh wait, the same builds instantly melt away the turreteer, too, but were driven out of the meta by shoutbows… What a shame.

Let me get this straight. If you sit on point as a turret engineer and see a trapper ranger walking onto your cap circle, you are dead.
You can’t overcharged shot him, because that would put your only way to break entangle on cooldown, your thumper will knock him out once and then he will start loading conditions on you, which melt you away within 10-15 seconds.

^ This. It’s a bunker build, the entire point was to be hard to kill. Imo the main problem with it was that because turrets don’t scale on stats, they have pretty good damage due to rocket turret despite the engi himself hitting like a wet noodle. That, and as Naphack said, the obvious Engi counters have largely been dropped from the meta which makes them all the more difficult to kill.

Something needed to be done about it, sure. Making turrets scale their damage off your stats would have been the best way to do it imo, this seems like overkill. I’m not even a turret engi, I just like seeing more than 2 viable builds on a class.

naphack.9346:

Darksteel.8412:

yea you like that dont you…needing 2+ players to get rid of a turret engie….nice and easy, l2p for the non turret player right…dont attack the turret engie when you’re alone…and the turret engie is still being able to get help while alrdy 2+ is required to get rid of the engi is alone….when it gets help…the whole opposing team needs to go there…so the rest is unprotected….exactly that is where the problem is with the engi….its broken OP and it needs the nerf thats inc…enjoy, no longer replying…..engie on turret spec atm….= broken overpowered….this is exactly what is needed. by this, i mean the nerf…..lmfao…dont contest the point when an engie is there….so a team of 2+ engies….dont contest anything…get over yourself…bollox you talk alot m8, you just exposed yourself…funny thing is, even tho you can reread your own post a million times…you won’t even see it. you did expose yourself tho…dont contest a turret when youre alone lololol… yea you loved that didnt you…nice and easy grind. next

You also need 2+ people to get rid of a single bunker guardian…
Unless you bring a trapper ranger or a condi engi… Oh wait, the same builds instantly melt away the turreteer, too, but were driven out of the meta by shoutbows… What a shame.

Let me get this straight. If you sit on point as a turret engineer and see a trapper ranger walking onto your cap circle, you are dead.
You can’t overcharged shot him, because that would put your only way to break entangle on cooldown, your thumper will knock him out once and then he will start loading conditions on you, which melt you away within 10-15 seconds.

bunker guard dps is almost non existent….turret engi dps is capable of taking down cele amulet players…huge difference

And somehow, it still makes sense to you that the nerf they pick is ‘turrets take more damage,’ when the non-stat-reliant DPS is the problem?

“Bunker guard DPS is almost nonexistent. Turret engi dps is capable of taking down cele amulet players.” How exactly was that supposed to be comprehended, aside from ‘their DPS is a problem?’

Also, I don’t care what you’re rolling. I never have. This isn’t about that.

Finally, let them feel the power of guardians spirit weapons

Darksteel.8412:

Anymras.5729:

And somehow, it still makes sense to you that the nerf they pick is ‘turrets take more damage,’ when the non-stat-reliant DPS is the problem?

you adress me to take more damage, remember your own words…before talking dumb…all I did was answer to your very own statement…the fact that you reply like you did with your last comment shows…kittenis Inflictus? enjoy your day buddy XD

Okay, I have no idea what you’re saying. I’m not mocking you, at least not for your English. I’m going to guess it’s not your first language, so there’s obviously going to be some things lost in translation. Maybe you’ll explain.

“You address me to take more damage, remember your own words before talking dumb.” What? Like, I get what the second part, after the comma, says…it’s the first that’s confusing. I’m not sure what ‘you address me to’ means, aside from post, which is one of the ‘Did this get mistranslated or something?’ moments.

I’m not telling you to take more damage, if that’s what you’re saying. I’m saying it makes no sense that they would increase the damage taken by Turrets, as opposed to reducing the damage dealt, or making the damage dealt actually rely on a stat.

My last post to you was actually exactly what you said, that I was responding to in the quote right there, except formatted to match how I read it, with a question regarding how exactly it was supposed to be read if not the way it was. You still didn’t bother to explain, so I’m really just leaning toward ‘you have no idea what you’re talking about, and are just yammering endlessly.’

I realy don’t get it why people have a hard time with turrets? Turrets are the “pets” with the least amount of health and they have 0 armour unless you trait for Metal Plating. But still a power build shouldn’t requiere more than 3-4 hits to destroy a Net, Rifle or Rocket Turret. When that’s done, the Engineer is left with awefull toolbelt abilities and a wet noodle DpS.

In PvE don’t even speak about turrets… They are pretty much useless beside for a couple of niche uses. I have played an Engineer turret since I started this game and they have been broken more than half of a year. And when they finaly fixed them they took backward positions that didn’t made any sense at all.

“Hey lets allow Turrets to scale with condition damage”!
2 months later…
“Hey lets remove the Bleed from Rifle Turret overcharge and the Burning from Rocket Turret. Because hey, that makes sense and Engineers clearly need more vulnerability stacking!”

Now we get into the same backward position.
“Hey lets make turrets vulnerable to crits and condition to stop all the whining going around the forum”
“Yes Sir, should we also compensate the nerf by allowing Turrets to scale with stats, boons and crits?”
“Wut?”

You would think the guys in charge of balancing the game would become more experienced over time. But they are still taking the worst kind of actions and don’t know a dime about their game…

It’s this type of semi-nerf that makes me wonder whether Arenanet consider the Engi to be OP or whether it’s such a difficult class to play that only the best players play it.

Ambrecombe.4398:

I realy don’t get it why people have a hard time with turrets? Turrets are the “pets” with the least amount of health and they have 0 armour unless you trait for Metal Plating. But still a power build shouldn’t requiere more than 3-4 hits to destroy a Net, Rifle or Rocket Turret. When that’s done, the Engineer is left with awefull toolbelt abilities and a wet noodle DpS.

In PvE don’t even speak about turrets… They are pretty much useless beside for a couple of niche uses. I have played an Engineer turret since I started this game and they have been broken more than half of a year. And when they finaly fixed them they took backward positions that didn’t made any sense at all.

“Hey lets allow Turrets to scale with condition damage”!
2 months later…
“Hey lets remove the Bleed from Rifle Turret overcharge and the Burning from Rocket Turret. Because hey, that makes sense and Engineers clearly need more vulnerability stacking!”

Now we get into the same backward position.
“Hey lets make turrets vulnerable to crits and condition to stop all the whining going around the forum”
“Yes Sir, should we also compensate the nerf by allowing Turrets to scale with stats, boons and crits?”
“Wut?”

You would think the guys in charge of balancing the game would become more experienced over time. But they are still taking the worst kind of actions and don’t know a dime about their game…

Nobody plays power builds these days. They have all been flushed out by so-called “meta-builds”, which depend on multiple factors to be more efficient than dedicated specialist builds:
1) They require the user to have perfect control of his class and every tiny detail about it. Any build benefits from the user knowing his class… But most fine tuned meta builds try to squeeze every bit of potential out of the class and are often times worse than more straightforward, simple specialist builds, if not used properly.
2) They require the opponent to be equally skilled and run equally fine-tuned meta builds. This doesn’t mean, they are useless, when the opponent doesn’t run a meta build. It just means, often times just a glass canon build would provide quicker results.
3) They require the user to know the ins and outs of the opponent’s build.
4) They require the team to cooperate and coordinate in an organized manner.
5) They require the user to be able to analyze the opponent’s team composition and make adjustments on the fly.

These builds may be strong at high level play, but many players just take a carbon copy of them into their own lower level games without even understanding the reasons for some design choices. Even worse, while the people, who designed the build, also know, how to adjust it for other circumstances, the people who copied it just assume, the build is perfect.
Now, this is, where turrets come into play. To counter turrets, you need either high physical output or high condition output. Simple as that. Both these builds eat turret users alive. However, what doesn’t work is a build with a bit of physical output, a bit of condition output, a bit sustain, a bit heal and a bit utility. You jump in, guns blazing, pressing 20 keys in rapid succession and the turret engi just nails you down with 5 key strokes and goes to grab a sandwich. The balls to the walls, run over the enemy with superior pressure and let your sustain take care of the rest approach doesn’t work.

Now what of these builds, which can take down turrets in 3-4 hits? They don’t have a problem defeating turrets. Not at all. However, they DO have a problem taking on the meta builds. Shoutbows drove necromancers, necros and condition engis out of favor, mesmers are haunted by thieves and staff eles are a rare breed, which get rushed by meditation guardians and crumble.
There’s too many shoutbows, meditation guardians, cele dd eles, cele rifle engis and thieves around for any builds, which could potentially take down turrets to have any effect on the outcome of the game other than being able to take out the turrets.
However, I still don’t buy the whole “remove turrets and everything will be fine” mantra. Yes, turreteers are too strong, but their large success has only been made possible by a stale meta, where more than half the possible builds and three out of eight classes are invalidated by a single concept.

Honestly, if you were running any kind of a bunk turret build for roaming WvW. You were sort of a laughing stock of the roamer/dueling community. Not that turret build were particular OP, but just very passive offensive/defensive gameplay.

If it does it should only open up to a few conditions like burning and work from there to not completely kill turrets while keeping some logic in this game. I will be terrified the day my turrets start bleeding and feel fear, what are we necromancers?

The staff have said that Turrets will be immune to CC, including Fear, but other conditions will work as normal. Turrets will also be able to be cleansed, but not healed via means not currently available.

Also, Turrets are not currently going to be able to benefit from Boons, but that ‘might change.’ It’s not like they’ll be extinct or anything.