Guild Wars 2

lets forget all the bugs and issues with kits and traits for a moment =D
lets discuss something: engineer downed state abilites…

in my opinion they need a rework.

throw junk: a random condition, again something random destroying the fun just like the toss elixir abilities. random abilities have no place in a game where a big part is pvp. now look at ranger with nonrandom FIVE SECOND bleed additionally to his pet that still attacks you.

Grappling line: I am dying, why should I grab the enemy to me? I should be able to use it gain distance instead but I guess its better to use it do get killed faster

What? We have 2 interrupts. Kinda OP. Plus, in PvE, grapple line + booby trap can equal an easy rally.

BeardRex.6739:

What? We have 2 interrupts. Kinda OP. Plus, in PvE, grapple line + booby trap can equal an easy rally.

rally with what? the nonexistent damage?

Id rather see other down states be nerfed to equal ours. But your right, Engi down is rather weak.

PokeyPenguin.6178:

Id rather see other down states be nerfed to equal ours. But your right, Engi down is rather week.

this could be done too.

They need to swap skill 2 and 3.

Then I’d see it being fixed.

PvE > PvP. Things shouldn’t just be changed for 1 of them, they should be worthwhile for both.

CptCosmic.3156:

BeardRex.6739:

What? We have 2 interrupts. Kinda OP. Plus, in PvE, grapple line + booby trap can equal an easy rally.

rally with what? the nonexistent damage?

I rally all the time with the grapple line and booby trap. However I do understand what you are getting at with the main skill feeling kinda weak. since I have not really played any other class I cannot be sure :/

We have one interrupt. The second interrupt (explosion) is usually useless because it takes 20 seconds to be ready.

Someone presses F on you. You wait a bit, and use pull to interrupt. Then they press F on you again. You’ve still got at least 10 seconds before the explosion is ready. GG.

I wish our 1 was as strong as the mesmers one, jeebus this condition stacking skill is good, I’d love it as an actual weapon skill.

At least make the random condition one of the damaging ones.

Id rather summon a giant robot transformer army that comes down and protects, defends, and gets me back up.

I think they are fine and maybe the most balanced downed skills in the game. Don’t like random conditions but hey, it’s simply a downed state autoattack I don’t mind too much. Grappling line is great. Single target ranged interrupt that has some tactical uses ( such as pulling to yourself that pesky low hp thief that downed you towards your friends, or comboing people/mobs with 3° skill ) ? Heck yeah.

PotatoOverdose.6583:

We have one interrupt. The second interrupt (explosion) is usually useless because it takes 20 seconds to be ready.

Someone presses F on you. You wait a bit, and use pull to interrupt. Then they press F on you again. You’ve still got at least 10 seconds before the explosion is ready. GG.

I’m sorry, but that’s how every downed state works beside elementalists’ one. You can use your 2° skill to do something useful, but if someone tries to stomp you twice under 6 seconds your 3rd skill won’t be ready. Do you think interrupting twice someone stomping you in a short frame of time would be balanced? At least you get to interrupt someone, unlike elementalists that can’t even interrupt twice or necros that have an horrible 3rd skill.

Wolfheart.1938:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

We have one interrupt. The second interrupt (explosion) is usually useless because it takes 20 seconds to be ready.

Someone presses F on you. You wait a bit, and use pull to interrupt. Then they press F on you again. You’ve still got at least 10 seconds before the explosion is ready. GG.

I’m sorry, but that’s how every downed state works beside elementalists’ one. You can use your 2° skill to do something useful, but if someone tries to stomp you twice under 6 seconds your 3rd skill won’t be ready. Do you think interrupting twice someone stomping you in a short frame of time would be balanced? At least you get to interrupt someone, unlike elementalists that can’t even interrupt twice or necros that have an horrible 3rd skill.

Mesmers, thieves, and guardians have better downed skills than engineers. Truth be told, I was replying to the statement that having 2 interrupts makes us OP moreso than complaining about our downed state.

Ive had the occasional hilarious moment in WvW where someone on a wall has downed me and Ive used the pull to rip him down into the horde, but that is it.

I’m gonna bump this and i have to disagree with the people who insist this is the same way other classes work. And I can prove to you why.

Let’s compare number by number:

Skill 1: The direct attack
In all cases the direct attack is quite weak – but the engineer’s attack, “throw junk” causes a random condition, it’s entirely possible to spam this the entire duration you’re down and not cause a single hitpoint of damage – how can you rally if you cannot kill anyojne. i have had an enemy on 1% health, and i just kept landing chill/cripple/blind on him for the 20 seconds it took to bleed out.

Skill 2: The defensive skill
Mesmers turn invisible and teleport out of harms way leaving a decoy, Guardians can knock back all adjacent enemies, thieves I believe turn invisible. Engineer’s pull the enemy into melee with them – wait, i thought this was a defensive skill?, how is pulling an enemy into melee range meant to protect us, it’s only purpose seems to be to set up #3, or provide a single target, one shot interuppt. No skill should exist purely to set up another skill, especialy when that skill is…

Skill 3: The heavy hitter
The 3rd skill is very unique to the class. Mesmers summon a phantasm, guardians create a symbol of healing which can keep them alive or even revive them very quickly. Engineer’s heavy hitter is basiclly a duplicate of guardian’s #2 skill… yeah. our “best hope” is actually the same as another classes #2 downed skill. What the hell? – furthermore, if my observations are right, setting off your bomb belt actually damages you (unsurprisingly)

tl;dr.

Engineer’s skill bar consists of:

1. Slightly inconvenience enemies
2. Moderately inconvenience enemies, and die faster
3. Strongly inconvenience enemies, and kill yourself.
4. ????, PROFIT

Classes should enjoy at least a degree of parity, but a downed engineer’s hope of getting back up relies far FAR too much on blind luck; that they’ll roll a string of damage conditions on throw junk, or that enemies will ignore them long enough for #3 to charge up, at which point they can haul them in and explode them.

Once you roll another class, you realise just how woeful engineer’s downed state is for PvE – it absolutely has to change. For an engineer, being downed, is essentially game over. For any other class, being downed is where things start to get intresting…

You are pretty disinformed, or intentionally “forgetting” about certain aspects of these downed skills. You are outright lying about skill 1 in particular, of which you know nothing about. So you are not proving anything.

I’ll focus on pvp, since I feel like you are right by saying our downed skills are -slightly- sub-par in pve. Again, keep in mind I’m talking from a sPvP/WvW perspective.

First and foremost, skill 1 might apply a random condition (between weakness, chilled and bleed so yeah, no cripples or blinds dude ) but it doesn’t mean it’s the only thing it does. It also does -direct- damage. And the damage, while slightly lower then professions such as warrior or thieves, is respectable ( we are talking of a 10 max dmg difference). The conditions, while not always useful, are a plus. You act like it only applies conditions which is WRONG. So you WILL down an enemy with 1% of hp, get your facts straight please.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Throw_Junk Do you even play Engineer?

Second, grappling line. You forgot again that it’s an interrupt. Coincidence, or just trying to prove your point by hiding the truth? It’s also really useful if you are not soloing 100% of the time. You can pull weak enemies to you so your friends in WvW can finish them. The skill is nothing amazing, but still not warranting a “ermagard rework!”

Third skill, nothing to complain at. It’s not the best, it’s not the worst either. Does pretty respectable damage (700+), it’s a combo finisher and has a good blowout. The damage-on-self is not only yet to be confirmed, but probably a bug so it will eventually be fixed.

Tl:dr
Other classes having better downed skills ( namely thieves, warriors and guardians ) doesn’t warrant all this crying for a rework. Our downed skills are neither weak nor strong. They are balanced. There are classes which have far weaker downed skills than us, such as elementalists (only class with 0 stomp prevention, average 3rd skill which they almost never get to use), necros ( average 1st and 2nd, but their 3rd sucks ) and classes who are in the same spot as us, such as mesmers ( strong 2nd, weak 3rd ) or maybe rangers.

Edit:
Please don’t force me to pull numbers from the wiki and do in-depth comparisons. The evidence that our skills are balanced is right in front of you, just do a little research.

Wolfheart: It’s strange because I’ve never seen damage pop up while throwing junk in PvE. I’ll look closer next time I get downed (Which isn’t too frequent thankfully).

As for the skills usefulness in PvP I won’t deny some of these skills are versatile – being able to grapple a guy into the horde during WvW is certain death for him (And a fast rez for you). But this is a game of two halves and the majority of players play PvE; and some like me ONLY play PvE.

While some builds may excel in one or the other, forcing a “team PvP orientated” skill bar on you in solo PvE is major design oversight. Give us the ability to swap downed sets then if that’s their intention.

Also, grapple is an interrupt, yes. A SINGLE TARGET, interrupt that will stop exactly one attack. Contrast to guardian’s AoE interrupt which interrupts and throws away ALL nearby enemies, or mesmer’s decoy which distracts ALL nearby enemies from attacking them for a short while.

The way you say “It’s also really useful if you are not soloing 100% of the time” almost makes it sound like players shouldn’t be soloing. When, the reality is, most of the time you do tend to be soloing and I don’t see why engineer downed skills should be single target focused, when all the other classes can fend off multiple enemies.

So I stand by my position – though perhaps reword it.

Engineers downed skills need to be reworked so they have a fighting chance when faced by more than 1 enemy in a PvE situation, like most of the other classes

Cool, worded this way I honestly can’t think of a way to disagree. We have, indeed, weak downed skills when it comes to pve. They aren’t as terrible as some people say, but we are definitely between the weakest classes when downed. Reworking is a big word though and it probably won’t happen, nor do I support it. A buff, on the other hand… Maybe have 2 do something useful against melee mobs, or increase it’s damage?

P.s. sorry for being quite hostile in my previous post, I tend to get way too personal.

I agree they need to be tweaked some. But that’s pretty much a mantra for our entire class. It obviously wasn’t “finished” by release time.

Skill #1, Throw Junk, really needs to do a bit of damage. As mentioned above, if you’re unlucky and keep getting Chill and Blind and so forth, then you die just through sheer bad luck. Which is very frustrating.

Skills 2 and 3 are unlike the other classes; their #2 and #3 skills are largely independent (Warrior can KD or try and pull a “You’re coming with me!” while a ranger’s interrupts and gets the pet over to help them recover).
Skills 2 and 3 for the Engineer in contrast have great synergy; you pull a target onto you and them blow them to kingdom come with a powerful explosion. I’ve noticed in pve that if I can survive long enough to do it, then (assuming the mobs aren’t beyond at most 25% health of course) I’m usually assured a rally. Of course, you’ve got to survive long enough to do it…

Yeah. Rework is not needed I think, but #3 skill should have lower CD. In 1v1 situation, 99% of time you cannot even use #3 skill.

And of course #3 skill SHOULD NOT DAMAGE Engineer himself. We don’t want a suicide skill when we down.

I find them to be much stronger than on my ele. Grapple line and booby trap are quite strong when timed right and has saved me from being finished off and rallied me in pvp a hell of a lot more often than for example the ele’s grasping earth (hard to time it right to prevent enemy from reaching you) and vapor form (they just run straight after you unless you can use terrain and / or nearbye allies to your advantage).

Ele downed are the worst, nobody argues against that.

As I mentioned earlier, the real problem is thief and Mesmer get a guaranteed interrupt no matter how many are finishing them, and ignores enemy immunity to cc.

while everyone else (cept ele) can only interrupt one person, and if that person has stealth or stability or shrunk then we can’t stop them.

Just bring thief and Mesmer in line and engi downed will suddenly and magically seem fine.

The engi downed is not so bad, but the randomness of the 1 ability is horrible. If it stuck to just damaging conditions it would be ok, but when your spamming it to finish off a mob at 10% and it does nothing but apply weakness it’s frustrating. On any other profession you would have finished the mob, and lived but due to bad luck on the random conditions you died.

I’ve noticed that skill 1 does do some damage; whether I missed it first time or it’s been slipped in, regardless it actually hurts targets (albeit not much, it seems to rely on condition damage for most of it)

The people saying it’s fine seem to be talking purely from a PvP perspective. As i said before this is a game of two halves, and the PvE half is the more played half.

Downed skills need to be relevant in ALL scenarios. It’s ok for a weapon or utiltiy to be more useful in PvP or PvE, but a down skill has to be relevant to all scenarios and right now the engineer bar is fantastic in PvP, and almost useless in PvE. The number 3 is all well and good but honestly, who here ever survives long enough to deploy it?

On my mesmer or guardian I always survive long enough to use it and have a good shot at rallying. Engineer, unless i have the good fortune of being ignored by the mobs for a moment I’m dead 90% of the time.

I tend to agree that Engineer downed skills need to be looked at, while a rework might be too extreme. When I am out soloing and I get downed with no one around to help, I am dead. I don’t see a problem with #1 it does deal some direct damage and the cons, even when they aren’t hurting the mob can buy me a little time with the slow. The grapple has no use in PvE… none, at all. The bomb… it has never saved me tbh, yes I have gotten to use it, but it only prolongs the inevitable.

Ryuujin.8236:

The people saying it’s fine seem to be talking purely from a PvP perspective. As i said before this is a game of two halves, and the PvE half is the more played half.

Downed skills need to be relevant in ALL scenarios. It’s ok for a weapon or utiltiy to be more useful in PvP or PvE, but a down skill has to be relevant to all scenarios and right now the engineer bar is fantastic in PvP, and almost useless in PvE. The number 3 is all well and good but honestly, who here ever survives long enough to deploy it?

On my mesmer or guardian I always survive long enough to use it and have a good shot at rallying. Engineer, unless i have the good fortune of being ignored by the mobs for a moment I’m dead 90% of the time.

This is exactly the problem I’m having with my engineer in PvE. On my Ranger, Necro, Thief…hell pretty much anything else I have a solid chance at rallying but if I go down on my Engineer I’m pretty much screwed.

I think part of the problem is that the random conditions are not terribly useful in PvE. With the ranger’s 1 skill they deal about the same damage as the engineer but always inflict bleeding and as such can usually stack up enough degen to finish off weakened foes (the ranger also still has his pet to help him revive but that’s another story entirely). Whereas the engineer has a 1 in 3 chance of inflicting bleeding with the other 2 being control conditions that won’t help you rally any faster.

I think another issue is that the #2 skill is pretty much useless unless you can immediately follow up with #3. Most of the time it’s a waste to use #2 before #3 has activated. Whereas with most other professions the #2 slot is useful in it’s own right.

I’d like the down state abilities changed too maybe change the rope to the bomb one and lower dmg if needed.

You engineers have GOT to be kidding. I cannot believe you’re calling for a rework on your downed state when it’s in a good place. You want to see underpowered? Go play an elementalist. Our downed state is pathetic. We have NO interrupts on our 2. Our 1 does mediocre damage just like any other 1 skill, so hope of finishing someone there. Our 2 is a channel snare, whose activation has a short delay so unless the enemy is 10 feet away, the snare does nothing to stop them from stomping us. Our 3 is almost never used in close fights because we just get stomped as soon as we’re downed, and if it is used, people just wait for us to come out of it for a free stomp.

Complain about something else. The downed state is for us kittened elementalists.

Personal Battering Ram and rocket boots active should of been downed skills.

Shadowflare.2759:

You engineers have GOT to be kidding. I cannot believe you’re calling for a rework on your downed state when it’s in a good place. You want to see underpowered? Go play an elementalist. Our downed state is pathetic. We have NO interrupts on our 2. Our 1 does mediocre damage just like any other 1 skill, so hope of finishing someone there. Our 2 is a channel snare, whose activation has a short delay so unless the enemy is 10 feet away, the snare does nothing to stop them from stomping us. Our 3 is almost never used in close fights because we just get stomped as soon as we’re downed, and if it is used, people just wait for us to come out of it for a free stomp.

Complain about something else. The downed state is for us kittened elementalists.

Please complain about the elementalist on the elementalist class forum, this place is for engineer players, not people trying to redirect attention to the problems of other classes – This is considered a very poor attempt at trolling and overall idiocy.

Personally, i think it’s okay for the most part.
Engies got 2 interrupts which is nice but the attack they get is a bit bad to be perfectly honest.

Our downed state is mostly in a good place already, I think. Maybe lower the CD on #3 and call it good.(ive rallied off of #3 lots of times, if i can survive that long) The problem as many previously have stated is the few other classes that have OP downed states need nerfed down to our average level.

Remember, you aren’t supposed to be able to rally yourself most of the time. You got downed for a reason. It is supposed to only get you back up if your single opponent is almost dead when you get downed, or you get help from someone else reviving you or helping you finish off the mob. You shouldn’t be able to rally in PVE when you have 3 guys on you at half health or more each. This last ditch effort to self-rally from a downed state is like the hail-mary pass in football. It doesn’t normally save the day. But when it does, its awesome.

Our down state is one of the best in the game. Perhaps before issuing complaint, some of you should play a few of the other classes a few levels.

@ Vigilence (since the webpage is bugged for me right now and can’t quote):

Maybe it’s a poor attempt at trolling because -gasp- it’s not trolling? I never complain either. In fact if you look through my posts, if there is such an option, you’ll never find a complaint post. You can’t be more wrong when you assume that I’m just trying to draw attention to other issues.

The only reason why I mentioned elementalists was to make a comparison. I simply cannot stand the fact that you’re complaining about the engineer downed state when it’s fine. I don’t complain about the elementalists’ downed state when it’s clearly the worst of every profession, so why should you? If anything you should be calling for toning down on some other professions, because the problem is that those other classes have it too easy, not because yours is weak.

coglin.1496:

Our down state is one of the best in the game. Perhaps before issuing complaint, some of you should play a few of the other classes a few levels.

Actually I have, as my post indicates I have played every profession, except elementalist, to at least lvl 25 in PvE. And I can say with certainty that I have a much worse shot at rallying with engineer downed skills that the other professions.

I simply do not agree with that.

Agree with original poster. The engineer downed state is atrocious compared to other classes. On top of that we have no ability to help with downing another player (unlike classes with stability or stealth)