Guild Wars 2

Patch day is almost with us again, so enjoy your current engineer builds before they get ineptly nerfed in the scorched earth approach the devs take to targeting some random facet of engineer that actually works okay and carpet bombing the entire skillset it resides in from orbit.

HGH & any boon stacking/spiking builds have to be concerned about what the boonhate changes will mean for them. Changes designed to make builds that stack boons easier to kill, aimed at bunkers but probably affecting dps builds too as it’s hard to separate the two. We have very few details about what this will entail though. Likely these changes will affect all classes, but the past shows that any classwide changes won’t get engineer specific counter balance changes that other more populated classes might get.

100nades is almost definitely going to be nuked into the dust of history, because no engineer should be allowed to burst anything like other classes, e.g. thief, even if it’s massively more complex to operate and has far less survivability. All because one time at band camp a dev’s second cousin saw a photo-shopped picture of 24k damage. You’d need a planetary alignment to get that against an upscaled level 7 player in WvW. Theif, mes, warrior would probably burst far harder in same circumstances. With the devs past record for maladriot engineer changes that are far more deadly cures than the disease ever was, let’s hope they don’t break grenade kit in the process.

Slick shoes and elixir R were also mentioned at the same time as 100nades, so inept heavyhanded nerfs may be coming for the few people who use those.

Kit refinement will be getting another pass. Considering how asinine the last kit refinement change was, the equivalent of curing a patients headache by shooting them in the forehead with a high caliber pistol, multikitters have every right to be be scared of this change.

On the plus side, they have some awesome boosts in store for us. e.g. thumper turrets will now be able to cripple, so expect all 5 people who use thumper turret to be overjoyed.

just wondering, when did they mention they are going to nerf slick shoes and elixir R@@?

Kalan.9705:

Patch day is almost with us again, so enjoy your current engineer builds before they get ineptly nerfed in the scorched earth approach the devs take to targeting some random facet of engineer that actually works okay and carpet bombing the entire skillset it resides in from orbit.

100nades is almost definitely going to be nuked into the dust of history, because no engineer should be allowed to burst anything like other classes, e.g. thief, even if it’s massively more complex to operate and has far less survivability. All because one time at band camp a dev’s second cousin saw a photo-shopped picture of 24k damage. You’d need a planetary alignment to get that against an upscaled level 7 player in WvW. Theif, mes, warrior would probably burst far harder in same circumstances. With the devs past record for maladriot engineer changes that are far more deadly cures than the disease ever was, let’s hope they don’t break grenade kit in the process.

Slick shoes and elixir R were also mentioned at the same time as 100nades, so inept heavyhanded nerfs may be coming for the few people who use those.

Kit refinement will be getting another pass. Considering how asinine the last kit refinement change was, the equivalent of curing a patients headache by shooting them in the forehead with a high caliber pistol, multikitters have every right to be be scared of this change.

On the plus side, they have some awesome boosts in store for us. e.g. thumper turrets will now be able to cripple, so expect all 5 people who use thumper turret to be overjoyed.

I think a warrior might be more your speed.

I seriously don’t understand how people can live and die by the Grenade Kit.

linck.9186:

just wondering, when did they mention they are going to nerf slick shoes and elixir R@@?

They mentioned those while also speaking about “24k damage grenade” builds.

You failed to mention the AoE nerf that may destroy a large portion of our damage.

MrSilver.5269:

You failed to mention the AoE nerf that may destroy a large portion of our damage.

True. It’s also a concern that a general aoe nerf across all classes won’t get specific engineer counter balance changes either. We don’t know much about what shape this aoe nerf might take though.

kinda saw the AOE nerf coming a long time ago. Seems like most professions hardest hitting attacks are mostly AOE’s. Exception maybe theif.

anyway OP our whole post seems to be angry that 100nades is getting nerfed and elixer boon stacking might take a hit. TBH we’ve been pigeon holded into those builds because they are too good. They’re bringing everything else up, but they gotta bring those down a bit too.

Also, if you listened to his little “description” of the engineer…he considered us a tanky mid ranged fighter….doesnt sound like arenanet ever really considered us to be able to excel at burst damage. Especially when the guy balancing your profession considers you a tanky class…and it makes sense, notice the engineer rune set is toughness, and the default spvp gear it gives you is rune of earth (toughness and protection duration/proc). Then consider no matter what weapon your holding, most attacks give you extra benefit for being close.

On the bright side, they just gave flamethrower and EG long over due buffs and now turrets are getting buffs, good chance gadgets will too.

Zinwrath.2049:

Also, if you listened to his little “description” of the engineer…he considered us a tanky mid ranged fighter….doesnt sound like arenanet ever really considered us to be able to excel at burst damage. Especially when the guy balancing your profession considers you a tanky class…and it makes sense, notice the engineer rune set is toughness, and the default spvp gear it gives you is rune of earth (toughness and protection duration/proc). Then consider no matter what weapon your holding, most attacks give you extra benefit for being close.

I don’t know, is there a class out there that cannot be tanky? I can build and play a pretty survivable condition thief, and we all know just about every class out there can make a bunker spec. We aren’t even the best bunker class out there, although we’re not the worst. We only average base health and medium armor.

So are we supposed to be tanky regardless of how we build, or am I missing the point?

Either way, looking forward to patch day. Whatever happens guys, remember this is a no-subscription game. If things are really screwed, just walk away and come back when they’ve got a clue.

They also mentioned a condition damage buff. Which is something I’m quite curious about. Looking forward to other buffs too. Hope they’ll put engineer ij a better spot. But yeah I’m also scared about the stuff you mentioned. Hope elixer builds won’t be nerfed too much because I quite like the condition nade elixer build.

irakai.6891:

Zinwrath.2049:

Also, if you listened to his little “description” of the engineer…he considered us a tanky mid ranged fighter….doesnt sound like arenanet ever really considered us to be able to excel at burst damage. Especially when the guy balancing your profession considers you a tanky class…and it makes sense, notice the engineer rune set is toughness, and the default spvp gear it gives you is rune of earth (toughness and protection duration/proc). Then consider no matter what weapon your holding, most attacks give you extra benefit for being close.

I don’t know, is there a class out there that cannot be tanky? I can build and play a pretty survivable condition thief, and we all know just about every class out there can make a bunker spec. We aren’t even the best bunker class out there, although we’re not the worst. We only average base health and medium armor.

So are we supposed to be tanky regardless of how we build, or am I missing the point?

Either way, looking forward to patch day. Whatever happens guys, remember this is a no-subscription game. If things are really screwed, just walk away and come back when they’ve got a clue.

average base health yes, but still higher than gaurdian based health and they bunker

And ya medium armor, but Elementalist wear light and are probably one of (if not the) the best bunkers

But ya we’re not the best, but you kinda explained my point. We dont get a lot of invis etc. So we gotta grab a bit more tanky stats to accomidate that, we do however get a lot of blocks/blinds/knockbacks/immobalize. I guess my point is, this is what they want us to do…..so i would expect any future changes to shift us at being better at doing that, vs insta bursting someone…like 100 nades.

I have stayed pretty positive so far with anticipation of the upcoming patch, I just hope the buffs we gain are more than the nerfs.

Theres some good stuff in those 30-40 bullet points tbh.
I find op to be overly dramatic.

Kalan.9705:

Patch day is almost with us again, so enjoy your current engineer builds before they get ineptly nerfed in the scorched earth approach the devs take to targeting some random facet of engineer that actually works okay and carpet bombing the entire skillset it resides in from orbit.

HGH & any boon stacking/spiking builds have to be concerned about what the boonhate changes will mean for them. Changes designed to make builds that stack boons easier to kill, aimed at bunkers but probably affecting dps builds too as it’s hard to separate the two. We have very few details about what this will entail though. Likely these changes will affect all classes, but the past shows that any classwide changes won’t get engineer specific counter balance changes that other more populated classes might get.

100nades is almost definitely going to be nuked into the dust of history, because no engineer should be allowed to burst anything like other classes, e.g. thief, even if it’s massively more complex to operate and has far less survivability. All because one time at band camp a dev’s second cousin saw a photo-shopped picture of 24k damage. You’d need a planetary alignment to get that against an upscaled level 7 player in WvW. Theif, mes, warrior would probably burst far harder in same circumstances. With the devs past record for maladriot engineer changes that are far more deadly cures than the disease ever was, let’s hope they don’t break grenade kit in the process.

Slick shoes and elixir R were also mentioned at the same time as 100nades, so inept heavyhanded nerfs may be coming for the few people who use those.

Kit refinement will be getting another pass. Considering how asinine the last kit refinement change was, the equivalent of curing a patients headache by shooting them in the forehead with a high caliber pistol, multikitters have every right to be be scared of this change.

On the plus side, they have some awesome boosts in store for us. e.g. thumper turrets will now be able to cripple, so expect all 5 people who use thumper turret to be overjoyed.

I don’t appreciate these sorts of sensationalist posts. This is not unique, and I won’t tell you to shut up. I think it is a fair statement to say that, “The Devs have not effectively communicated what they want to do with the Engineer with us.” But this interpretation of changes that are not set in stone, nebulous, and very easy to interpret in several ways, benefits no one.

What this does is hype up certain expectations, good or bad, and it is a disservice. For the every-man, please stop making posts like this.

It’s okay, the devs still don’t know about any of our good builds because none of them play engineer in PvP at any decent level, to my knowledge. So, they may be nerfed by mistake, but none of them will be intentionally targeted for nerfs.

They did mention wanting condition builds to get better, which was very surprising to me. So it seems to me that engineers stand to gain more than they lose this patch.

Kit refinement was a fun trait that really made you feel cool when playing a 3-4 kit engineer, but sadly we must now leave it behind. In a way, it’s good for the engineer profession to get a little easier to play. It was pretty tough for new players to feel competent, especially in PvP. Now that they are nerfing our difficult niche builds and buffing our easy builds, engineers will see more players.

They still have no idea what turrets do, though. It’s going to be a long, long, long time before they get up to an acceptable level.

6months of being patient and considered has got engineer far less dev effort than other far more polished classes. I’d love to be proved wrong with the coming patch, nevertheless A-net have to overcome their own track record from the previous patches.

Elementalist released with rubbish downed skills and had them buffed within a short time, for just one example. Why are engineer downed skills still total rubbish?

The problem seems to stem from a lack of vision and focus on the devs part. The devs only seem to have ideas of what they don’t want the engineer to be:

1. Oh no! Engineers have some class identity with their bunkers, that’s for other classes, so nerf smoke skills!
2. Oh no! Engineers have some class identity with applying conditions effectively, that’s for other classes, so nerf explosive shot!
3. Oh no! Engineers have some class identity with removing conditions, that’s for other classes, so nerf medpack4 also FT/EG combo!
4. Oh no! Engineers have some class identity with stomping people, that’s for other classes, so nerf Juggernaut!
5. Oh no! Engineers have some class identity with underwater grenade combat, it must be nerfed to no-identity mediocre at best!
6. Oh no! Some engineers specced to support heal with Super Elixir, quick nerf SE massively and then adjust it up a completely neglible amount afterwards.
7. Oh no! A few Engineers are using their class mechanic to swap kits, that’s too much class identity, quick butcher kit refinement!
8. Because no-one (not even engineers) wants to engage in some kind of rehearsed synchronised routine of ‘mid-ranged’ combat, devs can pretend we are good at something that doesn’t exist. While fixing & adding none of the tools needed for actual battlefield mobility – hello JUMP—, hang, wait, eat a sandwich, read the paper, then land, —SHOT etc

What message are we getting from the devs about what they think the engineer should do, as opposed to what it cannot do?

1. We can have some slight buffs to turrets, provided they are useless overall and their traits are stupid.
2. We can have grenades sort of, with numerous nerfs, provided they are only dangerous at close range, or to people who are afk or stupid / NPC’s at longer ranges.
3. Because our mainhand weapons are deliberately weaker by design, we can have kits like flamethrower, but because they’re a kit they not allowed to have any finishers or any range like the equivalent but superior mixed power/condi weapons like warrior longbow. Also anyone who’s ever actually played the engineer knows how suicidal their auto-attack is from retaliation. So we have a kit with traits that direct you to not swap out, but you can’t stay in kit to use the auto-attack. Genius.

Engineer that people bought into at BWE1 had tons of bugs and tons of unfinished areas, but also far more class identity and far more potential. Now we have this middle of the road mediocre mess, with very nearly just as many bugs and now masses of class defining areas watered down to average or worse. The buglist from BWE1 is still basically the same it simply hasn’t gotten a fraction of the attention it’s needed.

tl;dr It’s okay to take things away, even class defining things, as long as you give new important things to replace them to ensure a class retains an identity. This hasn’t happened so far. Also leaving the class with the most bugs, to be last for bugfixes, won’t make that class community happy

Toolkit has improved quite a bit though, so I guess that’s the devs vision, engineers use toolkit.

Kalan.9705:

6months of being patient and considered has got engineer far less dev effort than other far more polished classes. I’d love to be proved wrong with the coming patch, nevertheless A-net have to overcome their own track record from the previous patches.

Engineer is not the only class to suffer from this effect tho. Necros have the same problem, stuff like their class mechanic and minions not working properly since beta, same is true for quite some traits.

yay.. every single profession has thier own doomsday prophet in the forums. patch is comming, boon hate,stealth nerf, kit fix blah blah.. really is this how people go through life.

Ariantes.9068:

Kalan.9705:

6months of being patient and considered has got engineer far less dev effort than other far more polished classes. I’d love to be proved wrong with the coming patch, nevertheless A-net have to overcome their own track record from the previous patches.

Engineer is not the only class to suffer from this effect tho. Necros have the same problem, stuff like their class mechanic and minions not working properly since beta, same is true for quite some traits.

I entirely agree, the dev effort into classes has been very, mixed and appears to favour classes they play. It’s no only an engineer problem. This means
a) the devs don’t have enough devs to play all the classes properly on the balance team
b) they are getting very bad information about the classes they don’t play and hence making very bad decisions. (no-one who actually played an engineer could have okayed the kit refinement mess from last patch for e.g., no-one who played engineer would take the stability from juggernaut, without replacing it with access to stability somewhere else and on and on)
c) they need both a test server, and a 1 dedicated dev per class minimum, ontop of the class balance generalists, as a proper workflow for the balance team.

Kalan.9705:

I entirely agree, the dev effort into classes has been very, mixed and appears to favour classes they play. It’s no only an engineer problem. This means
a) the devs don’t have enough devs to play all the classes properly on the balance team
b) they are getting very bad information about the classes they don’t play and hence making very bad decisions. (no-one who actually played an engineer could have okayed the kit refinement mess from last patch for e.g., no-one who played engineer would take the stability from juggernaut, without replacing it with access to stability somewhere else and on and on)
c) they need both a test server, and a 1 dedicated dev per class minimum, ontop of the class balance generalists, as a proper workflow for the balance team.

Or,

d) Balancing the Engineer is a significantly more difficult effort than balancing the Warrior or Guardian.

I also think you’re really exaggerating how bad we have it. The only real underperforming build we have at the moment is turrets. Gadgets could also probably use a look, but aside from maybe buffing the Flame Jet’s damage another 10-15%, our kits are pretty much where they should be.

And why would anyone think that our mainhand weapons are intentionally designed to be weak? The Pistol is one of the few weapons (if not the only) in the game that can spread Bleed, Poison, Confusion, and Burn.

And the Rifle … really? Net Shot is one of the best immobilization skills in the game. And Jump Shot’s leap with Rifled Barrels is so ridiculous that breaks most Jumping Puzzles. If you have trouble staying outside melee range with the Rifle, that is entirely between you and your keyboard.

Dev post, from december:

“Engineer
The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.”

Kalan.9705:

but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.

Our Rifle and Pistol are not the best areas that we shine in when it comes to either Power or Condition Damage, but that does not, by default, make them “weak.”

Static Discharge with the Rifle speaks for itself, as do any Condition Damage builds that incorporate the Pistol’s 2-4 skills. Unlike other classes, they’re simply not designed to stand on their own.

Probably because if they did, on top of our kit selection, we’d actually be overpowered. A Guardian has to make a conscious decision between using a Hammer for control or a Greatsword for DPS. We get to just swap out of our kits and use the Rifle when we need the snares/knockbacks.

At any time.

Hrmm Phineas, there is no difference between any class swapping it’s skills or weapons once they leave combat, and an engineer swapping it’s kits=once the engineer leaves combat.

You could go so far as to say many classes weapons are less dependent on specific traiting setups to be useful than engineer, e.g. grenades. Making others more versatile with swapping their setup without visiting a re-trait NPC.

Also everyone gets 2-4 skills, some of them are really good too.

cry after you play the changes. not before. i understand that people are at work durring the day and cant get on the game so they come to the forums instead but cut the doomsday posts. gather facts now to compare to post patch and post about that. until then there is no reason to not play your character as it is.

unless in some way it seems logical to you to have a short period of time to play a class as you love it….. but instead you spend that time on the forums crying that it will be gone. its like crying that one day someone you love will die.. and they are still alive.

Kalan.9705:

Hrmm Phineas, there is no difference between any class swapping it’s skills or weapons once they leave combat, and an engineer swapping it’s kits=once the engineer leaves combat.

wat.

I’m going to admit, straight out, that I stopped reading after I read the bit about ‘6 months of being patient and considered.’

There’s a reason for that, and it’s pretty obvious if you look at the posts (including my own, at times, I won’t deny) of the last six months, especially the ones around patch days. If that’s what ‘patient and considered’ looks like, man, I do not want to see what comes after that.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Kalan.9705:

Hrmm Phineas, there is no difference between any class swapping it’s skills or weapons once they leave combat, and an engineer swapping it’s kits=once the engineer leaves combat.

wat.

I think he means that other classes can carry any or all weapons in their inventory, and chose two depending on the situation.

So a guardian can do GS+Hammer, and carry around a scepter for those times that he needs something ranged.

You need to be out of combat to change your two weapons, but engineers similarly need to be out of combat to change utilities (kits).

Of course we can max out at effectively 4 different weapons at one time, at the cost of other utilities.

Kalan.9705:

6months of being patient and considered has got engineer far less dev effort than other far more polished classes. I’d love to be proved wrong with the coming patch, nevertheless A-net have to overcome their own track record from the previous patches.

Elementalist released with rubbish downed skills and had them buffed within a short time, for just one example. Why are engineer downed skills still total rubbish?

The problem seems to stem from a lack of vision and focus on the devs part. The devs only seem to have ideas of what they don’t want the engineer to be:

1. Oh no! Engineers have some class identity with their bunkers, that’s for other classes, so nerf smoke skills!
2. Oh no! Engineers have some class identity with applying conditions effectively, that’s for other classes, so nerf explosive shot!
3. Oh no! Engineers have some class identity with removing conditions, that’s for other classes, so nerf medpack4 also FT/EG combo!
4. Oh no! Engineers have some class identity with stomping people, that’s for other classes, so nerf Juggernaut!
5. Oh no! Engineers have some class identity with underwater grenade combat, it must be nerfed to no-identity mediocre at best!
6. Oh no! Some engineers specced to support heal with Super Elixir, quick nerf SE massively and then adjust it up a completely neglible amount afterwards.
7. Oh no! A few Engineers are using their class mechanic to swap kits, that’s too much class identity, quick butcher kit refinement!
8. Because no-one (not even engineers) wants to engage in some kind of rehearsed synchronised routine of ‘mid-ranged’ combat, devs can pretend we are good at something that doesn’t exist. While fixing & adding none of the tools needed for actual battlefield mobility – hello JUMP—, hang, wait, eat a sandwich, read the paper, then land, —SHOT etc

What message are we getting from the devs about what they think the engineer should do, as opposed to what it cannot do?

1. We can have some slight buffs to turrets, provided they are useless overall and their traits are stupid.
2. We can have grenades sort of, with numerous nerfs, provided they are only dangerous at close range, or to people who are afk or stupid / NPC’s at longer ranges.
3. Because our mainhand weapons are deliberately weaker by design, we can have kits like flamethrower, but because they’re a kit they not allowed to have any finishers or any range like the equivalent but superior mixed power/condi weapons like warrior longbow. Also anyone who’s ever actually played the engineer knows how suicidal their auto-attack is from retaliation. So we have a kit with traits that direct you to not swap out, but you can’t stay in kit to use the auto-attack. Genius.

Engineer that people bought into at BWE1 had tons of bugs and tons of unfinished areas, but also far more class identity and far more potential. Now we have this middle of the road mediocre mess, with very nearly just as many bugs and now masses of class defining areas watered down to average or worse. The buglist from BWE1 is still basically the same it simply hasn’t gotten a fraction of the attention it’s needed.

tl;dr It’s okay to take things away, even class defining things, as long as you give new important things to replace them to ensure a class retains an identity. This hasn’t happened so far. Also leaving the class with the most bugs, to be last for bugfixes, won’t make that class community happy

Toolkit has improved quite a bit though, so I guess that’s the devs vision, engineers use toolkit.

Spot on. This is what bother’s me the most, not only with the Engineer, but with the recent changes to WvW concerning character bound Ranks/Titles/Skills. If you want to see more info see my post here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/WvW-Titles-Rank-Skills-Multiple-Characters/first

The first bullet point is everything that you touched on.

The Engineer, Ranger, and Necro suffer from some annoying bugs and under powered, dumb pets/turrets and if this character bound progression is much grinder than we think we will see the meta to further revolve around Warriors, Guardians, and Mesmers.

More on Engineers though, this profession really suffers from an entry level build. Even as simple as P/P HGH-Kiteless/Tool is for many of us, compared to Meta they are tough and can be clumsy to use. We need to be able to grow this profession and let’s be honest, if things were great/balanced now we should be in the Meta and we are not. It seems that the Devs want us to swap between many kit’s to use those specific skills to our builds and rapidly swap between kits and that’s great, but again for many this is just too fast paced with everything going on. Yes there are people like Mask out there with so much talent, but we need more flow with kits.

My solution would be to make kit’s a bit more specific towards condition or direct damage. For example maybe Toolkit #1 should do a bleed instead of vulnerability. It already hits like a truck direct damage-wise. Direct damage folks also use prybar to wreck faces and chances are if they are going direct damage they are using Rifle and staying ranged to begin with as soon as they bump some heads.

As far as pistols are however, it’s frustrating that they put the weapon that has everything for condition builds and nerf it into the ground. Why couldn’t they have made this into a kit?

Anyways that’s my two copper.

Goloith.6349:

The Engineer, Ranger, and Necro suffer from some annoying bugs and under powered, dumb pets/turrets and if this character bound progression is much grinder than we think we will see the meta to further revolve around Warriors, Guardians, and Mesmers.

Not to say everything is perfect…but did you just say the meta revolves around warriors? Did the recent poll they just took showed warriors to be considered the weakest profession in pvp? and more competitive spvp teams dont waste a slot on one?

there nerfing mortar !!!!

the meta is revolved around warriors, in so far as warriors are considered the control class from which the devs balance other classes. that would make it very integral the the meta.

shouldnt the control be near the center of the bell curve.

Zinwrath.2049:

Goloith.6349:

The Engineer, Ranger, and Necro suffer from some annoying bugs and under powered, dumb pets/turrets and if this character bound progression is much grinder than we think we will see the meta to further revolve around Warriors, Guardians, and Mesmers.

Not to say everything is perfect…but did you just say the meta revolves around warriors? Did the recent poll they just took showed warriors to be considered the weakest profession in pvp? and more competitive spvp teams dont waste a slot on one?

What the Devs and the players in the latest state of the game were discussing was sPvP (s-small), not large scale PvP in World vs. World. In PvE and WvW they are extremely strong.

the s stands for structured, not small.

Goloith.6349:

Zinwrath.2049:

Goloith.6349:

The Engineer, Ranger, and Necro suffer from some annoying bugs and under powered, dumb pets/turrets and if this character bound progression is much grinder than we think we will see the meta to further revolve around Warriors, Guardians, and Mesmers.

Not to say everything is perfect…but did you just say the meta revolves around warriors? Did the recent poll they just took showed warriors to be considered the weakest profession in pvp? and more competitive spvp teams dont waste a slot on one?

What the Devs and the players in the latest state of the game were discussing was sPvP (s-small), not large scale PvP in World vs. World. In PvE and WvW they are extremely strong.

Hilariously go and look at the SPvP browser in prime time.

Usually there is less than 500 people playing SPvP and 300+ servers sit empty.

But the entire game is supposedly balance around this handful of players to the detriment of the other players.

If engineers are supposed to be tanky, then why don’t we have more ways to lower damage?

We don’t have a manual way to trigger protection. Don’t respond with Elixir H because that’s an unreliable RNG effect. We do have auto-triggers, but I don’t count those either.

We may have more ways to block, but one way gets immediately stopped if any enemy is within melee range.

We don’t have a way to create Aegis, which is definitely a Tank-style effect.

We do have ways to give us constant vigor, as well as traits to increase our Endurance regen. That is a part of tanking, but for many it doesn’t seem like it matches with our leather-wearing compatriot the ranger.

All in all, it doesn’t seem like we are as tanky as they mention. If they want us to be more tankish, then they should give us an armor bonus since we don’t have guaranteed protection.

So . . how are we tanky again?

Honestly I don’t think that anyone who plays an engi in SPvP effectively will ever describe the class as karl did. No offense to karl, but holy kitten that is a bad description of the class.

There’s 3 VIABLE spec “types” in my eyes that the engi has:

Condi nades (possibly mangled by boon hate buffs)
Power hundred nades (rifle without hundred nades is subpar, possible mangled by kit refinement nerfs)
Bunker (possibly mangled by kit refinement nerfs)

None of these qualify in any circumstances as a mid range “skirmisher”. When I think of a skirmisher I think of a fast class which is precisely what an engi is not. I mean kitten

Oh, and I am not afraid of nerfs if they’re coming. At the moment I think the only way they can ever kill engis in SPvP again is through nade nerfs or nerfs to elixir S or nerfs to boons in general.

It won’t be bad, guys. The WORST that can happen is if they pull off another smoke bomb patch and nerf us into the ground for months and months until they give us sigils, HGH and a good tolkit.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Honestly I don’t think that anyone who plays an engi in SPvP effectively will ever describe the class as karl did. No offense to karl, but holy kitten that is a bad description of the class.

There’s 3 VIABLE spec “types” in my eyes that the engi has:

Condi nades (possibly mangled by boon hate buffs)
Power hundred nades (rifle without hundred nades is subpar, possible mangled by kit refinement nerfs)
Bunker (possibly mangled by kit refinement nerfs).

Why did you take your Power HGH nades off of the table? I’ve always thought it was a pretty strong build, even if there is a lot of dependence on landing grenades. Why do you feel it is now subpar – it hasn’t been changed, really.

luckywaldo.6089:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Kalan.9705:

Hrmm Phineas, there is no difference between any class swapping it’s skills or weapons once they leave combat, and an engineer swapping it’s kits=once the engineer leaves combat.

wat.

I think he means that other classes can carry any or all weapons in their inventory, and chose two depending on the situation.

So a guardian can do GS+Hammer, and carry around a scepter for those times that he needs something ranged.

I knew what he meant. And that’s precisely what I do on my Guardian and Engineer. On my Engi I carry three pistols with me, one with Bloodlust, one with Strength, and one with Force. I also carry two Rifles with me, one with Battle and another with Bloodlust.

But I was talking about while in combat. And in combat the Engineer has plenty more options available than any other class if using kits. We are designed to swap in and out of our kits and weapons, which is why the devs say that we pay a cost for that versatility—because if our Rifle or Pistol was powerful enough to stand alone on its own, on top of the added utility of kits, we would be overpowered.

Talking about swapping weapons outside of combat is totally irrelevant and a pretty hysterical rebuttal to my point.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Honestly I don’t think that anyone who plays an engi in SPvP effectively will ever describe the class as karl did. No offense to karl, but holy kitten that is a bad description of the class.

There’s 3 VIABLE spec “types” in my eyes that the engi has:

Condi nades (possibly mangled by boon hate buffs)
Power hundred nades (rifle without hundred nades is subpar, possible mangled by kit refinement nerfs)
Bunker (possibly mangled by kit refinement nerfs)

None of these qualify in any circumstances as a mid range “skirmisher”. When I think of a skirmisher I think of a fast class which is precisely what an engi is not. I mean kitten

Oh, and I am not afraid of nerfs if they’re coming. At the moment I think the only way they can ever kill engis in SPvP again is through nade nerfs or nerfs to elixir S or nerfs to boons in general.

It won’t be bad, guys. The WORST that can happen is if they pull off another smoke bomb patch and nerf us into the ground for months and months until they give us sigils, HGH and a good tolkit.

While i mostly agree with you, i think we should be quite happy we have more than 1 “viable” spec.. some classes have 1(with some point variation) or more but plays exactly the same pretty much. Though of those builds are VERY strong and very good at what they are doing :/

@Vuh

Well 100nade is going down next patch. So we are down to 2 build, and I rarely ever see our bunker build. Why would you take it over a guardian?

Nerf my static discharge, that’s a paddlin’
Nerf my gadgets, that’s a paddlin’
Nerf my toolkit, that’s a paddlin’

Kalan.9705:

Dev post, from december:

“Engineer
The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.”

It would be a great class description if the Engineer would actually function that way. Instead this is how I have come to know the Engineer (with one future addition regarding boon hate):

“Engineer
The Engineer is a below average class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, or the versatility of the Elementalist, or the mobility of the Thief; they are forced to sit uncomfortably at medium to short ranges in most fights. They have a little bit of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) marked as targets for boon hate in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this slight versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons and sacrificing utility slots to do so.”

;)

Now is the time to go film all your favorite skills in order to have a metric by which to measure any patch changes.

Kardiamond.6952:

@Vuh

Well 100nade is going down next patch. So we are down to 2 build, and I rarely ever see our bunker build. Why would you take it over a guardian?

Why do you say that?

In PvE there’s three great specs I can think of, off the top of my head: HGH Grenadier, FT/EG hybrid, and P/P HGH.

In sPvP/WvW, there’s Static Discharge, PPHGH, 100nades, and “TankCat.” Never mind the improvised variants of each, like slotting the Flamethrower in place of other kits that redefines how you play the entire role.

I find other classes extremely stifling by comparison, where I feel like I have to be using one setup that clearly outclasses everything else. The only class that didn’t make me feel like that is Guardian—which is why it’s the only class that managed to hold my interest to level 80.

I’m not talking about PvE, as I can make any kind of build and still be viable.

I’m talking about sPvP.

Static discharge → Supbart in sPvP. You are a glass cannon with very low survability and weak conditions removal. Your dps burst is lower then a mesmer shatter burst, without there infinite escape mecanism.

PPHGH : Condi Burst is the top version of PPHGH in sPvP, and basically a variant of the traditionnal PPHGH.

100nades : They said in the SotG they were going to remove it next patch.

Tankcat : Bunker build, and not as efficient as Guardian bunker.

Like any class, you can use tons of build if you want. The question is : Is it competitive?

Chaith.8256:

Ostricheggs.3742:

Honestly I don’t think that anyone who plays an engi in SPvP effectively will ever describe the class as karl did. No offense to karl, but holy kitten that is a bad description of the class.

There’s 3 VIABLE spec “types” in my eyes that the engi has:

Condi nades (possibly mangled by boon hate buffs)
Power hundred nades (rifle without hundred nades is subpar, possible mangled by kit refinement nerfs)
Bunker (possibly mangled by kit refinement nerfs).

Why did you take your Power HGH nades off of the table? I’ve always thought it was a pretty strong build, even if there is a lot of dependence on landing grenades. Why do you feel it is now subpar – it hasn’t been changed, really.

I’ve played a good amount of both. Power HGH is great, amazing and borderline OP even, but why not be able to play the same playstyle and be able to one shot someone at any moment at the same time? In a tools hundred nades build with elixir C I can see the same amount of damage on nades/rifle as HGH power with only a bit less survivability (not the strong point of powe builds, by the way) while not having to deal with might stacks and being able to one shot people.

Hundred nades is probably the best burst in the entire game, too. I personally think it deserves a whack with the nerf bat. To compare it to any other power build is difficult at the moment, because it’s by far the best and running without it is kinda dumb.

@Ostrich

I personally have more success with HGH build then 100nades.

Like you said, what you get in burst, you lose it in survivability.

And if they make conditions better like they said, and disable 100nade, Condi burst will be a monster.

Also, I hate how nearly 90% of our build resolve around stacking might.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Chaith.8256:

Ostricheggs.3742:

Honestly I don’t think that anyone who plays an engi in SPvP effectively will ever describe the class as karl did. No offense to karl, but holy kitten that is a bad description of the class.

There’s 3 VIABLE spec “types” in my eyes that the engi has:

Condi nades (possibly mangled by boon hate buffs)
Power hundred nades (rifle without hundred nades is subpar, possible mangled by kit refinement nerfs)
Bunker (possibly mangled by kit refinement nerfs).

Why did you take your Power HGH nades off of the table? I’ve always thought it was a pretty strong build, even if there is a lot of dependence on landing grenades. Why do you feel it is now subpar – it hasn’t been changed, really.

I’ve played a good amount of both. Power HGH is great, amazing and borderline OP even, but why not be able to play the same playstyle and be able to one shot someone at any moment at the same time? In a tools hundred nades build with elixir C I can see the same amount of damage on nades/rifle as HGH power with only a bit less survivability (not the strong point of powe builds, by the way) while not having to deal with might stacks and being able to one shot people.

Hundred nades is probably the best burst in the entire game, too. I personally think it deserves a whack with the nerf bat. To compare it to any other power build is difficult at the moment, because it’s by far the best and running without it is kinda dumb.

You are definitely right in your assumptions about power Engineers. HGH Power grenades might be a little better than you give credit for, though, compared to 100nade. I’ve been trying your build a little bit lately, and I think it’s borderline OP / awesome as well. There are multiple ways to devastate an enemy team or be effective in turning battles around other than getting good gibs.

Sacrificing on demand condition removal x6 (12/minute) and maybe 20% sustained damage is a high price to pay for that extra grenade barrage. I will miss the defensive 100nade playstyle that suited me so well, but let’s just say I’m not heartbroken.

To me, it’s really troubling that the pool of highly competitive power builds is .. shallow.

Fingers crossed for better power gadgets/turrets/kits.