Guild Wars 2

I never wanted weapon swap on engi before, never needed it and still dont, but playing scrapper this weekend… I felt like being able to switch to rifle would of just been amazing. Again, I know we dont need it, but I feel like it fits for scrapper

Would just be awesome if the scrappers class-mechanic were this:
- Gain access to weaponswaps as long as you don’t use any utility-kits.

Still can equip the mortar & healing kit, but would reward us for trying out stuff aside from nades, EG and TK

Arantheal.7396:

Would just be awesome if the scrappers class-mechanic were this:
- Gain access to weaponswaps as long as you don’t use any utility-kits.

Still can equip the mortar & healing kit, but would reward us for trying out stuff aside from nades, EG and TK

A good starting point for a class mechanic I agree. Hopefully a future spec does this.

I would also like this. Would be interesting to work just with elixers or turrets and then P/P and Hammer.

Swapping between Hammer and Elixir Gun seemed fine to add a long range option. I tested it along with Gyros and it worked out pretty well in dungeons and fractals at least.

Bitoku Kishi.8346:

Swapping between Hammer and Elixir Gun seemed fine to add a long range option. I tested it along with Gyros and it worked out pretty well in dungeons and fractals at least.

No one is saying there is no synergy between kits & our weapons, but we’d like to explore the synergy BETWEEN our weapons.

That will be great but I don’t think it will happen, no point to discuss

Mebaru.4513:

That will be great but I don’t think it will happen, no point to discuss

Ofc it will never happen if no one expresses their wishes.

remember how long we had to remember A-net to remove hobosacks?
Or make mortar into a mobile kit?
Or removing the rng on our elixirs?
Or giving us back stab on Juggernaut?
Or improving our condi-clears?
Or restoring the 100% swiftness uptime on streamlined kits after the feature patch?
Or restoring the 1.2k range on rifle?
Or upping the heal on med-blaster?
Or upping the dmg on FT?
…
..
.

I wouldn’t want a traditional weapon switch on the engie as it would feel like the class is watered down. What I want is this.

Limit it to 1 device and weapon kit equip at a time mortar is except from this. up the damage and effect of all weapon/device kits to feel more like primary weapons but the kits now incur a 10 second cooldown once they are dropped.

This would make the kits feel more like unique weapons to the engineer than a quick equip spam and unequip that they currently are.

This kind of beats the whole engine theme. But. What if, Instead of weapon swap, we get to use our swap slot as another utility slot?
It would fix having to sacrifice utilities for kits.. Especially now that we have more utility choice.

RazFxx.6451:

This kind of beats the whole engine theme. But. What if, Instead of weapon swap, we get to use our swap slot as another utility slot?
It would fix having to sacrifice utilities for kits.. Especially now that we have more utility choice.

It would just end in people slotting another kit, upping our max skills from potentially 40 to 46 (or 47 if we also get a F6 toolbelt skill).

Arantheal.7396:

RazFxx.6451:

This kind of beats the whole engine theme. But. What if, Instead of weapon swap, we get to use our swap slot as another utility slot?
It would fix having to sacrifice utilities for kits.. Especially now that we have more utility choice.

It would just end in people slotting another kit, upping our max skills from potentially 40 to 46 (or 47 if we also get a F6 toolbelt skill).

Maybe limit the amount of kits you can equip? Meaning one in our new weaponswap slot, means one less in our utilities?

Arantheal.7396:

It would just end in people slotting another kit, upping our max skills from potentially 40 to 46 (or 47 if we also get a F6 toolbelt skill).

Personally, I already sick of using multiple kits and managing 40+ skills. It makes engineer gameplay very tedious and tiresome. That’s why I very fond of idea running with hammer + one swap (could be a kit). But also I would like to see a better synergy of scrapper trait line with other trait lines and skills.

I don’t see how being able to use my rifle with hammer waters the class down. Baseline engi, I don’t want or need weapon swap. The class was designed with medium range in mind from the jump. However scrapper is a whole new ball game. It’s the first time we are designed for melee, and I just think the option to swap to rifle would be interesting for build diversity. 3 of the rifle skills are melee anyway. If I could take rifle I’d use one less kit and one more gyro or elixer. I dunno, I just think the days of one weapon should be left in our 3 year past. Rev got weapon swap, think it’s time we did also

Imho, we should be overhauled and get normal weapon swap, a cooldown on kit swap and get all our utilities rebalanced (since they were all balanced toward a massive use and swap of kits – kits themselves included). Maybe do the same with the traits, too – some could even be removed to give some space to the other utility types. I mean, give some love to gadgets.

This makes it so any elite specialization we’ll have in the future won’t be weighted down by the mere existence of kits.

And then we can have an elite specialization focused on kits and properly balanced over their use.

I just want my speed boost back when swapping rifle for flamethrower.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

I just want my speed boost back when swapping rifle for flamethrower.

unless I missed something, that should be streamlined kits for you.
1st master trait in tools…

Weapon swap would be the actual nail in the coffin to the absolute and unbeatable necessity of kits in every build including Scrapper.

Considering our class mechanic is actually just the Toolbelt? It makes sense. But realistically I can see why Anet don’t want to balance that.

We sadly, and quite simply, are the one class that can, you know, bring more, no-cooldown weapons to the table. Not even attunements can forgo the cooldown (except for Fresh Air Ele, but exceptions just prove the rule).

Kits are a strength and add to the overall feeling of an engineer. And those long cooldowns on weapon swap, no thanks.

Helcor.9527:

Kits are a strength and add to the overall feeling of an engineer. And those long cooldowns on weapon swap, no thanks.

you know that 10 & 5sec weapon-swap cd’s are the standard for most classes, right?

Arantheal.7396:

Helcor.9527:

Kits are a strength and add to the overall feeling of an engineer. And those long cooldowns on weapon swap, no thanks.

you know that 10 & 5sec weapon-swap cd’s are the standard for most classes, right?

’tis pretty long compared to our bypassable one second.

Heck, I’d totally take a weapon swap on engineer with double the standard cooldown to make up for our toolbelt and kits.

+1: simple , doable, little move, huge change , do it!

Rocknull.2986:

+1: simple , doable, little move, huge change , do it!

still doesn’t removes the bad design of nades.

Still 10 times better than funcion gyro.
Gimme!

Miltek.2104:

Still 10 times better than funcion gyro.
Gimme!

fair enough

welp its official.

This is the we want weapon swap thread

Arantheal.7396:

Rocknull.2986:

+1: simple , doable, little move, huge change , do it!

still doesn’t removes the bad design of nades.

Well, I wouldn’t say nades are bad design. They are actually rather well designed.

The problem is that Anet refuses to give any autotargeted skill the same damage potential as these ground targeted babies – for good reason.

Another part of the problem is that they didn’t want Mortar to have comparable damage to grenades, because it has more range.

And the last but definitely not least part of the problem is that we don’t have a weapon swap that would allow us to skip having at least one kit. Because once we blow our damaging weapon skills, we are stuck with either our intentionally weak autoattacks, or luckily nowadays with the alternative of a mortar kit instead of supply crate.

Sold Out.7625:

Arantheal.7396:

Rocknull.2986:

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Well, I wouldn’t say nades are bad design. They are actually rather well designed.

Here you can read my detailed answer to this.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Hammer-damage/page/2#post5573705

I disagree. I like the function gyro.

Arantheal.7396:

Sold Out.7625:

Arantheal.7396:

Rocknull.2986:

-snip-

-snip-

Well, I wouldn’t say nades are bad design. They are actually rather well designed.

Here you can read my detailed answer to this.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Hammer-damage/page/2#post5573705

Your ‘answer’ lost me when you recommended turning kits into lesser attunements that need a utility slot.

Imho they should overhaul the class, give it a second weapon slot, put some kind of limitation to kit so that they aren’t anymore the be-all, end-all utility – be it a cooldown on swap or something else – and eventually rebalance things here and there after the changes.
And then make an elite specialization focused on kits. That will likely lose that second weapon slot, but has reduced cooldowns (that may be reduced further with a trait) and some kind of kit-related new mechanic, like “dropping” a kit to lend it to someone else for a limited time, for example.

Nope. I am against the weapon swap. I love my no cool down kit swapping. And I know if they gave us a weapon swap, they would force a sacrifice elsewhere. I hate to trust the same folks who thought we needed another set of AI utility skills with deciding what a reasonable sacrafice would be.

There are 5 and soon to be 6 other professions with weapon swaps. Your welcome to play one of those if a weapon swap is that important to you.

Well, it’s either that or continue with a botched design that wasn’t made to work with elite specializations.
If nothing changes, we’re doomed to rely on kits with whatever specialization we’ll ever get, since they need to balance everything over their use and forcing it in practice.
Thus making any new weapon or utilities irrelevant for the most part, whatever they may be. Gyros are mostly bad for themselves, okay, but it would have happened either way.

The current working and balancing of kits (and everything else over kit) would work better as an elite specialization, rather than as a part of the base engineer. So that we don’t have forced disadvantages for something technically optional, but we do get those disadvantages when we choose to have them the way they’re now.

I was not a fan of weapon swap for Engineer because of kits, something I enjoyed. If Engineer didn’t have kits then it would make a lot of sense. The lack of a weapon swap actually is a big reason why we get locked into kits IMHO. But then I played Scrapper without kits and felt like a warrior without weapon swap.

At one time I thought Revenant would get additional skills to select with each Legend since swapping Legends seemed to be analogous, but no other skills were announced so I can see the wisdom in adding weapon swapping for that class.

Since they did that, Revenant is a lot more complex to play which makes it interesting. If they added weapon swapping to Engineer, my interest level would increase with the complexity.

Considering every other Elite spec still has access to at least part of their core weapon set (ele gets a mainhand, everyone else gets at least a full set); and our new class mechanic has incredibly limited use in PvE, giving weapon swap to Scrapper might be a good idea to help us feel more rounded.

i cant understand how all these people dont like running lots of kits. I actually don’t like to play builds with less than two kits.

weapon swap would be nice, but not worth the nerfs. id rather not have to have a 10sec weapon swap cd & be nerfed.

choovanski.5462:

i cant understand how all these people dont like running lots of kits. I actually don’t like to play builds with less than two kits.

weapon swap would be nice, but not worth the nerfs. id rather not have to have a 10sec weapon swap cd & be nerfed.

Depends on how they introduce the changes.
True, just putting a 10sec cd on kit swapping would be a pretty heavy nerf, and asides from bombs & nades, there is no kit that allows you to camp in it without a pretty heavy dmg-loss.
Now if they would not only put a 10sec cd on each kit, but also buff their skills, including the AA, to make the time you have to spend in them viable, it suddenly doesn’t sound like a nerf, but a proper redesign.
And then we could also get a serious look into the rest of our utilities, and maybe even in the possibility of a weapon-swap mechanic, because they’re not constantly overshadowed anymore by the fact that we can have up to 40 skills available if we slot all kits.

The only thing that holds us back from getting some decently performing utilities and better AA’s is the fact that it is a nightmare to balance us, since the slightest touch on our kits or weapon-skills gets multiplied.
Nade-skills, that throw 3 grenades at the same time & therefore ridicule the explosives tree for any other explosives skill are really just the nutshell example of what kits, with zero swap-cd’s, do to the rest of the class.
The situation is actually so bad that we -rightfully- regard kits as our class-mechanic, rather than the toolbelt. We can’t come up with viable & meta-contesting builds without them, and if the solution simply were to nerf them into the ground to promote other skills more, we’d end up with extremely underpowered utilities all together. Our class is weak outside of kits, and the sad thing is:
It has to be weak.
Because of our readily-available skill-spam.
We can not have good burst skills on kits, because that would just end up in use doing nothing but cycling trough them. And the medium hitting ones we have are actually borderline OP already, because of their combined spamability.
This is why people argue that our hammer NEEDS to hit like a wet noodle. Any decent dmg buff to it would be a balancing-nightmare in kit-builds.

A-net already was going the easy way once when they were taking turrets out of our build-options, instead of reworking them properly.
So I rather advertise how a decent balance update to kits could look like, so the devs can finally balance our skills around their viability & not about how hard they would blow the class out of proportion if they were ever combined by kits.

Kits.
Our best utility, but also our worst enemy on the long-term development of this class.

Nope. Do not want weapon swap. The class doesn’t need it and that would cause all sorts of balance issues.

We already have all sort of balance issues, though – and due to kits.

Manuhell.2759:

We already have all sort of balance issues, though – and due to kits.

Right, and kits are effectively the class mechanic, so if those get nerfed we have a bit of a problem/revolt on our hands.

lorddarkflare.9186:

Right, and kits are effectively the class mechanic, so if those get nerfed we have a bit of a problem/revolt on our hands.

Better do it soon than later. Any elite spec they plan to do just further increases the amount of work they’ll have to do to rebalance all the utilities and weapons once kits are finally made as optional as they should be. Since right now anything must be balanced over the assumption of their use, and thus forcing their use instead.
And while you talk about nerfing, it’s just a matter of effectively rebalancing the whole class. Some things would be nerfed, others would be buffed.

Manuhell.2759:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Right, and kits are effectively the class mechanic, so if those get nerfed we have a bit of a problem/revolt on our hands.

Better do it soon than later. Any elite spec they plan to do just further increases the amount of work they’ll have to do to rebalance all the utilities and weapons once kits are finally made as optional as they should be. Since right now anything must be balanced over the assumption of their use, and thus forcing their use instead.
And while you talk about nerfing, it’s just a matter of effectively rebalancing the whole class. Some things would be nerfed, others would be buffed.

You misunderstand: It is too late.

That is such a huge shift and a massive betrayal from what that class has been for over three years.

Best approach now is to have each elite spec directly address the problem, each in their unique way. Or offer more competitive options (somehow). Or offer new kits.

Manuhell.2759:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Right, and kits are effectively the class mechanic, so if those get nerfed we have a bit of a problem/revolt on our hands.

Better do it soon than later. Any elite spec they plan to do just further increases the amount of work they’ll have to do to rebalance all the utilities and weapons once kits are finally made as optional as they should be. Since right now anything must be balanced over the assumption of their use, and thus forcing their use instead.
And while you talk about nerfing, it’s just a matter of effectively rebalancing the whole class. Some things would be nerfed, others would be buffed.

No, better to not do it at all. As I see it, this is a bad idea. So bad in my opinion, that I would rather see what the same dev team that thought we needed another AI utility set, can do to find a solution, rather then go with this profession crushing suggestion.

just because we get WS doesnt mean we need a nerf. Its not like we have a ton of weapons guys, getting rifle/hammer would just be like running another kit. It would just let us use, possibly, one less kit and open up A LOT more builds. thats all.

lorddarkflare.9186:

You misunderstand: It is too late.

That is such a huge shift and a massive betrayal from what that class has been for over three years.

We’ve been betrayed since the beginning then. We aren’t supposed to be dependant on kits. As if we were, those would have been our class mechanic, not an optional-but-actually-forced utility type.

lorddarkflare.9186:

Best approach now is to have each elite spec directly address the problem, each in their unique way. Or offer more competitive options (somehow). Or offer new kits.

Elite specs can’t do anything about it. They still offer whatever the base class does – thus kit included – but even if for some reason they excluded kits from a spec, all the rest of the utilities and weapons beside those of the spec would still be balanced over their existance.
And offering other kits just further exacerbate the issue.

dancingmonkey.4902:

No, better to not do it at all. As I see it, this is a bad idea. So bad in my opinion, that I would rather see what the same dev team that thought we needed another AI utility set, can do to find a solution, rather then go with this profession crushing suggestion.

The bad idea was to indulge with this design to begin with. Something optional can’t decide the balancing a whole class – that’s how a main mechanic is balanced, not one of many utility types.
And they can do so with a main mechanic because it isn’t optional at all, so you have both advantages and disadvantages together.
Whereas, by not using kits, we just have disadvantages and nothing to make up for them.
And until they fix this flawed design choice, we have no way to free ourselves from kits and a kit-based balancing. Whatever elite spec may come.

Actually weapon swap with kits while running scrapper would put on par with other elite specs i think

choovanski.5462:

i cant understand how all these people dont like running lots of kits. I actually don’t like to play builds with less than two kits.

weapon swap would be nice, but not worth the nerfs. id rather not have to have a 10sec weapon swap cd & be nerfed.

I would suggest the reason you don’t like to play builds with less than two kits is due to the lack of weapon swap. As others have pointed out here kits have become the de-facto class mechanic for Engineer. I like playing with kits too. If I’m not running kits, I feel extremely constrained in the same way everyone felt constrained when playing Revenant before it was given weapon swap. I’d just like to maybe be able to play Engineer without kits too sometime.

Why would kits need to be nerfed for weapon swap? I’m not seeing that. Adding weapon swap to Scrapper and playing it with kits would put Scrapper on par with Revenant in terms of complexity and interest.

It was something I considered.
Initially I thought it would be something Seeing as if they want us to use a full set of elite spec skills, we would need to sacrifice using kits.
An engineer with weapon swap and no kits would have just as many skills as revenant has after they got weapon swapping.
My idea is that they should give engineer weapons swap, but it gets disabled if they have any kits equipped in the utility slot.

I’m surprised how many people in here are honestly advocating for a weapon swap.

I don’t see it ever happening, and that’s fine by me. I don’t see a future in which we have no cooldown kits and weapon swap, so that choice is pretty easy for me to make.

Engi is simply balanced around kits and not weapon swap. Like it or leave it that’s just how it is.

here is a ideal for a future Elite Specialization for Engineer.

A Elite Specialization that provides a unique type of weapon swap.

1) Instead of Swapping Weapons, this Elite Specialization will swap the weapon skills.

2) Each Weapon Engineer can use, Pistol, Shield, Rifle, and Elite Spec Weapon, now have 2 sets of skills with one set being melee range combat and long range combat.

For example..

Rifle 2nd set of skill, when you swap the weapon skill, focus on melee range shots with the Auto attack being a cone shape short range AoE attack with this auto attack being considered as a Melee attack so it can’t be reflected.

3) Kits are changed into new skills that reflect the kit’s former function. Such as Grenade Kit becomes a simple Grenade Utility skill that allows this Engi Elite Spec to through 9 grenades, 3 Shrapnel, 3 freeze, and 3 Poison Grenades.

Flamethrower kit becomes a Utility skill that does a ground target AoE field skill that creates a Napalm AoE circle field that damages and cause burn condition every 1 second to all enemies in the area.