Guild Wars 2

First, I’ll start with why I think grenade kit should change: I feel that a ranged weapon should not do anywhere near as much damage as a melee weapon (or melee equivalent). Currently, grenades do almost as much personal damage as bombs, and more damage than toolkit. It is the top damage kit for group stuff, like dungeons. It is also annoying to use, as every skill is ground targeted, with no auto-attack.

The main source of the problem is the grenadier trait. It effectively boosts grenade damage by 50%, plus increasing the range. Every other kit only gets a 10% damage boost from traits.

So, my proposed fixes include:
•untraited grenades should only have a reduced range. you should not be able to throw something farther than you can shoot a gun. I’m thinking 750 range, at most.
•change grenadier to grenade launcher. with this trait selected, you still get the extra range, but its only one grenade that does damage equal to 10% more than the 2 grenades combined without the trait. The single grenade also travels faster.
•whether or not this changed trait offers ground targeting or auto-targeting is up for debate. They could even make it so just skill 1 is auto-targeted and the rest ground targeted.
•the way vuln is applied is also up for debate. I think the vuln should either have a greater duration, or stack 2-3 vuln per hit.
•toolkit needs to do more damage. this can be addressed by either directly increasing the damage per hit, or increasing the attack speed, or both. It should do more damage than grenades. Some people will argue that toolkit damage is fine because they feel it should only be used for utility (shield and pull). I counter this with the fact that bombs have blind, which is better for group support than the personal block from toolkit. While bombs are my favorite weapon, I feel that toolkit should actually do more damage because its attack range is more limited – bombs hit in a 360 degree radius and is great for kiting, toolkit only hits what is in front of you. I don’t, however, think bombs should be nerfed; rather, toolkit should be buffed.

I know this will never actually change because at least one ANet spokesperson (grouch) has stated that he loves grenades and doesn’t want anyone to touch the code for them. But, thought I’d put my opinion out there. Any thoughts, comments, or anything else you’d add to this?

I definitely agree that the Grenadier trait’s 50% increase is a problem – it gimps the base kit as a result of its effectiveness, and that’s ridiculous, even for a Grandmaster trait.

As for the proposed fixes, I…honestly don’t play enough to be able to give much input, anymore.

I do have to point out that the application of Vulnerability isn’t a Grenade Kit thing, but rather the result of the minor GM trait, so changing how it works could have unexpected effects.

Anymras.5729:

I do have to point out that the application of Vulnerability isn’t a Grenade Kit thing, but rather the result of the minor GM trait, so changing how it works could have unexpected effects.

It affects bombs (and mines?) also, I know. This would make bomb kit the better option for stack vuln, as bombs attack at a slightly faster rate than grenades. Another option is to leave the vuln stacking trait as it is, while buffing toolkit speed, making toolkit do just as much vuln, maybe even more, if its buffed enough.

Right now its good ballance between damage, flying speed and aiming. I think main problem is that players use nades on melee so no aim or flying time needed. Maybe simillar range dps boost based on range like mesmer GS 1?

The unreasonable comparing is wrong on so many levels.
Comparing bombs with bigger AoE, more targets to hit and undoubtly better survivability and CC to granades with possibly better damage and range – yeah, i’m sure that’s gonna work.

And @Rozbuska – how would you change dps based on range similar to mesmer/ranger? Decrease damage, yet keep granades harder to hit? Is that fair?

About traits – comparing to other traits boosting kits granadier sure might seem unfair, but nerfing granades overall isn’t key to solve it.

Lert.6287:

The unreasonable comparing is wrong on so many levels.
Comparing bombs with bigger AoE, more targets to hit and undoubtly better survivability and CC to granades with possibly better damage and range – yeah, i’m sure that’s gonna work.

for many situation, the effective damage radius is actually better for grenades because you can aim in front of you; with bombs, most of your blast radius is going into a wall. Once you trait the bomb blast radius, it is about equal in that case. Grenades actually hit more targets (both are 5 targets, but grenades are multiple hits at once, so 15 targets max). as far as survivability, bombs are better for group support, but for soloing, its often reversed – grenades offer better survivability simply because at long range, you can side step most attacks; also, while bombs offer a longer lasting blind field, grenades have blind on a shorter cooldown. The CC, you’re right about though; however, grenades have a higher damage toolbelt skill instead.

About traits – comparing to other traits boosting kits granadier sure might seem unfair, but nerfing granades overall isn’t key to solve it.

I feel that relying on grenades more than anything else is like a ranger relying mostly on bow, and we all know how people feel about that – the infamous bearbow. Also, should’ve mentioned before, but don’t grenades also get a damage boost from explosive powder? I do think grenades definitely need to be nerfed, maybe not by too much, if other kits are buffed. but, no ranged weapon should out damage a melee weapon.

Just by saying “no ranged weapon should out damage a melee weapon” there would have to be change to GS mesmer, Longbow ranger and heck – rifle warrior (because of kill shot). Not only granades.
Granades do get boost from Explosive Powder – but so do bombs and mines, and it requires taking this trait over other. It’s not granades-specific thing.
And what I meant with comparing was that we can compare only some aspects (like range, damage, cc etc.), eventually after pros and cons, but not the way you did.
Another thing is that granades are undoubtly harder to play (few topics begging granades to be AA and AT prove that) – played the right way should be more rewarding after all.

I just got another possible idea. Based on grenades being harder to play (that is only true as a ranged weapon, there is no extra skill involved for using them in melee). Keep most of their damage output, but put a minimum range on them – that means they can’t be used in melee range. Also, what I meant from them getting a boost from explosive powder is – that the damage boost from explosive powder is on top of the 50% boost from granadier.

Minimum range? That’s just silly. There’s nothing like that in whole game. And how do you think that would work? “Great, I just wasted nearly half of my trait points just to be unable to use granades when I need them”.

This whole thread just seems like “I don’t like to use grenades but I realize they’re the best so I want it changed so I don’t feel guilty about not using grenades”.

Lert.6287:

Minimum range? That’s just silly. There’s nothing like that in whole game. And how do you think that would work? “Great, I just wasted nearly half of my trait points just to be unable to use granades when I need them”.

There is actually one skill with a minimum range – the Mortar.

The point of the thread is that the grenadier trait is massively overpowered compared to traits for any other weapon (does any other class get a 50% damage boost from one trait?) and that melee weapons should do more damage than ranged weapons; in the very least, toolkit needs a major boost. bombs would do more damage compared to grenades if they always attacked at the speed they do under water (0.5 sec, which is what the tooltip says, they currently hit at every 0.84 sec, according to wiki).

Jerus.4350:

This whole thread just seems like “I don’t like to use grenades but I realize they’re the best so I want it changed so I don’t feel guilty about not using grenades”.

He just wants the 22min lupicus solo(LOL) with toolkit auto to be faster.

Engineer is a complex class indeed. Not many players are good enough to aim grenades or understand that the max dps rotation doesn’t involve only grenades but also blunderbuss,jump shot, flame blast, acid bomb, napalm. Grenade hits are skill shots and well..not everybody has them skills to land them shots.
Some just want to set the bomb/toolkit to auto and afk it away in their celestial gear with fortified turret traits.

But for us who not only don’t struggle with basic pve content but also pvp for aqua breathers and whatnot..nerfing grenades would hurt the engineer class a lot. It’s pretty obvious that engineers lack the sustain to be in melee all the time and also the chasing capabilities if their target decides to run away.
Don’t nerf grenades because people are too lazy to press a few buttons. This kills the class.

Rainmaker.7594:

The point of the thread is that the grenadier trait is massively overpowered compared to traits for any other weapon (does any other class get a 50% damage boost from one trait?) and that melee weapons should do more damage than ranged weapons; in the very least, toolkit needs a major boost. bombs would do more damage compared to grenades if they always attacked at the speed they do under water (0.5 sec, which is what the tooltip says, they currently hit at every 0.84 sec, according to wiki).

Even assuming granadier trait is overpowered – granades aren’t.
Well, thief has Hidden Killer and it can boost critical chance up to 6 times (16% is the very least having this trait and no items with precision).
Ranger has Trap Potency where conditions from traps last 100% longer.
Warrior has the traits that lengthens bleeding duration by 50%.
So the answer is yeah, in a way they have something that increases their potential in given aspect.

And why toolkit needs a major boost? It’s already best survivability kit. Adding insane damage on top of that would be… insane.

robertul.3679:

Jerus.4350:

This whole thread just seems like “I don’t like to use grenades but I realize they’re the best so I want it changed so I don’t feel guilty about not using grenades”.

He just wants the 22min lupicus solo(LOL) with toolkit auto to be faster.

that was my first full lupi solo. I am in full ascended assassin’s gear now, and one of my current goals is to beat lupi in under 10 min (off wall, still using the fortified turrets though; modified with bombs instead of rocket boots though, traits too). I don’t care too much about speed kills, so will be happy with 10 min kill. Just as I am happy having killed hunter/crusher legit in just over 5 min.

Engineer is a complex class indeed. Not many players are good enough to aim grenades or understand that the max dps rotation doesn’t involve only grenades but also blunderbuss,jump shot, flame blast, acid bomb, napalm. Grenade hits are skill shots and well..not everybody has them skills to land them shots.
Some just want to set the bomb/toolkit to auto and afk it away in their celestial gear with fortified turret traits.

I very well understand that dps requires skill rotations, which is part of the reason why I decided to go with strength runes and battle sigil. Alot of people think that force is a great sigil, but fact is that air is better against single targets (bosses) and fire is better against groups of enemies; and yes the damage bonus from sigil of strength is worse than air against single targets.

But for us who not only don’t struggle with basic pve content but also pvp for aqua breathers and whatnot..nerfing grenades would hurt the engineer class a lot. It’s pretty obvious that engineers lack the sustain to be in melee all the time and also the chasing capabilities if their target decides to run away.
Don’t nerf grenades because people are too lazy to press a few buttons. This kills the class.

Thats just another reason that they should separate the skill balance between PvE and PvP/WvW. We also have other range options that can work along side weakened grenades (which is supposed to be all about condi’s anyway, isn’t it?)

How are you figuring Air/Fire win out over Force?

Jerus.4350:

How are you figuring Air/Fire win out over Force?

He feels that.

And AFAIK ANet said they won’t separate skills/traits between PvE and WvW.

Another thing – where is it said that granades are supposed to be condi? Another thing based on your feelings?

No, and 50 %? Your math is terrible….

Nades are strong, true, but VERY predictable. Either in tight range after a successful disable, or at long range that are easy to dodge. Geez and the damage is EXTREMELY unreliable at anything above 600 range.

FYI
Nades : Power > Condi but ++ with Condi + power.

Rainmaker.7594:

words words words

First of all it’s hilarious how people reject the meta but slowly move towards it step by step.
Force is superior to both fire and air. Why do people run air/fire instead of force in pvp/wvw? Because unlike pve you can’t constantly hit your target.
Both grenade and bomb kits are suposed to be hybrid.
Bomb #1 scales purely with power while the rest(2 and 3) scale basically with condi. Grenades are a bit more power oriented but just a bit because of the bleeds.
There are no ranged options besides grenades unless you think elixir gun auto is strong enough.

I totally understand you hate grenades but asking for a nerf just because you dislike the kit is stupid.
Also, who said melee should always be more damage than ranged? Is that an unspoken
rule or something?

Balance doesn’t work that way. You have other things to consider too. Mainly the posibility of your skills to actually hit something, personal sustain in melee, the effectiveness of ranged vs melee skills and many other things.
Lets look at power ranger pvp version. They are strong at range because they are extremely weak in melee.

Grenades are ground targeted and don’t really hit anything at bigger ranges unless your target is forced to stay in a certain area(the node). They also don’t elicit enough pressure by themselves and require 6 points to make them viable because without grenadier they are literally useless.

Oh and nobody balances the game around pve lol. Otherwise necro wouldn’t be useless in pve for over 2 years or whatever the age of the game is.

bomb does more dmg than nades in meele tho, just dont stack vuln so well…

somoene had done the maths w cast time + dmg or something.. !

I was under the impression that when the math was done that grenade kit was higher personal dps potential than bombkit, it was only the skill1’s where bombkit outdamages grenadekit. So when doing full rotations grenades win out.

And, I think it’s a good point mentioning the travel time and spread at longer ranges, yes it’s a range weapon, that is lower damage at range, but in melee it’s nice. Sounds about right.

The idea of Melee > Range is based around the idea that there should be a risk v reward. If you are at less risk you get less reward, and that is the case here in that when you back to range (having less risk) your damage goes down (less reward) is it not?

Jerus.4350:

How are you figuring Air/Fire win out over Force?

Sigil of Air is basically another attack (coefficient of 1.1) every 3 seconds. Force is 5% boost. Rough math would say you would need to attack 20 times in 3 seconds for force to be better (20×5=100=1 additional attacks worth of damage), but of course you need to take into account that air is actually procing about every 4.5 seconds, and force is also boosting your burst skills, so I’d estimate you’d actually need to do about 15-18 attacks in 4.5 seconds for force to be better, so air is only marginally better, and only against single targets. Its worth it to me, because the main focus of my build is killing bosses. For trash mobs, yeah force is much better. But, I don’t have the time nor desire to do the full math. Others have stated the same thing before me in other posts, so I’m not stating anything new about sigils and don’t need to defend my sigil choice any further.

robertul.3679

blah 22min lupicus solo blah blah

new lupi video uploading now. Got my sub 10 min kill. I’m happy with it. Its not a speed kill (wasn’t going for/not going to go for a speed kill), but its good enough for me. It is uploading now. Its still using fortified turrets and off wall, but with bombs instead of rocket boots, and traits changed appropriately. I’ll update this post with a link when I get home from work later tonight.

update: video dedicated to robertul for his kind words of encouragement regarding my first solo. (actually this has been on my list of thing to do, but probably would’ve been longer before I did it, if not for his mocking)
http://youtu.be/nd7ZQJ7aPlc

Jerus.4350:

I was under the impression that when the math was done that grenade kit was higher personal dps potential than bombkit, it was only the skill1’s where bombkit outdamages grenadekit. So when doing full rotations grenades win out.

And, I think it’s a good point mentioning the travel time and spread at longer ranges, yes it’s a range weapon, that is lower damage at range, but in melee it’s nice. Sounds about right.

The idea of Melee > Range is based around the idea that there should be a risk v reward. If you are at less risk you get less reward, and that is the case here in that when you back to range (having less risk) your damage goes down (less reward) is it not?

I see your point, and you’re right – I mostly just hate using grenades with their current design. But, don’t you agree, that with the whole risk vs reward thing, bombs and toolkit should do a little more damage than grenades (since grenades have a range option, even it its only good at <500 range), taking everything into account (all that extra bleed and burst damage from grenades)? Rather than nerfing grenades, how about buffing bombs and toolkit (maybe toolkit, only if they ever decide to separate skills in PvE from PvP/WvW, because people said it would be overpowered). Either way, I think a grenade launcher trait would be cool (at a lower trait tier though). Maybe make grenades default to 3 grenades so the current trait isn’t needed.

Doesn’t Air not crit? that’d lower it’s damage potential quite a bit.

And, it’s not about purely attacks, it’s about coefficients. Acid bomb has a high coefficient, it alone would count for like 5 Airs… even more if you consider the critting issue.

Yeah it seems like toolkit/bombkit should be more, but honestly they have their purposes so, well, it could be worse. At least they’re used.

Wait a sec. Where do you pull that 50%? Out of where? Oh wait.

No seriously, Grenadier boost the dmg by 33% on all your grenade, except your burst grenade barrage, that get boosted by 16%.

‘’no ranged weapon should out damage a melee weapon’’ Guardian sceptre on Lupi or Bloomhunger and Staff Ele say HELLO

Nades are not a range weapon if you use them in melee and if you use them in range, they won’t have as much dmg as bomb. You lose on boons and it’s harder to land all your nades.

I hate these – I don’t like ‘’insert thing’‘, pls nerf ’’insert thing – post.

Thaddeus.4891:

Wait a sec. Where do you pull that 50%? Out of where? Oh wait.

No seriously, Grenadier boost the dmg by 33% on all your grenade, except your burst grenade barrage, that get boosted by 16%.

‘’no ranged weapon should out damage a melee weapon’’ Guardian sceptre on Lupi or Bloomhunger and Staff Ele say HELLO

Nades are not a range weapon if you use them in melee and if you use them in range, they won’t have as much dmg as bomb. You lose on boons and it’s harder to land all your nades.

I hate these – I don’t like ‘’insert thing’‘, pls nerf ’’insert thing – post.

2 grenades → 3 grenades is a 50% increase. 3 grenades → 2 grenades is a 33% decrease.

Or am I crazy and bad at math today?

Jerus.4350:

2 grenades -> 3 grenades is a 50% increase. 3 grenades -> 2 grenades is a 33% decrease.
Or am I crazy and bad at math today?

Ok you are right. Its a 50% increase in dmg and the third grenade count as 33% of your dps.

Thaddeus.4891:

Nades are not a range weapon if you use them in melee and if you use them in range, they won’t have as much dmg as bomb. You lose on boons and it’s harder to land all your nades.

I do not think melee and range means what you think it means.

A melee weapon set is one that is clearly designed to be used in melee range only. Bombs have literally no range, and therefor are by default, a melee weapon set.

Grenades have a range of up to 1500. simply because you can use them at a lesser range, does not change the fact that they are a ranged weapon set. Anyone one who directly claims “Nades are not a range weapon” is very misinformed in my opinion.

As well, I feel you have no comprehension of the profession as a whole if you are going to sit here and claim that landing grenade attacks are more difficult then landing bomb attacks.

I do not mind that the OP made a thread to air his opinion, how ever misguided I feel it might be. What I mind about the OP is that he is airing in inaccurate and uninformed opinion. As I see, you have no business starting a new thread to cry about a subject you do not understand.

Rainmaker.7594:

•untraited grenades should only have a reduced range. you should not be able to throw something farther than you can shoot a gun.

Really? this your your path of logic? So your okay with the fact that professions can clone themselves instantly, wave a stick and call down a meteor shower, or lay down bombs at their own feet, and only have them damage others? Can you be any more disingenuously hypocritical then trying to justify real world physics to a fantasy game?

coglin.1867:

I do not think melee and range means what you think it means.

A melee weapon set is one that is clearly designed to be used in melee range only. Bombs have literally no range, and therefor are by default, a melee weapon set.

Grenades have a range of up to 1500. simply because you can use them at a lesser range, does not change the fact that they are a ranged weapon set. Anyone one who directly claims “Nades are not a range weapon” is very misinformed in my opinion.

As well, I feel you have no comprehension of the profession as a whole if you are going to sit here and claim that landing grenade attacks are more difficult then landing bomb attacks.

Try to read the sentence in whole pls. So I have no comprehension of the profession as a whole when I say that landing grenade attack from range than bomb? Bomb you press you skill, grenade at range you click your skills and aim. At best (if the target don’t move) it’s almost exactly as difficult (which mean not at all), if the target move then ya of course landing grenade is harder than bomb. My guess is that you simply ready my sentence and tough I was simply saying that landing grenade was harder than bomb all the time, which is not what I said. Is it only a misunderstood between us or do think that landing grenade on a moving target have zero added difficulty?

Ya I know its a range weapon. I’m just saying that you can’t argue that this weapon should have less dmg than a melee simply because its a range weapon. Maybe I didn’t explained myself clearly. What I meant was : With nade in melee range the argument that melee weapons should have more dmg than range don’t work because the risk vs reward. The risk is as great with nade in melee as in any melee. Nade is different because when you get in range, it get harder to hit your target if he’s moving.

Thaddeus.4891:

I’m just saying that you can’t argue that this weapon should have less dmg than a melee simply because its a range weapon.

Actually you can. You keep making definitive claims on matters of opinion.

The bad part is that I do not disagree with you. I still feel that bomb Auto attack should have a 10%-20% damage increase do to the risk/reward difference. The difference is that I have more sense then to claim “you can’t argue that this weapon should have less dmg” because to me that is an disjointed as claiming to forbid someone from having a differing opinion.

Similarly I dislike the cool down ratios when compared to functionality between the two. I think smoke bomb should have a native 20s cool down, Concussive bomb should have a native 15s cooldown.

All they need to do is increase projectile fly speed, maybe in 2 times...

Why you waste 6 trait points and 1 utility slot for some extra defense in phase2 is too hard to comprehend for me. But that’s totally off topic.
On topic: grenades need buffs. Like some torment, burn.

robertul.3679:

Why you waste 6 trait points and 1 utility slot for some extra defense in phase2 is too hard to comprehend for me. But that’s totally off topic.
On topic: grenades need buffs. Like some torment, burn.

actually, its for phase 2 and 3. reflecting rapid fire (even though turrets can’t crit) does alot of damage, and is more interesting than cheesing the fight by pushing him into the wall so he can’t use it.
I’m all for giving grenades more condis, in exchange for the huge burst damage from 2&4 (grenade barrage is fine though). Not saying get rid of the direct damage all together, but for extra condi output (and extra damage from modified ammo), reduce the burst somewhat.

I still don’t see why grenades have to change, they’re fine. I really don’t think Engi’s need an overall nerf and that’s what a nerf would do. I’d rather see a boost to some of the other skills on Bombkit so the rotation in that is more solid (the 1 skill already has a higher coefficient if I understand correctly). Toolkit is IMO fine as it’s a toolkit, not a Wrenchkit, it’s a utility option and it fills that role nicely already.

But, I will say that’s a cool solo, I enjoy seeing different approaches. Sure may not be the fastest but it’s a unique take and still plenty fast. I’ve been wondering if I could pull off an offwall with Engi. Didn’t look like you used energy sigil, I was thinking just use shield with an energy sigil and could probably have enough dodges/blocks to get through (Vigor + Energy + Toolkit + Shield and maybe even toss in something else)

Anyone tried shield4 against the rapid fire? I assume the missed projectiles will still hurt you with splash damage but I haven’t tried it.

Thanks for the compliment. I tried shield4 once awhile ago, but from what I remember, it didn’t seem to block any of the damage (I died to the phase 2 AOE). I was incapable of even conceiving soloing Lupi back then though, and with the skill changes, who knows. The only thing I don’t like about shield is the long cooldowns. Its worth a try though.
My sigils were air and battle. Invigorating speed + infused precision = 100% vigor uptime. But, if you use energy sigil, you can use some more dps traits.
Good luck if you decide to solo Lupi off wall.
Oh yeah, one other note that you might wanna know… if you get bubbled in phase 3, rifle4 can blow you out of it. It takes a little practice to effectively pull off though.

Rainmaker.7594:

Thanks for the compliment. I tried shield4 once awhile ago, but from what I remember, it didn’t seem to block any of the damage (I died to the phase 2 AOE). I was incapable of even conceiving soloing Lupi back then though, and with the skill changes, who knows. The only thing I don’t like about shield is the long cooldowns. Its worth a try though.
My sigils were air and battle. Invigorating speed + infused precision = 100% vigor uptime. But, if you use energy sigil, you can use some more dps traits.
Good luck if you decide to solo Lupi off wall.
Oh yeah, one other note that you might wanna know… if you get bubbled in phase 3, rifle4 can blow you out of it. It takes a little practice to effectively pull off though.

Neat, yeah I’ve only used shield, to be honest I’ve always gone pretty defensive against him using all 4 of those options, even taking elixir S for my first two times (saved me from a bubble first go around). You can get out of a bubble with a well timed dodge and stunbreak too as the knock back inside doesn’t happen instantly you can dodge and stunbreak and land outside, though I haven’t gotten the timing down consistently yet.

I’ve been working on getting Ele down (gotten war/thief/engi/guard sof ar) but may give that up to get an offwall. That rapid fire is just such a pain with it’s lack of defining tell.

how about we just let it be as it is , and dont change anything :O

What mode are we talking about here? I can definitely tell you that changing grenades to a “grenade launcher” that fires grenades that travel super fast would probably be a buff to Engineers in PvP. Anyone not close to the grenades are able to dodge them easily. In zerging and PvE, it’d be nerf.

But honestly saying ranged shouldn’t do as much damage as melee is kind of silly. Just look at Staff Elementalist in Dungeons – does more damage than D/F does since Lava Font is so good at might stacking, and it’s ranged, and it doesn’t even have to ever leave Fire Attunement. And there’s Scepter + LH, but I’m not counting that since LH is melee. In PvP Warrior with Longbow can do more damage than lot of weapons (including Greatsword but that’s because Rush is broken; also assuming the enemy won’t let you land Hundred Blades for more than a hit or two), see the Shoutbow build.

Keep in mind the nature of balance between the modes of play. Any buff to Toolkit, while probably positive and not OP in PvE, is going to be massively OP in PvP. Toolkit’s pull and Pry Bar is a huge source of burst. You can even play an assassin Engineer by stealthing, pulling, Pry Bar, Rifle 5, Blunderbuss, and knockback on a power rifle build; this will down a squishier class right away if they don’t manage to avoid it. It has incredibly strong burst and any buff would just make it ridiculous in PvP.