Guild Wars 2

in light of how people have reacted to this ive decided id just do a nice write up for about how this will destroy engineers in roaming/dueling in WvW.

first ill post a build that i would run on my mesmer in the event they got torment on the scepter auto.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpBtlpxRNcrNSpxY6fy5GSGQFl8kyB-TVSEABIoEUG1fAw83I6DMe/BHOEAM8EACS5XznAASBAx0I-w

first thing ill point out is the 100% torment duration that will make the scepter auto and clones do 4 second torments and the last hit on the chain 8 seconds, provided to eat every hit from 3 scepter clones and the mesmers auto you will have 7-11 torment on you at all times that is around 650-1070 damage standing still and 1300-2100 damage while moving, doing some tests in the mists i found the bleeds from clones hitting crits bounced anywhere from 0-8 so we will say 3 bleeds on average from clones attacking you, that adds around another 350 damage, so we all know we wont be sitting still eating all those attacks and we will be dodging and blocking so lets say 3 bleeds and 6 torment just from the mesmer attacking, thats 1k+ damage a second without blowing any cds from the mesmers part, alright we all know the mesmer isnt just going to stand around auto attacking, so he dosent do any auto attacking at all, that’s still 1k damage from conditions your taking and he still has alot of things left to use

so here is how a fight with one of these mesmers would go or rather what i would do as a mesmer when i see an engineer.

you see each other and you magnet him, everyone dodges the opening magnet these days so 1 clone is down (lucky if your not in combat yet), now 2 things can happen from here, you charge in trying to make use of bombs or make it easier to land nades which is bad because you risk taking condis from killing clones or you sit back and range him, you can throw nades but at range are easy to avoid and nades are the only thing you have that could out do his damage at range, remember he only needs scepter clones out to do more damage then any ranged engineer auto attack and killing the clones leaves the mesmer free to spam his auto which means more damage then the clones, the fights just started and your at a massive disadvantage because he can much more easily apply damage at range (ip has a good chance of hitting clones) and getting in close could be disastrous you could use shield 4# but when he sees it he can just dodge the only 2 bolts that would get reflected and make more clones while hes at it, now your low on health because you cant beat on him as well as he can beat on you so you pop your healing turret (this is when id rocket boots and gtfo but incase you dont)now as a mesmer i would pop torch 4 run next to you activate scepter 2# and run over a bomb or land mine that you cant not plant and then teleport away and scepter 3# what are you going to do? cant clear them conditions and even if you do try to counter attack me i have way to much escape for you to finish me.

okay so your only real options here are fight and hope hes really bad or run away and find something else to fight but ive got some bad news, the builds so easy every tryhard roamer has just bandwagoned to mesmer condi pu because its really easy to play so everywhere you turn there’s another condi pu mesmer and the build can be very cheap to setup (karma anyone?), and everything else is now running as cheesiest as possible to keep up with it, so i plan to quit roaming on my engineer (outside of trolling) if mesmers get torment on scepter auto.

Added* the price of torment runes is pritty high, i would just buy gems because thats how i pvp so much but other people are probly just going to run undead or something cheap.

I won’t.

15 chars

It’s not like anyone solo roams anymore anyway, other than condi thieves and PU mesmers. The occasional warrior

I’ll see how they like my new flamethrower while they’re in stealth. >:)

I have fun on my engineer. I did not let the height of hambow OP change that. I did not let the perplexity use change that. I do not let stealth abuse thieves change that.

I do not back down from a challenge, and frankly ukuni, I find it a bit of a let down that you do. What is the most concerning, is to see you make the first chicken little, the sky is falling, post directed at engineers specifically.

dancingmonkey.4902:

I have fun on my engineer. I did not let the height of hambow OP change that. I did not let the perplexity use change that. I do not let stealth abuse thieves change that.

I do not back down from a challenge, and frankly ukuni, I find it a bit of a let down that you do. What is the most concerning, is to see you make the first chicken little, the sky is falling, post directed at engineers specifically.

don’t act like this isn’t a stupid buff for mesmers

edit* we all know what buff I’m talking about, the rest are good and fine imo.

Its absolutely absured condi pu mesmer is face roll to play and is so strong already. Add torment to mes auto +clones applying torment is just crazy!!

ukuni.8745:

dancingmonkey.4902:

I have fun on my engineer. I did not let the height of hambow OP change that. I did not let the perplexity use change that. I do not let stealth abuse thieves change that.

I do not back down from a challenge, and frankly ukuni, I find it a bit of a let down that you do. What is the most concerning, is to see you make the first chicken little, the sky is falling, post directed at engineers specifically.

don’t act like this isn’t a stupid buff for mesmers

edit* we all know what buff I’m talking about, the rest are good and fine imo.

Actually, not all of us do. Not everyone watched the thing, for one reason or another, and not everybody knows what buffs would be most valuable for Mesmers.
So, what’s even causing this uproar here, for those like me, who actually don’t know?

Anymras.5729:

ukuni.8745:

dancingmonkey.4902:

I have fun on my engineer. I did not let the height of hambow OP change that. I did not let the perplexity use change that. I do not let stealth abuse thieves change that.

I do not back down from a challenge, and frankly ukuni, I find it a bit of a let down that you do. What is the most concerning, is to see you make the first chicken little, the sky is falling, post directed at engineers specifically.

don’t act like this isn’t a stupid buff for mesmers

edit* we all know what buff I’m talking about, the rest are good and fine imo.

Actually, not all of us do. Not everyone watched the thing, for one reason or another, and not everybody knows what buffs would be most valuable for Mesmers.
So, what’s even causing this uproar here, for those like me, who actually don’t know?

mesmers are getting torment on there scepter auto, its not very strong by its self, but in the grand scheme of things yea a bit over the top

Well I’d say with that buff, condi-Mesmers are at least a viable option for WvW-roaming again. The buff actually brings them to a more equal level with Engineers in terms of condi-application.

Also, if you’re so desperate thinking about buffed Mesmers… what about condi-Necros then? Why didn’t you already quit Engineer due to them existing? Or P/D-Thieves. Or other condi-Engineers (especially, but not only, those using perplexity-runes). Cause they all apply WAY more condis than Mesmers currently. Heck, even condi-Warriors do it better. Well, everyone does it better except Guardians (and maybe Eles). At least they will be kinda equal after the next patch.

mesmers cant chase

Take utility goggles and watch them melt to your superior conditions. If they happen to survive they’ll probably run away. Either way they can’t chase. I will feel sorry for classes who lack forced revealed though

Saturn.6591:

Well I’d say with that buff, condi-Mesmers are at least a viable option for WvW-roaming again. The buff actually brings them to a more equal level with Engineers in terms of condi-application.

Also, if you’re so desperate thinking about buffed Mesmers… what about condi-Necros then? Why didn’t you already quit Engineer due to them existing? Or P/D-Thieves. Or other condi-Engineers (especially, but not only, those using perplexity-runes). Cause they all apply WAY more condis than Mesmers currently. Heck, even condi-Warriors do it better. Well, everyone does it better except Guardians (and maybe Eles). At least they will be kinda equal after the next patch.

What the heck you been living under a rock?Condi pu mesmer beats almost everything. It already has good condition pressure. Less than engi or necro but there survivability is through the roof and its easy as hell to play no risk what so ever that is a big problem.

ukuni.8745:

dancingmonkey.4902:

I have fun on my engineer. I did not let the height of hambow OP change that. I did not let the perplexity use change that. I do not let stealth abuse thieves change that.

I do not back down from a challenge, and frankly ukuni, I find it a bit of a let down that you do. What is the most concerning, is to see you make the first chicken little, the sky is falling, post directed at engineers specifically.

don’t act like this isn’t a stupid buff for mesmers

edit* we all know what buff I’m talking about, the rest are good and fine imo.

No one said it isn’t a bad buff, it is just not nearly as bad in my opinion as making a knee jerk reaction thread in which you imply you will abandon the profession, and go out of your way to word the OP in a way that is not conducive to an actual discussion.

All I am reading is “well I am taking my ball and going home……….”

dancingmonkey.4902:

ukuni.8745:

dancingmonkey.4902:

I have fun on my engineer. I did not let the height of hambow OP change that. I did not let the perplexity use change that. I do not let stealth abuse thieves change that.

I do not back down from a challenge, and frankly ukuni, I find it a bit of a let down that you do. What is the most concerning, is to see you make the first chicken little, the sky is falling, post directed at engineers specifically.

don’t act like this isn’t a stupid buff for mesmers

edit* we all know what buff I’m talking about, the rest are good and fine imo.

No one said it isn’t a bad buff, it is just not nearly as bad in my opinion as making a knee jerk reaction thread in which you imply you will abandon the profession, and go out of your way to word the OP in a way that is not conducive to an actual discussion.

All I am reading is “well I am taking my ball and going home……….”

im just really not happy with an already strong build that will become very common if this buff goes threw that will be extreamly effective versus engineers, our multikit builds dont have the condition removal to handle a constant flow of torment and bleeds and not to mention the other conditions they will be droping on us, and our HGH build well it might last longer but its not like youll be able to run away.

ehhh roaming is a hard experience in my tier and i don’t want it get worse then it currently is but if they do get it ill probly swap to a different class because not being able to outplay to win will just feel terrible.

ukuni.8745:

dancingmonkey.4902:

ukuni.8745:

dancingmonkey.4902:

I have fun on my engineer. I did not let the height of hambow OP change that. I did not let the perplexity use change that. I do not let stealth abuse thieves change that.

I do not back down from a challenge, and frankly ukuni, I find it a bit of a let down that you do. What is the most concerning, is to see you make the first chicken little, the sky is falling, post directed at engineers specifically.

don’t act like this isn’t a stupid buff for mesmers

edit* we all know what buff I’m talking about, the rest are good and fine imo.

No one said it isn’t a bad buff, it is just not nearly as bad in my opinion as making a knee jerk reaction thread in which you imply you will abandon the profession, and go out of your way to word the OP in a way that is not conducive to an actual discussion.

All I am reading is “well I am taking my ball and going home……….”

im just really not happy with an already strong build that will become very common if this buff goes threw that will be extreamly effective versus engineers, our multikit builds dont have the condition removal to handle a constant flow of torment and bleeds and not to mention the other conditions they will be droping on us, and our HGH build well it might last longer but its not like youll be able to run away.

ehhh roaming is a hard experience in my tier and i don’t want it get worse then it currently is but if they do get it ill probly swap to a different class because not being able to outplay to win will just feel terrible.

I do not disagree with any of that, and this would have been a great first post for the OP rather then getting a bit overly dramatic. Which was the point of my criticism in how the thread started.

More OP they are more cry will be after we kill them. I love mesmer tears they are pink:-P

vincecontix.1264:

Saturn.6591:

Well I’d say with that buff, condi-Mesmers are at least a viable option for WvW-roaming again. The buff actually brings them to a more equal level with Engineers in terms of condi-application.

Also, if you’re so desperate thinking about buffed Mesmers… what about condi-Necros then? Why didn’t you already quit Engineer due to them existing? Or P/D-Thieves. Or other condi-Engineers (especially, but not only, those using perplexity-runes). Cause they all apply WAY more condis than Mesmers currently. Heck, even condi-Warriors do it better. Well, everyone does it better except Guardians (and maybe Eles). At least they will be kinda equal after the next patch.

What the heck you been living under a rock?Condi pu mesmer beats almost everything. It already has good condition pressure. Less than engi or necro but there survivability is through the roof and its easy as hell to play no risk what so ever that is a big problem.

Uhm…

1. Don’t kill the clones while standing next to them (ignore them or kill them from range)
2. Don’t attack while the Mesmer is blocking with Scepter
3. Dodge Scepter 3, which has a loooooooooong windup animation
4. If you should get hit by Scepter 3, don’t attack through confusion
5. Win
6. If things go bad for some odd reason, just run away

I’ve actually been roaming with a PU-build for some time, and I’ve found that 80% of all roamers simply can’t be killed with it because they’re not stupid enough to keep killing the clones while standing next to them. In reality, most of them actually know to follow ALL the points I’ve listed above, and they do it well. So either it ended up as a tie, or I died eventually because Mesmer condition removal isn’t that great either. Or they simply ran away. That’s why I’ve eventually switched to Staff/GS zerker shatter, and I’ve found that it’s actually easier to kill people with this build despite being so glassy and despite me still missing too many of my shatters.

Edit: Maybe it would be reasonable to halve the torment-duration of the Scepter-AA (and also of the clones). We’re gonna find out once the patch goes live I guess. But that doesn’t change that condi-Mesmer needed a buff to become viable.

insanemaniac.2456:

mesmers cant chase

Mesmers cant chase, but with the torment you also won’t be able to run away

Carpboy.7145:

insanemaniac.2456:

mesmers cant chase

Mesmers cant chase, but with the torment you also won’t be able to run away

how will they hit you with it after you leap away to 1500 range

vincecontix.1264:

Saturn.6591:

Well I’d say with that buff, condi-Mesmers are at least a viable option for WvW-roaming again. The buff actually brings them to a more equal level with Engineers in terms of condi-application.

Also, if you’re so desperate thinking about buffed Mesmers… what about condi-Necros then? Why didn’t you already quit Engineer due to them existing? Or P/D-Thieves. Or other condi-Engineers (especially, but not only, those using perplexity-runes). Cause they all apply WAY more condis than Mesmers currently. Heck, even condi-Warriors do it better. Well, everyone does it better except Guardians (and maybe Eles). At least they will be kinda equal after the next patch.

What the heck you been living under a rock?Condi pu mesmer beats almost everything. It already has good condition pressure. Less than engi or necro but there survivability is through the roof and its easy as hell to play no risk what so ever that is a big problem.

oh right, and now for what i really wanted to say:
pu builds exist to distract you while you kill yourself. if a mesmer has pu and you died to him, you let him kill you. it isnt the pu trash that can actually kill you on their own without your help, its the phant or shatter variants, and those are the ones you should be afraid of.

but mesmers are terribad are chasing.

Saturn.6591:

vincecontix.1264:

Saturn.6591:

Well I’d say with that buff, condi-Mesmers are at least a viable option for WvW-roaming again. The buff actually brings them to a more equal level with Engineers in terms of condi-application.

Also, if you’re so desperate thinking about buffed Mesmers… what about condi-Necros then? Why didn’t you already quit Engineer due to them existing? Or P/D-Thieves. Or other condi-Engineers (especially, but not only, those using perplexity-runes). Cause they all apply WAY more condis than Mesmers currently. Heck, even condi-Warriors do it better. Well, everyone does it better except Guardians (and maybe Eles). At least they will be kinda equal after the next patch.

What the heck you been living under a rock?Condi pu mesmer beats almost everything. It already has good condition pressure. Less than engi or necro but there survivability is through the roof and its easy as hell to play no risk what so ever that is a big problem.

Uhm…

1. Don’t kill the clones while standing next to them (ignore them or kill them from range)
2. Don’t attack while the Mesmer is blocking with Scepter
3. Dodge Scepter 3, which has a loooooooooong windup animation
4. If you should get hit by Scepter 3, don’t attack through confusion
5. Win
6. If things go bad for some odd reason, just run away
.

thats quite a manual, do you actually now what mesmers do fighting against us?
They press 1-5 switch weapon and repeat. Jes thats really it. BTW i have all classes 80 and roamed alot on engi, mesmer, ele, warrior. Your post is actually a troll post and you know it. What youre saying is basicly dont attack at all, dodge, dont kill clones/phatasms. Please show me evidence how you kill even a bad mesmer by using this tactic. Im pretty sure you skip 1-5 …

insanemaniac.2456:

oh right, and now for what i really wanted to say:
pu builds exist to distract you while you kill yourself. if a mesmer has pu and you died to him, you let him kill you. it isnt the pu trash that can actually kill you on their own without your help, its the phant or shatter variants, and those are the ones you should be afraid of.

but mesmers are terribad are chasing.

I have some news for you, there are alot situations in this game where you dont want to run away because you will loose a point/camp…..

Actualy that torment on scepter is good for engi because its projectile not like other mesmers attack and we can very easily reflect all back and let mesmer kill himself:-)

no its not because the crowd of awesome ubercool engis since day 1 like me are playing rifle end of discussion.

Saturn.6591:

vincecontix.1264:

Saturn.6591:

Well I’d say with that buff, condi-Mesmers are at least a viable option for WvW-roaming again. The buff actually brings them to a more equal level with Engineers in terms of condi-application.

Also, if you’re so desperate thinking about buffed Mesmers... what about condi-Necros then? Why didn’t you already quit Engineer due to them existing? Or P/D-Thieves. Or other condi-Engineers (especially, but not only, those using perplexity-runes). Cause they all apply WAY more condis than Mesmers currently. Heck, even condi-Warriors do it better. Well, everyone does it better except Guardians (and maybe Eles). At least they will be kinda equal after the next patch.

What the heck you been living under a rock?Condi pu mesmer beats almost everything. It already has good condition pressure. Less than engi or necro but there survivability is through the roof and its easy as hell to play no risk what so ever that is a big problem.

Uhm...

1. Don’t kill the clones while standing next to them (ignore them or kill them from range)
2. Don’t attack while the Mesmer is blocking with Scepter
3. Dodge Scepter 3, which has a loooooooooong windup animation
4. If you should get hit by Scepter 3, don’t attack through confusion
5. Win
6. If things go bad for some odd reason, just run away

I’ve actually been roaming with a PU-build for some time, and I’ve found that 80% of all roamers simply can’t be killed with it because they’re not stupid enough to keep killing the clones while standing next to them. In reality, most of them actually know to follow ALL the points I’ve listed above, and they do it well. So either it ended up as a tie, or I died eventually because Mesmer condition removal isn’t that great either. Or they simply ran away. That’s why I’ve eventually switched to Staff/GS zerker shatter, and I’ve found that it’s actually easier to kill people with this build despite being so glassy and despite me still missing too many of my shatters.

Edit: Maybe it would be reasonable to halve the torment-duration of the Scepter-AA (and also of the clones). We’re gonna find out once the patch goes live I guess. But that doesn’t change that condi-Mesmer needed a buff to become viable.

Condition memser is already strong old video of mine non pu condition mesmer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PLs0cReY9A I was running no pu coz these thiefs where complaining about it. Run pu condition mesmer I can beat people with my eyes closed. It to rewarding for the effort put into playing it and should not be buff or made meta people think warrior is faceroll pu condition mesmer is worse.

After patch mesmers and thief will not be a problem for engi… Or at least for the ones who can read the patch notes.

Kontrolle.3514:

Saturn.6591:

Uhm…

1. Don’t kill the clones while standing next to them (ignore them or kill them from range)
2. Don’t attack while the Mesmer is blocking with Scepter
3. Dodge Scepter 3, which has a loooooooooong windup animation
4. If you should get hit by Scepter 3, don’t attack through confusion
5. Win
6. If things go bad for some odd reason, just run away
.

thats quite a manual, do you actually now what mesmers do fighting against us?
They press 1-5 switch weapon and repeat. Jes thats really it. BTW i have all classes 80 and roamed alot on engi, mesmer, ele, warrior. Your post is actually a troll post and you know it. What youre saying is basicly dont attack at all, dodge, dont kill clones/phatasms. Please show me evidence how you kill even a bad mesmer by using this tactic. Im pretty sure you skip 1-5 …

If one of us two is trolling here, then it’s definitely you. It’s WAY easier to fight a PU-Mesmer (current state) than fighting a condi-Engineer. Because if you want a “tl;dr” for that “quite a manual” (I wonder how the heck you are able to play Engi, cause even just playing Engi requires to know a “manual” that’s like 20 times as long lol), then that would be “ignore the clones and pay attention to blocks and long windups on the mesmer”, which really isn’t that hard to do… otherwise you’ll lose to any class, with any build.

vincecontix.1264:

Condition memser is already strong old video of mine non pu condition mesmer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PLs0cReY9A I was running no pu coz these thiefs where complaining about it. Run pu condition mesmer I can beat people with my eyes closed. It to rewarding for the effort put into playing it and should not be buff or made meta people think warrior is faceroll pu condition mesmer is worse.

Hmmm… just a question… was everyone you’ve fought with condi-Mesmer as bad as that first Thief in the video?

Kontrolle.3514:

insanemaniac.2456:

oh right, and now for what i really wanted to say:
pu builds exist to distract you while you kill yourself. if a mesmer has pu and you died to him, you let him kill you. it isnt the pu trash that can actually kill you on their own without your help, its the phant or shatter variants, and those are the ones you should be afraid of.

but mesmers are terribad are chasing.

I have some news for you, there are alot situations in this game where you dont want to run away because you will loose a point/camp…..

first, this does not apply to spvp at all
second, you can cap a camp with a mesmer chasing you cuz he has to use stealth to survive your pressure and the camp is large enough that you have enough space to force him/his clones to chase you

Kontrolle.3514:

no its not because the crowd of awesome ubercool engis since day 1 like me are playing rifle end of discussion.

Ahhh, but that is your choice. To say no we cannot is inaccurate, because we have the option to do so.

Personally I have had little difficulty with PU septer mesmers by sticking to them like glue and using bomb kit, elixir F, and acid bomb. The average PU mesmer in WvW is not very mobile.

On paper, doesn’t out pistol aa sound a little OP as well? I really don’t know why it’s an ineffective as it is, is it because the short bleed duration? If two skills apply the same number of conditions with the same duration will they always be guaranteed to hit for the same amount of damage?

Ameno.6813:

On paper, doesn’t out pistol aa sound a little OP as well? I really don’t know why it’s an ineffective as it is, is it because the short bleed duration? If two skills apply the same number of conditions with the same duration will they always be guaranteed to hit for the same amount of damage?

well the big issue is the clones will also stack torment and when traited bleeds aswell and most mesmers will trait for clones on dodge making spamming out scepter clones trivial, alone the clones will stack up 5+ torment (with a bit of condi duration, food anyone?), all the mesmer will have to do to achieve this is dodging, add in the mesmers auto attack and its a whole lot of dps for such little work, also torment does 50% more damage then bleeds on a moving target, so on paper its really on a whole other level compared to an engineers auto attack.

Honestly, I think it’s best to reserve any judgment until we actually see how the changes work in game. People have made huge issues out of other skill changes in the past (stealth for ranger anyone?) which have turned out to be not nearly as worrisome as people made it out to be. This change could potentially buff mesmer’s to ridiculous levels for 1v1’s in WvW but beyond that I don’t think it is going to have a huge impact, as an aside Anet does not balance around 1v1’s in any game mode.

Anton.1769:

<whisper> you can run from that mesmer and he can not chase you

unless he stacks torment which deals more damage when your running away

ukuni.8745:

Anton.1769:

<whisper> you can run from that mesmer and he can not chase you

unless he stacks torment which deals more damage when your running away

Start running early.

Sagat.3285:

ukuni.8745:

Anton.1769:

<whisper> you can run from that mesmer and he can not chase you

unless he stacks torment which deals more damage when your running away

Start running early.

just like when you see a necro.

on a serious note, mesmers are much more popular the necros for roaming and I’d really rather not be running from fights more then I currently have to when I go roaming.

Now we just need Mesmers to start dressing like Agents in the Matrix, at least then you can play out a movie scene in your head while you flee for your life. /endsarcasm

ukuni.8745:

Sagat.3285:

ukuni.8745:

Anton.1769:

<whisper> you can run from that mesmer and he can not chase you

unless he stacks torment which deals more damage when your running away

Start running early.

just like when you see a necro.

on a serious note, mesmers are much more popular the necros for roaming and I’d really rather not be running from fights more then I currently have to when I go roaming.

Necro skill bar is coming,conditions necros are not rare. Ask your self do you build ob what you like or to counter condi mesmer?